Over the weekend I finished my front suspension upgrades.

Old setup: Global West upper & lower arms, B-body spindles, 750# springs, Varishock QS2 shocks, 1.125 sway bar. Aligned at +4.5 caster, -.5 camber, 1/16" total toe in. Baer C4 PBR brakes.

New setup: Changed to ATS AFX spindles, ATS/SC&C steering arms, SPC upper control arms, C6 PBR's with Hawk HPS pads. Kept the springs, shocks, and lower arms.

Mark at SC&C hooked me up with all the spindle & UCA goodies and I got the C6 calipers, abutments, and hoses from Tobin at Kore3. I got new Baer Eradispeed rotors to match my rear rotors from TBYRNE just before they closed shop... pity because his price was awesome, over $200 cheaper than Jeg's or anyone else (Baer uses minimum advertised price I believe.) His price on the Hawk HPS pads was $35 cheaper than Summit-- but they were on backorder when he closed and I had to get them from Summit.

1st surprise, which I knew would be close anyways based on the templates at Kore3: The C6 calipers had less than .050" of clearance to the rear of my wheels, so I bought some machined .250" wheel spacers. The nice thing is that the C5/C6 hubs have a long enough register that even with the .250" spacers there is still .240" left to register into the center of the wheel.

2nd surprise: I expected the car to sit about 1/8" higher with the ATS spindles compared to the B-body spindles... and the car ended up 5/8" lower. Looks good but now I need to drop the back to match as there is too much rake for my tastes. There is now very slight front inner wheelwell rubbing over bumps in a turn. I may end up raising the front back up as I can no longer get the floorjack under the crossmember unless I drive it up on blocks first.

I aligned it myself to +5.6 caster, -.75 camber, and 1/16 total toe in. I did not feel like paying $150 for an SPC Fastrax or $200 for a SmartCamber setup so using some aluminum I already had I fabricated my own wheel jig that holds my current Mitutoyo digital level. Works great, it checked out perfectly to a digital $350 Longacre gauge I also borrowed from a friend for verification. I borrowed some turnplates from a friend and checked thrust angle & toe using the tried and true stringline method. I love the SPC upper arms-- nice and easy to make very small adjustments. I won't miss those shims one bit! It took a while to do my own alignment but I probably took much more care than taking it to a shop. I put 6500 180gr .40 caliber bullets in the drivers seat to simulate my weight while doing the alignment... I now wish I had taken a picture of that. :p

Having put a lot of miles on my B-body setup over the last 7 years or so the changes in driving were easily noticed. The steering ratio is quicker and noticeably so. Bumpsteer is substantially reduced. My B-body setup never had much "in use" bumpsteer with the 700# springs and 1.125" sway bar-- the front suspension just didn't move much and thus I did not get excessive bumpsteer, but over the same bumpy turns at my usual cornering speed I did notice a slight improvement in the darting/skittering of the front end over the mid-corner bumps... a nice improvement and more than enough to feel. If I was still running my old softer springs that allowed more suspension movement the improvement would have been even more noticeable.

Next up on the list is changing to a smaller sway bar. Without the bumpsteer issue I have no qualms about letting the front roll a bit more by dropping to a 15/16" bar-- it should turn in better and take out some understeer. I may even try dropping to 650# or 600# springs.

Summary... I'm a happy camper so far. I'm going to keep an eye on tire wear and may put in more negative camber. I was feathering the outside edges of my front tires with the B-body spindles and alignement, hoping the added caster & camber with the new alignment takes care of it.

I'm still on the fence if I should drop the back of the car a little to match the new front ride height or raise the front back up 5/8" to where it used to be. I need to drive to a few of my typical spots and do a "scrape test." If it scrapes I'll raise it back up.

Thanks for the info.

What rate are you running in the rear? What size bar?

I'm excited about my 600# springs, Varishock QS1, 1" bar, SPC upper arm upgrade for the front this past winter. It will be on the road in a month.

What rate are you running in the rear? What size bar?

I'm excited about my 600# springs, Varishock QS1, 1" bar, SPC upper arm upgrade for the front this past winter. It will be on the road in a month.

I'm running Hyperco 5" x 11" 200# rear springs, no rear bar for now simply because I do not like the factory rear bar arrangement. With a rear bar I'd probably run 175# rear springs.

I'm working on how to fit a splined style rear bar on the frame and use drop links to connect to the axle.

I'd like to run a splined swaybar up front too but the arms would have to be "creatively shaped" to clear the steering linkage.

The ride quality is surprisingly good with the 700/200# spring combo with just a bit of harshness over bumps in the front-- but I attribute a lot of the harshness to the 1.125" front bar being too much on top of the 750# springs and "binding" up the front end more than necessary.

Next up is buying another pair of QS2 Varishocks for the rear. I'm going to get them shorter than stock so the 11" springs don't fall out under full droop. :)

Troy, there's a much easier way to keep the springs in where they need to be... 2" O.D. washers fit right inside the spring cup from the bottom side. Use a 3" long plate on the top side with a hole in the middle, and run a bolt through to with the spring pigtail and pocket sandwiched in between.

$5 worth of hardware is a lot cheaper than new shocks... but if you insist on new shocks, I got dibs on your old ones. ;) :D

Troy, there's a much easier way to keep the springs in where they need to be... 2" O.D. washers fit right inside the spring cup from the bottom side. Use a 3" long plate on the top side with a hole in the middle, and run a bolt through to with the spring pigtail and pocket sandwiched in between.

$5 worth of hardware is a lot cheaper than new shocks... but if you insist on new shocks, I got dibs on your old ones. ;) :D

I currently have the old Edelbrock IAS on the back... I haven't bought the rear QS2's yet. I only have the front Varishocks at the moment. When I order the rear shocks they will be just short enough to keep a little preload on 11" springs. No sense in having shocks longer than the sprung droop travel, and I don't forsee running anything other than 11" springs in the future.

I see... Just thought I'd throw that out there if you were replacing expensive shocks with other expensive shocks for that reason alone. :o

Where did you get your wheel-spacers? I can't find any machined ones that don't require 1/2" or bigger studs. I'm currently running cheap cast-aluminum ones from Cragar, and obviously not real confident in taking serious corners with them on there. :clonk:

I see... Just thought I'd throw that out there if you were replacing expensive shocks with other expensive shocks for that reason alone. :o

LMAO! I've been known to do dumb things but that would take the cake! :p


Where did you get your wheel-spacers? I can't find any machined ones that don't require 1/2" or bigger studs. I'm currently running cheap cast-aluminum ones from Cragar, and obviously not real confident in taking serious corners with them on there. :clonk:

I don't blame you. Years ago I was helping a friend work on his Camaro and it had Mr. Gasket die cast spacers... one broke when I was torquing the wheel down. :eek: That's why I absolutely will not run the cheapie diecast spacers on ANYTHING.

I bought the Baer spacers from Jegs, they were $55 or so. The holes in them are big enough for 1/2" lugs and they are drilled for 3 different hole patterns but they also register on the hub. I would prefer if they only had 1 hole pattern in them, but oh well. I was going to make my own out of 1/4" aluminum blanchard ground tooling plate but for $55 I was money and time ahead just buying those.

I'm running Hyperco 5" x 11" 200# rear springs, no rear bar for now simply because I do not like the factory rear bar arrangement. With a rear bar I'd probably run 175# rear springs.

I'll probably run 175# in back with QS1's and no bar. That will have to wait until summer/fall though. Same Hyperco 11" springs with Derek's washer holder thingy idea.:yes:

are you running the adjustable spacers? any pics of the new height? what about pics of the modified tunnel? bodys going to the blaster in the next couple of weeks, and i just ordered the tko from prodigy today, so im ready to start hacking.

that sucks about the wheels, but at least you had the room to move them.

how do you like those pads? wear vs dust vs noise vs braking????

are you running the adjustable spacers? any pics of the new height? what about pics of the modified tunnel? bodys going to the blaster in the next couple of weeks, and i just ordered the tko from prodigy today, so im ready to start hacking.

that sucks about the wheels, but at least you had the room to move them.

how do you like those pads? wear vs dust vs noise vs braking????

I was running the adjustable spacers but not anymore... their ID is not large enough fit the Varishocks over the full travel of the suspension. Both adjusters just slightly rubbed my Varishocks, which are much larger in diameter than stock shocks.

I built new fixed spacers that register on the OD of the spring and the ID of them is the full ID of the spring; no more rubbing. For me to raise the car now would require cutting off the risers from my fixed spacers in the lathe and cutting and welding on new risers... which is why I really want the new ride height to work. What I probably should do is modify the seats I made to accept bolt-on riser sections so I can swap them out easily for ride height changes.

FYI for 68-69 guys, my front wheel arches are now 23 5/8 off the ground with 26" tall tires. I was at 24 1/4" with the B-body spindles.

Modded tunnel pics (now with the finished carpet & seat) are in this thread:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213271

As far as the Hawk HPS pads, I've ran them on my daily driver for a while now and like them. They're fairly light on the dust and bite good, although they are a tad bit soft for the first 4 or 5 dead cold stops until they get some warmth in them. They deal with intermittent high heat quite well but if you subject them to prolonged heat they wear very quickly; otherwise for street driving with the occasional heavy stop they work well and have a good life. Easy on rotors too. No noise to speak of, although my daily driver does squeal them pretty good when stopping in reverse only.

I was running the adjustable spacers but not anymore... their ID is not large enough fit the Varishocks over the full travel of the suspension. Both adjusters just slightly rubbed my Varishocks, which are much larger in diameter than stock shocks.

I haven't installed my Varishocks yet, and knew this may become an issue. Was it rubbing on the threaded section ID, or the neck down where the upper cup and threaded section are welded together? I know that welded portion had the smallest ID. What if the spacer were cut to raise the welded section higher? Would it still rub?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/3389,154_Adjustable-Hidden-Spring-Shim-Extended.html


Specs:
Outside diameter of the top portion of this adjustable spring shim is 4-1/2"
Inside diameter through the middle is 2-15/16"
Inside diameter of the spring seat portion is 3-1/2"
Outside diameter of the spring seat portion is 5"Rubbing on the spring seat portion? Or DIA through the middle? I'm assuming the shock body hits the 2-15/16" through hole?

Good info :)

If anyone is looking for a set of C5 brakes to go along with the spindles:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1977454

Standard Disclaimer: I know nothing about the seller.

They were rubbing on the ID of the threaded portion (2 15/16".) Not much contact, but enough to leave marks on the shock bodies that I had to dress back out with a file. Not good.

They were rubbing on the ID of the threaded portion (2 15/16".) Not much contact, but enough to leave marks on the shock bodies that I had to dress back out with a file. Not good.

Was this with an unmodified spacer? What if an inch were hacked off the top?

Was this with an unmodified spacer? What if an inch were hacked off the top?

They were already cut down.

There just isn't enough clearance in the adjustable spacers to clear the shock over the full travel of the suspension. At full droop to about 1/2 of normal travel the shocks are centered nicely in the spacers and clear, but as the suspension compresses more near ride height and down into normal bump travel range the shock angle changes in relation to the spacer and they start to rub.

Making new spacers was the only quick solution I came up with. The Varishocks are just too large in diameter for the speedway adjustable spacers.

They were already cut down.

There just isn't enough clearance in the adjustable spacers to clear the shock over the full travel of the suspension. At full droop to about 1/2 of normal travel the shocks are centered nicely in the spacers and clear, but as the suspension compresses more near ride height and down into normal bump travel range the shock angle changes in relation to the spacer and they start to rub.

Making new spacers was the only quick solution I came up with. The Varishocks are just too large in diameter for the speedway adjustable spacers.

Care to post a pic of the spacer you made?

I'd like to see your homemade frontend align tool also. I just got my SPC lite uppers installed and have been debating what to do about getting the car aligned while I have been installing my new brakes.
Thanks

Care to post a pic of the spacer you made?

I didn't take pictures prior to installing them and don't want to take them out now to take pictures... but I'll whip up a solid model when I get a free moment and post a screenshot of that so you get an idea.

I'd like to see your homemade frontend align tool also. I just got my SPC lite uppers installed and have been debating what to do about getting the car aligned while I have been installing my new brakes.
Thanks

What I built is functionally similar to the SmartCamber gauge here:

http://www.smartracingproducts.com/alignment.htm

I built mine out of aluminum box tubing and aluminum extrusion. My digital level is mounted vertically however, and 3 socket head cap screws serve to level it. I'll try and post a picture tonight. It's very simple and only took about 2 hours to build, square up, and level. Worked perfect and agreed 100% within the precision of both my level and the LongAcre digital alignment gauge I borrowed (0.1 degrees.)

I'm now working on building a functional copy of the SmartStrings setup. I bought 1" electrical conduit and put grooves in them at 80" apart, then supported them in front of and behind the car on jackstands and ran string between them to establish centerline, thrust angle, and toe. The bad thing is if the car moves or you bump a jackstand you have to resquare the strings to the car. With the conduit/bars supported off the vehicle like the SmartStrings setup if the car moves it's not an issue, in fact you can roll the car back and then foward a bit between toe adjustments to resettle everything and take any slop out.

Troy...I cant to check it out....I wanna ride! Hey can your fancy homemade alinment tool work on Camaro's......

my only experience with the spacers has been when they were unloaded, since my body is still off the frame. what i was seeing though was the spacer cocking off to the side and not being inline with the spring. this caused it to bind on my smaller stock size shocks. i ended up placing some tack welds along the top of the spring to join the "nut" and spring (i kept the spring cool). this kept the spring inline with the spacer and kept it from binding. now i just have to turn the spring and nut to adjust the spacer. like i said, i dont know if this was your problem, but it was worth a shot.

tim

Care to post a pic of the spacer you made?

Here's a quickie screenshot from Solidworks showing what was whipped up.

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/spacer1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/spacer2.jpg

I picked up a 1" F-41 front swaybar today from a friend, going to put it on and see if it cuts down on understeer compared to the 1-1/8" bar. I just need some new polyurethane bushings and new brackets. I'll see how it drives and maybe even drop down to a 7/8".

Troy,

Thanks for posting the info and your detailed comparison. Sure helps a lot more than a "b-body brakes suck!" reply.

Alan

Here's a quickie screenshot from Solidworks showing what was whipped up.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Eswedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/spacer1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/%7Eswedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/spacer2.jpg

I picked up a 1" F-41 front swaybar today from a friend, going to put it on and see if it cuts down on understeer compared to the 1-1/8" bar. I just need some new polyurethane bushings and new brackets. I'll see how it drives and maybe even drop down to a 7/8".


Looks good. What material did you end up using?

I put the 1" sway bar on this morning and went for a ride. A little more body roll now but the car feels much "lighter" in the nose, turns in much quicker, and substantially less understeer. Not quite neutral but very little understeer in a very hard corner-- much less than compared to the 1 1/8" sway bar. It also rides smoother. I may try a 7/8" sway bar next (if I can find one) and see what that does, or might try swapping to 650# springs. For the street, I prefer the suspension set up for slight understeer rather than slight oversteer, makes it much more predictable & safe during sudden avoidance swerves on unfamiliar road surfaces.

Didn't scrape the headers or exhaust on any of the driveways I went into today, so I may just modify the inner fenders to fix the slight rubbing and keep it this low. :hurray:

any pics of the new height?

Here are some updated pictures... and don't give me crap about the crossdrilled rotors. :p I already had Eradispeeds on the back, wanted more to match the front. I have had no bad luck whatsoever with these rotors for heavy street driving, and they look neat. I'd never track them though, that's what the $20 over the GM counter track-n-toss stock rotors are for. :p

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/ats1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/ats2.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/newheight.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/wheelheight.jpg

Troy...I cant to check it out....I wanna ride! Hey can your fancy homemade alinment tool work on Camaro's......

It works on anything with wheels. :p
It does take quite a bit longer than taking it to a shop with an already leveled rack and all the fancy-schmancy laser heads-- but it's just as accurate. Bring over a pile of shims though... I don't have any.

Those spindles suck. :D

I'm glad that you can have an A to B comparison on a car you know well. I guess I'll keep making these things if they are as good as you say they are.

Tyler

Troy

I have the same clearance issue in the front fenders, what do you have in mind for clearancing?

I ended up using spacers (Hotchkis Springs).

Wish I could have used the ATS spindles, but with my TT2's the C5 brakes will not clear, so I had to used Touring Classics C4 hybrid...

Now to put in the shorty headers, pull the spacers, modify the front inner fenders and drop it back down...

I have the same clearance issue in the front fenders, what do you have in mind for clearancing?

Right now I am using the old and very broken original plastic inner fenders that came on the car. Since they are already busted up my current plan is to trim them; starting just outboard of where they bolt to the top of the fenders by the hood hinge I'm going to cut a 12" wide swath out from the hood hinge area all the way out to the wheel lip (i.e. directly over the top of the tire) and then heatform a new piece of ABS plastic to attach to it that stays horizontal all the way out to the edge of the fender (to protect the fender top from inside-out rock dings.) I'll probably also use a heatgun to reshape & reform the factory inner fender a little bit.

I plan on modifying my still in the wrapper steel inner fenders the same way by mocking them up on my NOS front fenders; I'll get them all fixed up and nice and then install them on the car when I paint it. But for now the hacked & added onto plastic inners will work just fine.

The rubbing is very minor (only going over dips/bumps while in a hard turn) but I still don't like tires rubbing on anything they shouldn't be.

Oh Man!!!
You need to attend some events with this machine!!!
The look on peoples faces will be outstanding.
Your average by stander is not going to predict any level of performance from that paint.

Camarillo Airport autocross this April!

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/newheight.jpg

Hi Troy,glad ya like it! I knew you would. The car looks great! I like a butt kicking car with a nice patina. :thumbsup: I think you`ll like a smaller front bar. We recomend it,unless you`re running a rear bar with some really serious rate (that means larger than 1" or configured with bar/frame links). The car should be more neutral and have crisper turn in.
For those who don`t want to have to fab custom spring spacers we`re carrying a new line of SPC Performance cast aluminum helical spring seats in various thicknesses. Just select a thickness half as much as the height increase you want,drop em in the lower A arm and install the springs as usual. They can also be used on the top of the springs and they`re very inexpensive.
You should take Tad up on trying autoX with your car. The Viper guys already get really ticked off when Tad beats up on em (ALL of em!) with his Impala SS, they`ll be double mad if you spank em with a 40 year old Chevelle too. :D Marcus

For those who don`t want to have to fab custom spring spacers we`re carrying a new line of SPC Performance cast aluminum helical spring seats in various thicknesses. Just select a thickness half as much as the height increase you want,drop em in the lower A arm and install the springs as usual. They can also be used on the top of the springs and they`re very inexpensive.


Mark,

I’ll probably order a pair of spacers. Some quick Q’s about them:

Do they come in around 3.75” height?

How does the helix work when using it on top of spring? I would like to have the shock adj. accessible at the bottom.

Thanks.

Troy,

What size are the front wheels? What BS?

I plan to run 17X9.5 wheels (275/40-17 tires up front) with about 6.0" of BS (to tuck the wheel in and account for that 0.25" spacer (plan on running Vintage Wheel V40s)... I have the SC&C Stage2, and I recall mark mentioning that due to the raised upper arm/tall BJ, the wheel might not clear (cleared fine with "stock" spindle/arm)...

I am debating going with the ATS spindle, but I'd really like to know if that would clear (since the "pin" is raised, it should allow more clearance... I hope)...

Troy,

What size are the front wheels? What BS?

I plan to run 17X9.5 wheels (275/40-17 tires up front) with about 6.0" of BS (to tuck the wheel in and account for that 0.25" spacer (plan on running Vintage Wheel V40s)... I have the SC&C Stage2, and I recall mark mentioning that due to the raised upper arm/tall BJ, the wheel might not clear (cleared fine with "stock" spindle/arm)...

I am debating going with the ATS spindle, but I'd really like to know if that would clear (since the "pin" is raised, it should allow more clearance... I hope)...

They're 17 x 9.5, 5.5" backspacing, plus a .250" wheel spacer for caliper clearance. Plenty of room to the SPC arm on the top, I'll try and get a picture for you.

Do you think you could fit another 1/2" of BS (without hitting the upper arm)?

What size tire?

Not sure how this differs on the '69 versus '66... I used the deeper BS to keep the tire away from the outer lip...

I currently have 5.5" BS (picked up used for my '70), so I will be able to mock everything up before ordering wheels (probably years before I get to that point though)...

Thanks for the speedy reply (you can disregard the PM)...;)

GoKou,

Are you running inner fenders?
How close are the side walls to the fender lip when making sharp turns like uturns?