Any opions on using a cam button? If so, is the needle worth the difference?

use a button, the needle bearing or roller type is not necessary and just another part that could fail and send shrapnel into your motor.

Thanks Tom. That's what I thought, but wanted reassurance.

What kind of cam are we talking about ??
Be weary of using one with a hydraulic cam, I made that mistake, & it bangs on the timing cover, sounds like a friggen cowbell!!

I really don't know why I put it in - seemed like a good idea at the time graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/clonk.gif

I just ordered a Crane 272 Energizer Hydro. I ordered the button, but if it doesn't work for hydro's, I won't use it. I was wondering how it would affect the timing cover????

CTrain22,
cam buttoms are not needed with flat tappet cams [hydro or solid] the cam lobes are ground on a VERY slight taper that causes the lifters to rotate AND, causes the cam gear to run against the thrust surface of the block. Roller cams are not ground on a taper so a button [or thrust retainer plate] is used on them. You might notice that the later model roller cam engines have a retainer behind the cam gear.
Larry Woodfin
Crate Racer

Ctrain, The cam button will take up all of the room between the cam & the timing cover. When the cam walks front to back SLIGHTLY the button taps the front of the timing cover. I guess you could use one if you shimmed it up, but I wish Ida never put it in in the first place..

Now I gotta tear it out - just more work graemlins/clonk.gif

have you read the info on the isky site about cam walk if your lifter bores are not perfect they can litreally screw your cam out. the butons are used to keep your cam from walking far and possible damaging the lifters or lobes.

I'd use one if it is a 454. I have heard that they are more prone to cam walk than other BBC's. A friend of mine ate up several flat tappet cams in a 454 due to cam walk until he installed a cam button. I also heard the same thing from other engine builders in the area.

Just my 2 cents.

OK, I've been meaning to ask this same question about my hydraulic cam for my 454.
What's the bottom line guys. Button or no button ?
:confused:

How about in a 396 - Do you think I should leave mine in & deal with the noise ??
:confused:
Man, that thing really thumps the timing cover...

Someone else said it before and it is for sure the reason you do not need it. The Cam lobes on non roller cams are slanted in a way that the cam is pushing rearward just a tad. Lobe is shorter in the front then the rear. Get an old cam out and you cam you may be able to measure that difference from front to back of any lobe.

ssal396; I have a cam button behind the cover in my 454 and you would never know that it was there. You probably have too much clearance between your button and cover. Mine is the roller type so now mc71454 has me obsessing about bearing failure :eek:

Originally posted by Umass:
have you read the info on the isky site about cam walk if your lifter bores are not perfect they can litreally screw your cam out. the butons are used to keep your cam from walking far and possible damaging the lifters or lobes. Umass,
They are only referring to a roller in the tech article.
My opinion is a cam button in any Chevrolet flat tappet is about useless but if it makes you feel better put it in.
The taper of the lobes pulls the cam into the block as does the cut of the dist/oil pump drive gear. ;)

:confused: graemlins/sad.gif

John,
I do not feel it is necessary but again, if it makes you feel better put it in.
It will not hurt anything unless of course it is a needle bearing one & it decides to come apart.
There are probably certain conditions in which the cam could move foward slightly but if in fact it moved by much the chain would eat the front cover as there is not a ton of room in there & I cannot remember ever taking a Chevy apart that showed sigs of the chain hitting under any normal running conditions.

I didn't mean to give anybody anxiety about it...Sorry about that :(

BUT I have seen 1 and know of another one where the needle bearings got loose. Not saying it will happen, but it has.

So, It is just that why not take the "KISS" approach and minimize parts that could fail which do not add any performance gain..

this is especially important to me in that I drive mine all over and to and from the track.

I have used a cam button on a flat tappet and never had any banging. The timing cover was adjusted tighter a few 1000ths with a BFH and a block of wood to make sure the cam endplay was no more than .005" if My memory serves me right.

I agree that technically it is not necessary with a flat tappet but as wolfman said it won't hurt anything.

Also, you gotta check out Mike's Pets on his website..

I've used cam buttons on flat tappet smallblocks in the past with no problems, these were the solid alluminum type-non roller. I can see them as being a benifit if the lifter bores are slightly off.

Well ctrain22, sounds like a toss-up. I have a 454 with a hydraulic cam and will pass on the button for now, unless someone chimes in and convinces me otherwise.
Thanks for the info guys graemlins/waving.gif

I am running the compcams roller button, and have had no problems with it.

What if you have a 1 piece solid aluminum timing cover? You can't put a button underneath them. I have one and I want to install one on my engine, but there is absolutely no clearance! The cover itself is very stout, and has no clearance for the button. Is this made to use without a button? There is absolutely no way that one will go in. I do have a solid roller camshaft. Any takers on this one?? graemlins/clonk.gif

mc71454; I'm not really stressing :D . If it blows up I'll build it bigger. I don't care. It's just my toy, I don't have to rely on the car and I don't drive it that much. I run a healthy hyd. roller, that's why I use the button. I did the same as you stated, tweaked the stock cover for about .005 clearance. You would never know that it's there.

Thank you everyone for all the input and advice. I think I will skip the button. I like the "kiss" theory. I never used one before, never had a problem but wondered. Anyway....anyone want to buy a cam button. Never used???????lol

How are you guys "tweaking" the timing cover,how do you measure the space between the button & the cover with the cover on?? :confused:

Also, do you think I could tweak mine with the whole thing assembled? Or is that just looking for trouble?

I'm running a roller bearing type button in my SB with a Milodon single idler gear drive.The aluminum cover has a plate that comes off for cam timing adjustments,& thats's what the end of the button touches(if it really does).I set it all up on a stand with the rear cam plug removed,& the front cover installed with gasket.Used a dial indicator on the back of the cam to set travel.It took awhile with a few shims but i ended up with .002-.003 front-to-rear cam movement,& no noises.I keep telling myself that the cam turns twice as *slow* as the crank,& that the little bearing will never fail.
:rolleyes:

everyone needs a BFH every now and then for those "fine adjustments".good one,mc71454! :D

I measured mine with the intake off and a dial indicator of the side of a lobe..worked just fine

This may be a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway... Do I need to be concerned about keeping the cam too far to the back of the engine?? What limits the travel to the back is it just the engagement of the distributer gear?? With that said, does the distributer need to be pulled or left in place to adjust end play in the cam??

I'm thinking of putting a pry bar between the water pump & the timing cover & pressing it into submission. Do you guys think this would a good plan of attack?? Or would I be farther ahead by just pulling the button out of there.

I have just been trying to avoid messing with the oil pan/timing cover seal. Not to mention that the damper was kind of a beoch to install with it on the stand, much less in the car..

Oh what to do, all of these stupid things just drive me to drink! graemlins/beers.gif

Headerfire, I have had a couple of those needle bearing type cam buttons come apart, and seen the results of quite a few others, luckily no major damage to anyone so far, just scared up timing covers. For now on I only use the nylon ones.

ssal396, Yep pull the distributer out so you can get access to the cam. Never done it like this with valve train in, but I'd give it a try before pulling the intake. You may have a hard time bending in the timing cover to close up the clearance, but you can try. I really don't understand why the cam would be walking forward into the cover and making the noise... are you sure?? Did you take a stethoscope and listen at the cover behind the water pump. I'm afraid if this is really happening, something is not right and the cam buttom is not the real problem. Does you timing jump around with a light? Is this a hydraulic lifter or solid? Pull the distributer and look at the condition of the gear. Is it too high or too low? With it out you may be able to move the cam back and forth using the big screw drive to check approx clearance between cover and gear to front of block. Is the a single roller, or double chain?

Paul, I am 99% certan its the cam. When the enging is running you can put your finger on the timing cover and you can feel it hitting, also the noise goes away. I will pull the dist as soon as I get the chance, what exactly am i looking for,unusual wear??

Does anybody have any thoughts on why the cam is walking?? Its a comp cams hydro flat tappet cam with a comp double roller timing chain. BTW the tec guy at comp cams didnt seem to suprised that it was hitting (for what its worth)the only thing he told me is,"you dont need to use a button with that cam"..

One more note, I dont remember it doing it during the cam breakin.What could have changed??

The more I read about this subject, the more it looks like I may have more wrong than that cam button... :confused:

Before you pull the distributer. Pull the valves covers (one at a time) take precautions for oil and run the engine at idle. Make sure all the push rods are turning. Remember the tilt on the cam lobs are what keep the cam in the engine. If she is trying to thrust the cam forward, there has to be a reason. Don't forget to put a timing light on it and see if it's jumping around...

Originally posted by LYK2ROC:
What if you have a 1 piece solid aluminum timing cover? You can't put a button underneath them. I have one and I want to install one on my engine, but there is absolutely no clearance! The cover itself is very stout, and has no clearance for the button. Is this made to use without a button? There is absolutely no way that one will go in. I do have a solid roller camshaft. Any takers on this one?? graemlins/clonk.gif ===
With any roller cam you must hqve a button or a retainer plate.
No debate here, you MUST CONTROL THE CAM END PLAY.
With an aluminium cover you just shorten the back of the needle bearng thrust button or the front of the Nylon button. You cannot use an aluminium button with an aluminium cover.

Man I learn something here everyday. When I built my 427 some 12 years ago I installed a solid roller cam, after a few hundred miles a lifter promptly broke. I then installed a Hyd. flat tappet cam and reused the needle bearing cam button. After the motor is good and warmed up it sometimes makes a mystery noise at idle that I haven't been able to track down. I'll just bet that cam button is bouncing off the timing cover, not to mention the possibility of the thing coming apart. The cam button will go!!!!! ASAP

Thanks Guys.
Harlan.

Don't you have to use a torrington bearing behind the cam gear if you use a nylon button on a non roller engine? that is what i have on my 454 that i built, the cam gear was machined on the back to accept a torrington needle bearing and i use a nylon button not a roller. i am using a solid flat tappet

No you don't have to use a torrington unless the gear is designed for it but it is a good idea, it takes the thrust load off the front of the block.
And again in case I didn't say this clearly enough,,,I did not say to not run a button.
My opinion is if you want to run a button with a flat tappet cam run it.
I just do not feel it does anything to either add or detract from the way a flat tappet cam works but if it makes you sleep better put one in.
In a Chevy if the cam has enough taper ground into the lobes & you are running a wet sump oil pump the cam is not going anywhere.
When is the last time you pulled a front cover off a Chevy V8 & found evidence of the chain rubbing on the cover??
Unless something else was wrong or it broke :D

Mike,
What would be the determining factor in running a Torrington or a wear plate behind the cam gear? Wouldn't a flat tappet cam put a greater stress on the front cam thrust surface as compared to a roller? I have been told to do this both ways. It would seem to me that as long as the roller is limited in travel with a cam button, it should have very little pressure in either direction.

Mike A few have said they run a button and have issues with it hitting into the cover. I guessed that may be the cam lobe issue. As far as my little understand goes the cam lobe design should primarily have the job of making sure that doesn't happen. Could there be an issue with the oil pump or distributer that pops it forward??? Is there anything else that could cause that? :D

Mike,
What would be the determining factor in running a Torrington or a wear plate behind the cam gear? Wouldn't a flat tappet cam put a greater stress on the front cam thrust surface as compared to a roller? I have been told to do this both ways. It would seem to me that as long as the roller is limited in travel with a cam button, it should have very little pressure in either direction.

=
I agree.
With a roller I suppose the bronze wear plate is safer as it cannot come apart but I have never had a torrington come apart.
There is still a little thrust on the front of the block from the distributor/oil pump drive, more with a hi pressure/hi voluum pump but not as much.
I have no problem running either but I normally run the torrington as it comes with the timing sets I use.
===

Mike A few have said they run a button and have issues with it hitting into the cover. I guessed that may be the cam lobe issue. As far as my little understand goes the cam lobe design should primarily have the job of making sure that doesn't happen. Could there be an issue with the oil pump or distributer that pops it forward??? Is there anything else that could cause that?

Don't know unless it is the needle bearing type & is just close enough to the cover that it's moving or "bouncing" enough to cause noise.
I am sure their are conditions that would cause the cam to move forward slightly but I can't tell you what they might be.
The dist/oil pump gear is cut in a direction that pulls the cam in.
When I run a thrust I normally set it between .002-.005
My guess as far as the cam running forward slightly & causing a rattle would be related to the chain & gears not being perfect or some sort of "noise" in the timing set,, run out of cam gear etc.
Maybe Harold will stop by I shed some light on this graemlins/waving.gif

Does any of this information I've read on these 3 pages change if you are running a gear drive? Mine looks like a Pete Jackson or an Edelbrock. It came with a button but don't want to use it if it's not a neccesity. I'm running an isky flat tappet solid cam. Thanks, and a very informative thread.

Purs, too add on to this good thread. I was running a Pete Jackson dual idler on my old 454 set up with a 620 lunati FT for a while. And yes I ran the cam button on it. IT did have wear marks on the back on my timing cover from the cam button walking back forth touching the cover. I believe the strait cut gears did'nt help much on keeping the cam from walking forward. I also used the brass bearing and the torrington roller bearing and havent had a problem with that set up. I have put about 6000 or more miles on my old set up a year. I like driving it more than racing it.

My new setup has UD 680 solid roller with a cloyeds timing chain and torrington roller bearing and a roller timing button. I have put about 100 street miles on it now and I don't seem to have any timing problems at any rpm shooting it with the timing light. I would recommend a cam button, roller or non roller just for cheap insurance. ;) You can check myset up in my signature.

Just since we are re-hashing an old topic, I NOW know why that button was hiting the cover. The cam is wiped out! The only thing I will say about the button is, that if it wasn't in there, I would have never known that the cam was bad because the engine ran fine(it was an exhaust lobe that I lost)I really don't know how long I would have ran that engine before there would have been any simptoms of the bad cam. For that reason ONLY I am considering putting one in when I put it togather AGAIN. graemlins/waving.gif

I would think improper timing gear alignment would have an influence on cam walk. I always check this with a straight edge when installing the crank gear. If a crank gear was not fully installed I think it would want to pull the cam forward, maybe this is the intermiten sound some are hearing? I've run the solid aluminum and roller buttons on mild hydraulic flat tappet cams without any problems or noise.

I would think improper timing gear alignment would have an influence on cam walk. I always check this with a straight edge when installing the crank gear. If a crank gear was not fully installed I think it would want to pull the cam forward Can you explain how you check the installation with a streight edge, & do you think that would cause a cam lobe to go flat??? I am just trying to figure out why the cam went bad before I put it back together... ;)

With the chain not installed place a straight edge across the face of both gears to make sure they are in alignment, then pull the cam gear back off and install the chain and gear. If the chain is trying to straighten out when the gears are not aligned I'm sure it would pull outwards on the cam, could it cause lobe failure? Probably I guess.

badbob, thanx for the info, I will be sure to check it graemlins/thumbsup.gif