Oil Fouled Spark Plugs On Only Rear 4 Cylinders SBC (6,8,5,7)? [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: Oil Fouled Spark Plugs On Only Rear 4 Cylinders SBC (6,8,5,7)?


ChevroletR
Mar 27th, 08, 9:43 PM
Alright so here goes...I also posted on ChevyTalk to see what I can come up with. Sorry it's going to be long, but I'm throwing out all the information that I think is related that will just be asked of me anyway. I'll try to split it up.

My 383 is now three years old I built. It has less than 10,000 miles on it. (Not sure exactly because speedometer is a wee bit off) I put in all new internals including SRP Forged Pistons, PBM File fit my own rings The only thing that really isn't new is the Edelbrock Performer RPM intake that I bought used from a friend for dirt cheap. I'm running a Moroso 7 quart oil pan with built in windage tray and scraper with only a M-55 non-high volume oil pump and a really expensive (ouch) Milodon dipstick. My Monte has power brakes with an AC Delco master cylinder that's about 1 1/2 years old. I did most of my own head work including a three-angle valve job at school, port matching, (pockets were already ported) cut my valve spring seats for larger springs, and set my own valve spring height. The heads had new bronze valve guides installed by a very reputable machine shop, who also did all the machine work to my block (bore, splayed caps, line-bored, decked, freeze plugs, cam bearings, balancing, etc) The valve seals I'm using are ones he recommended because he said the posi-lock ones that I bought will actually keep my valves too dry.

The problem I'm having is that when I pulled my plugs for the first time after maybe 1000 (maybe more, maybe less) miles, only the rear four plugs were severely oil fouled! (Cylinders 5, 6, 7 and 8) I'm talking crusted on with solid oil or whatever it was so the gap of the plug was next to nothing! I showed my teacher and he suggested my vacuum modulator since the vacuum for it comes from the rear of the intake. Sure enough, I checked my trans level when it was hot and it was pretty overfilled which I thought would cause the modulator to suck up trans fluid and burn it. So I drained what I could from the hole of the vacuum modulator and the trans fluid level is where it should be now. I even bought a new B&M modulator just to make sure my old one wasn't bad. I changed the plugs and along I went.
I was also having some oil pan leaking issues at the time so I thought that was a cause for some oil loss. After I took care of the oil pan leaking, I still noticed the rear four spark plugs were getting fouled, but not as bad, and it was still using some oil...and still is to this day. I figured the spark plugs were getting fouled still because of maybe some residual trans fluid in lines...I don't know! I probably add about 1/2 quart every couple hundred miles. Which is a shame because I'm running 10w-40 AMSOIL! And we all know that's not cheap.
The spark plug fouling is much better, still barely a little evidence of oil contamination. Still using oil though. When I was home for spring break I put a vacuum gauge on it and it has about 15'' at idle and doesn't flutter around like any mechanical issue. I would think vacuum is a good sign of cylinder seal. I know, I should have checked compression too, and leak down, but I didn't have the time and now I'm back up here at school and won't be able to check it again until May.

What I was wondering was has anybody seen a cracked intake or intake gasket issue where it could suck up oil? If so, would the vacuum tell me this or would the oil be a thick liquid seal? I port-matched my heads and might of made the gap between ports a little thin, is there any possibility of ingesting oil there?
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/383Assy020-1.jpg
Now that I went through Airflow class, I think about the way a dual plane intake is setup...One half goes to cylinders 1,4,7, and 6 and the other half goes to cylinders 2,3,5, and 8. If you don't believe it, this may help:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/PerformerRPM-1.jpg
Therefore how could the manifold suck up trans fluid or brake fluid (a leaky rear seal in the master cylinder into the power booster) and only foul spark plugs 5, 6, 7, and 8??? I don't think that would be an issue...
I also installed this fancy dipstick from Milodon when I built my engine: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autof...
and it never came with any type of oil level indicator mark! It's been so long that I don't remember how I marked it exactly if I just put it back to back with the original dipstick and marked it (which doesn't quite ring a bell because chances are they aren't the exact same lengths) But then again I don't think I removed the old dipstick and put the new one in while there was oil in the pan and marked where it was from looking at the one I pulled out because I'm pretty sure I installed it while the block was still on the stand (cause it was a pain in the a$$ to get in). So like I said, I'm not sure what exactly I used to reference my mark, but is it possible that I'm just putting too much oil in it and it's burning it? I know I can probably check this by draining the oil and filling it up, but even though the oil pan I have is a 7 quart, does that mean that it should hold 7-7 1/2 quarts of oil with filter? I don't know how much I initially put in, but it was around 7.

I'm sure there's a lot more I can add to this that I can't think of right now and there's a lot of checks I should be doing (compression/leak down/tearing the intake off) but the car is 650 miles away and I won't see it until May...just trying to get some feedback right now and things I can try in the future when I DO have the time and access to do it.

I know it's hard for anybody to tell me answers, because of my lack of information and so much is going on here, but I mainly wanted to get as many things to check as possible and if anybody has seen/heard/experienced this.

Wow...that's really long. Thank you all in advance

GOSFAST
Mar 27th, 08, 10:10 PM
Hi Ryan, just a "shot-in the dark" here, but is there any chance the oil is going down the rocker studs and directly into the runners?

It appears from the photo there is no residual sealer on any of the stud mount holes!

Check and see if they protrude into the runners or if they're "blind" holes. If they do protrude this MAY be your issue! The intakes do normally go through!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I placed that reply there because I recently had the opportunity to "examine" a set of BB head's today with the customer present (I realize you are working with a SB) and you'd be surprised the amount of oil contained in the bottoms of the stud holes that are blind. They were actually "filled" to the bottom thread on the studs! There are 2 on each factory BB head that protrude and I can only imagine this customer had a similar situation with the "open" holes into the runners! On these particular cast iron BB's it would show up on the plugs from cylinder number's 1,5,4, and 8! His is also an "oil-burner", but he has many more issues than yours!

Dave427
Mar 28th, 08, 12:29 AM
Sounds like you might have a vacuum leak, intake manifold sucking oil from the lifter gallery. Was there oil in the intake ports? I would check to see if your intake is flat across the intake to head sealing surfaces.
'
Dave

ChevroletR
Mar 28th, 08, 1:23 AM
It appears from the photo there is no residual sealer on any of the stud mount holes!

Thanks for the things to check! That picture of one of the heads after it was taken to the machine shop for valve guides so they cleaned it all up nice and purdy. I believe I did use ARP thread sealant in the stud holes...I used 7/16'' studs instead of 3/8''. I think some of those go into coolant too...that's why I did it. I did the port matching on those heads myself and I'm pretty sure they don't go into the runner. It's been so long though. Thanks for that.

As for the intake, I thought about some runner issue, but again, that's weird that its the four rear cylinders ONLY on my dual-plane manifold, you know? The uneven or warped intake surface is definately something I should look into though. After you port something, there's always burrs on the edges and I'm pretty sure I got rid of those...but maybe I went a little too crazy. That also makes me think back that when I did the port matching, the carbide bit slipped out a few times and made some trails on the intake and heads...wasn't enough that I thought I should worry about though at the time...

racecar100
Mar 28th, 08, 10:05 AM
No Sealer on the intake rocker Studs will leak oil into the cyl.

badrad
Mar 28th, 08, 12:05 PM
No Sealer on the intake rocker Studs will leak oil into the cyl.

I never would have thought of this and am dealing with it. (heads were assembled when I bought them)

ChevroletR
Mar 28th, 08, 2:36 PM
How is that? Do they protrude though the intake runners? I didn't see anything while I was porting. Regardless, I'm 99% certain I used ARP thread sealer on the rocker stud threads into the heads in clean holes.

ChevroletR
Mar 28th, 08, 2:39 PM
I did find this post on a Camaro forum:

"The bottom of the stud isn't really entering into port. When porting, a person will 'break through' exposing the bottom of the(otherwise blind) threaded hole the stud is screwed into."

When porting, I didn't go any deeper than 2'' into the ports

Dave427
Mar 28th, 08, 10:01 PM
I used "The Right Stuff" by permatex on my intake gaskets. I ran a bead around the water jackets and a smear around the intake runners.

Dave

zeke67
Mar 28th, 08, 10:23 PM
I am thinking intake gaskets are leaking. You've ruled out the trans modulator by replacing parts and also by following your intake runners' path. I think if you yank the intake, you'll see if there are oil tracks from the intake. It could also come from intake manifold bolts, I've seen these wick oil up the threads.

Your used intake could have been warped by the last owner not torquing it correctly. Unlikely that your port-matching has made the intake wall between runners too thin.

pdq67
Mar 29th, 08, 11:25 AM
He, He!!

I use good old MESSY, Permatex, "Indianhead Shellac Gasket Cement" for darn near everything!

Stuff flat WORKS!

Who was the guy that said, "You use it, put it away, the phone rings, you answer it and you have the dammed messy stuff on your ear!!

He, He!!

BUT IT WORKS FOR ME!! he, He!!

pdq67

7521
Apr 19th, 08, 12:41 AM
Is the PCV valve connected at the rear of the carb? I changed a cam and intake not long ago only to discover I was fouling plugs, and using oil. After changing the intake gaskets, and going over the intake for cracks it turned out the new cam was making more vacuum than the PCV valve could handle and it was allowing oil past the valve and into the intake then the cylinders. This was not the fault of a bad valve. I tried two new PCV valves with the same results. The valve covers have oil baffles, by the way. Removing the PCV and installing a breather on one of the valve covers with a hose routed to the air cleaner was the cure. No more fouled plugs. Oil consumption went away, and the engine smoke that had plagued me went away too. Try plugging off the PCV first. Its fast, easy and won't hurt the motor to try it.

ChevroletR
Apr 19th, 08, 4:37 PM
Hmm, that's crazy and a first I've heard of. My PCV is on the front of the carb though so I'm not sure how the oil would make its way back to the rear cylinders. Good thing to check though. Thanks

Schurkey
Apr 19th, 08, 6:38 PM
1. The trans modulator will not pull fluid out of the trans even if the trans is overfilled. The only way trans fluid can get past the modulator is if the rubber diaphragm is ruptured.

2. Trans fluid coming up the modulator vacuum tube and into that port of the manifold would "mostly" burn in #8 cylinder, some might get to #5, but it can't get to 6 or 7.

3. Oil coming down past the rocker studs is possible, but it wouldn't be the first thing I look at.

4. Oil coming past the intake gasket is VERY possible; especially if the manifold doesn't sit "all the way down" at the back because there's interference at the back of the manifold--sometimes because the rubber end seal keeps the manifold up too high after the block deck, cylinder head deck, and manifold have been remachined.

5. What do you have for intake valve stem seals? Are you sure they're properly installed?

6. If you have to disable the PCV to solve an oil-burning issue--you have bigger problems than just the PCV. Millions and millions of cars for the last 45 years have had PCV systems that didn't burn oil.

ChevroletR
Jun 23rd, 08, 8:46 PM
Well here's the latest...before I could do a compression check or anything, my buddie took the cam out while I'm still 600 miles away from the car. I asked him to pay close attention to the intake gaskets when he took them off and he said they were covered in oil. I figured this when I was home for a week and took each intake bolt out at a time and cleaned them off and thread sealed them again since oil was puddling on the top of my intake around each bolt hole. When I went to go tighten the intake, a little oil from the intake gaskets seeped up and out from between the itake and heads.

For some reason, my intake bolts don't stay tight. What do you guys do to keep them tight and keep them sealed from oil in the galley at the same time?

Also, along with a new cam and lifters, etc; I ordered Fel-Pro's intake gaskets made for aluminum intakes since I was running stock replacements before: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FPP%2D1256&autoview=sku
I also ordered Edelbrock's Gasgacinch: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D9300&N=700+115&autoview=sku
This also says it's for intake sealing surfaces but I still want to use a thin film of silicon around the coolant crossovers.

Wish me luck and please send more advice! Thanks

ChevroletR
Jul 9th, 08, 9:27 PM
Well I ended up needing a small base circle cam so I didn't finish my roller cam swap. HOWEVER, I did find some things out regarding this issue.

My oil drainback holes are lined up properly with the head gasket and the block.

As I said, the intake gaskets WERE soaked in oil and the intake bolts always came loose. When I bolt the intake down, I'm planning on using a thin film of silicone on the intake gaskets and using blue Lock-tite on the bolts. The picture of the gaskets below have been wiped off.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/IMG_1014.jpg

Below is a picture of the fitment of my intake on my heads. I made a mistake though and didn't use the intake gaskets as Buzzard (Chuck) suggested. I could only fit about a .008-.010'' feeler gauge at the ends, which I'm sure the gasket is good to take care of and I'll be using Fel-Pro's intake gasket MADE for aluminum intakes instead of the stockers.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/IMG_1017-1.jpghttp://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/IMG_1020-1.jpg
The intake ports looked mostly dry...except for the one below
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/CopyofIMG_1001.jpg
The intake runners in the heads
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/CopyofIMG_1005.jpghttp://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/CopyofIMG_1007.jpghttp://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/IMG_1008.jpg
As you can see, my intake valves were pretty wet with oil, which could also be valve seals. In the middle picture, it looks like the oil started coming in at the middle of the runner...

I noticed a few of the ports, there was signs of oil around where the rocker studs pertrude. I pulled some rocker studs and it looked that the ARP thread sealer I used three years ago was barely there on some studs.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/CopyofIMG_0999.jpg
I pulled ALL the rocker studs and applied thread sealer TAPE.

On the intake, around the exhaust crossover, it looked a little wet with oil
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/ChevroletR/70%20Monte/CopyofIMG_1002.jpg

I don't have a straightedge, but I used an old pushrod to check for intake flatness and I couldn't see any light under neath when I rolled it across the gasket surface. I don't think the front and rear intake bolts are bottoming out because I would think it would leak coolant. I guess I can put it back together with a few improvements mentioned and see if it's still using oil...if so then maybe I need to replace 3 year old valve seals...unfortuantely.

Thought these pictures might be a little help and may answer some questions for people. Any more help/advice/ideas are still appreciated! Thanks again