I have a 355
silvolite flat top ( 4 valve relief)
224-234 @ .050 112 LSA 107 ICL 495-510 with 1.6
750 VS
turbo 350
2500 stall
3.07 gear ( will be 3.42)
26' tall slick.
200 shot nitrous ( only at the track....5 times a year)
i hope that's all the data needed.

the pistons are .015 in the hole.

i have calculated this...please double check my math and give suggestions. I'm guessing a .040 quench is optimal ???
1-.025 gasket 64cc head=10.47-1
2.025 gasket 68cc head=10.00-1
3-.038 gasket 64cc head= 10.15 ( looks like .053 quench)
any suggestions on a diff set up is appreciated.

now for heads.
i have been recommended these
1- AFR 195
2- Dart pro-1 200cc

this must run on 93 octane pump gas.
thanks for helping, i really appreciate it.

mike

and

AFR's all the way. Their heads are unbeatable imo. check out their site www.airflowresearch.com (http://www.airflowresearch.com) and talk to them about it. I know on their big block heads the CNC chamber option unshrouds the valves and they flow better, not for sure on small block but would assume the same. Darts are good heads too , if I had the money AFR's on everything I build, Cept LS1, that's a diffrent story all together.

Later
Rassan

actually AFR makes a very very nice LS1 head

Yes AFR LS1 heads are awesome, but Patriot Performance makes a cnc'd ls1 head that flows +/- 3 cfm of AFR's and are priced about $700 cheaper. just under $1800 fully assembled!, springs rated to .650 lift. why buy AFR for $2500 when you get the same for $1800? Not dogging AFR heads by no means, like I said If I had the money they would go on everything I would build, cept a LS1. That's all

Rassan

P.S.
Cody your motor will put out more that 620HP AFR's 454ci with 305's and a hyd roller with 238@ .050 and around .600 lift made 605 ponies, with an 850cfm. your 620 is under estimating

Just a little FYI on the dart heads , i just installed my pro 1 230 cc heads this weekend & found out they had to have .150 offset rockers on the intakes . Not sure if the 200 will be the same ? Still have found no information on the heads stating i needed these rockers , not even dart web site says anything .

Are you sure the pistons are down .015"? Did you measure them? Silvolite pistons are .020" short on pin height. Which usually sets the deck at .045". For them to be down .015", the deck would need to be cut .030" or there abouts. I hope they hold up to a 200 shot.

We need the advertised duration to calculate the DCR.

Canfield's are another choice. I've never used them have heard good about them. Don't go over 200cc on the port size.

Pat.

yes we measured them and their .015 in the hole. The block has been decked before.

i will get the advertised dur tomorrow and post it here.

According to chp the Canfields intake flow equall to the AFR(+/- 3 cfm) but the ex. are down by as much as 23 cfm. I do have 1.75 headers with dual 2.5".

Does anybody have personal experience with the canfields ( 195) ?

thanks
Mike

I think the headers are too big for your cam. 1-5/8" would work better. I'm using 1-5/8" headers with a 246/253 @ .050" cam and they work fine. A buddy with the same cam went to 1-3/4" and got no change in ET or MPH. We both shift at 7000 rpm.

I'm still concerned about using cast pistons with a 200 shot. I wouldn't go over 125.

What Pat said. I really don't think it would be a Good Thing to be hitting a Silvolite cast piston with a 200 shot. I'd go for the biggest chamber head you can get to hold the CR down. What size fuel line does the car have on it? If you lean that thing out due to low fuel pressure while hammering it with a 125 or 200 shot the rest of the story is going to be real short and you won't like the way it ends. smile.gif

Tom

=
Mike,
My choice would also be the AFR. Quality head & people.
I would consider the 180cc port for a milder combo.
You might also want to look at the new Brodix Race Rite with the CNC chamber option
The 200cc one will outflow even the 210 AFR to about .400 lift which are the numbers you need to worry about with most street type cams.
The AFR small block heads do not respond to a CNC chamber option like the Rats, they are good to go out of the box.

I would also consider what both Pat & Tom are telling you,, I agree completly.

If you are interested in either the AFR or Brodix email me & I can probably save you a few dollars on them ;)

The silvolites are hyperutectic's. i thought they could take a 200 shot ? I can and will back that down if you recommend. I think the headers are a little too big, but i got them for $100 super comps coated, so i'm stuck with them.
i haven't seen any flow #'s from the brodix race rite's.

chp must have flowed the AFR competition ported series.
here's what i got right from their sit as a comparison to the canfields .

AFR 195 street head Canfield 200cc ( the AFR site starts at 200 lift)
AFR CAN AFR CAN
lift int. int. ex. ex.
200 132 141 108 107
300 198 201 156 143
400 240 247 178 175
500 260 258 190 190

Does anybody have flow #'s for the Dart pro-1 200cc ?

I'll look for the #'s on the race rites.

thanks for all the input
Mike

TOM,

the car has a holley blue pump for the motor and a seperate 1 gal fuel cell with an elec carter pump just for the nitrous , with a guage.

wolf place

i just looked at the flow #'s for the race rite's, their not even close to the Canfields or AFR's.

Mike,
The advertised numbers are low because they are an honest representation of the head before the CNC chamber option. Brodix does not inflate their numbers.

Here is an apples to apples comparison from my bench not advertised on both sets of heads.
The last set is a set of ProActions 200 (now Pro Topline)which actually measured 207cc's
Check out the numbers of the Brodix after the CNC Chamber option & also the "advertised Pro head numbers compared to as measured.

AFR 210------Brodix200RR ----- 200Pro-
.050-30/25 ------- 32/27 ------- 28/23
.100-61/54 ------- 64/52 ------- 60/52
.200-126/106 ----- 113/91 ------ 114/100
.300-180/150 ----- 168/135 ----- 165/137
.400-235/191 ----- 220/165 ----- 212/160
.500-273/213 ----- 249/181 ----- 244/176
.600-278/226 ----- 268/191 ----- 268/184
.700-287/232 ----- 279/196 ----- Not tested
--
New Brodix RR numbers after just the CNC chamber option, no other changes!!
.050 - 34/26
.100 - 67/63
.200 - 134/114
.300 - 194/164
.400 - 243/181
.500 - 266/189
.600 - 270/193
.700 - 279/195
All tests at 28", radius inlet, 4.155 bore, no pipe

The Pro 200 advertised numbers are:
.100 - 71/57
.200 - 146/101
.300 - 204/157
.400 - 250/177
.500 - 261/186
.600 - 268/190
.700 - 276/195

Silv-o-Lite hypers. If you check their web catalog, you will find they say their hypers are not for racing. You might get by. Start with the minimum nitrous shot and move up slowly. Keep a sharp eye on the plugs for signs of detonation. Hypers tend to disintegrate and you may not get any warning. A tight quench will help. I suggest setting it as close as you can to .035".

pat the advertised duration on that cam is 290-300

the pistons are -7cc

thanks mike

With a .035" quench, SCR is 10.27, DCR is 7.72.

Out of curiosity .. why is it that people keep buying POS cast pistons for performance applications ?????? spend the $$ up front and be happy.
From what I've seen cast and/or hyper pistons not only dont get along well with a decent shot of N2O .. they dont like RPM either.

thanks pat , that seems low. I'm not sure what's ideal, but i thought it could be higher ?

was that calculated with a 64 cc head ?

Well i was told they would be ok, and my funds are not unlimited and i only will spray this car maybe 5 times a year, that's why i bought them pistons. Also i talked to 2 engine builders that said a 200 shot would be ok. However i will back down to 150 max and even start with 100.

In retrospect if i had to do it again i would go with forged.

thanks

wolfplace.
Brodix web site says the rr 200 are for high RPM app, intended to be left there. 4500-7000 I shift at 6000 on motor 5500 on spray.


what's your price on the L-98 angle street 195 with dual springs / And do you have them in stock ?

Mike

Originally posted by mike1985:
wolfplace.
Brodix web site says the rr 200 are for high RPM app, intended to be left there. 4500-7000 I shift at 6000 on motor 5500 on spray.


what's your price on the L-98 angle street 195 with dual springs / And do you have them in stock ?

Mike =
Mike
You are correct, the 200cc head is not a good match for a mild 350.

You don't suppose that is why I said you might want to look at the 180's do you??
They are a much better match for your combination.
I only bothered to put the 200cc flow numbers up so you could get an honest comparison as it appears you are comparing flow numbers between heads & doing it from different sources which is not the best plan.
The same head on 10 different benches will probably give you 10 different numbers.

The numbers in themselves while a pretty good indicator of the capability of the head is not all you want to look at.
Putting on too much head just like too much cam will make a slug out of your ride.

I can tell you that both AFR & Brodix are very honest in there advertised numbers
I can also tell you that the CNC chamber option on the Race Rite series is a huge improvement as I have both flowed & dynoed the exact same head before & after.

I do not quote prices on these forums as it is frowned upon & I know of no one that keeps AFR in stock including AFR.
The lead time on AFR heads is about 6-8 weeks.

If you would like a price on either, just email me ;)

Also on the pistons, I know people do use them with nitrous but what you are getting from the good people on this forum is feedback from the real world & in the real world if you are going to spray 200HP of nitrous you really should have forged pistons.
The KB's will take a lot of abuse but if you get it lean or detonate it for whatever reason they are much less forgiving & as Tom so aptly put it,if something isn't right,, "you won't like the way it ends" :D

Back in the day, ( we didnt have hypers), forged slugs were de rigeur for any performance application. Any. I'd be conservative and listen to the voice of experience from Pat.

my fault wolfplace i missed the correlation.

I agree with getting flow #'s from many different places and benches. I need to just stick to the CHP #'s , as their all from the same bench, same person doing the set up and flowing. I like AFR's but i'm not going to wait 6-8 weeks for a head. I'm really leaning toward the Canfield. Do you have those ?

Can't help you on Canfields but I believe it's Competition Products that has them for a pretty good price.

I would suggest getting them bare & having the work done locally as some of the mail order stuff I have seen leaves something to be desired when it comes to parts supplied & assembly work.

Not knocking CP in particular just a "general statement" from some of the slam together things I have seen :D
You can only spend so much time putting things together for a certain price & still make a buck or two which even in my case is sorta the plan,, although my wife would probably disagree with that sometimes :D :D

Originally posted by mike1985:
thanks pat , that seems low. I'm not sure what's ideal, but i thought it could be higher ?

was that calculated with a 64 cc head ?thanks Yes, 64cc. 8.0-8.3 is desirable and with aluminum a bit higher is good.

Pat, if i could ask one more favor ?

what cc head ( with 38 quench) will put me in the 8.0-8.3 range.

thank you
Mike

You also said good things about Canfield,do you know anyone personally running them ? Afr's are 6-8 weeks out.

Mike

Originally posted by mike1985:
I need to just stick to the CHP #'s , as their all from the same bench, same person doing the set up and flowing. I hate to throw another monkey wrench in here, but that isnt totally accurate either. The same person did not assemble all the heads for the CHP tests.

I personally spoke to someone that set up the Canfield heads for the CHP flow tests. He said hands down the Canfields out-flowed the AFR 195s on his bench. For some strange reason, the AFRs came out on top in the test.

This person is the same one that helped design the Holley Systemax II kit when he was employed by Holley.

I try not to get too wrapped up in the whole flow test things, way more factors to consider than just that when buying heads. Other than real tests like Wolfplace does, they all seem so cut-throat. graemlins/clonk.gif

thanks.

I'm not going to wait the 6-8 weeks for the AFR's, so i have to decide between Canfields or Dart pro-1 200cc.

I have recieved alot of stories about people who know someone with Canfields, but i can't seem to find someone that's actually run them.

Mike

I just ordered Canfields from Competition Products, out of Oshkosh, Wi.
Will be here in 1 week- 10 days.

2 heads and intake gaskets to my door for $1077.72

I'll let you know what they look like when i get them

Mike

Originally posted by mike1985:
I just ordered Canfields from Competition Products, out of Oshkosh, Wi.
Will be here in 1 week- 10 days.

2 heads and intake gaskets to my door for $1077.72

I'll let you know what they look like when i get them

Mike Good luck, and Oshkosh is about 30 minutes from me! graemlins/hurray.gif

Originally posted by mike1985:
Pat, if i could ask one more favor ?

what cc head ( with 38 quench) will put me in the 8.0-8.3 range.

thank you
Mike

You also said good things about Canfield,do you know anyone personally running them ? Afr's are 6-8 weeks out.

Mike Looks like about 58cc to get 8.2 DCR with 10.9 SCR.

What about Gm heads? Are the phase 2 or 3 that far behind the aftermarket?

thanks everybody.

Pat i appreciate all the calculations you have done for me.

I have to use a .026 gasket, netting me a quench of.041, and the heads are 65cc. The DCR will be low.

So why does my ELGIN cam have 290-300 adv. and 224-234 @.050 and other cams ( comps) have 268 adv. with the same 224 @.050.

Pat i guess i'm asking if i switch cams to something with less adv duration and the same .050 duration will the DCR go up ?

thanks Mike

I was looking at this cam
comp nitrous fp
nx 268 h
adv. 268-286
224-236 @.050
477-490
113 LSA.

would this cam raise the DCR with lower advertised duration.

This is my last question/calculation Pat.

thanks
Mike

Correct, less advertised duration with the same .050" will raise the DCR. A 268-270 advertised cam yields about 8.22 (270 cam), 8.28 (268 cam). I figured both these using 110 LSA installed with 4º advance.

8.10 for the NX cam. Is there any particular reason for wanting a wide LSA. I think a 110 would be better.

Pat i was choosing the wide lobe sep for a bigger gain on nitrous. 150 shot max. (now)

Which cam would you suggest for this new combo ?
thanks

Nitrous, awe. The NX cam seems pretty good. 8.10 DCR would work well. Did you call Comp? I know it can be a waste of time sometimes, but some there are pretty sharp.

Pat i have called them before and they have recommended this cam. I prefer your way of calculating the cam though ( DCR) they just threw it out there as it matched the RPM range and the nitrous.

thanks for calculating that for me.
I'll order the cam and have a whole new top end when the Canfields arrive next week.

Mike

Pat,

With the current combo
.043 quench, 65cc head
290-300 ADV
224-234 @.050
112 LSA, 107 ICL
you calculated 7.7 DCR.

with the comp cam
268-286 ADV.
224-236 @.050
113 LSA, 108 LSA ( straight up)
you calculated 8.10

I have 2 questions.
1- is this enough differenct to warrant a cam change ?

I read on your site advancing the cam raises the DCR ? What would the comp cam be if installed 4 deg adv.

The motor is on the stand, and nows the time to change cam if needed ?

Thank you

Mike

I know what you mean when you start talking to each comp individually they ALL have the BEST head. I started getting more and more confused the more manf. i talked to. Also i learned it's hard to judge a cyl. head just because a local guy runs a dart pro-1 in a STREET sbc and runs good. I finally plugged that guy long enough to find out it was a 7K motor with the lighest weight parts, 680 roller cam ( not my idea of a street motor) jesel valve train...etc.

So i decided to go back to the only independent testing i had and choose from there. That was the CHP flow 3's. By all rights CHP would not gain anything , no matter which head came out on top. So in the 195 cc port ( as 99% of the time this thing will be on motor) there were 2 substantial heads, AFR and Canfield. I would have bought AFR's, but no way was i going to wait 8-10 weeks for a cyl. head, I feel i came out good with the canfield. They will be here in 7-10 days and i saved $300.