Why is the price for Diesel $.68 more a gallon (Hess) when:
Ø You get more gallons of Diesel then gas out of a barrel of crude oil
Ø Diesel is cheaper to refine (including the filtration to produce Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel)
Ø Petroleum supplies are higher now in the US then they have been in a long time.
Ø Why has Diesel prices raise $.30 a gallon in the last two weeks
One off the biggest questions here is what this is going to do to inflation. As you know just about everything in the US is hauled by truck at some point. The snowball effect of these prices will make the current Economic Stimulus package a mute point.

Pictures taken at Herrema’s Marketplace 125 Pattenwood Road, Rochester, and Hess Dewy Ave, Rochester 11:30 AM 02/07/2008
Write your Congressmen and Senetors. This is part of the letter I have written.

I don't think congress should control prices on anything. It's basically supply and demand. Just a thought. :yes:

in socal, more than a 1/3 of the price of a gallon of deisel is tax.

I don't think congress should control prices on anything. It's basically supply and demand. Just a thought. :yes:

Higher taxes on diesel perhaps?

Price controls are a poor way to handle high prices. The free market is a self-regulating apparatus, when it is allowed to be. High demand equates to high prices, which in turn will equate to higher supply (because there is more money to be made, more production occurs) which in turn results in lower prices. Artificially low prices do nothing except increase demand and restrict supply, which in turn creates a problem which only gets worse the more the government tries to keep the price low. All that will happen if the government steps in with gas price controls is we will see long lines of people waiting at gas stations that have no gas. When the controls are finally taken off, the price soars because of the restricted supply. We are seeing this right now with the banks. There is a shortage of credit (a "liquidity crunch" as the media likes to say) that was caused by the artificially low price (interest rates). The only reason interest rates haven't soared is because the government continues to keep the rates low. But interest rates will rise, they have to.

Mkes me wish I was still in the roc, Glenn. lower taxes and gas prices in monroe county compared to erie.

Higher taxes on diesel perhaps?.

Plus increasing demand as diesel cars become more popular both here and worldwide. I'd guess the switch to lower sulpher versions probably required refinery modifications too

The Economic Stimulus package is a moot point!!! I won't be getting mine until late September....

The tax part would make sense. Trucks do 90 percent of the damage to roads and use most of the diesel (i think??) so that makes sense. I have a Jeep with a diesel in it. It get's about 24-25MPG.

You guys are better off than us here in Canada. In Alberta here where we are pumping oil out of the ground everywhere regular gas is now about $4.20 a gallon. :(
They have said this spring they wouldn't be surprised if it hits $1.40 a liter.
That would make it about $5.60 for your gallon

I don't think congress should control prices on anything. It's basically supply and demand. Just a thought. :yes:

IMHO it's about pure profit. How can the oil companies sit back and continue to say it's not? They are posting record profits ($10 billion a quarter?) while we just keep paying. Like others have said -- the price will continue to rise until it reaches a point that nobody is willing to pay for it. The oil barons don't care what it's doing to the economy because they are making money hand over fist right now. When their profits start to fall, that's when they will be concerned. That's when they will come crying to the government that they need help to stay afloat and that if they don't get help when they ask for it, they will simply stop production for any and every reason they can get away with. The answer is to make oil obsolete by replacing it with something renewable that can be produced by anyone who cares to do so -- it's the "pay me now or pay me later" problem.

Dave

mute [ myoot (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=mute) ]

adjective Definition: 1. not speaking: unwilling or unable to speak

2. making no sound: saying nothing, or making no sound

moot [ moot (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=moot) ]

adjective Definition: 1. arguable: open to argument or dispute
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifWhether nutritional supplements are beneficial is a moot question.

2. not relevant: irrelevant or unimportant
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifIf they refuse to compromise, mediation is a moot issue.

mute [ myoot (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=mute) ]

adjective Definition: 1. not speaking: unwilling or unable to speak

2. making no sound: saying nothing, or making no sound

moot [ moot (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=moot) ]

adjective Definition: 1. arguable: open to argument or dispute
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifWhether nutritional supplements are beneficial is a moot question.

2. not relevant: irrelevant or unimportant
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifIf they refuse to compromise, mediation is a moot issue.
I guess I should be more carful of whom I copy........ You are a god; I felt so bad that I corrected it.... The guilt was unbearable !!!

Why is the price for Diesel $.68 more a gallon (Hess) when:
Ø You get more gallons of Diesel then gas out of a barrel of crude oil
Ø Diesel is cheaper to refine (including the filtration to produce Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel)
Ø Petroleum supplies are higher now in the US then they have been in a long time.
Ø Why has Diesel prices raise $.30 a gallon in the last two weeks
One off the biggest questions here is what this is going to do to inflation. As you know just about everything in the US is hauled by truck at some point. The snowball effect of these prices will make the current Economic Stimulus package a mute point.

Pictures taken at Herrema’s Marketplace 125 Pattenwood Road, Rochester, and Hess Dewy Ave, Rochester 11:30 AM 02/07/2008
Write your Congressmen and Senetors. This is part of the letter I have written.

why, why, you wanna know why,,, well , I'll tell ya why

home heating fuel (diesel) is not taxed and is 319ish a gallon..
so the taxed over the road fuel has to me more.. or ,people would know just how much they are rape'n us...
like we don't know,, but, that be why...
oh and it's offical..
cude oil prices are NOT BECAUSE OF DEMAND,
it's the futures market driving the price up..
they finally came out and said, what I've been say'n for the last few years...
blame the stockmarket, futures

I surprised at the responses here!

I guess my point was missed. I was not talking about the price, but the difference in price between gas and diesel. Diesel is cheaper to produce, there is less demand for it and more supply at the moment, but the price is 67 cents higher a gallon, and has risen 30 cents in the last two weeks?????????????????????????????

IMHO it's about pure profit. How can the oil companies sit back and continue to say it's not? They are posting record profits ($10 billion a quarter?) while we just keep paying. Like others have said -- the price will continue to rise until it reaches a point that nobody is willing to pay for it. The oil barons don't care what it's doing to the economy because they are making money hand over fist right now. When their profits start to fall, that's when they will be concerned. That's when they will come crying to the government that they need help to stay afloat and that if they don't get help when they ask for it, they will simply stop production for any and every reason they can get away with. The answer is to make oil obsolete by replacing it with something renewable that can be produced by anyone who cares to do so -- it's the "pay me now or pay me later" problem.

Dave

I agree. :yes:

Since we are talking about money, I just read a news report about how the government will be sending us all notices that we will be getting a rebate check from the IRS. Not the actual rebate. No. Just that we will be getting one around May. This notice they are sending us (like we don't already know about it from the news) is going to cost............$42,000,000.

It's basically supply and demand.

I am not an economist, but the "Supply and Demand" argument doesn't make sense to me...

When is the last time anyone here saw a gas station run out of fuel???

When is the last time anyone has seen a "real" shortage?

It seems to me that the supply is still equal to, or greater than the demand...

It seems more manipulation and "speculation." OPEC countries manipulate their output to raise the prices...

And THEN, it seems to me (can you say "record profits"?) that the Oil companies also mark it up a bit more than they used to ( to make more profit, while still blaming the "market"...


In my area, I have seen the price increase roughly 350%+ in the past 6-8 years... I remember back around 2000 gas was under $1.00/gallon, now its $3.50+/gallon... Actual supply of crude and refined gas didn't really decrease (at least to the point it really effected the "supply") , and while everything increased in price, not even the booming housing market increased as rapidly as oil prices...

When the refineries in the Gulf coast are shut down, it still effects the West Coast prices, even though we don't use their gas... Really, the price should drop, because those refineries aren't using the oil, and therefore there should be an excess supply on the market... But it just doesn't happen...



And another thing... Aren't these prices due to middlemen trading oil on the open market? Why don't the big oil companies buy DIRECTLY from the OPEC members? They obviously have the capital, and could cut out the middleman (more profit with lower consumer costs)...



While I don't totally agree with the government getting involved with setting the price, when oil companies are making huige profits, it makes me wonder why one company doesn't drop their price (less profit per gallon, but MORE product sold, and start to drive the others out of business or create a "price war")... It seems to me that there is some sort of collusion between the oil companies...

Since we are talking about money, I just read a news report about how the government will be sending us all notices that we will be getting a rebate check from the IRS. Not the actual rebate. No. Just that we will be getting one around May. This notice they are sending us (like we don't already know about it from the news) is going to cost............$42,000,000.

I got mine today (the notice) Says I might get a redate

These rebate checks are bull***** !
If the government really wanted to fix the economy they would fix the ridiculous fuel prices and that would take care of everything else.

I surprised at the responses here!

I guess my point was missed. I was not talking about the price, but the difference in price between gas and diesel. Diesel is cheaper to produce, there is less demand for it and more supply at the moment, but the price is 67 cents higher a gallon, and has risen 30 cents in the last two weeks?????????????????????????????

Diesel & gas swapped places a few years back... as refineries were expanded or re-tooled they opted for gas capacity rather than diesel capacity. I suspect the [then] impending ULSD stuff was a bit of an unknown, but gas blending was a known deal. Once supply got tight price went up, has stayed up and will stay up. Diesel is more inelastic price-wise. You can't quit farming or trucking as easily as you can take a bus to work or combine trips in the family wagon. Diesel is the fuel of business and gas the fuel of leisure in a way.

I don't know where you got the "less demand more supply" from, but I do know the quality of the demand is firmer for diesel, and so does big oil. ;)

Additionally, like Kurt said, globally diesel is booming. Europeans dig diesel cars, Chinamen dig diesel fired GDP growth. If you want diesel cheaper than gas, just run red, and don't get caught...

I'll put it this way.. Just bend over and drop your pants:yes:

They are posting record profits ($10 billion a quarter?) while we just keep paying.

when oil companies are making huige profits, it


Here is something I posted before:

""As stated before, I don't see anyone fighting to sell off their 401's or other retirement plans. Nearly ALL packaged investements have a considerable amount of oil industry investment. Not only that, but MOST of the profits that the oil companies are making are off of Plastics which includ a lot of other chemicals including paint not fuel. Besides, every year there are more and more cars on the road, so why wouldn't more fuel being bough corrolate into more profits. More cars = more fuel consumed. For the amount of gasoline/diesel is being used (billions of gallons) only cents need to be made as profit on each gallon.

"...the more than 70 million bottles of water consumed each day in the U.S. drain 1.5 million barrels of oil over the course of one year."
http://www.thegreenguide.com/doc/121/bottle

"Each year, 29 billion plastic water bottles are produced for use in the United States, according to the Earth Policy Institute, an environmental organization in Washington, D.C. Manufacturing them requires the equivalent of 17 million barrels of crude oil"

http://scienceline.org/2008/02/11/as...liata-plastic/ (http://scienceline.org/2008/02/11/ask-intagliata-plastic/)
So to hit them in the pocket book, we would have to stop buying things with plastic in it, and nothing painted. It has been beat to death, gasoline is NOT a high profit comodity, but at the volumne it is sold, it doesn't have to be. Think about anything totally plastic you have ever bought.

The most common plastic resin (HDPE) can be as low as $0.38/LB. PET which is what bottles are mad of are $0.45/LB We pay a redemption of 5-15 cents a bottle for sodas or water (which is a huge racket). For those in the scientific field, a washer bottle made of plastic sells for as much as $6.50 a piece. There is a whole lot of mark up there for a bottle that weights 0.12lbs. At that price it would be $54.17 a lb, a 12,040% mark-up just on the plastic itself anyone think gas has that much markup?

Better stop buying plastics, or anything related to plastics, or polymer supported products.

The oil companies are addicted to our money...bottom line

Not all that long ago, around the time of an OPEC production meeting, a Saudi prince was asked about the rising price of oil. He responded that production had been looked into, and that it was determined that there was no supply problem - but that the U.S. oil futures market was the issue. In the same article the report was that just Chase(?) alone had some $80 billion at play in the oil futures market. Hmmm...

Thomas

I've been around trucking long enough to have seen diesel go from $0.14 per gallon to the current $3.69 per gallon around here. Here's why I feel the cost of diesel is so much higher than gasoline.

This is my view concerning the DIFFERENCE between gas/diesel prices, not why the price is so high to begin with.

The oil companies need X amount of profit after expenses to satisfy their shareholders, and to invest in future exploration and development. They need a certain amount of profit from each gallon of refined product.

Even though there are fewer trucks than cars, the truck's fuel mileage, miles traveled, and capacity provide the gallonage volume necessary to offset their lesser numbers. In other words, since my fleet average is 6.3 mpg, my fleet averages 2850 miles per unit per week, and we carry 250 gallons of fuel, we buy more fuel more often that the average auto motorist.

The market will only bear so much before the non-trucking public begins screaming to their elected government officials and news media asking for price controls. Everyone involved knows that price controls will be a disaster in the long run.

The oil companies figured out that if they raised the price of diesel $0.25-$0.50 higher than it really needs to be, and keep the gasoline prices a few cents lower than it should be, the average Joe won't scream so loudly. They'll still get all the necessary profit and, most likely, even more above that. So, they take most of the necessary profit plus their desired extra from diesel, and then price gasoline just low enough to try and keep the non-trucking public from demanding legislation.

They and the government don't give a rat's a** if truckers scream to their officials and media, because who'll listen to a bunch of dumb ol' truckers. There's fewer of us than there are motorists, so that means fewer votes lost if we're upset instead of the public. The public and government view us as scum of the Earth anyway, and feel we should be removed from their highways.

JMHO from a lifetime of trucking.:)


Randy


(P.S. You haven't heard one peep from the federal, state, or local governments about lowering or removing the taxes on fuel, have you? No, that would be REAL economic stimulus!)

I've been around trucking long enough to have seen diesel go from $0.14 per gallon to the current $3.69 per gallon around here. Here's why I feel the cost of diesel is so much higher than gasoline.

This is my view concerning the DIFFERENCE between gas/diesel prices, not why the price is so high to begin with.

The oil companies need X amount of profit after expenses to satisfy their shareholders, and to invest in future exploration and development. They need a certain amount of profit from each gallon of refined product.

Even though there are fewer trucks than cars, the truck's fuel mileage, miles traveled, and capacity provide the gallonage volume necessary to offset their lesser numbers. In other words, since my fleet average is 6.3 mpg, my fleet averages 2850 miles per unit per week, and we carry 250 gallons of fuel, we buy more fuel more often that the average auto motorist.

The market will only bear so much before the non-trucking public begins screaming to their elected government officials and news media asking for price controls. Everyone involved knows that price controls will be a disaster in the long run.

The oil companies figured out that if they raised the price of diesel $0.25-$0.50 higher than it really needs to be, and keep the gasoline prices a few cents lower than it should be, the average Joe won't scream so loudly. They'll still get all the necessary profit and, most likely, even more above that. So, they take most of the necessary profit plus their desired extra from diesel, and then price gasoline just low enough to try and keep the non-trucking public from demanding legislation.

They and the government don't give a rat's a** if truckers scream to their officials and media, because who'll listen to a bunch of dumb ol' truckers. There's fewer of us than there are motorists, so that means fewer votes lost if we're upset instead of the public. The public and government view us as scum of the Earth anyway, and feel we should be removed from their highways.

JMHO from a lifetime of trucking.:)


Randy


(P.S. You haven't heard one peep from the federal, state, or local governments about lowering or removing the taxes on fuel, have you? No, that would be REAL economic stimulus!)

Well said Randy. My Dad spends $1,300+ per week on diesel hauling freight, or whatever else needs to get from point A to point B. I find it amazing how many people complain about increases in consumer goods prices, but don't make the connection to the primary source of those increases -- rising fuel costs.

Dave
:beers:

It shocks me how many here think these petroleum companies are making record profits off of the fuel. Do you realize every single thing you use that is plastic or vinyl also uses petroleum in it? How about those asphalt roads, or asphalt drag strips we all want more off? Had a new roof put on recently? Asphalt shingles? Hmm.......you have oil sitting on your roof.

Petroleum companies are making record profits because damn near everything we use contains petroleum in some fashion.

Jeff

I don't think congress should control prices on anything. It's basically supply and demand. Just a thought. :yes:

Yeah?????????? where's the competition??? It seems that the oil company's kind of have a monopoly. Here in California there used to be alot of independent station owners and now, well....................... Don't know of any that aren't owned by the oil company.

The Economic Stimulus package is a moot point!!! I won't be getting mine until late September....

You know, borrow money from the chineeeeeeeze and give it to the oil producing countries.

You guys are better off than us here in Canada. In Alberta here where we are pumping oil out of the ground everywhere regular gas is now about $4.20 a gallon. :(
They have said this spring they wouldn't be surprised if it hits $1.40 a liter.
That would make it about $5.60 for your gallon

How much of your prices per gallon are taxes?

Here is something I posted before:

""As stated before, I don't see anyone fighting to sell off their 401's or other retirement plans. Nearly ALL packaged investements have a considerable amount of oil industry investment. Not only that, but MOST of the profits that the oil companies are making are off of Plastics which includ a lot of other chemicals including paint not fuel. Besides, every year there are more and more cars on the road, so why wouldn't more fuel being bough corrolate into more profits. More cars = more fuel consumed. For the amount of gasoline/diesel is being used (billions of gallons) only cents need to be made as profit on each gallon.

"...the more than 70 million bottles of water consumed each day in the U.S. drain 1.5 million barrels of oil over the course of one year."
http://www.thegreenguide.com/doc/121/bottle

"Each year, 29 billion plastic water bottles are produced for use in the United States, according to the Earth Policy Institute, an environmental organization in Washington, D.C. Manufacturing them requires the equivalent of 17 million barrels of crude oil"

http://scienceline.org/2008/02/11/as...liata-plastic/ (http://scienceline.org/2008/02/11/ask-intagliata-plastic/)
So to hit them in the pocket book, we would have to stop buying things with plastic in it, and nothing painted. It has been beat to death, gasoline is NOT a high profit comodity, but at the volumne it is sold, it doesn't have to be. Think about anything totally plastic you have ever bought.

The most common plastic resin (HDPE) can be as low as $0.38/LB. PET which is what bottles are mad of are $0.45/LB We pay a redemption of 5-15 cents a bottle for sodas or water (which is a huge racket). For those in the scientific field, a washer bottle made of plastic sells for as much as $6.50 a piece. There is a whole lot of mark up there for a bottle that weights 0.12lbs. At that price it would be $54.17 a lb, a 12,040% mark-up just on the plastic itself anyone think gas has that much markup?

Better stop buying plastics, or anything related to plastics, or polymer supported products.

I said this before, sand is more plentiful and we used to get all of our money back from the deposit. Use glass containers. Plastic is obviously cheaper to make but the tree huggers want a profit from it. Why do people always make a big deal to protect big oil price gouging and a bigger deal over someone getting a raise.

Yeah?????????? where's the competition??? It seems that the oil company's kind of have a monopoly. Here in California there used to be alot of independent station owners and now, well....................... Don't know of any that aren't owned by the oil company.

You should move out of California then. Around here, pretty much every gas station is independently owned. They all pick which fuel supplier is going to give them the best service and prices, but they are still independently owned. Actually the company my dad and I used to co own had a commercial real estate division and our real estate agents specialized in selling convience stores.

I would be willing to bet the vast majority in California are also independently owned yet as well.

Jeff

I plan to move out of California, I just can't afford the gas to leave. We spend more time sitting on the freeway's than driving and while there may still be "some" independent station owners, more are not and those who are usually aren't from around here...... If you know what I mean.

one of the things that are driving oil prices up is that China is sucking-up ALL natural resources at an alarming rate, which in turn increases the demand on the world market. The United States is actually down on oil consumption from the past, the oil companies profit margin is only 10%, but the volume is so great.

it is a vicious cycle, and it is not going to end, and as China continues to grow, it will only get worse

OPEC could increase oil production, but why would they, it's money out of their pockets

Only my opinion

Why is the price for Diesel $.68 more a gallon


why?? its because they can and they will, and people will still pay the price.
i honestly don't think anyone even congress should be able to tell the oil companies lower your price or else..
its not that demand is greater than supply, but rather peoples' demand for fuel supports higher prices. and i think diesel has its own demand. more and more vehicles are running on diesel now too.

Well said Randy. My Dad spends $1,300+ per week on diesel hauling freight, or whatever else needs to get from point A to point B. I find it amazing how many people complain about increases in consumer goods prices, but don't make the connection to the primary source of those increases -- rising fuel costs.

Dave
:beers:

Exactly.

Take a look at a package of Twinkies, for example.

The farmer that grows the wheat that is used to make the flour uses fuel to plant and harvest the wheat.

The truck or train that takes the grain to the mill uses fuel.

The mill that converts grain to flour uses electricity, generated many times by fuel oil or natural gas or coal.

The flour is transported by train and truck to the bakery. More fuel.

The bakery uses electricity and natural gas to bake the flour into product. More fuel.

The plastic used in the wrapper uses petroleum in it's chemical makeup.

Transporting the wrappers to the bakery requires trucks and fuel.

Once the Twinkies are baked, trucks haul them to distribution centers. More fuel.

From the distribution center, they move to the local store. More fuel.

This goes on with ALL component parts that are used to produce ANYTHING! That's why rising fuel costs affect food prices.

If you took away everything that at one point in it's process involved fuel or oil for movement or processing, you'd be sitting barea** naked on an unimproved vacant lot!

Think about that!


Randy

I surprised at the responses here!

I guess my point was missed. I was not talking about the price, but the difference in price between gas and diesel. Diesel is cheaper to produce, there is less demand for it and more supply at the moment, but the price is 67 cents higher a gallon, and has risen 30 cents in the last two weeks?????????????????????????????


it's not cold and homes use'n it right now

If you took away everything that at one point in it's process involved fuel or oil for movement or processing, you'd be sitting barea** naked on an unimproved vacant lot!

Think about that!


Randy

While this is true for today, it is not true forever. Petroleum really has only come into the market full force over the last 100 to 115 years maybe. Most things before that were made by fire and hands. Thats when products held up and things were made with pride. People were held accountable for what they produced. Today it just takes a bit more electricity and fuel to produce another product to replace the one that just broke. I wish I were born back when men were men and the work for a day actually meant something.

Jeff

The Economic Stimulus package is a moot point!!! I won't be getting mine until late September....

How do you know when you are getting it?

I am not an economist, but the "Supply and Demand" argument doesn't make sense to me...

When is the last time anyone here saw a gas station run out of fuel???

When is the last time anyone has seen a "real" shortage?

It seems to me that the supply is still equal to, or greater than the demand...



I think the oil companies would say the reason there is no shortage is because prices are high. Lower prices, demand goes up and you get your shortage.

You can either have all you can afford to buy at $3.50/gal. or, if prices were lowered, whatever you are allowed to buy for less than $3.50/gal.

Demand equals supply due to price.

That would be their story anyway.

Exactly.

Take a look at a package of Twinkies, for example.

The farmer that grows the wheat that is used to make the flour uses fuel to plant and harvest the wheat.

The truck or train that takes the grain to the mill uses fuel.

The mill that converts grain to flour uses electricity, generated many times by fuel oil or natural gas or coal.

The flour is transported by train and truck to the bakery. More fuel.

The bakery uses electricity and natural gas to bake the flour into product. More fuel.

The plastic used in the wrapper uses petroleum in it's chemical makeup.

Transporting the wrappers to the bakery requires trucks and fuel.

Once the Twinkies are baked, trucks haul them to distribution centers. More fuel.

From the distribution center, they move to the local store. More fuel.

This goes on with ALL component parts that are used to produce ANYTHING! That's why rising fuel costs affect food prices.

If you took away everything that at one point in it's process involved fuel or oil for movement or processing, you'd be sitting barea** naked on an unimproved vacant lot!

Think about that!


Randy

not so...
we had bakeries (local) wheat (local) and packaging(local) at one time...
but corp. america ,wanting more profit.. built big by huge factories.. and shipped everything from that one or two big factories..
now that fuel is killing this thinking..
you'll see alot of smaller local factories/farms/etc as they'll save more money doing it local than shipping it..

How do you know when you are getting it?

there was a notice that estimated when you would receive your Ck depending on the letter of your last name ......I forget where I found it :clonk:

not so...
we had bakeries (local) wheat (local) and packaging(local) at one time...
but corp. america ,wanting more profit.. built big by huge factories.. and shipped everything from that one or two big factories..
now that fuel is killing this thinking..
you'll see alot of smaller local factories/farms/etc as they'll save more money doing it local than shipping it..

Doesn't matter if it is local or not. Unless you are tilling and fertalizing the fields by hand, harvesting by hand, carrying the wheat to the factory in bushels on your back by foot, grinding the wheat into flour by hand, baking over a fire, packaging by hand, and delivering the product upon horseback, fuel is being used. Every aspect of making a product relies on fuel, every single aspect of it. It does not matter if it is local or trucked 1000 miles, it still relies on fuel unless you are willing to break your back to produce, deliever and sell that twinkie for 59 cents.

Jeff

I wonder how many of us are buying smaller more efficient cars?

I wonder how many of us are buying smaller more efficient cars?

Although I don't like the price of gas/diesel, it hasn't factored in to any vehicle purchase decisions for me -- yet. I just picked up a used Jeep Rubicon last month for my wife that I knew would not be the most efficient thing I could buy (~15 mpg city), but it's what we wanted. I drive an F250 (~13.5 mpg city). We think a little bit harder about our driving habits now (combine errands into one trip), but haven't considered different cars at this point.

Dave

I wonder how many of us are buying smaller more efficient cars?

My wife has always had a little eco box we got it 25 years ago ..... (honda) an its still getting 28+mpg !! pass's smog inspection every time & other then normal upkeep its cost to run are next to nothing !! an after all this time ;) I believe we've gotten our money's worth out of it :thumbsup:

Doesn't matter if it is local or not. Unless you are tilling and fertalizing the fields by hand, harvesting by hand, carrying the wheat to the factory in bushels on your back by foot, grinding the wheat into flour by hand, baking over a fire, packaging by hand, and delivering the product upon horseback, fuel is being used. Every aspect of making a product relies on fuel, every single aspect of it. It does not matter if it is local or trucked 1000 miles, it still relies on fuel unless you are willing to break your back to produce, deliever and sell that twinkie for 59 cents.

Jeff


not so,
a bakery around here, is all solar..
other than the farm equip.(they don't make electric yet)

It is plain and simple a supply versus demand position for the oil companies. We can all talk about it but how many of us actually do anything about it? Our society has proven that no matter what our own personal economic situation it, we will drive. It is a double edged sword. If our country actually put something into motion to regulate our oil consumption, then are we as americans ready to accept the terms needed to try and correct the problem? Heck no!! But then if it is long term the oil companies can actually regulate what we get and is that how it should work in our society if some of us have the ways and means to afford the cost of something? How many of you would just let the Chevelle set that you have worked so hard on just to change something that you realize in reality affects what you enjoy doing? Nobody will!! The only way something will change all of this with oil and overleveraged budgets is a full blown depression. If we are all made to burn firewood to heat and ride a bike instead of burning fuel to get from point A to point B then Corporate USA gets knocked off its high horse and they get their check of reality. But lets not forget our Government will bail them out so looking even further it all drives from the top. I think we all knew this was coming but opted for the "turn the other cheek" option. My Bass Boat sat all last year because of this and now my diesel truck is sitting. I can't afford it due to starting a business but I am ok with it. And things aren't looking good for the Chevelle this year either. I have no answer and certainly enjoy watching the post on a topic like this because people seem to want to change what is going on but our nature won't let us. And it sucks. Well, that about my .02 on it.

not so,
a bakery around here, is all solar..
other than the farm equip.(they don't make electric yet)

Let's look at what you say.

America has roughly 300,000,000 people. That's going to require a lot of Twinkies. And, A LOT of small, individual solar bakeries.

Since most people live in towns or cities, there's not enough timber available to them locally to cut down and process to build the bakeries that are necessary. So, the timber outside the local area must be cut (gasoline/diesel), transported to the mill (diesel), milled (electricity), transported to the lumber yard (diesel), transported to the jobsite (diesel).

Let's look at the solar panels for all those solar bakeries in each neighborhood. We'll either need A LOT of solar panel factories (lots of electricity), or we're going to have to transport the solar panels from the main factory (diesel).

The glass in the solar panel comes from silica sand. The sand is excavated (diesel), processed and trucked to the glass plant (diesel).

Once the glass is produced (electricity/natura gas), it must be transported to the solar panel factory (diesel).

After the panels are assembled from all their component parts that ALSO EACH required fuel somewhere in their production chain, they must be transported to the distributor (diesel) or directly to the jobsite (diesel).

See what I mean? You just can't get away from it UNLESS you are willing to accept a regression in your lifestyle to the way it was 150 years ago.

I, for one, don't want that.;)


Randy

Let's look at what you say.

America has roughly 300,000,000 people. That's going to require a lot of Twinkies. And, A LOT of small, individual solar bakeries.

Since most people live in towns or cities, there's not enough timber available to them locally to cut down and process to build the bakeries that are necessary. So, the timber outside the local area must be cut (gasoline/diesel), transported to the mill (diesel), milled (electricity), transported to the lumber yard (diesel), transported to the jobsite (diesel).

Let's look at the solar panels for all those solar bakeries in each neighborhood. We'll either need A LOT of solar panel factories (lots of electricity), or we're going to have to transport the solar panels from the main factory (diesel).

The glass in the solar panel comes from silica sand. The sand is excavated (diesel), processed and trucked to the glass plant (diesel).

Once the glass is produced (electricity/natura gas), it must be transported to the solar panel factory (diesel).

After the panels are assembled from all their component parts that ALSO EACH required fuel somewhere in their production chain, they must be transported to the distributor (diesel) or directly to the jobsite (diesel).

See what I mean? You just can't get away from it UNLESS you are willing to accept a regression in your lifestyle to the way it was 150 years ago.

I, for one, don't want that.;)


Randy

Exactly, this supposed solar powered bakery wasn't just put there natuarlly, it required loads of fuel to build it. There is no solar powered bakery in the world that could produce enough product to even feed one average sized village, let alone a nation.

Jeff

I'll say this again, "American's", on an individual basis use less fuel per person than they did 30 year's ago. This addicted to oil BS from the govt is just an excuse to allow the corporate world to stick it up your tailpipe. It is a LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the price of a barrel of oil is the reason for high gas prices then how do you explain $40 Billion in profit for a quarter for one lousy company.

I'll say this again, "American's", on an individual basis use less fuel per person than they did 30 year's ago.

Got some facts to back this up?

I'll say this again, "American's", on an individual basis use less fuel per person than they did 30 year's ago. This addicted to oil BS from the govt is just an excuse to allow the corporate world to stick it up your tailpipe. It is a LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the price of a barrel of oil is the reason for high gas prices then how do you explain $40 Billion in profit for a quarter for one lousy company.

This has been explained repeatedly already. The oil companies are not making record percentages of profits, just record profits. If you were to sell more of your product than anything else in the world, you would have record profits as well, without having high profit percentages. It is not greed by the oil companies, they are working on 10% profit, which is less than many, many companies do. It is purely because they sell so much more of their product at 10% than others do at 15%.

And it does not matter one little tiny bit if Americans on average use less fuel per person than they did 30 years ago. I havent verified this, but I would say it is a very safe bet that Americans use 100% more petroleum products than they did 30 years ago. Hell I would say we use 1000% more petroleum products than we did 30 years ago. How many plastic bottles of soda did you buy 30 years ago? How many plastic toys did you buy 30 years ago? How much plastic in general did you use as compared to today 30 years ago? All plastic, vinyl, asphalt and hundreds of other products use petroleum. That is where the record profits come from, considering this country and nearly every country around the world now, can't manufactor anything without the use of petroleum.

When the government says "addicted to oil" it goes way beyond the gasoline and diesel you get from the pumps. You need to not be narrowminded and look beyond the obvious. Oil, gasoline, diesel, all come from the same source, so does plastic and vinyl, and asphalt............

Jeff

Why is the price for Diesel $.68 more a gallon (Hess) when:
Ø You get more gallons of Diesel then gas out of a barrel of crude oil
Ø Diesel is cheaper to refine (including the filtration to produce Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel)
Ø Petroleum supplies are higher now in the US then they have been in a long time.
Ø Why has Diesel prices raise $.30 a gallon in the last two weeks
One off the biggest questions here is what this is going to do to inflation. As you know just about everything in the US is hauled by truck at some point. The snowball effect of these prices will make the current Economic Stimulus package a mute point.

Pictures taken at Herrema’s Marketplace 125 Pattenwood Road, Rochester, and Hess Dewy Ave, Rochester 11:30 AM 02/07/2008
Write your Congressmen and Senetors. This is part of the letter I have written.

Just thought I'd jump in since I work in a refinery. ULSD is not made using filtration, it is made by a process called hydrotreating after the diesel is separated from the other crude oil by a process called fractionation. We are required by the EPA to remove almost all of the sulfur from the diesel. The pre ULSD spec was 300 - 500 PPM sulfur. The ULSD spec is 8 - 10 PPM sulfur. The refinery I work in had to spend 70 million dollars to be able to remove the sulfur to the new spec. Making gasoline and diesel is not a cheap thing to do !!

This has been explained repeatedly already. The oil companies are not making record percentages of profits, just record profits. If you were to sell more of your product than anything else in the world, you would have record profits as well, without having high profit percentages. It is not greed by the oil companies, they are working on 10% profit, which is less than many, many companies do. It is purely because they sell so much more of their product at 10% than others do at 15%.

Jeff

It seems a common opinion is the $40 billion in profit is too much. It doesn't seem to matter what the percentage profit is or how much they sell. If they made 5% profit and that resulted in a huge profit because they sold so much stuff...the profit would still be too much. What is being asked for is a limit on the dollar amount of total profit, not the percentage.

It's always easier to blame someone or something else for whatever isn't going right. Collectively we are a big part of the problem and all the blame in the world isn't going to do anything to make gas prices like they used to be.

Got some facts to back this up?

My facts begin with myself. I intentionally drive less, alot less than I ever have. I don't go on vacation because the oil company's can kiss my SS. That means the other people don't get money spent at their places either. You know, motels, restaraunts, grocery store's, launch ramp's, state parks, boat retail store's and anything else related to gas use. Am I making a difference? Probably not but I feel better about it. Cars get three times the mileage they did in the eighties. That would mean that each person is using 1/3 of what they used to by that fact alone. As for you guy's that stand up for the oil company's I'm sure you have some vested reason for your stance. They havent built a new refinery in this country in over 30 years. Of course they have to spend money on maintenance. Show me a business that does'nt. As for removing sulfur from oil, that all depends on where the oil is from and it ain't all the same. The thing about high gas prices is that it is GREED. Gas has gone up and
so have the retirement packages to those execs. Nobody is saying that a company should'nt make a profit but when laws are passed and tax breaks are instituted which absolutely guarantee a large profit to a corporation
something stinks big time. I remember when going into business had risk's and for the average guy it still doe's but not for those fat cats at the oil company. As for your analogy abouyt the plastic product's I'll say it again, glass is cheap and plentiful and when given a choice I use it. They use plastic because it is cheaper to use a plastic bag than a paper bag. They use plastic because it is cheaper and easier to recycle and to transport than glass. I ain't buying your plastic theory. END RANT

My facts begin with myself. I intentionally drive less, alot less than I ever have. I don't go on vacation because the oil company's can kiss my SS. That means the other people don't get money spent at their places either. You know, motels, restaraunts, grocery store's, launch ramp's, state parks, boat retail store's and anything else related to gas use. Am I making a difference? Probably not but I feel better about it. Cars get three times the mileage they did in the eighties. That would mean that each person is using 1/3 of what they used to by that fact alone. As for you guy's that stand up for the oil company's I'm sure you have some vested reason for your stance. They havent built a new refinery in this country in over 30 years. Of course they have to spend money on maintenance. Show me a business that does'nt. As for removing sulfur from oil, that all depends on where the oil is from and it ain't all the same. The thing about high gas prices is that it is GREED. Gas has gone up and
so have the retirement packages to those execs. Nobody is saying that a company should'nt make a profit but when laws are passed and tax breaks are instituted which absolutely guarantee a large profit to a corporation
something stinks big time. I remember when going into business had risk's and for the average guy it still doe's but not for those fat cats at the oil company. As for your analogy abouyt the plastic product's I'll say it again, glass is cheap and plentiful and when given a choice I use it. They use plastic because it is cheaper to use a plastic bag than a paper bag. They use plastic because it is cheaper and easier to recycle and to transport than glass. I ain't buying your plastic theory. END RANT

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I'll say this again, "American's", on an individual basis use less fuel per person than they did 30 year's ago. This addicted to oil BS from the govt is just an excuse to allow the corporate world to stick it up your tailpipe. It is a LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the price of a barrel of oil is the reason for high gas prices then how do you explain $40 Billion in profit for a quarter for one lousy company.

Let me explain it...Huge company (40B), very efficient (10%), Scarce highly desirable resource:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/images/EC_3_lg.gif

Let me guess, you'd tax 'em more right? Read this please:

http://pages.prodigy.net/krtq73aa/oil.htm

Who cares about the caribou in Alaska.Start drilling and get that plentiful USA oil out of the ground.I hear Canada is sitting on a blockbuster amount of crude also.What are we waiting for?

How do you know when you are getting it?

On our local News website under the title "When will you get your gov't Rebate Check?" posted March 3, 2008 @ 01:18 PM PST.

Last month Congress passed an economic stimulus package that will put $600 in your pocket if you earn less than $75k a year. People with children get an additional $350 per child.

The last two digits of your social security number will decide when you receive your check by:

00-09 july 23
10-19 july 30
20-29 august 6
30-39 august 13
40-49 august 20
50-59 august 27
60-69 september 3
70-79 september 10
80-89 september 17
90-99 september 24

Beginging this week, the IRS will send out what they're calling an informational letter so that you do everything right to get your rebate.

Millions of retires, disabled veterans and low-wage earners who usually are exempt from filing a tax return must do so this year in order to receive a stimulus payment.

You know, borrow money from the chineeeeeeeze and give it to the oil producing countries.

You lost me with that one... I must have missed something:sad: I'm not borrowing and I'm not giving it to the oil countries.....:confused: But hey I did get a post out of it....

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either.

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either.

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either. And

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either. And sand/glass

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either. And sand/glass is still

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either. And sand/glass is

So what you are saying is you have no facts to back up anything you say and are basically just making things up? That explains a whole lot. :yes:

For starters todays cars don't get 3 times better mileage than cars of the 80's, not even close. My 89 camaro could get over 20mpg all day long, my 92 camaro averaged 28mpg on the way to chevellabration 2 years ago, my 88 chevy 4x4 I had was getting 16 mpg, so using your made up numbers, cars today are getting over 60 mpg and trucks should be getting almost 50 mpg. Please show me which ones get this, as I would love to go buy those vehicles.

As for your assumption I have a "vested interest" in oil, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't own a single stock, much less stock in oil companies. The only money I am involved with oil companies with is paying in to them.

I never gave you an analogy about plastic products, I gave you facts. Reading your above posts, I see you have some serious trouble with facts. Here's a fact for you, plastic is not produced without using oil. Look around you at all the plastic and vinyl and asphalt roads you see, those are all driving the cost of fuel up.

Jeff

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either. And sand/glass is still better.

If were willing to drive something like this, forget any safety features, work a few of the pollution bugs out of it. It might come down to take it or leave it, but the quicker we take it, the longer we might be able to drive.

http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/standard1.jpg

I guess you could look at who can afford to drive a car now, some people are to poor right now, but as the oil prices go up, and the supply goes down, who is going to be driving, the guys with the most cash.

It might be a hard pill to swallow, driving one of these, but the average middle class american probably should be pushing to get these going, or we'll be riding the buses, the rich will make sure we get a way to work.

You lost me with that one... I must have missed something:sad: I'm not borrowing and I'm not giving it to the oil countries.....:confused: But hey I did get a post out of it....

Where di you think all that stimulus money is coming from? China...... Where do you think it's going? Exxon

If were willing to drive something like this, forget any safety features, work a few of the pollution bugs out of it. It might come down to take it or leave it, but the quicker we take it, the longer we might be able to drive.

http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/standard1.jpg

I guess you could look at who can afford to drive a car now, some people are to poor right now, but as the oil prices go up, and the supply goes down, who is going to be driving, the guys with the most cash.

It might be a hard pill to swallow, driving one of these, but the average middle class american probably should be pushing to get these going, or we'll be riding the buses, the rich will make sure we get a way to work.

Those kinds of cars are fine inside a city where everyone else is driving one too. As soon as you get out onto an interstate where there are trucks, or out into the outer suburbs where soccer moms driving Escalades or minivans while talking on the phone are the norm, it just doesn't make sense. Heck, I'd love to have something like that to drive to work as long as everyone else on the road had something similar. There is too much intimidation and stupidity out there.

K

Those kinds of cars are fine inside a city where everyone else is driving one too. As soon as you get out onto an interstate where there are trucks, or out into the outer suburbs where soccer moms driving Escalades or minivans while talking on the phone are the norm, it just doesn't make sense. Heck, I'd love to have something like that to drive to work as long as everyone else on the road had something similar. There is too much intimidation and stupidity out there.

K

You bring up a good point, but we need to concentrate on how to solve the problem.

So, we can start with the soccer mom, set her down at the kitchen table across from you, and ask her how long she thinks the oil supply will last, and also ask her what she thinks the gas prices will be in two or three years down the road.

Keep it easy, just two questions, otherwise she might turn on you.

Wether you get an answer or not, she may ask one of her friends about it, now you have two of them at least thinking about it.

Women have a way of getting things done, so thats a start.

The middle class american setting in his living room is the start, then the next day that same conversation may be taken to work.

Then you get enough of us talking about it, then we can ask for predictions on supply and prices.

Rob

I remember all too well sitting in line at the gas station waiting to buy gas in the mid seventy's as there was a "gas shortage". Freighters were sitting outside the harbor's, loaded with oil but there was a gas shortage. Oil well's in the U.S. were being capped off left and right, but there was a shortage. People had to buy gas on "odd" or "even" days depending on their license plate number. It's funny how all these oil wells in california dried up all at the same time. When the oil company's found out how much power they had it was over. Funny how we have more drivers today, most of whom are not from this country and we have no gas shortage, just a money shortage and they havent built a refinery in decades. Shortage my SS. Now the middle east and other foreign countries, most of which don't like us are the only one's with oil. Convenient, isn't it?

This one here might not be to bad to ride in, it has nice big windows.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/1035/02/1035_02_2---Nottingham-City-Transport-Articulated-Bus_web.jpg?&k=Nottingham+City+Transport+Articulated+Bus

I remember all too well sitting in line at the gas station waiting to buy gas in the mid seventy's as there was a "gas shortage". Freighters were sitting outside the harbor's, loaded with oil but there was a gas shortage. Oil well's in the U.S. were being capped off left and right, but there was a shortage. People had to buy gas on "odd" or "even" days depending on their license plate number. It's funny how all these oil wells in california dried up all at the same time. When the oil company's found out how much power they had it was over. Funny how we have more drivers today, most of whom are not from this country and we have no gas shortage, just a money shortage and they havent built a refinery in decades. Shortage my SS. Now the middle east and other foreign countries, most of which don't like us are the only one's with oil. Convenient, isn't it?

OK, so what is your solution?

Just thought I'd jump in since I work in a refinery. ULSD is not made using filtration, it is made by a process called hydrotreating after the diesel is separated from the other crude oil by a process called fractionation. We are required by the EPA to remove almost all of the sulfur from the diesel. The pre ULSD spec was 300 - 500 PPM sulfur. The ULSD spec is 8 - 10 PPM sulfur. The refinery I work in had to spend 70 million dollars to be able to remove the sulfur to the new spec. Making gasoline and diesel is not a cheap thing to do !!
So, $70 million sounds like a lot, wait, how many gallons fo LSD do you refine in a day? I hauled gas for a living. I used to deliver to 8 stations in a day, the tanker I drove carried 12,200 gallons in a trip so I deliver 97,600 gallons in a day. We had 36 drivers in just my terminal so that means that 3.5 million gallons of fuel was delivered each day just out of my terminalby the company that I worked for. There were at lest seven other companies hauling out of that terminal. Refineries use pipe lines to supply terminals. They do not measure pipe lines by gallon but by barrels. there were seven termials here that got 100,000 barrels a day so.......$70 million does not really ad up to a lot when you consider how may gallons a refinery pumps out.

Oh,yes, one other thing, how much profit did the oil companies make last year (money in the pocket after expenses)?

Hey Glenn... I know the answer. It's real simple. Ya ready? The answer is.... because they can.

Cars get three times the mileage they did in the eighties.

I'll have to disagree with your blanket statement. My car was manufactured in the fall of 1980 and it gets near or above 50 mpg any day. This is with a 1.6L Diesel enging burning ULSD with a hint of cetane booster. Some say adding a bit of paraffin wax to the tank and some 'tuning' can increase that 50 to 70 with a bit a patience... I have yet to try that.

Collectively, we can achieve anything we want. I frequently telephone my local congressional representative. I also send e-mail's. I am not attempting to say anything here for any kind of credit and am very reluctant to say anything but it is worth making the point if it will help people become motivated. GWB and a few of those folks recently came up with a thing called a stimulus package. I noticed right up front that it did not include two particular groups of people. Likely the two most deserving groups of all. That would be disabled vets and people on soc sec. I called my representatives office and my call was returned by a staff manager the following day. I gave my thoughts on these two groups of people and he told me to send an email which at the time I did not do. Funny thing was that just a couple days later and I'm watching the news and see Harry Reed on there saying that they wanted disabled vets and people receiving soc sec to be included in this package. Coincidence???? maybe, but just the same they are now included. If that one call from one person did make a difference then it shows that it is possible for one to make a difference. Collective with enough calls and complaints they listen. Congress was about to give up amnesty to millions of illegal aliens but enough people made enough noise to put a stop to it. At least for now.

I wish my 78 olds got 16 mpg. Most old cars got about 10 mpg, like my olds until I put a 200 trans in it. I had an 85 Iroc 305 tpi that got about 16 with the o.d. trans. Even a 505 hp vette gets 28. Most folks are driving econo jap cars today and many are driving cars which get over 30 mpg, some way over that. As for plastic, it's just another by product like natural gas which used to be free but not today. As for the highway's, they haven't built a highway here in years so they must all be where you live. Al Gore posted some "facts" on global warming too but that don't make it so either. And sand/glass is still better.

HOLY CRAP batman, I don't know what your driving habits were/are, but damn geena, those are horrible MPG for those cars. My 74 camaro got 20+MPG with a 350 as long as I stayed out of the throttle. My Dad's 82 E250 van got over 15MPG. We have to compare apples to apples. You CANNOT compare an OLDS freightliner with a Honda. Pintos, Chevettes, Pacers, all got very good gas mileage, as well as the Corrollas, CVCC's, B-10s etc all got over 30MPG in the late 70's and early 80's. Heck even some of the smaller Cadillacs got high 20's. The only cars that are getting close to 60MPG are the hybrids.

With regards to building Highways to use asphalt... doesn't even come close to it. All those parkinglots, patches, housing developments, use Lots and Lots of asphalt. You are ONLY in the southern part of the state. Here in the central valley they are improving Highway 99, Highway 120, 205, I5, 101, etc, not to mention all the bridges in the Bay Area.

Yeah and you forgot mopeds and bicycles. My olds is an omega which is a nova which is well tuned and bone stock with all the oem smog stuff on it. I'm not making unrealistic claim's here. It is what it is and Atwater isn't exactly a booming metropolis, now is it. What are there, four stop signs up there? lol It does seem that the roads are better the closer you get to sacramento but down here to get away on a weekend you have to leave on thursday.

Hey Glenn... I know the answer. It's real simple. Ya ready? The answer is.... because they can.

Your right, they can, but I do not have to let them, at lest not with out a fight. That is why when I started this thread I stated write your Congressmen and Senators. I do not believe in price controls but I also do not believe in monopolies. There must be completion. I firmly believe the reason for the difference in gas and diesel prices is price fixing (by the way that was what this tread started out as, as a complaint about the difference in price between diesel and gas).

The cost of diesel is going to cause inflation because everything we buy is hauled by truck.

Capitalism only works when there is competition. That is why the government broke up Exxon many years ago.

My facts begin with myself. I intentionally drive less, alot less than I ever have. I don't go on vacation because the oil company's can kiss my SS. That means the other people don't get money spent at their places either. You know, motels, restaraunts, grocery store's, launch ramp's, state parks, boat retail store's and anything else related to gas use. Am I making a difference? Probably not but I feel better about it. Cars get three times the mileage they did in the eighties. That would mean that each person is using 1/3 of what they used to by that fact alone. As for you guy's that stand up for the oil company's I'm sure you have some vested reason for your stance. They havent built a new refinery in this country in over 30 years. Of course they have to spend money on maintenance. Show me a business that does'nt. As for removing sulfur from oil, that all depends on where the oil is from and it ain't all the same. The thing about high gas prices is that it is GREED. Gas has gone up and
so have the retirement packages to those execs. Nobody is saying that a company should'nt make a profit but when laws are passed and tax breaks are instituted which absolutely guarantee a large profit to a corporation
something stinks big time. I remember when going into business had risk's and for the average guy it still doe's but not for those fat cats at the oil company. As for your analogy abouyt the plastic product's I'll say it again, glass is cheap and plentiful and when given a choice I use it. They use plastic because it is cheaper to use a plastic bag than a paper bag. They use plastic because it is cheaper and easier to recycle and to transport than glass. I ain't buying your plastic theory. END RANT


So that would be a "no"

Where di you think all that stimulus money is coming from? China...... Where do you think it's going? Exxon

Maybe yours is - mines going into an IRA

Maybe yours is - mines going into an IRA

My tax preparer says she fully expects that the government to send out 1099's next tax time for the money they are giving you! A local lady that is in the State Legislature says they are talking about taxing it !:sad:

It does seem that the roads are better the closer you get to Sacramento

the Roads from the Capitol building in Sacramento to the Air Port are PERFECT !! as thats the only part of California that any of OUR Senators ever see !!!

I remember all too well sitting in line at the gas station waiting to buy gas in the mid seventy's as there was a "gas shortage". Freighters were sitting outside the harbor's, loaded with oil but there was a gas shortage. Oil well's in the U.S. were being capped off left and right, but there was a shortage. People had to buy gas on "odd" or "even" days depending on their license plate number. It's funny how all these oil wells in california dried up all at the same time. When the oil company's found out how much power they had it was over. Funny how we have more drivers today, most of whom are not from this country and we have no gas shortage, just a money shortage and they havent built a refinery in decades. Shortage my SS. Now the middle east and other foreign countries, most of which don't like us are the only one's with oil. Convenient, isn't it?

Yep that was in 1974. We were all going to freeze because of "Global cooling".

Maybe yours is - mines going into an IRA

Oh, I see, you must not go anywhere or buy food or anything.

Oh, I see, you must not go anywhere or buy food or anything.

Sure I do but this 'rebate' is extra $. I'm not going to spend more just because I have more. It's only going to "Exxon" as you claim if someone uses it to buy "Exxon" related products

Sure I do but this 'rebate' is extra $. I'm not going to spend more just because I have more. It's only going to "Exxon" as you claim if someone uses it to buy "Exxon" related products

I'm thinking about getting a new bicycle with mine...are there any made in the USA that aren't very expensive?:)

I'm thinking about getting a new bicycle with mine...are there any made in the USA that aren't very expensive?:)

I guess that depends on how you define 'expensive'. The cheapest US made frame that I know of is going to be about $500. Thats the frame alone. A set of wheels with mostly US parts will be around $500 likely. After that, it's all imported parts unless you have a lot of $ to burn

It is what it is and Atwater isn't exactly a booming metropolis, now is it. What are there, four stop signs up there? lol .

Hey we have 3 star bucks in as 3 mile radius.... But none the less I wasnt necessarily talking about Atwater, more so every where else but grid lock central. I know exactly what your talking about. My brother lives in Cypress, when I go to visit, I usually leave here around rush our time, which is pretty hecktic on 99, stupid 2 lane with one truck passing two others doing 56 and the slow ones are doing 55. But by the time we get to your area, its late and most everyone is either in the bars or at home. Even the I5, I205, SR 99 and sr 120 get stupidly insane everyday and every evening worse on weekends. But the amount of roadwork around is astronomical, and Im not talking CalTrans alone. There is plenty of hugemungus parkinglots going in up here we too have lots of people that shop for no reason. Heck in Fresno (45 min from my home) there are over 50,000+ patrons a day that visit one of the areas largest shoping malls.

I would have to say that is one of the few things that MAY drive me from California if the Libtards don't first. :yes:

I'm thinking about getting a new bicycle with mine...are there any made in the USA that aren't very expensive?:)

I have a Trek and it was made in the USA. great bike

Hey we have 3 star bucks in as 3 mile radius.... But none the less I wasnt necessarily talking about Atwater, more so every where else but grid lock central. I know exactly what your talking about. My brother lives in Cypress, when I go to visit, I usually leave here around rush our time, which is pretty hecktic on 99, stupid 2 lane with one truck passing two others doing 56 and the slow ones are doing 55. But by the time we get to your area, its late and most everyone is either in the bars or at home. Even the I5, I205, SR 99 and sr 120 get stupidly insane everyday and every evening worse on weekends. But the amount of roadwork around is astronomical, and Im not talking CalTrans alone. There is plenty of hugemungus parkinglots going in up here we too have lots of people that shop for no reason. Heck in Fresno (45 min from my home) there are over 50,000+ patrons a day that visit one of the areas largest shoping malls.

I would have to say that is one of the few things that MAY drive me from California if the Libtards don't first. :yes:

Well then you have room for one more satrbucks.lol Do you have cows?

I have a Trek and it was made in the USA. great bike

If it isn't an older Trek, it wasn't made in the USA. Trek is headquartered right out of Waterloo Wisconsin, and I own several of them, (like 6 now), and every one of them is made in china.

Their are very few, very, very few bicycles that are made in the USA anymore. Those that are, are typically really expensive custom made frames and forks fited with top end componentry. I believe a newer company called Seven bicycles is made in the USA. Their frame and fork combos run about $4500. Thats only the frame and fork, to get a complete Seven cycle you are looking in the $10,000 range for a good bike, and it will still be outfitted with imported gear.

Even if the frame and fork are USA made, nearly all the component group will be imported. The top 3 component makers are all imported, Campagnola, Shimano, and Sram are all imports, and those are the 3 you will find on nearly every bike now.

Personally, I wouldn't worry so much about purchasing a bicycle made in the USA. Like electronic items, their are just certain items that are typically built better by other countries. Bicycles are one of those in my opinion. Even though I own several Treks, and I prefer Trek, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up any of the European built cycles.

Jeff

Wow, over $350.00 is expensive to me......looks like I'll be adding to the trade deficit.:)

Wow, over $350.00 is expensive to me......looks like I'll be adding to the trade deficit.:)

Their are just some instances when you are better off doing that. Bikes is one of those times. You can get some very nice bikes in the $299 range if it is for more casual use. Trek, Giant and quite few others make quality bikes in that range. I would recommend going to a local bike shop to get one though. It doesn't matter how much or how little you spend on a bike, if it doesn't fit you right, you will hate it. A good bike shop will take the time to make certain whatever bike you pick fits you correctly before you take it home.

Plus most of them will give you a free 30 or 60 day check-up on the bike. As things break in adjustments will be needed, and getting that done for free will keep you enjoying that ride.

Jeff

I have a Cannondale, but would really like a Kestrel. Both made in USA

I have a Cannondale, but would really like a Kestrel. Both made in USA

According to 'bike retailer' only the carbon Cannondales are made here. Those 'made in the USA' stickers refer to assembly.

There's not bike thats entirely made in the US unelss you find someone who's doing full cutsom drivetrain stuff. About the best you can do is frames and wheels. There's a number of companies where you can get US made frames:

Trek Carbon
Cannondale Carbon
Waterford
Gunnar
Seven
Serotta
Vanillia
and I'm sure a slew of others but you're going to pay more for it than an imported frame.

OK so you spend 399 on a decent bike that is imported. Think of the money you WON'T spend on gas that WON'T get exported. Especially if you do like Jeff says and get the bike at a local shop so you get one that you will ride. Nice.

Of course, you will need a trailer to get the groceries home, and a change of clothes if you cycle to work. Maybe a rain suit if you plan on doing it in inclement weather.

I guess if you need lumber, you could have it delivered. Use someone else's diesel to get it. You would probably get better materials than from HD or Lowes too if you bought from a local lumber yard.

My carpool buddy and I looked into taking the train to work once. We figured it would take 2.5 hours to get there instead of 1 hour. We would actually have to get to work later since the transit doesn't run early enough to get us in on time. We would have to cut OT because the last bus near work is pretty early, around 5.30PM. THe zinger though was that it would cost $12 a day to get to work. 2 trains and three buses. Plus parking. Oh and the local police say to leave your car unlocked and no valuables in it at the train station. That way the thieves can get in without breaking the window.

This started as a "bicycles are cool" post Then it turned into a "Reality sucks" ramble. :(

K

OK so you spend 399 on a decent bike that is imported. Think of the money you WON'T spend on gas that WON'T get exported. Especially if you do like Jeff says and get the bike at a local shop so you get one that you will ride. Nice.

Of course, you will need a trailer to get the groceries home, and a change of clothes if you cycle to work. Maybe a rain suit if you plan on doing it in inclement weather.

I guess if you need lumber, you could have it delivered. Use someone else's diesel to get it. You would probably get better materials than from HD or Lowes too if you bought from a local lumber yard.



Why does it have to be all or nothing?

I'm thinking about getting a new bicycle with mine...are there any made in the USA that aren't very expensive?:)

Yep, my rebate is going to a "69 or '70 Schwinn Fastback five speed with the stik shift on the bar. $600 should get me a nice one; I have four currently but there is always room for more....:beers:

Well then you have room for one more satrbucks.lol Do you have cows?


I nor neither of my neighbors own any farm animals. However two houses down have horses. I have the smallest lot at 1 acre. Im surrounded by nuts, almost like if I lived in SF :D Seriously though, over 120 acres of almonds behind me, and blueberries across the street of about 40 acres, but mostly almont orchards, and sweet potatoe fields, more than likely any yams or sweet potatoes you eat are from here. Granted I live more than a mile out of the city limits. There are only a couple of Dairies near me, but in this county, and the county to the north of us house more dairy cows per capita (I think thats how it is measured) than any other county in the country.

With regards to a booming metropolis, the city Im in has close to 40,000 citizens in the city limits, the city just to our south is over 60,000 and then of course we have Fresno, Modesto, Ceres, and Turlock, Ceres being the smallest at over 45,000. All of the high schools around here have over 2000 kids in them too and a couple that had 4500+ for a few years (Madera High, and Turlock High)

This started as a "bicycles are cool" post Then it turned into a "Reality sucks" ramble. :(

K

My reality is I'm riding the bike for fun and fitness. My present Schwinn, (made in China unfortunately), has been great for the last 8 years, but I'm ready to step up to something a bit better.

Robert ...... I'm not sure what type Schwinn your riding ... but if its a cruiser with balloon tires you can change them to a high pressure style road tire their called Fat boys an inflate to 90-110 lbs :D which will change your cruiser into something that you can really cover ground on ....:thumbsup: just a thought ;)

Robert ...... I'm not sure what type Schwinn your riding ... but if its a cruiser with balloon tires you can change them to a high pressure style road tire their called Fat boys an inflate to 90-110 lbs :D which will change your cruiser into something that you can really cover ground on ....:thumbsup: just a thought ;)

Yep, it's a 7-speed cruiser with ballon tires......rides nice but the tires are starting to crack.....maybe I'll check into a few mods and keep it.

Keeps going up thats for sure last week it was $3.65 a gallon for diesel so I waited and now its $3.95 a gallon for diesel I guess I should have filled up last week:sad: within 5 days it went up .30 what a joke:sad:
Soon all the truckers and haulers are going to go on strike and shout down till the cost of fuel goes down. And if that happens everything is going to double in price at the grocery store along with everything else. Not going to be good for this country if that happens...

My reality is I'm riding the bike for fun and fitness. My present Schwinn, (made in China unfortunately), has been great for the last 8 years, but I'm ready to step up to something a bit better.
This actually this post started out as a complaint on the difference in between the price of Diesel fuel and gas, with a request for people to write their congressmen and senators to look into why there is shuck a big difference.

This actually this post started out as a complaint on the difference in between the price of Diesel fuel and gas, with a request for people to write their congressmen and senators to look into why there is shuck a big difference.

The cost of gasoline and diesel are not regulated by any member of our government nor should it be. I feel it is about as big a waste of our governments time and our tax money paying for it, for the government to be screwing around with petroleum products as it is congress dicking around with profesional athletes and steroids. It is a free market and demand drives the cost. WHen the price is too high, the market wqill respond with lower sales and the price will adjust accordingly. This is how free market works.

Jeff

I would'nt waste my time writing the Government. They realize the nations concerns about the high cost. Our pet projects like the War has to be funded somehow. It was stated that the war will cost every family in America $20,000 dollars over a 10 yr. period.
I have not written that check yet, nor will I. As long as I want to heat my home,drive my car to work, and use all the wonderfull products that are made with oil. Then WE ALL will continue to due or American duty. I don't like it but it's the facts of life. Kick the subject around as much as one would like. If demand drops the price will stay the same. Its all apart of a big plan. So get to writing and making the phone calls. Be sure to ask for the reach around treatment while your getting screwed. Your wasting your time. The Government is and are the oil companies. The old saying goes the only thing I have to do is "Die and pay taxes" Its "Die, pay taxes and High gas prices".

The cost of gasoline and diesel are not regulated by any member of our government nor should it be. I feel it is about as big a waste of our governments time and our tax money paying for it, for the government to be screwing around with petroleum products as it is congress dicking around with profesional athletes and steroids. It is a free market and demand drives the cost. WHen the price is too high, the market wqill respond with lower sales and the price will adjust accordingly. This is how free market works.

Jeff
I am not complaining about the high price. Actually I think it is a good thing. It will make alternatives economically possible. What I am complaining about is the difference in the cost of gas and diesel. Diesel should cost less then gas.

I would'nt waste my time writing the Government. They realize the nations concerns about the high cost. Our pet projects like the War has to be funded somehow. It was stated that the war will cost every family in America $20,000 dollars over a 10 yr. period.
I have not written that check yet, nor will I. As long as I want to heat my home,drive my car to work, and use all the wonderfull products that are made with oil. Then WE ALL will continue to due or American duty. I don't like it but it's the facts of life. Kick the subject around as much as one would like. If demand drops the price will stay the same. Its all apart of a big plan. So get to writing and making the phone calls. Be sure to ask for the reach around treatment while your getting screwed. Your wasting your time. The Government is and are the oil companies. The old saying goes the only thing I have to do is "Die and pay taxes" Its "Die, pay taxes and High gas prices".
Although I agree with what you have said, I refuse to roll over and be raped without putting up a fight. From this point on I will do everything in my power to make life for gas companies to survive.

This actually this post started out as a complaint on the difference in between the price of Diesel fuel and gas, with a request for people to write their congressmen and senators to look into why there is shuck a big difference.

OK, I'll complain.:) I've complained to my Senators and Congressmen hundreds of times is the last year or so, one more will be no problem.

While I'm at it maybe I can complain about the lack of bike trails.

With Americans up in arms about the high cost of fuel whats really being done. Nothing! Why are the individuals running for President not speaking more about a plan to lower the cost. The Answer, Because they cant. They're not going to take a chance on the backlash from the government and to ruin there chance to be Elected to the White House. Its a political brotherhood do's and don'ts. Being that we do live in a democracy you are provided the option to ride a bicycle, live in the dark, and not pay the gas prices.

With Americans up in arms about the high cost of fuel whats really being done. Nothing! Why are the individuals running for President not speaking more about a plan to lower the cost. The Answer, Because they cant. They're not going to take a chance on the backlash from the government and to ruin there chance to be Elected to the White House. Its a political brotherhood do's and don'ts. Being that we do live in a democracy you are provided the option to ride a bicycle, live in the dark, and not pay the gas prices.

Other than lowering the state and federal taxes on fuel, their is nothing they can do. It is not the governments responsibility to regulate the free market. This is not that hard to understand. Unless our government gets involved with regulating the free market, which we really DO NOT NEED, their is nothing they can do!!!!! Petroleum use is at a high nowadays, and unless we start using considerably less, the price is going to do nothing but increase. Cutting back by huge amounts of gasoline and diesel is a start, but we also need to considerably cut back on the use of plastic, vinyl and loads of other products. Until we do, get used to the prices.

Jeff

Cutting back by huge amounts of gasoline and diesel is a start, but we also need to considerably cut back on the use of plastic, vinyl and loads of other products. Until we do, get used to the prices.

Jeff

THATS EASY.. STOP WITH THE THROW IT AWAY EVERYTHINGCUPS/PLATES/ETC
COFFEE CAN COME IN A BAG
NO NEED FOR THE PLASTIC CAN
SAME WITH MOST HOUSEHOLD CLEANERS.. MAKE BIG BOTTLES ONLY
NONE OF THE SMALL ONES...

If it isn't an older Trek, it wasn't made in the USA. Trek is headquartered right out of Waterloo Wisconsin, and I own several of them, (like 6 now), and every one of them is made in china.

Their are very few, very, very few bicycles that are made in the USA anymore. Those that are, are typically really expensive custom made frames and forks fited with top end componentry. I believe a newer company called Seven bicycles is made in the USA. Their frame and fork combos run about $4500. Thats only the frame and fork, to get a complete Seven cycle you are looking in the $10,000 range for a good bike, and it will still be outfitted with imported gear.

Even if the frame and fork are USA made, nearly all the component group will be imported. The top 3 component makers are all imported, Campagnola, Shimano, and Sram are all imports, and those are the 3 you will find on nearly every bike now.

Personally, I wouldn't worry so much about purchasing a bicycle made in the USA. Like electronic items, their are just certain items that are typically built better by other countries. Bicycles are one of those in my opinion. Even though I own several Treks, and I prefer Trek, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up any of the European built cycles.

Jeff

It could be a lie but it says made in USA right on the frame. It's an Orange 6500

I nor neither of my neighbors own any farm animals. However two houses down have horses. I have the smallest lot at 1 acre. Im surrounded by nuts, almost like if I lived in SF :D Seriously though, over 120 acres of almonds behind me, and blueberries across the street of about 40 acres, but mostly almont orchards, and sweet potatoe fields, more than likely any yams or sweet potatoes you eat are from here. Granted I live more than a mile out of the city limits. There are only a couple of Dairies near me, but in this county, and the county to the north of us house more dairy cows per capita (I think thats how it is measured) than any other county in the country.

With regards to a booming metropolis, the city Im in has close to 40,000 citizens in the city limits, the city just to our south is over 60,000 and then of course we have Fresno, Modesto, Ceres, and Turlock, Ceres being the smallest at over 45,000. All of the high schools around here have over 2000 kids in them too and a couple that had 4500+ for a few years (Madera High, and Turlock High)

And I'm sure all their parents are american's. lol

I am not complaining about the high price. Actually I think it is a good thing. It will make alternatives economically possible. What I am complaining about is the difference in the cost of gas and diesel. Diesel should cost less then gas.
Not when the alternative fuels are controlled by the oil company's.

Other than lowering the state and federal taxes on fuel, their is nothing they can do. It is not the governments responsibility to regulate the free market. This is not that hard to understand. Unless our government gets involved with regulating the free market, which we really DO NOT NEED, their is nothing they can do!!!!! Petroleum use is at a high nowadays, and unless we start using considerably less, the price is going to do nothing but increase. Cutting back by huge amounts of gasoline and diesel is a start, but we also need to considerably cut back on the use of plastic, vinyl and loads of other products. Until we do, get used to the prices.

Jeff

It is the governments duty to regulate monopoly's and anti trust violations.