I'm curious why a lot of people are hung up on the BSE engine and the guy who 'made' it.

I hope I don't step on any toes by dragging anyone into this, but for example, Eric68 runs, what, 11.31 on a driven, pump gas small block. Maybe because it's a lighter car+lighter engine or raced in a different class than racer1320 races, but that ET from a small block (and Motor Martyr's small block, too) makes the big block's ET seem not so impressive. Again, maybe because it's a different bracket or a big block in a heavy Chevelle, but still...

And the guy isn't even humble about it anyway.

Sorry mods, I'm after the racer1320 days so I'm not sure how hot this topic can get... :confused: so feel free to lock ASAP if it needs be.

graemlins/boring.gif

I am also impressed with the times some of these small block guys here are turning. Like you said, Eric68, Brian and also Gary gmpp I think was 11.1 with a vortec head 350. I believe there is another fellow here with a 65,with a 383 stroker that is now in the 10's. Man those boys are flying. Congrats to you guys graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Jerry

Some people like vanilla and some like chocolate. Not that either is wrong by any means. Some guys like Big blocks, and some like small blocks. My nova with a small block runs 12.3 right now with a 1971 GM head and too little stall. Hopefully when i get rid of the boat anchors and get my 5000 stall I hopefully will be turning low 11's also. Is this with pump gas? no is this with a dual plane? no Because I wanted it my way...like Burger King. I love the sound of my 1400rpm racey idle, and i love all the heads that turn when people hear me before they see me, i love the pete jackson whine at 7500 rpms. Could i of gone faster with a less radical Small Block? Yes of course, Motor Martyr is proof of that. I just didnt want to...flat out. There is nothing wrong with the BSE combo or my combo. Mine is far from 100% street friendly, but thats what I want.
I joined this right at the end of the Ed Banning deal, and from what i got from it...no offence to anyone...I dont think there is anything wrong with Ed, or anyone that dislikes him. Everyone wants to go fast...its up to you how you get there.
Ed

"nuff said" ;)

SSchevy400, Nice Nova!

Last i heard of the guy he was just about banned from here,bad additude or something.

Taylor, If your wondering why the BSE draws the attention that it does, maybe I can help you out. There are an infinite number of ways to put together a engine. Some have tried, were not happy with the results. Try, try, again ($$$$$$). That's what I was worried about when I decided to build a BBC. I new that I wanted a streetable car that would also perform well at the track. You know, heavy car, pump gas, good manners, haul ass, proven combo. I folllowed Ed's advice as closely as I could. I did not match the build exactly, made do with the 049 heads in hand, existing pistons, already bought carb. I feel like I built a BSE, if not an exact match it is a BSE in theory. Something you should know..........I was not what I would consider to be "KNOWED UP" on how to build an engine. I sought out someone that I had confidence in, some one who offered experience. Ed has attitude, some like, some dont. Attitude is something everyone has, if not it would be a pretty boring planet. I can say a few things about Ed /BSE. He offers consistant advice. He knows bracket racing. The BSE is a complete package, and it performs well. I am happy with what I ended up with, a car that's gonna go 11's and a few new friends. :cool:

There is more then one way to skin a cat. IMO Ed simply will not admit that there is any other way to be fast except his way and that fact mixed with his attitude turns into trouble. It did here and it does on other boards. For the record I agree with alot of his theories, but like I said... there is more then one way to fly.

Ed's car with race only suspension (not drivable on the street)... big money converter... $1,000 carb... and who knows how much into his heads/manifold... is just one way to make a car fly. And fly it does!

The sbc vs. bbc debate is a good one. I'm a small block guy running a big block. If I could use a stock casting block with a sbc and have it be reliable with 700+ hp I would still have one under the hood. Unfortunetly shelling out 3 grand for a block wasn't in the cards for me. The 18 degree heads have opened alot of doors for big hp sbc's... as has the use of turbo's and efi. In the end it all depends how fast you want to go, for how much, and if you want to drive it on the street.

Ed's most valuable contribution, was that he proved you don't need expensive after market heads to run pretty dang quick.
Among other things like a factory light weight bolt in radiator. I don't think he was the first, but he did share all the part numbers, and it was a lot less money than an after market part.
He'd tell you what springs and shocks worked.

What was or wasn't worth E.T.

He was a big proponent of only spending money on the stuff that would really make your car quick, not just look the part.

But he was a goof to people who didn't agree with him. He took it all to personally and got into heated battles with people, and could'nt let it go.

He was always nice to me, but I didn't really like the way, he'd continue battling with people, long after the dust should've settled.

But to say his cars performance isn't impressive, seems more like pay back for personality conflicts than fact.

Ed believes in the K.I.S.S. method, along with high torque to get these heavyweights moving. You can't argue with his performance,and there are others doing it different ways. Low 10's @ 3900 lbs is quite an accomplishment,who wouldnt want to copy that recipe????????? for the smallblock guys,its a giant step from your low 11's to low 10's in a heavyweight street car. I would venture to say that most of you mid/low 11 smallblocks are not using iron G.M. heads in a 3900 lb. chevelle. Most are Novas and Camaros.

I've always just looked at it as a proven motor combination, something that can be pretty elusive if you're putting stuff together yourself. Having a proven combo, which he freely shared, is a great start.

Those small block combos are very impressive also - maybe we should nickname them as well.

Yup, I coined the phrase and BEGGED him to stop by TC more often and share his combo during a phone call. I had no idea I was inviting Hitler to a Bar Mitzvah. Great engineering, but couldnt control his alter ego in any public forum. Started talking about followers, supporters, detractors to give you a sense of mindset here. Too odd and out there to participate in a civil public forum. More into aggrandizement than advice. Too bad. Seemed like a decent guy in person.

Some day I hope to buy Bob West a beer for inadvertetly raising the hair on his back over all of that. I'm sure glad its done and gone.

Xtreme, I have already coined a phrase for those sbc's, when Marooned's 1st iteration appeared....

RATTKILLER graemlins/waving.gif


Have a great weekend y'all! And no hard feelings.....

Marooned has a pretty hot small block, introduced it to Pontiac, Michigan's finest boys in blue. :D

OH DO TELL!

Sometimes it's the person that reads the comments that has the problems but i guess Ed P.O.'ed lots of people. Censorship seems a tick intolerent to me no matter who's doing it? P.S... LeoP, who is marooned? Cute quip about the Bar Mitzvah, L88427. You can't please all the people, all of the time!

Stupid question. What does BSE stand for? Anyone have some killer streetable SBC combonations they would like to share? I'm always looking for new ideas.

-Ben

Bigley Special Engine is what I've been told.

Heres the deal, 10.20's in a 3,900 lb pump gas chevelle is fast as hell no matter how you do it. And to do it with factory iron heads is the icing on the cake. Ive also heard that guys go alot faster out there in jersey cause of the track elevation and such, maybe its worth a few tenths who knows, im not down with the whole corrected times for altitude thing. bottom line is ED's fast, he knows it, and is more than willing to share his knowledge, BUT if you disagree with him or question his theories be ready for an arguement....and i mean an arguement that could go on for 75 pages and 35,000 hits, or what ever it was over on the BTE converters site... im not exagerating.

Nick,
NJ is no quicker then anywhere else, ed's gone to Cecil county MD, Numedia, Delmar Delaware, Lebennon Valley, and more, and the ET's are generally close.
I'll see what i can do about getting exact numbers, but keep in mind, the people telling you that NJ tracks are soooo much faster are ethier trying to discredit ed and myself, or they are from Denver.

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate :D

I think people dont give themselves enough credit. I swear people put iron oval heads and 1-3/4" headers on their BBC and call it a BSE. Give me a break. Its your engine, take credit for it. Unless you built an engine 100% to his spec, or he builds a combo for you, its your own engine and you should be proud. I think almost everyone takes ideas from other peoples combos or suggestions, and with Ed's combo being so successful, its a good one to pick some from. When people get help from several sources, how come you dont here about a "BSE, GM, Car Craft, Hot Rod, Comp Cams, 5 different TC member" BBC/SBC engine?

Englishtown is without a doubt one of the fastest tracks in North America, and probably the world. The lap records that take place their speak for themself.

I still think Ed's best E.T., at least what was listed under the picture of his car when you could access it on the Prestage Board was 10.37 @ 126.8 MPH. Believe me thats about all the E.T. you can get out of 127 MPH trap speed in a 3860 lb. Chevelle.

You have to give Ed credit where it’s due. His Chevelle has excellent short times. But I’m not overly impressed with the overall power of his BSE bbc. A few years ago, our 385 sbc was 11.5:1 cr with off the shelf AFR heads and was running 126+. At 3500#, that’s about 50 hp less than Ed, but with 83 less cubic inches. And, this was also a licensed, insured, street/NHRA/IHRA legal car, driven on the street with pump gas.

If you really want to follow a pattern for maximum power from a pump gas motor, check out some of the engines built for Popular Hot Rodding’s Engine Master’s Challenge.

383Malibu...what heads did you have on that 385 motor? what cam ?

Bunch of bbc Chevelle's running ten's, so what. Now what I what to know is how the Pontiac, MI police department were introduced to the RatKiller! Now that is worthy of a thread!

Maybe Mr. Norman can spill the beans, and share his combo for the inquiring minds that want to know.

Originally posted by BigRed-L72:
383Malibu...what heads did you have on that 385 motor? what cam ? AFR 220s
275/281@.050", .739"/.709", 114 lsa, 114 icl
Dart/Wilson intake w/Holley 750 dp
1 3/4" headers w/3" Flowmasters
Richmond 5-speed w/McLeod Softlok clutch

Originally posted by -SS454-:
I think people dont give themselves enough credit. I swear people put iron oval heads and 1-3/4" headers on their BBC and call it a BSE. Give me a break. Its your engine, take credit for it. Unless you built an engine 100% to his spec, or he builds a combo for you, its your own engine and you should be proud. I think almost everyone takes ideas from other peoples combos or suggestions, and with Ed's combo being so successful, its a good one to pick some from. When people get help from several sources, how come you dont here about a "BSE, GM, Car Craft, Hot Rod, Comp Cams, 5 different TC member" BBC/SBC engine?

Englishtown is without a doubt one of the fastest tracks in North America, and probably the world. The lap records that take place their speak for themself. the Pro Stock record, and previous records at Etown were made simply because the event was in the early spring, when the weather is great!

Originally posted by 383Malibu:
You have to give Ed credit where it’s due. His Chevelle has excellent short times. But I’m not overly impressed with the overall power of his BSE bbc. A few years ago, our 385 sbc was 11.5:1 cr with off the shelf AFR heads and was running 126+. At 3500#, that’s about 50 hp less than Ed, but with 83 less cubic inches. And, this was also a licensed, insured, street/NHRA/IHRA legal car, driven on the street with pump gas.

If you really want to follow a pattern for maximum power from a pump gas motor, check out some of the engines built for Popular Hot Rodding’s Engine Master’s Challenge. Turning How many RPM's? With what gears??

Less then 6800 with 4.10s???

A popular hot rodding motor ran like 13:1 compression and like 23X @ .050 cam, DEFINATELY not what id be doing for a street motor on pump gas, how he got away with it... i dont know, but i bet it wouldnt last 2 days on the street

Originally posted by Motor Martyr:
Turning How many RPM's? With what gears??

Less then 6800 with 4.10s??? Shifting at 7500 and running 4.88 gears.

Nickel333 - I agree that 13:1 is way over the edge for living on pump gas, but not all of those engines were that extreme. As for the 23x@.050"... we ran a cam at 25x@.050" on the street every day for about 5 years with no problems.

3500lbs is Not 3900lbs
7500rpms, and 4.88 gears, street car? Plates dont make it a street car!

This one has plates: Is it a street car? Its an awsome RACE car, but the plates are for show.
http://www.hobbystage.net/camaro/camaroracer/1078701091-003422.jpg

I use 4.66 gears and mine is a street car..... I drive it about 8000 miles a year, including 75 miles each way to the dragstrip. I just don't cruise at 85...more like 60-65.

Steep gears may mean it's not a daily driven grocery getter, but doesn't mean its not a street car.

gotta spin those smallblocks to the moon,steep gears,and aftermarket heads to keep up with the big blocks graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by Motor Martyr:
3500lbs is Not 3900lbs
7500rpms, and 4.88 gears, street car? Plates dont make it a street car!

This one has plates: Is it a street car? Its an awsome RACE car, but the plates are for show.Brian - And, 385 ci is Not 468 ci (I already covered both those points in my original post).
I agree that plates don't make a car a street car... and we all know that everyone has their opinion about what is "streetable". Regardless, our Malibu was not only registered, it was driven on the street regularly and back and forth to the track. BTW, it was very comfortable cruising at 65 - 70 mph (about 3700 - 4000 rpm) and got about 8 - 10 mpg as long as you kept your foot out of it.

Brian, How fast is the light green 71 or 72 Chevelle in your picture with the big hood and do you know his combo? Nice car.

Mid 7's, and an ultra quick 8 contender at Atco, and he regularly wins the competitions.

Harold, what is your email?

More interesting than I thought it would be.

Brian & Roger, you both make valid points IMO. Frankly, a person can "spin" their combo to look like a superior set-up because its rare that any 2 cars are exactly alike. Because of that I like to keep it simple when comparing 2 cars. Here's what I look at:

Whats the lbs/ci?
Pump gas/Race gas?
Tappet type?

That gives a good foundation for comparison in my mind. Who cares what gear or rpm you run at as long as it matches the combo.

Robert, so what if a small block has to be "spun to the moon". It should be obvious by now that big blocks can still break, even when shifted under 6800rpm running a 4.10.

Originally posted by 427L88:
Now what I what to know is how the Pontiac, MI police department were introduced to the RatKiller! Now that is worthy of a thread!
I do believe it stemmed from a little "tire heating episode" at the Woodward cruise. There was a thread about it some weeks ago in Bench Racing - even included a video of the activity that provoked the good law enforcers of Pontiac, MI.

Oh, and to keep this on track: I'm in favor of any combo that can go fast cheaply. You wait and see...I'm on to a good one.
I read a lot of Ed's posts. It seemed that he had great advice and was willing to share it, but he did not take any sort of criticism or even questioning well at all. It was unfortunate. He had a lot to offer and seemed to be a nice individual under the right circumstances.

Brian....4.88's are a great street gear.....if your running a stick with an overdrive. TKO600 has a .64 5th gear. 70 mph is probably about 2500 RPM
Chalk one up for the stickshift boys :D

383...i know not all of them were of that nature but i think that was the winner and you see where im coming from here. I run a much too big 268/278@.050 cam right now with 11.1:1 comp. on 89 octane, on the street and track, drove it from good ol' Waterloo all the way up to car craft in St.Paul, drove to and from the show, cruised all weekend and drove home without a hitch. Street car is a state of mind, and a measure of what you can put up with... Many here on this site would say Brian's 4.10 gears make his car a race car, i would disagree with them but its all a matter of opinion.

Nickel... I can relate. We drove our Malibu on the street for about 10 years and started with 4.10 gears and gradually worked up to the current 5.00 gears. If it weren't for the clutchless 5-speed, we'd probably still be driving it on the street.

Originally posted by CaptCrunch:
There is more then one way to skin a cat. IMO Ed simply will not admit that there is any other way to be fast except his way and that fact mixed with his attitude turns into trouble. Well said. there is more than one way to skin a cat and while I respect Ed's ride for what it is, I've taken a lot of heat from Ed and his minions over the last couple years because I do things my way . . . aluminum heads, single plane intake, 1-3/4" headers, etc.

It's amazing that people can have so much in common and still be at each others throats over something as stupid as oval vs rect port heads . . . or iron vs aluminum . . . single vs dual plane . . . 1-5/8" vs 1-3/4" headers . . .

Thanks for the compliment Soccerguy -- if I can get this puppy to hook hard this fall, I may just see a low 11 sec run . . . maybe even a high 10 if I get REAL lucky . . . ;)

. . . and BTW since the addition of the roll bar my Camaro weighs 3580# race weight -- kinda porky for a Camaro, but I do drive it a couple thousand miles a summer and kept the full stock interior (incl back seats for the kids) . . . LOL

I have to comment on a couple things. I'm not on anyone's side, just stating what I know.

I've raced the same car at 5800'- Denver, 5200'- Albuquerque, 3000'- Tucson, 1200'- Oklahoma city, 1300'- 2 tracks Phoenix. I don't know the DA. Out of all of them the best time was 10.23 and the worst was 10.90. Average gain/loss per 1000' was a little more than a tenth.
http://www.geocities.com/lonnie67_1966/vega.html

How much "lower" is NJ? 500ft? .06

No one can say "that's not a street car" there is no definition. I have a very good friend that has a 68 Mustang with a 289 +.030, 4.87 gears. He doesn't drive it much anymore but used to drive it all the time. It's registered and insured. He regularly hit 8000rpm +. 260 @.050 Comp street roller, Dart 197 heads. 4 speed. Spool. He hasn't been to the track in over 10 years and only took it once. 12.59 @ 111.9 at 5200ft, with a bog on slicks. http://www.geocities.com/lonnie67_1966/carl.html

Is it a street car? That's all it is.