Please educate me on 396/402 big blocks....might be building one soon [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: Please educate me on 396/402 big blocks....might be building one soon


Junkyard Dawg
Jan 5th, 05, 1:33 AM
A neighbor down the street has several 396/402 big blocks sitting in his garage, all needing a rebuild. There is one I picked out which he says he's had checked for cracks and none were found, and he has offered to help me build it and install it in my car.

I know nothing about big blocks other than they're torque monsters so I have several questions to ask.

1. I'd like to push 450 hp/500 tq (or close) at the flywheel. What all will be required to achieve this gain if I stay naturally aspirated w/o nitrous?

2. I've heard 396/402's like oval port heads and not square port heads. Is this so? If so what casting and piston should I use to get a 10.0:1 compression ratio? Or should I go higher on the c.r.?

3. I'd like the power range to run between 2000 and 6500 rpm. Are there any cam kits to run in this range for my desired compression? I'm going to go with a hydraulic cam. I want it to have a hot lope to it while idling.

4. I see Speed Pro makes an engine rebuild kit for the 396. Does anyone make a kit for the 402? Anyone have any experience with this kit? Good? Bad?

5. What size intake/exaust valves should I run with for my desired output?

6. If a .030 396 is a 402, then what is a .030 402?

7. Are the '70 blocks considered 396 or 402? (I know in '71 they were calling them 402)

Sorry this is long but I don't know my big blocks that well. :( I'll probably be asking more questions when the time comes around.

ddeennis
Jan 5th, 05, 2:29 AM
1. 450 hp is pretty easy to get. for myself it has taken 10.5 to 1 comp, 233/239 @ .050 cam, stock '390 closed chambered heads...ported (runners cleaned up of casting flash,3 angle valve job,2.19/1.88 valves ,chambers cleaned up and some light unshrouding of valves)rpm intake,3310-2 holley.

2. yes oval ports are the way to go,kb1600 pistons with closed chammbered heads get you over 10 to 1

3.the delta regrind cam that i got has 233/239 @ .050 with 111 lobe seperation w/1.72 rockers .548/.551 lift very nice rumpy idle, hard puller to 6500 rpms.....power really comes on about 2800 rpms.

4. never bought a "kit" just buy what i need from other sources, i found to be cheaper this way.

5. upgrades to 2.19/1.88 valves from competition products..take outs....have done myself good with proper bowl work and 3 angle valve job.

6. 408

7. just depends on the bore size is all.....some 1970 was the 402 if not all.....

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 6th, 05, 3:21 AM
Wow....so what would it take to make 500 hp from a 402? Cuz that's what I'd really like if at all possible.

This guy I know has a set of 290 casting heads. But I think he's going to give me a set to have some 2.19 valves put in as the ones he has already have I think 2.06's or something like that. I'm not sure what casting heads I'll get. Are there any other castings to look for in terms of performance?

I think I am going to run a Performer RPM intake with a 750 Holley and a high flow fuel pump.

Would it be better to run a dual profile cam with a big block? What are your thoughts of running a cam with a 2500-6500 rpm range?

Dennis I take it the engine you're referring to is the 414 in your Camaro? How did you get it to 414 cubes?

Ron454
Jan 6th, 05, 3:44 AM
Hey JYD,

If it were me, and the block was cheap, I'd bore it to 4.25" and make it a std. bore 427. I did that in the past with a 396 and it worked very well. I believe all 396/402 blocks can bore to 4.25". Hopefully others here can verify this.....or say no way. I had no problems with mine! It was a 2 bolt main eng BTW.
I had a 427 in my first drag car, a 68SS Chevelle. I used the L72 pistons with '990 open chamber heads and a Crower street roller. Small by todays standards. Anyway, with a Victor Jr. and a 800DP Holley, it went mid tens. At 3400lbs and 4.88's etc.
To me, 427's just run dang hard. They have a decent rod to stroke ratio to boot.
Oval heads would also be fine, just get the right ones, and folks here can guide you for sure.

What would be the goals for the car?

Ron

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 6th, 05, 5:16 AM
Well, I'd like to make this an 11 second car. I already have a 12 bolt rear with a 4.10 posi. I've not had the car weighed but it has factory buckets, power steering and power brakes. I removed the heater/ac and all of the duct work.

I don't know if you'd consider the block cheap or not but he's selling me the heads and the bare block for $500. He's had the block checked for cracks and he's had it cleaned but he didn't have it bored.

Right now I'm trying to get a ball park price on building this thing. I plan on sending the heads in for porting and polishing and possibly fitting some bigger valves. I also plan to have the cylinders bored.

I'm going to keep it naturally aspirated. I'm not sure on what pistons, rods, etc. to use. I'd like the cam to have a pretty good but not too radical of a lope to it...something I can still cruise on the streets with. And I want a stall coverter that winds up to like 3k on light launch....you know, the things that tell the guy in the next lane "he's got something.....don't even try and challenge him." ;)

BTW I did not know a 396 could be bored to a 427...what size overbore is that?

Bob West
Jan 6th, 05, 8:54 AM
I got a whole motor,including 781's,power steering pump and brackets,alternator and brackets and HEI for 500.00. All I used was the heads and block,but it was a very good deal.

GRN69CHV
Jan 6th, 05, 9:35 AM
You have to sonic check the blocks and a lot depends on how much corrosion has occured over the years. The bottums of the cylinders start to thin out. Personally, if you need to overbore go to 4.185 on a 402, take it out to about 414CI. If you're really ambitious and will need to get a crank anyway [and don't mind some hand grinding], look into the KB361 stroker piston to put a 4" crank into the 402 block for a 434 (.030 over) or 440 (.060 over).

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 6th, 05, 12:21 PM
I think he's got some cranks in his garage that have been turned.

1966_L78
Jan 6th, 05, 1:01 PM
Most 396/402 can not be safely bored out to 427 bore size... Mostly the early blocks (65-66) are used for the 4.25" overbore... But sonic testing is a good idea anyway.

For the price, I'd consider looking for a 454 block. If your not in a hurry, you should be able to find block and heads (needing rebuild) for that $500... The only thing special I see is that these blocks are cleaned and crack checked...

Afterall, you are looking for the most power within your budget... Much easier to do with the bigger engine. Not only more cubic inches to make more power, but the longer stroke will help make more low-end torque to get a car such as a Chevelle moving. And the larger bore (454 or 427) unshrouds the valves a bit more for better flow.

The 396/402 and the 454 should cost about the same to rebuild, and most likely a little cheaper to do the 454 (aside from pistons and rings, most parts will be the same)...

I see Speed Pro makes an engine rebuild kit for the 396. Does anyone make a kit for the 402?You should be able to use the 396 kit for the 402, as long as the bore size is available in the 396 kit (0.030 over 402 ~= 0.060 over 396, etc). The piston choice will likely be somewhat head specific (open chamber or closed chamber).

Are the '70 blocks considered 396 or 402? (I know in '71 they were calling them 402)
The 1970 "396" engeines were actually 402s... I don't think they ever called them "402" though... I think the 402 might have come out in late 1969 (model year), but not sure...

The 402 in 1970+ Chevelles and Camaros was still called the "396" as in SS396...

The 402 in 1970+ full-size and Malibus (LS3?) were called "400"s

Did the early 1970's pickups call it a "402" or a "396", or both (I recall seeing "396" emblems on some trucks)...

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 6th, 05, 1:26 PM
1966_L78, this block I'm getting is 1970 block. So I guess that makes it a 402.

But then I'm looking at Summits engine kits...they don't specifically say they have one for a 402 but they do have them for a 396 from '65-'70.

Then I find out later the so-called engine kits don't come with connecting rods. :confused:

I agree I would like to do a 454 more than a 396 but try finding one of those around here. I was lucky enuff to even find a guy with a 396 already crack checked.

Of course then again the way I see it if I can make this 402 push 450-500 horses and spank every LS1 out there (like I want to do) then at least I can say that it was all from the mighty power of the little big block. :D

GRN69CHV
Jan 6th, 05, 1:39 PM
Dawg,

Got a question for you. What car is this going in? I see you have mostly small blocks now. I have a .030 over 402 that came in my car - so I gave it a freshening up and have been running it. But it didn't need any parts. All we did was cook the block, cleaned up the decks, hone the cylinders, resize the rods with new bolts and put it back together with new rings and bearings. If it was in need of everything, I would not even have considered it.

For the money you are going to get into, I would either search out a 454 and be prepared to spend the cash to make it work in the car - or - strongly consider an alum head 383 motor. The GMPP 383?? (425HP Smallblock) is about the best bang for the buck small block replacement out there. Probably a 150 - 200 lb weight difference over an iron head big block and that equates to a lot of useable power. You can use all the same acces. brackets. Just a thought.

1966_L78
Jan 6th, 05, 2:23 PM
I agree I would like to do a 454 more than a 396 but try finding one of those around here. I was lucky enuff to even find a guy with a 396 already crack checked.
Do you need to buy one right now?... Crack checked, how much does that cost? $150 (including initial cleaning)???

Maybe find the machine shop you plan to use and ask them how much for a core 454? Complete engine with crank and rods too... Check wrecking yards too... You should be able to find a core for not much more than $500, maybe less. And you might also get pulleys, flex plate, starter, etc wit hthe core that will work in your car...

$500 for a bare 396 block, needing machining? Does that include the heads? include the crank and rods? I would think that $500 for a 396/402 block/heads/crank and rods would be an okay price (considering they still all need to be rebuilt), but if he wants extra for the heads and extra for the crank, then his price seems to be getting too high (unless its an L78 4-bolt block, etc)...

I'd also consider what GRN69CHV stated, and think about a nice SB crate... Figure in the extra costs of brackets, pulleys, headers, oilpan, water pump, exhaust work...

I'd like to push 450 hp/500 tq (or close) at the flywheel.If you are after power,and starting from scratch, WHY limit yourself to the 396/402, especially if you are NOT getting a great deal?

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 6th, 05, 3:04 PM
This engine is going in my Chevelle.

I had considered a small block but if I wanted to do that I have a pos 350 in the car now. I just have wanted a big block for awhile now and saw this as a first oppritunity to both own one and learn how to build one.

About the engine....all of the internals have been removed. The block and heads were checked for cracks and cleaned....that's it. With the block I get a crank and a set of heads. I could probably get the 290 heads that he has now which have already been fitted with new valves and springs, but he recommended if I want to oversize the valves to take a different set of heads (that have been cleaned and crack checked) and have them worked.

Good luck finding any 454's around here. Boneyards snatch them up and sell them quick for high dollar (if they even get them), and you don't even know if it's any good.

Crack checking....this guy has ties with the local machine shop so he gets good deals. I couldn't do the same unless I became buddy-buddy.

Where did you see a 425 hp 383? The ones I've seen say 340 hp...which that's with specially tuned dyno headers and such....still not impressive IMO. Besides I have to question some of the internals on the GMPP engines. Not to mention just how realistic is it to get 425 from a natually aspirated 383 without killing street manners? I want upwards of 450-500 hp. The only way I'm going to get that out of a small block and still keep it streetable is if I spray it or run a blower. And I really don't want to run either.

Oh, btw I've been informed I can reuse my starter, alternator, power steering.It's the brackets and water pump, etc.that I gotta buy new.

1966_L78
Jan 7th, 05, 1:17 PM
I completely understand the allure of the Big Block...

Just trying to impart some advice based on experience...And trying to prevent you from making a costly mistake... I have built several nice 396s that started as $100-$200 cores (block/heads/crank/rods/etc). While nice, I wish I had looked a little deeper for the 454 to start with, for more power at the same streetability...

A 396 (402) is a good motor and great for a resto, but power potential it is not that great.

The 396/402 can be a powerful engine, but it might not reach your goals of 450-500HP AND good street manners... Plus in a heavy Chevelle, the extra torque of the 454 really helps...

Not to mention just how realistic is it to get 425 from a natually aspirated 383 without killing street manners? I want upwards of 450-500 hp. The only way I'm going to get that out of a small block and still keep it streetable is if I spray it or run a blower. And I really don't want to run either.
As realistic as it would be making 425-430 HP from a 396. The power potential of a 396 will NOT be that much greater than a 383 SB... And overall, the 383 might be cheaper...

I want upwards of 450-500 hpFrom a 396... AND you are worried about street manners, etc... Even more reason to go with the 454...

Even if your initial cash outlay for a 454 (for the core) is more than the 396, you should be able to arrive at that 450-500 HP much easier with the 454 (and cheaper overall too, including the extra for the core), plus have better manners and the potential to get even more power (do you honestly think you will be satisfied with 450-500HP once you actually have it? Of course not, you will want more :D )

I am not sure what the #290 head specs are, but if they have new valves, valve job and guides and he is including them, I'd take them... The 396s don't really need big huge valves. In fact, the smaller bore actually shrouds the valves as it is. Bigger valves might need block clearancing and probably won't make any more power, especially in a "streetable" engine... And it will be at least several hundred dollars to rebuilt another set...

Have you placed a "wanted" add for a 454 on Team Chevelle? Have you asked the local Machine shops if you can buy a core and how much?

No big deal, but I think the starters are different between BB and SB (staggered bolts versus straight across... You can also use your distributor...

Crack checking, its been a while, but it is very easy and only takes a few minutes on a clean block... The block would need to be pretty clean first, not necessarily hot tanked, but at least a good degreasing by you...

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 7th, 05, 1:45 PM
Originally posted by 1966_L78:As realistic as it would be making 425-430 HP from a 396. The power potential of a 396 will NOT be that much greater than a 383 SB... And overall, the 383 might be cheaper...So you're saying that it is going to be about as difficult to extract those numbers from a 402 as compared to a 383?


Honestly, for the $500 is the guy including heads/crank/rods or is it just a bare block? How much does he want for those pieces? How much is the "high-dollar" 454 core selling for?
Yes this engine does include the crank and heads. I'm not sure about the rods. I will need to ask him. He probably still has them.

I would not know about the "high dollar 454 core". I do not know of anyone off hand that has one. I've looked with no luck. I was even hoping I'd find an old Caprice or a pick up for sale somewhere nearby with one in it that but nope...not to be found. I'm sure they're out there but it wouldn't be locally. No I'm not willing to travel across the country for an engine.


Have you placed a "wanted" add on Team Chevelle? Have you asked the local Machine shops if you can buy a core and how much?
Yes I just did, hopefully it will be someone local with a good core and not someone in California with a junk core. If it's not local I'm not interested. I found this out first hand when I first placed an ad on here for a car.I mentioned local sales only. Sure got alot of responses from people many many miles away.

The other thing I am worried about is what if I do shell out however much to buy a core and have it crack checked and then they say "We're sorry to say this but your block is junk." Then wouldn't that put me out of some $$?

I would be suprised if any machine shops around here had any 454's, let alone any big blocks.

Oh yeah,how am I supposed to bring a core home? I don't have an old junk truck to haul the silly thing in. That and how much weight we talkin?

USFATL
Jan 7th, 05, 5:58 PM
Hello Junkyard,
I have been reading along and would just like to echo the sentiments of 1966_L78. You can make a 500 hp 402, I know, I have one. However, you will not have a 500 hp 402 that will be fun on the street (again, I Know, I have one)If you are convinced that you need 500 hp then hold out for a 454 to build. To make a 500 hp 402/396 you have to use some pretty large internals. I run a Comp XE284 which is a REAL big cam for a street car. It sounds great sitting at the stop light, but when you change from 1st to 2nd and your girlfriend asks to get out because she can't take the beating, you will truely know the meaning of unstreetable. Believe me, if I had it to do over again I would have built a mild (400 hp) 402 and drove it around until I found a good 454 block.
What you have to do to get that kind of power from a 402 is just too radical for a normally street driven car. Just my opinion

Regards,

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 7th, 05, 8:07 PM
USFATL, I thank you for your input. I was unaware of the fact a 396 would be unstreetable for my power gains. I now understand why everyone says go 454. Dunno what I was thinking. Hee-hee.

But now if I may ask, just how unstreetable would a 396/402 have to be to make the 500 hp mark I'm after? How unstreetable is yours? What kind of "large internals" are we talking?

What I meant by unstreetable was something I would have to wind to 4000 + rpms just to even start making enough power to move the car.

If the engine only saw 2000-4000 rpms for most street driving that wouldn't be so bad. I just don't want something that runs in the 4000-8000 power range all the time. That's fine for a quarter mile superstar but this car will probably see more street than strip.

BTW, that cam you have looks like it has a advertised duration of 284/296, a duration of 240/246 at.050 and a lift .574/.578, and it's power range runs between 2300 to 6500 rpms. This was the ideal power range I was looking for.

ddeennis
Jan 7th, 05, 11:58 PM
with a trap speed of over 107 mph with a weight of 3900 lbs i dont think my 396 is unstreetable. it has 13.5" of hg vacuum at idle. it runs on 87 octane fuel,idles at 800 rpms in park and 650rpms in drive.

it runs a rpm intake 3310-2 holley and a very street friendly 233/239 @ .050 cam. this is well over the 450 hp mark at the flexplate and this is thru the exhaust...2 1/2" pipes to the full boar fully welded mufflers with 2 1/4" tail pipes with air cleaner on and the acc. on.

with alittle more tuning (carb jetting and timing)this will reach the 109+ mph mark in the 1/4 mile.

i'm just wondering why its being said that making 450-500 hp is so unstreetable for the little bbc.

BB_Mike
Jan 8th, 05, 12:12 AM
Finding a 454 block is a very hard thing to do. I settled on a 402 motor, and haven't looked back since.

I quote 450HP to those who ask, but it's the E.T. that does the talking. smile.gif

and I agree with Dennis, or denees, whichever. You can run just under 110 MPH and stay very streetable. I keep 93 octain in my car because I run a very agressive timing curve. It's either WOT or not for me... Even on the street. :D Some probably are quicker, but some probably don't (didn't) have their setup as a daily driver car for 2+ years. Economy made mine a weekend warrior car. :(

ddeennis
Jan 8th, 05, 12:32 AM
hey bb_mike....its dennis....i use ddeennis because that what i was able to use for my email.....trying to keep things simple....lol

anyway.....i see your running 109 mph in the 1/4 with your 396 i'm wondering what is your total set up....carb, jetting timing, cam and any little tricks you have used to get there....i have been working on mine for about 1 1/2 and spent last part of the race season to tune mine to the point it is now....your right the mph speaks for it's self.....really show the power your making.

i would say your making about 20 more hp then i em since we are about the same weight.

HVY70SS
Jan 8th, 05, 3:40 AM
I have to agree with BB Mike, you gotta love the baby rat 402. With my car it's bolt up the mufflers and put some street legal tires on the back and go to car cruises. Honestly, I'd rather drag race. I don't do the car show/cruise thing anymore with this car. Anyway check my sig. A very streetable 11 second car with a 1967 396 block. Have fun!!
graemlins/beers.gif

70convt396
Jan 8th, 05, 10:59 AM
Dennis,BBMike and Hvy70-
It is good to see some baby rats alive and well out there! I have been following along cuz I am trying to get my combo right as I rebuild mine.
BB Mike- looks like your running a stealth and an edelbrock. How do you like that- I was thinking about a 3310 w/ the stealth. :D Not alot of talk about the edelbrock carbs.
Dennis nice to see those #'s with some decent street manners too, good idle and vac!Do you run a stall?

mr 4 speed
Jan 8th, 05, 11:35 AM
BB Mike runs a 3310

..and I would say his car is putting out very close to 450-500 HP at the crank..109 MPH with a heavy car ain't no joke :D

..and he runs the same cam I do,and for big block,its very,very streetable.

1968 hot rod
Jan 8th, 05, 11:56 AM
Chris,
I have a customer w/a 402 that makes a real 450/470 corrected hp,uncorrected it is less.
Its a 1970 Chevelle 3800lbs race weight,turns 119mph @11teens (at Atco)which is uncorrected hp .
Most street cars that run around 110 make around 360 to 390 or so sometimes less if they are geared well and have a race torque converter or gearbanger. :cool:

mr 4 speed
Jan 8th, 05, 12:12 PM
68 hotrod,sounds like you're talking about rwhp..I'm talking at the crank

chvl71402
Jan 8th, 05, 1:54 PM
I do not consider my Little Rat to be unstreetable at all. Idles smmothly in gear at
700 rpm. With a 2400 stall converter and overdrive tranny to boot. Has gone 11.9x's
Does not have to be radical to make power.
I run a wide LSA street roller.
With 113-114 trap speeds and 3880 lbs and 390 at the wheels I'm guessing 470 HP at the crank.

SS_Sean
Jan 8th, 05, 1:56 PM
dawg, I built a 402 that came in my 70 Chevelle. I wish I had gone with the 454 simply for the cubes, but I wanted to stick with the motor the car was badged for 'SS396'. They cost the same to build. Just because the 402 is quick and easy now doesn't mean you are going to be satisfied later. I would give the shop your going to have do the machining a jingle and see if they have any 454 sources, chances are they will. You'd be amazed. The 454's are getting scarce around here, too, but they're still out there. Full size trucks, cars, vans, and yes, motorhomes regularly came with them.

My 402 combo makes 350 rwhp, which is in the ballpark of your goal, and is very similar to dennis'. If I went with the larger motor I'd easily been able to be in the 500 hp mark.

Look around before you take the easy route. But then, hey, some folks just like the baby rat. If you are going to do this 402 then go with the cam BBM and mr4speed are running, bar none!

BB_Mike
Jan 8th, 05, 1:59 PM
4 speed is right, I don't update my pictures like I should.

The Q-jet carb was good for long cruises and gas milage. But it is hell if you have not-so-great traction. Sometimes it's cool on the road to just break 'em loose and be "that guy", but at the track it is very hard to get a good sixty foot with those HUGE 2ndaries. I can't go WOT off the line, just a cery quick roll into it.

Dennis,
My combo isn't so special, so I'll point out he highlights. I only got up to 106 mph with some (very much) reworked closed chambered heads. Now I run a set of Merlin Oval port open chambered and while I did freshen up the tranny, I got the 4mph right there.

So, let's see:
- Merlin Oval port heads (iron)
- 280/288 cam on a 110 lsa, madeby Ultradyne.
- 3310 holly carb with lighter 2ndary spring (factory jets)
- Stealth dual plain spreadbore intake.
- 1 3/4" headers to 3" headpipe
- 20" long dynomax super turbos, 2.5" tail pipes.
- Electric fuel pump.
- Compression now is around 10.3:1 (I had the merlins shaved to around 115cc)
- $600 ATI converter, flashes about 3200
- I shift 1-2 around 5700, but wind out 2-3 to about 6000.

That is the just of things.
I hope to one day build a 468 short block and toss my top end over on it.

mr 4 speed
Jan 8th, 05, 2:15 PM
Just to point out too..the Stealth that Mike runs is a dual flange intake (fits spreadbore and squarebore carbs)
..some people get confused when they hear 3310 and a spreadbore intake smile.gif

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 8th, 05, 2:17 PM
Originally posted by SS_Sean:

My 402 combo makes 350 rwhp, which is in the ballpark of your goal, and is very similar to dennis'. If I went with the larger motor I'd easily been able to be in the 500 hp mark.
You mean "450 horses"? Lol...heck 350 horses I could get that from a 350.

But then again even if I get a 454 to build now what's there to say I may grow out of it later? Then what's next? A 632? I better start playing the lottery.

I do see what you're saying about going bigger now. Keep in mind an engine is what's keeping me from enjoying my car right now. But then again when I think about it, if I did just settle for the 402 now I could build it up, then when a 454 comes up in the future, I could snag it up then, build it and take out the 402 and find it a new home....my dad happens to have a '68 Camaro that could use it...the title is in my name and the car is also willed to me...it's a factory 396 car but the 396 was replaced with a 400 sbc before he bought it....the old 400 sbc is gettin tired...I could swap engines, then build up the 400 sbc and stick it in an S-10...ah, now I'm rambling. tongue.gif

SS_Sean
Jan 8th, 05, 2:26 PM
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SS_Sean:

My 402 combo makes 350 rwhp, which is in the ballpark of your goal, and is very similar to dennis'. If I went with the larger motor I'd easily been able to be in the 500 hp mark.
You mean "450 horses"? Lol...heck 350 horses I could get that from a 350.

But then again even if I get a 454 to build now what's there to say I may grow out of it later? Then what's next? A 632? I better start playing the lottery.

I do see what you're saying about going bigger now. Keep in mind an engine is what's keeping me from enjoying my car right now. But then again when I think about it, if I did just settle for the 402 now I could build it up, then when a 454 comes up in the future, I could snag it up then, build it and take out the 402 and find it a new home....my dad happens to have a '68 Camaro that could use it...the title is in my name and the car is also willed to me...it's a factory 396 car but the 396 was replaced with a 400 sbc before he bought it....the old 400 sbc is gettin tired...I could swap engines, then build up the 400 sbc and stick it in an S-10...ah, now I'm rambling. tongue.gif </font>[/QUOTE]That's 350 rwhp, about 450 at the flywheel.

Bob West
Jan 8th, 05, 4:55 PM
It sounds great sitting at the stop light, but when you change from 1st to 2nd and your girlfriend asks to get out because she can't take the beating, you will truely know the meaning of unstreetable. Its still streetable,just get a new girlfriend, like Beth or Luvr :D

1968 hot rod
Jan 8th, 05, 5:40 PM
Mr 4speed,
That is flywheel horsepower.
The dyno is a Superflow.
The shop we used repairs dyno's and it
is calibrated accuratly.
What most of us are used to dealing with is magazine horsepower.
The 1st engine I ever had tested made 630hp,this was a 427 with retangle ports,roller cam and only 12.4 to1 comp ratio.
This ran 10:20's @131mph in a gutted 79 Camaro.
A good 375hp 4spd 67 Chevelle will run around 109mph geared correctly

ddeennis
Jan 8th, 05, 6:24 PM
before i built this mild 396 i'm running now....i was running a more radical 396 in my street car but i didnt like the street matters it had. so i tried a different approach....trying to make hp a more efficient way. so i detuned that motor to what it is today.

the previous 396 was this

396 bored .060 over
375 hp 396 replacement pistons...gave 11.7 to1 comp
'390 casting heads with some port work,2.19/1.88 valves
stock unbalanced bottom end with factory bolts.
262/273 @.050 solid cam the old ZL-1 grind
full roller rockers lash set at .018"
victor jr intake 850 holley
small tube headers
4500 stall from tci 10"
4.56 gears
locked out hei set at 36 degrees
in street trim thru mufflers and regular 275/60-15 tires it ran 12.18 @ 110 mph with 1.72 60 ft time.

did some more porting on the heads and reworked the valve angles and added a 20 degree back cut on the valves
the car would run 12.20's @ 115 mph with 1.90's 60 ft times.......thru mufflers and on the tires...it was harder to hook now...

with slicks and open headers it ran the mid 11's around the 116 mph mark.....this combo loved the 7200 rpms shift points and pulled hard on top end even past 7200..put to keep the engine living longer i limited the rpms to 7200

this combo only provided about 4.5"of hg at idle and was very very soft under the 3500 rpm range.....took a lot of tuning to really get some kinda street matters out of it......this was in a 3600 lbs car.

70convt396
Jan 8th, 05, 6:42 PM
dennis is full supply an issue or can the stock fuel pump keep up with demand?

ddeennis
Jan 8th, 05, 6:56 PM
the one pump i have used since day one on the bbc 396 motor's is the holley street/strip version. i have used this pump with a fuel regulater set at just a tad over 7 psi. even with a 150 hp shot of nitrous it was enough to take it into the low 11's at 123 mph before the engine was strong enough alone to go 11's......i later added a holley blue pump in line by the rear stock tank before i changed to the 175 hp jets in the nitrous system to run some ten's. but doing so i would have to run the pump on and off during cruising around town since the fuel could not be pulled thru the elec. pump.

the holley mechanical street/strip pump sure seems to be good enough for 11's on its own.....i had it with 1/2" fuel line from the tank to the pump. and 1/2" from the pump to the regulator and from the regulator to the nitrous and carb it was 3/8" line.

1968 hot rod
Jan 8th, 05, 7:01 PM
The 70 runs a 4:11 gear small roller,Speed Pro #2328 piston with a zero deck it barely make 10/1 cr with its 990 cyl heads its got 10" of vacuum.
I broke his stones to change to oval ports and bye a custom piston but he can be hard headed. :D

jobberone
Jan 8th, 05, 7:20 PM
Hey 68 hotrod. I agree. In 65 those SS Chevelles with the 327/350 were running 105-108 on bias tires thru a muncie and most had 3.73 posi rears. Of course I suspect they had more HP than advertised.

jobberone
Jan 8th, 05, 8:07 PM
I built a 454 recently for the street. I think it's pretty easy to get 1hp/ci and you're going to get a lot of torque which is really what is measured anyway.

I think you should do what you want. If this guy will stand behind a block then you're going to get all the street fun you want from any BBC unless it's in a dump truck.

If you're going to street your chevelle and occasionally go to the strip here are my recommendations.

Find a pull out from a running truck with a 454. The more stuff that works and is included is better. Because you'll nickel and dime yourself a lot with your accessories. Get motor mounts, crossmembers, tranny and the works if possible.

If that's not possible just get a 454 2 bolt with a cast crank. If you get a 4 bolt and forged crank for the same money yippee. Unless you're going to race it over 6500 rpms and run high compression it's not necessary though.

To 6500 and rare strip runs you will not tear up this combo. Your rods then pistons will be your weakest part and HD truck rods and cast pistons are just fine as long as you don't rev it too high or detonate. I think forged stuff is great but it's expensive and you can break anything if you dog it hard enough or long enough.

I suggest for a BBC a 454 which will likely need to go 30 over. Cast crank probably will need turning as well.

Flat top hyper pistons are 30 each. If the cast ones are ok and bore ok I'd use them. Resize the rods and hope you got the thicker ones. Put new good bolts in. Balance them yourself. Stress relieve them. Have the whole assembly balanced with your new balancer and your planned flexplate or flywheel.

Put your money in the top end and your running gear. Open heads are great. 702s are good but they do have closed chambers. That's ok for the flat pistons and CR. 049s are good. Ask around and get good iron heads that are known to flow well that are open chambered oval ports IMO. You'll put some bucks into them with bigger valves, guides yada. Spend the right money here if you want to go 6500. 5/16s rods are ok but I'd spend the extra and get 3/8s making sure the guide plates were 3/8s. If you're going real fast then you'll need 7/16s esp with real big rollers. Match your rockers to your combo. Stock are ok at 450 hp. Stock rollers are better. You don't need girdles and expensive rockers unless you're going high revs.

If you want 6500 then use an RPM, Weiand good to that or air gap. If you're going to live lower most of the time move the torque curve left with a performer or something good to 5500.

Again if you want 6500 get something at most like a 284 or Summitts 1303. I'd stay hydraulic even at 6500. A 600 to 800 carb is all you need. A 750 electric choke is great compromise.

If you're going over 6500 you need to get a 4 bolt or best put splayed caps on. Expensive. You'll need a forged crank, very good forged rods and pistons. You will run out of air without very good heads so ask a racer what breathes to 7500 or 8500 or wherever you're going. 1000+ for unassembled heads likely. Match the cam, heads, manifold and carb to that. You'll have to have a very good ignition system, oiling system. Your transmission, driveshaft and rear end and suspension everywhere will have to be beefed up if you're going to put 550 plus thru them. You'll need to redo your front end anyway if it's designed for a SBC and you put a BBC in it.

Finally, I think what I'd really do is take out the 350 and machine it 30 over and drop in an Eagle 383 int bal cast crank for 189 delivered to your door. Add forged rods 5.7 for 300 and hyper pistons for 275. It's easier to get 30 over hyper pistons for the 383 conversion. Forged will cost you a few hundred more. Put something like early 461 heads or the like but with accessory holes on the short block. Big valves unshrouded unless you find factory 2.02s. Good valve train with roller rockers. Watch out for deals on alum heads. Do your homework. RPM intake and 600-800 carb. That's an easier switch than to a BBC and you'll get lots of street fun.

If you want to race I'd buy someones race car that goes as fast as you want and go from there. You'll spend a lot less money that way.

That's a lotta 2 cents worth.

jobberone
Jan 8th, 05, 9:56 PM
sorry. I asked the mods why my posts were doubling up.

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 9th, 05, 4:45 PM
Originally posted by jobberone:

Find a pull out from a running truck with a 454. The more stuff that works and is included is better. Because you'll nickel and dime yourself a lot with your accessories. Get motor mounts, crossmembers, tranny and the works if possible.
Actually wont the stock 350 motor mounts work? I plan on probably going with solid motor mounts anyways unless there's any disadvantage to them other than they have no flex to them.


Your rods then pistons will be your weakest part and HD truck rods and cast pistons are just fine as long as you don't rev it too high or detonate.
I'm going to see if he still has the stock 402 rods and if so and if they're still good I will probably reuse them but have them fitted with arp bolts. I was planning on using speed pro forged pop up pistons. For bearings I'm considering Clevite 77 or Federal-Mogul. And yes 6500 rpms is my limit...think the stock rods will live up to that?


Resize the rods and hope you got the thicker ones. Balance them yourself. Stress relieve them. Have the whole assembly balanced with your new balancer and your planned flexplate or flywheel.
By resizing the rods you mean?? And how do you go about balancing them and stress relieving them? Also with the 350's flex plate off the TH350 work with the big block?


Put your money in the top end and your running gear. 5/16s rods are ok but I'd spend the extra and get 3/8s making sure the guide plates were 3/8s. If you're going real fast then you'll need 7/16s esp with real big rollers. Match your rockers to your combo. Stock are ok at 450 hp. Stock rollers are better.
I was planning on using a set of 290 heads and having them fitted for 2.19 intakes and (I forgot the size of the exaust) but have those beefed up too.

But then after re-reading part of this post it appears the bore of the 402 is so small that trying to upgrade the size of the valves might not be worth it. But I have heard that they should be ported and polished...or would that not be worth the effort on a 402 engine with 290 heads?

Also what are these 5/16 rods, 3/8 rods you're referring to?

I plan on using roller rockers.


If you want 6500 then use an RPM, Weiand good to that or air gap. If you're going to live lower most of the time move the torque curve left with a performer or something good to 5500.
I plan on making this a 6500 rpm engine. I was planning on using the RPM intake. I would the Air Gap but I've heard they're not much different than an RPM in terms of performance. Can anyone testify?


Again if you want 6500 get something at most like a 284. I'd stay hydraulic even at 6500. A 600 to 800 carb is all you need. A 750 electric choke is great compromise.
I was planning on running a Comp XE284. I've been recommended the XE line of cams. Plus the 284 seems to make power in the 2300-6500 rpm range....perfect for me. I would then probably run a 3k stall converter although I do have a 2500 stall converter sitting around...the stall rating was from a sbc so I figure maybe it will be a few hundered with a bbc.

I was told to run a 750 cfm carb....would a 600 cfm really work well? I've got a few of them sitting in my garage needing a home.


You'll need to redo your front end anyway if it's designed for a SBC and you put a BBC in it.
Yes I was planning on replacing the front coils anyways.


If you want to race I'd buy someones race car that goes as fast as you want and go from there. You'll spend a lot less money that way.
I do agree and I have been looking around to see if someone has an old race car with a good engine/trans so I could buy the whole car, use what I want and sell the rest. Unfortunatley no one around here seems to have one. graemlins/sad.gif

jobberone
Jan 9th, 05, 6:39 PM
My point was you'll get all the accessories that will bolt up well together. But it's not a big deal. I don't know if 350 motor mounts work or not. I wouldn't run mounts without rubber. I don't like the vibration. If all you do is cruise a little and/or race you won't car though.

Your rods will be your weakest link. At 6500 HD rods are ok with good bolts. I don't think you need forged pistons in an engine you're planning but it doesn't hurt to go stronger if you want and can afford it. I would watch my CR.

I wouldn't build a 396 unless it was going into a date correct car or something. You can buy and build a 454 for the same money. Then you get more torque at less RPM which helps the pocket book. Good oval open heads are fine. You only need so much air for that motor.

5/16 push rods are ok for that motor. 3/8 is safer and you are getting new ones and they aren't that expensive. You don't need 7/16 IMO.

Stock roller rockers are good. Don't spend too much because they aren't going to help that much in that motor. Spend your money on other goodies.

For 6500 I'd go Performer RPM or Weiand. The Weiand is cheaper. A 600 will flow to about 95% of that engines capability. I'd go with the 750 electric.

The 284 is aggressive but with a 454 you wouldn't need a stall converter. You might want to rebuild your tranny though. That's where I'd spend those extra bucks.

But it's all good. Everyone does it one way or another. As long as you're having fun it doesn't matter.

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 9th, 05, 7:51 PM
What are these "HD" rods you're referring to?

About the c.r...I do want to keep this a 93 octane engine. If I went with 290 heads what piston should I use?

On a set of 290 heads would it even be worth going to bigger valves on a 408 engine?

So a set of roller rockers won't help out much eh?

As mentioned I would go 454 if anyone around here had one. I even asked a buddy of mine's brother in law who does alot of racing...he says those things are scarce and no one wants to give theirs up.

It would probably be easier to just get a GMPP 454. ;)

USFATL
Jan 9th, 05, 9:04 PM
Guy's, I guess it comes down to the old argument of what is streetable. I consider steetable a car you can jump in at any moment and drive anywhere you want, without ever saying to yourself "wow, that was unpleasent". Maybe it's just my combination but when I am driving in stop and go traffic the Chevelle is not alot of fun (other than tuner drivers looking the other way and everyone else giving the thumbs up). I guess it is the combination of the XE284 and the 2800/3000 stall along with the race prepped 700r4 transmission that makes the low rpm driveing challenging. I know the cam is not really condusive to "normal" street driving. The meat of the power band starts at about 3200/3400 rpm's. In street driving I very seldom see 3200 rpm's. Therefore, with my transmission/stall setup, any shift that happens below stall speed will absolutely knock your fillings out. As I said before this is all my opinion, but if I were wanting a minimum of 500 hp, I would definately opt for the 454.

Regards,

ddeennis
Jan 9th, 05, 9:28 PM
im just wondering how a shift point below the stall knocks your fillings out.......not to start anything.....most trannys shift at 1800 rpms between gears, with easy driving and with any kind of a stall it just softens the shift point even more ..even with a stout shift kit......now take a stock stall 1600 -1800 rpms with a tranny that shifts hard with some kinda gear out back like 3.73 and you get tire chirp between 1-2 shift under easy driving......put a stall of 2800 in that same car and that harsh shift is soften a lot and the chirp goes away......everything i have ever built has this same attitude....but throw the hammer down and let the sucker rip at 6500 rpms and the car hits HARD between gears......i guess i would believe that statement if the tranny had a low stall under the normal shifting operation......

1966_L78
Jan 10th, 05, 1:57 PM
But I have heard that they should be ported and polished...or would that not be worth the effort on a 402 engine with 290 heads? Dawg, Porting and polishing can help improve flow and maybe even help out that little 396/402/408 you are contemplating... But likely not much improvement, if any, for a milder engine...

BUT, If you are willing to spend the time and MONEY needed to port/polish the heads, why won't you step up and spend that money on a 454 instead???

True, you can always find a 454 later, its just that you seemed to be talking about a 402 for mostly budget reasons, and building another 454 in the future will be alot more than building one now...

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 11th, 05, 1:42 AM
If any worthy 454 cores were avaliable I would.

ddeennis
Jan 11th, 05, 2:08 AM
porting and polishing does bennifit even the mild 396 motors......why do i say this.....because i did a back to back test ......with no other changes at all......i raced on a weekend ran 13.90's and then during the week i pulled the heads off....290 heads..with small 2.06/1.72 valves..sunken at that even.......ported them and polished them with just a hand drill, stones, flapping paper......i got as far as one could with just this......i did borrow a dremal tool with extension and got some of the inner runners better......just a basic clean up of casting and smoothing..i ran across the valves seats a few times on some slips relap the valves in by hand...no water leaked by the seats thank god.........bolted it back on the engine ran it 6 days later from last race day and ran 13.60's with a 4 mph increase in trap speed.....not bad for 20 dollar head gaskets, my time and about 10 dollars in grinding stone and paper.....and yes i did reuse my intake gaskets and header gasket.....cheap hp...in my books....

jobberone
Jan 11th, 05, 7:29 PM
The truck rods I think without looking are .575 and the stock are .500 thick. There's also more metal under the bolt. I think these are fine for the street. Actually both are but I'd prefer the bigger rods.

kstanbach
Jan 12th, 05, 1:04 AM
I agree with the GMPP statement. go get yourself 5 or 6 credit cards, lol, and boom 454 425 hp. Better yet, get the 502. I got a 502 because I didn't want to go scrounging around junkyards dealing with coreshifted junk. I believe gmpp sells a brand new 454 block for 800 bucks, or you could go test drive a new 8100 series pick up and swap in the 396 for the 8100:) Refinance the house. join the army for the bonus(or reserve). Loan out the kids to the local coal mine. Now, it's hard to 5 finger a 454, but you can save a fortune at wal-mart using the discount(watch out for video). get you wife on unemployment. get your dog a credit card.

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 12th, 05, 1:25 AM
Umm...why would I need 5 or 6 credit cards? :confused:

Where can I find this $800 block? Do they also sell it in short block?

Don't think I could put the 8100 in w/o all of the computer garbage. No thanx. No computers have ever been in my car, nor will they ever be.

I rent my house so I can't refinance it.

I'm already in the Air Force. Been in 6 years now. I get paid the same as the Army base pay wise.

I have no children.

I ususally shop at Wally world and usually buy the "Great Value" stuff.

I'm not married. I have a fiancee that has no job. She has already filed for unemployment.

Our dog died. A credit card would have done him no good anyway other than a chew toy.

This is starting to sound like a country/western song. graemlins/sad.gif

baddbob71
Jan 12th, 05, 1:34 AM
You just need to start asking and looking, there is 454 nearby waiting to be found. Sometimes making conversation with the least likely people will bring up leads on parts you wouldn't believe. Ask around at the parts stores, have friends ask around, get the search going. You'll find one if you start looking. I found a 502 just down the road from me for sale needs work for $800- interested? I can get the guy's number but shipping would be expensive. Bob

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 12th, 05, 10:45 AM
So what bore do you bore a 402 over to make a 414?

mr 4 speed
Jan 12th, 05, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
So what bore do you bore a 402 over to make a 414? .060 over

67Super Sport
Jan 12th, 05, 10:51 AM
Take a look at my web page. It has my 396 engine combo listed. You can see my best ET in my sig. This is probably mid 11's in the 1/4. Backing into the numbers the HP is probably around 425. Street manners: with the 5000 stall ATI converter I would say are marginal. Fine for a Sat. night cruiser, but not what you want for an every day driver. But, with a 10" converter more setup for the street (around 3500-4000 stall) the street manners would be pretty good.

I had a discussion with a pretty experienced cylinder head man from NJ that has done a lot with BBC iron oval port heads. He says the larger valves and port work does help out the smaller 396/402 engines, but it does not wake them up nearly as much as a 427/454 and larger c.i. big block. My heads are bone stock other than a good 3 angle valve job. My web site says I have the larger valves, but that is a misprint that I need to fix. I am thinking I am giving up .1-.2 in the 1/8th with my untouched heads, but I haven't had the money or time to get into that yet. The car has reached a level that has me pretty happy and it has been deadly consistant here over the past couple years so I am leaving wll enough alone for now.

Keep in mind it's not all about HP/TQ as it is optimizing the combo. My car runs quicker than some 454's that people claim to be making 450-500 hp. But the converter, suspension, cam, carburetor and everything are working together to form a very good total package. In street trim (i.e. 3500-4000 10" converter, all accesories run off the engine, more streetable gear, street tires) I would probably be more in the high 7's in the 1/8th and low 12's in the 1/4.

IMO if you have access to a good 396 are on a budget, and are just looking for a good street/strip engine and not looking to blow everyone away at the strip then go with the 396. It's a good chance you will have to look long and hard to find a good 454 block and you will pay a pretty penny if you find one. However there are deals to be had you just have to look.

To answer more of you questions:

1. I'd like to push 450 hp/500 tq (or close) at the flywheel. What all will be required to achieve this gain if I stay naturally aspirated w/o nitrous?

Again look at my combo. Some more head work, a bit more compression and bit larger cam will put my combo close to your goal probably.

2. I've heard 396/402's like oval port heads and not square port heads. Is this so? If so what casting and piston should I use to get a 10.0:1 compression ratio? Or should I go higher on the c.r.?

Stick with oval port heads. I use Speed Pro forged piston # 2240NF30 and have 10.25:1 compresion using 390390 closed chamber oval port heads.

3. I'd like the power range to run between 2000 and 6500 rpm. Are there any cam kits to run in this range for my desired compression? I'm going to go with a hydraulic cam. I want it to have a hot lope to it while idling.

Tons of cams for this power range and compresion. Look at the comp cams xtreme energy line.

4. I see Speed Pro makes an engine rebuild kit for the 396. Does anyone make a kit for the 402? Anyone have any experience with this kit? Good? Bad?

Not sure.

5. What size intake/exaust valves should I run with for my desired output?

I would go 2.19/1.88 unless your heads don't need any work then just stick with the 2.06/1.72 valves. Again my web site is currently wrong. It says I am using the larger valves, but I actually am using 2.06/1.72 valves. Having the heads worked for the larger valves will cost upwards of $200-300 plus the cost of the valves. Would be worth it tough if you can afford to do it.

6. If a .030 396 is a 402, then what is a .030 402?

7. Are the '70 blocks considered 396 or 402? (I know in '71 they were calling them 402)

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 12th, 05, 3:27 PM
Looks like a pretty kick ass combo.

I think I'm going to use the comp xe cam on mine...the 284 that is...makes power from 2300-6500. I figure with a good 3000 stall converter, a 3 speed auto, an eddy rpm intake, a 750 Holley and a 4.10 in the rear I should do well. I already have the 4.10 in as the car came this way.

I was curious if a 10.5 c.r. engine with the above mentioned cam would get by on 93 octane?

So a .060 402 is a 414 eh? Sounds kick ass. Any problems with a 414? Who makes pistons for a 414?

kstanbach
Jan 12th, 05, 4:53 PM
I'm mostly joking guy, and I'm sorry about your dog. Last time I checked GMPP, like, scoggy dickens sells a bare 454 block with one piece rear main seal for 800 or so dollars. I don't believe the 454 crate motor is sold in short block form, but if it was, with some oval port heads, it would rock. The four or five credit cards is to finance the new motor, BUT seriously you can use your star card to buy a new motor(or 2100 dollars toward a new one). The terms are great, and contact me on how to do it if you need help. Nothing will cheer you up like a big fat hairy cammed big block.

BigBlockBeaumont
Jan 12th, 05, 5:16 PM
Whats with the 454 blocks being scarce? There are several I know for sale right now and I'm not even looking. Maybe some places they are all picked over but, here in Southern Ontario there are lots.

Just my $ 0.02

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 15th, 05, 2:06 AM
Originally posted by jobberone:

If you want to race I'd buy someones race car that goes as fast as you want and go from there. You'll spend a lot less money that way.
You mean like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6172&item=4519896751&rd=1

70 beater
Jan 15th, 05, 3:34 AM
My 402 makes 460 hp @ 5600 at the fly,#201(?can't remember)pocket ported closed chamber heads,Comp solid flat tappet-248 @.050 .602 lift,Pro Magnum rockers,10.5:1,2" long tubes w/ 3" 2 chamber Flowmasters,the old Torker intake(I know it's junk-just haven't swapped it)w/Speed Demon 750 mech.2ndaries.The e.t. is quicker than the sbc that was in it('70 Chevelle)but the mph is slower.I also changed too many things at once(engine,tranny,gear)so I don't really know how they compare apples to apples.This engine needs more stall-32-3500.

I came on here looking for N2O threads and saw this,thought I'd add my $.02.The car goes 7s in the 1/8,btw,it's also my daily driver.I'm looking to do a 454 to replace the 402.The car will be happier.

jobberone
Jan 15th, 05, 3:42 AM
There are 454s everywhere. All you need is a 2 bolt with a cast crank which aren't hard to find. Go from there. I have one on eBay right now that I think would be a great street engine.

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 15th, 05, 9:29 AM
Hey jobberone, how much hp/tq do you estimate that engine could make if the cam was swapped over to a Comp XE284?

ddeennis
Jan 15th, 05, 5:00 PM
Originally posted by 70 beater:
My 402 makes 460 hp @ 5600 at the fly,#201(?can't remember)pocket ported closed chamber heads,Comp solid flat tappet-248 @.050 .602 lift,Pro Magnum rockers,10.5:1,2" long tubes w/ 3" 2 chamber Flowmasters,the old Torker intake(I know it's junk-just haven't swapped it)w/Speed Demon 750 mech.2ndaries.The e.t. is quicker than the sbc that was in it('70 Chevelle)but the mph is slower.I also changed too many things at once(engine,tranny,gear)so I don't really know how they compare apples to apples.This engine needs more stall-32-3500.

I came on here looking for N2O threads and saw this,thought I'd add my $.02.The car goes 7s in the 1/8,btw,it's also my daily driver.I'm looking to do a 454 to replace the 402.The car will be happier. 460hp at 5600rpms uh? is that off a real dyno sheet? can you post it? that is not typical of 396 motors to peak so low in the rpm range..... .specialy with that cam , pocket ported heads and the way over sized headers......that do nothing for the 396 bbc..but kill the torque......that combo would peak near the 6500-6600 rpm range.......not trying to hammer on you or anything just curious.......on how you got your power number at 5600 rpms....

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 16th, 05, 12:15 AM
I just taked to the guy today. Yes it does indeed come with magnafluxed rods.

Originally posted by GRN69CHV:
Personally, if you need to overbore go to 4.185 on a 402, take it out to about 414CI. If you're really ambitious and will need to get a crank anyway [and don't mind some hand grinding], look into the KB361 stroker piston to put a 4" crank into the 402 block for a 434 (.030 over) or 440 (.060 over). Can the engine be safely rebored once it's at the 414 mark? And where do you get this crank you're talking about? Also I take it that it uses special pistons?

Oh yeah, what do you guys recommend....a mechanical roller cam or a hydraulic flat tappet cam?

jobberone
Jan 16th, 05, 4:03 AM
I wouldn't change the cam in my motor. You're not going to notice any difference unless you dyno it and I don't know which one will be the most torque and/or HP at what rpm. They're close. That motor is going to be over 450 hp but more importantly the torque curve will be over 500 and the engine will breathe well to 6500 still making HP. You're not going to use all of it anyway except at the drag strip. Occasional dragging is ok for a street motor. If've you're going to compete you need different components costing much more. It needs to be built differently for 7500 or more with all its components working together to stay together and breathe that well.

Stay with a good street motor and spend your money on the rest of the car esp the drivetrain. Just my opinion.

You can catch a marlin on a 30 lb reel and good rod with 30-50 lb line just as easily as you can with a 50 lb reel with bigger rod and bigger line. It's a zen thing. I think.

GRN69CHV
Jan 16th, 05, 9:33 AM
A 4" stroke crank is just a stock 454 crank. The only thing special are the pistons. They are hypereutectic and run abut 360.00 for the set. The key to the whole deal is getting a good block to start with for the right money. After that, it's just choice of parts.

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 16th, 05, 2:30 PM
Ah, so a 454 crank in a 402 makes it a 434 eh...does Summit sell this particular crank/pistons? I've not seen any stroker kits for the 402. Will the 402 rods work on this crank?

Kevs68
Jan 16th, 05, 2:46 PM
Speedomotive.com has the kit for $900 or you could buy a crank, use your rods and get the pistons.

70 beater
Jan 16th, 05, 6:01 PM
It's cool,it's kind of a goofy set up.
That # was on the engine dyno,different carb and headers,s'pose to be the same crappy intake.It came out of an El Camino that we switched to 454,that's how I ended up getting the engine.5600 doesn't sound right,does it?maybe that was the torque peak,anyway that's where it's shifted at on the track.I'll see about getting a scan or something on the sheets,there were several.
The car is .10 quicker(1/8) with the 2" than it was with the 1 3/4 headers.Went from 8.1x-8.0xs to top 7.8xs.The 60's aren't very good-due to the converter being to tight,I suppose,but they didn't drop off with the larger headers.
It's also just barely quicker than the sbc(motor to motor)don't know how it will be on bottle.This engine went 8.80s in the "tow" truck.

Anyway,given a choice,I would go with the 454.

jobberone
Jan 16th, 05, 11:22 PM
All big block cranks have 2.75 mains and 2.2 rod journals. They can all be turned at least 20 without problems. They are not all interchangeable.

I don't know if you can get pistons for a stroked 396 or not. Call Keith Black or Summitt tech.

It would be easier to either sell your short block and get a 454 or rebuild your short block IMO.

Junkyard Dawg
Jan 17th, 05, 5:02 AM
It would also be just as easy to sell the car and give up all together. ;)

Would you actually recommend me rebuild the 350 that's in there versus rebuilding a 396?

If anyone around here had a 454 and I knew it was good I'd be on it like white on rice.

Oh, just how much more weight does an iron big block weigh vs. a small block? I'm talking if both had iron heads and aluminum intakes.