My intake is leaking oil, so I decided its time to pull it. I have been toying with the idea of changing the cam to something more reasonable for my combo and figured nows the time...

I realize my combo is far from ideal, but IF I am changing only the cam, what would be a good cam to get??? I am planning a new motor in the next few years and just want to have some fun with this until then...

The current combo:
396, 0.030 over 4.124 bore
Edelbrock Performer Aluminum heads (110cc chambers, according to Edelbrock)
TRW L2240NF30 Forged pistons, these are older (early 1990s), but newer specs indicate a 21cc dome volume; 8.89:1 SCR with 109.4C+cc chambers)
Standard FelPro head gasket (Permatorque Blue?) Compressed thickness???
Not sure how much the piston/deck clearance is (decked at least twice).
Comp magnum roller tipped rockers, stock 1.7 ratio.
Manual trans (Richmond 5-speed, 8.30 overall 1st gear ratio)
Headers, Flowmaster pipes, etc

Cam:
Edelbrock RPM #7162;
Duration @0.050, I=240, E=246
Adv Duration, I=300, E=306
Lift @ 0.050, I=0.560, E=0.573
Lobe Separation 112
Intake CL 110 degrees

I originally chose the cam because I wanted a real lumpy idle (years ago, before I knew much)

I would really like to improve the idle of the car, and definitely keep using pump gas (91 octane is the highest I'd like to use for normal use). The car now idles about 1100 rpm.

I was also told the cam was too big for the relatively low compression (reducing my DCR?). I have NO problems with the engine running ONLY 87 octane fuel right now, no audible detonation, no visual clues/spekles on the plugs, usually runs cool, mild diesaling when really hot (so I shut off in gear)... I don't mind having to step up to 91 octane...

The car "feels" powerful, but at the track, times were dismal (poor traction) with MPH in the mid 90's ( where'd I put those timeslips???)... On the street (and track) the BFG tires (295/50/15 with Positraction) spin easily, and the car goes sideways shifting into 2nd, etc... Not the best tires, but still takes decent power to spin them...


So, most importantly, I'd like a cam that has a little smoother/lower idle (but still sounds good). But I'd also like to ensure that I will increase the power (I guess lower-speed torque is what I want), otherwise, not worth the swap at this time...

As mentioned before, I know much of the combo is definitely NOT optimized, but I ONLY want to change cam/lifters at this time...

Any suggestions???

Thanks,

Tony

A 268 cam is about as big as you'd want to go without increasing the compression. On a 110 LSA installed at 104 (6º adv), the DCR is 7.46. This is miles better than what you had (6.22 DCR). 7.46 will work pretty well but really should be higher for the most power. You might want to go smaller, however with the low CR you have the cam would need to be quite small to match up well with it. To get to ~8.2 DCR, you need a 228 adv dur cam. I doubt you'd be happy with that. It would pull very strong on the bottom but give out real quick. A 262 adv/110 LSA/106 ICL would make more torque and would be a good choice (7.52 DCR).

Thanks Pat...

When you say 268, thats advertize duration, correct? As opposed to my 300/306 :eek: ???

So really between 228 and 268 duration... The less duration, the less compression bled off by the cam, right (I know there's alot more to this)???

So something with about 110-degrees Lobe separation and 104-106 ICL...

I really don't rev this motor very high anymore, maybe 5500 when shifting (its balanced, but as I get older, I actually worry about the cost/downtime of breaking parts...).

So maybe I'll look for something from 248-260 duration...

Any suggestions???

Thanks again...

Yes, advertised.
Take a look at the Dual Energy cams from Comp. I know there is a 255/261 cam for the SB that looks like a good match for you. I don't have a BB catalog so I can't look it up for you. I think our own UDHarold may have designed it some years ago. The High Energy line has even smaller cams.

A small solid like the Comp 270S or Lunati A1 wouldn't be a bad fit either. And they come smaller in the new XS line, the XS262 likely giving you some nice DCR numbers and hopefully power.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/CurrentCatalog/HTML/172-195.asp

I'd use the 221/231 .515/.515 Lunati/UD cam
the LSA is 112
Advertised is 276/284 I think

Oops

I'll tell you where, looking for a nice supercharger...

If you check www.flatlanderracing.com (http://www.flatlanderracing.com) , you see two different 2240s listed, one with dome removed and one with dome. I think your 8.89 is correct ASSUMING those slugs have domes.

You're only a cam swap away from some good improvement! Get some cylinder pressure and make that rat work!

Gene,

These are un-adulterated pistons (no domes removed)...

The shortblock was actually intended to be used with some oval port closed chamber heads (~96CC stock) and dropped into a 1966 2-door-post TO SELL. I did buy good pistons, new bolts (rod and main cap) and had the assembly balanced (all machining and assembly work was free, just took 3+ months)...

I ended up using it as a "temporary" engine in my convertible (and I gave away the 2-door post- doh!), bolting on my 858 Rect Ports (~109CC?) and a semi-wild hydraulic cam (similar duration/lift to the stock LS6/L78 grind, but a hydraulic cam)... I also had an M20 with 4.10 gears... Wicked fun on the street!!! :D


Ran great for several years in college (switched to 3.42s), then blew something AT my wedding (ended up I'd cracked a cylinder, water in oil)... I sleeved that cylinder, and checked the rod/piston for any damage (thought it hydro-locked)... Everything was fine... rehoned, new rings and bearings, etc...

Decided to spare the rare 858 heads and went with the Edelbrock aluminums, the Dual Quad and decided to go with the Edelbrock RPM cam... Not even thinking about lowering the CR even further (the Edels @110 cc are almost the same as the 858s @109.4cc or so...).

Had NO idea about anything like dynamic CR, although it makes sense.

This was well before I ever found the value of this site...


recently, I picked up a 454 (0.030 over)core, and am debating building a 427+ (have a "std/std" steel crank just sitting), a 454+ or a stroker 496. But with the two babies and other family stuff, I can't justify the expense right now, as the engine "runs" fine (plus I've been dreaming of wheels and tires for 2+ years)...

With my 2.73s and the 3.04 Richmond, I'd like to gain a little more bottom end anyway... I just don't want the car to sound wimpy with too mild of a cam... I figure right now, I never really race it anyway, so people probably "think" its really fast...

I am thinking about that High Energy 268H grind or the 265/272 Dual Energy, both on 110-degree lobe separation...

Whats more important for boosting the DCR, lowering the duration or changing the Lobe separation??? Pat mentioned using a 110-degree separation... It just limits the choices...

I'll tell you where, looking for a nice supercharger...I had thought of this, especially with the dual quads... Would look good with a centrifugal supercharger (all under the hood)...

But alas, that alot of extra money, and its still a compromised setup...

The 110 LSA makes for a bit smoother idle than a 108. You could go with a wider LSA and the engine will idle better and make more vacuum. It will have a wider power band but less of the "kick in the pants" feel.

If the ICL is held in the same place, changing the LSA has no effect on DCR. If the advance is held the same, then changng the LSA will change the DCR.

For example:

Given a cam of 272º adv int dur on a 110º LSA. If this cam is installed at 4º advance (106º ICL), the intake closes at 62º ABDC. If the same duration cam is on a 108 LSA and installed at 4º advance (104 ICL) the DCR changes since the intake now closes at 60º ABDC.

If we take the 108º LSA cam and install it at 106º, where the 110 cam was installed, this make the cam 2º advanced. The intake closes at 62º the same as the 110 cam.

Notice that in the first example we kept the amount of advance (4º) the same and let the ICL change. The intake closed 2º sooner with the 108 cam. If we keep the ICL (106) the same, as in the second example, and let the advance change, the intake closes the same with either LSA.

Duration almost always has an effect on DCR. You'd have to manipulate the ICL to keep the DCR the same.

I bet the good old CC 268HE as mentioned by Pat will do you nicely, imho.

As will the XS262 solid that Gene mentioned!! In fact it fits better, imho.....

pdq67

I wouldn't go too small with the cam...8.9 ain't the best compression,but far from the worst.And you have decent heads too.
At least 225 duration (even up to 235),110 or 112 LSA up to .550
Even a small solid would be great.

Exactly Chris, running too small a cam is like teats on a bull hog here. Small enough to boost cylinder pressure, not too small to not allow the motor to see good power at, say 5800 rpms where the heads will really shine.

Even the old Comp 270S installed +5-6 would be great.

Tony, would you consider a solid cam? My thinking is that it will give you better rev capability with no decrease in cylinder pressure over an analogous hydraulic.

Clearly in this range of lobe profile, I should think the lash maintenance is akin's to Al's ( 69LS1) once every decade deal on his daily driver.

smile.gif

I'd step up a notch from the 262 to the XS268 or thereabouts to let it rev to 6000 and use some of the head's capability.

Also another reason, IMHO, you don't want to get too tight in lsa. Mid range peak, yes better with 106-108. Upper rpm, better with 110+.

Doesn't anyone make a solid sporting 228/234 @.050, around 268/272 on the seats, .550+ lift, set out on a 110 lsa?
Hmmm?


# 01350 on this list is darn close, albeit a might big on the .050s and CHEAP!

http://www.crower.com/sp/gs_cams.shtml

For $60, you can ask them to EDM out your lifters and still be in for less than $130 for the cam. I'd personally prefer something smaller BUT, if you run DCR's on this cam it will show well and give you GOBS of upper rpm.

Just an FYI,I have Big Block Dave's old 396,best run with motor was 12.45/105 MPH,averaged 12.50-12.60 (12.60 being the worst) and that was 9.5 to 1 396 with small valves and .180 domes/101 cc's
Cam was a small Crower solid 240/246 @ .050 .517/.530 on a 114 LSA
I'm not saying to use that cam-it just gives you an indicator on what a low compression 396 can do with a big cam,4.10 gears,good convertor,and a nice 60 ft. (1.72)
The whole combo had a great seat of the pants feel too.
Same motor would probably run low 13's in my car with 3.31's and my convertor

The $60 Crower ought do a bit better than that one, being smaller, intense with nice lifts. If it did the same it would be fine!

Com'on dude, we find you a $60 cam that will work! And be good with the 91 octane stuff you have available.

smile.gif


...next..... ;)

$60 cam :eek:

Is this one of those that the metalurgy on the blank is bad and its gonna go flat right away???

I'll definitely look into that... $60 can't be beat...

0.563/0.575 lift! 110 LSA, 268/274 [/b]duration. Honestly, with that lift and duration, isn't there a higher likelyhood of wiping a lobe???


I did have a emailed offer for a new 262 XS solid...

Tony, would you consider a solid cam? My thinking is that it will give you better rev capability with no decrease in cylinder pressure over an analogous hydraulic. No problems running a solid. I have no A/C to get in the way, and I imagine I'll only set the lash once or so (I doubt I'll get more than 2000-3000 miles before I build another motor)... I used to have a solid in my El Camino.

For $60, you can ask them to EDM out your lifters and still be in for less than $130 for the cam. Whats EDM the lifters???

Okay, here's what I have gathered:

choices: ALL Solids, ALL 110-degree LSA...

1) Comp Cams, XS262S; 262/268 duration (224/230 @0.050), 0.532/0.532 lift, 110 LSA, "noticable idle", 1300-5800 powerband. Someone (Johnny)offered to make me a deal (no price yet) on a new one he has, but places like Summit have cheap shipping), $120 from Summit ("should" ship 11/10). This would have a slightly better DCR (based on what Pat mentioned earlier).

2) Comp Cams, XS268S; 268/274 duration (230/236 @ 0.050), 0.553/0.568 lift, 110 LSA, 1600-6000 powerband, $120 from Summit (in stock).

3) Crower "discontinued" that Gene mentioned, #01350; 268/274 duration (but different lash? )(230/236 @ 0.050), 0.563/0.575 lift, 110 LSA, No Other Specs. I assume this will be very close to the XS268S listed above, with a little more lift. $60 plus shipping, direct from Crower.

So the Crower saves $60... Sounds pretty good...

But the XS262 will probably be a little better low end (I only have a 8.30 overall first gear, unlike Gene's 10.1) with my 2.73 gears... and it might be less than a $60 difference...


Any more thoughts?


Oh yeah, I would like to try degreeing this when installed (never done that). Can I do that with the heads installed?

Will it be a problem IF I just reuse my current chain (about 1500 miles on it). I had thought of gear drive (just for the sound), but I think it would drive me nuts quickly).

Will it be a problem to only use the available keyways on the crank gear to set up the cam +4, 0, -4 (I really don't want to get into offset dowels in the cam gear)...


Its been a while since I have swapped cams (about 4 years). How do I set initial lash, yet still have lube on the cam (as its rotated, it will wipe the lube off). Just lube it, then set lash, then pour EOS on it before putting the manifold back on? Is EOS still available or is there anything else to use? What do I set the initial lash (when cold, for start up)?

Thanks everybody...

The bugger is going to be whether or not you ahve to drop the bumper. I know in a sbc 66 you can swap a cam by removing the hood latch tower thingy.

The Crower looks like a thumper dude, with short seats and decent .050s, likely good .200 numbers as well. A small short track cam likely.

I do think the small 262 is a better fit. Question, didn;t Mike Newby swap in the XS for the XE hyd he had and gained NOTHING!?

So while I'm usually a solid advocate, nothing is still nothing.

I think I'd ask Mike if HE feels the solid version of that grind is worth it. Those XE grinds don;t open as fast as the UD I'm more familair with. Maybe there is then less advantage in lifting the valves mechanically in that case, or the cam's so small the differences are too marginal?? all I know is Mike gained nada on the swap I do believe.

Hey Mike....

Tony, I had Crower 'burn' small oiling holes in a brand new set of Crane lifters. Again, the cam looked somewhat intense to me and felt it was cheap insurance for a bonafide 500+ mile trip street car. The small holes in the bottom of the lifters allows a bit of oil to bleed onto the cam lobes. ( we also did radical surgery on the rod side clearances, so I wanted an additional oiling source).

Hey, maybe keep it simple. Crane Energizer 272H10 kit( w/lifters). Usually $100.

The bugger is going to be whether or not you ahve to drop the bumper. I know in a sbc 66 you can swap a cam by removing the hood latch tower thingy. On my old 66 SBC (way back in 1983), we still had to drop the bumper... The cam hit the grill/valence and the distributor gear was all the way out... Just needed another inch...

I planned on dropping the front...

So the EDM was for extra oiling (for a solid)...


Crane Energizer, ~$100 for cam and lifters???... Man, just when I thought I had a choice made...

So you really think the smaller cam is the way to go (of those choices)... XS 262???

Honestly though, what is the best lifter brand to use (with all the talk of cheap foreign made junk on the market)... solids and hydraulics...

I use Crane's. Always been impressed by their quality.

Yupper, pg 48 of this catalog.......$99!!!!

http://www.competitionproducts.com/2004CompProducts.pdf

Well Gene,

I am leaning toward the Crower solid you mentioned:

Solid, 268/274 adv dur, 563/575 lift, 110 LSA, $60 + $55+ for lifters ($90 for the EDM'd ones from Comp Products.

OR

the Crane 272H10:
Hydraulic, 272/272 adv Dur, 515/515 lift, 110 LSA, $100 with lifters...

Not an issue on price... But well within my budget...

I was thinking the 268 dur on the intake side would be a little better than the 272 for DCR, but probably not noticable...

What about idle quality? Is that mainly LSA? Duration? or does lift also come into play?

Thanks

Kinda like apples and oranges bud, kinda like comparing my old UD cam to an eNERGIZER. The Crower should totally ROCK, but look at the intensity of it! Again, looks like a small short track cam like I run.

Here's an example where the DCR calculator will miss the fact that the Crower is much bigger at .050" and .200". Pat should comment on that.

No tech assistance with it though. Hope it comes with a cam card! And I'm sure it will want 130/330 spring pressures like most street solids do.

A few years ago when I bought the UD cam, competitioon wouldnt sell me just the EDM lifters ( hence going to Crower for it). Hope that has changed.

Are you using roller rockers or long slots?

I am using the comp magnum roller "tipped" steel rockers (still uses the ball/fulcrum)...

On the spring pressures... Oh boy... No idea what mine are (stock Edelbrock springs)...

Edelbrock specs (per their website):
Springs installed in my heads are good to 6500 rpm with the RPM cam (the one I had).
Specs:
1.975" installed height
Rate @ 1.975" = 125 lbs
Rate @ 1.475" = 310 lbs (0.500 lift)
Coil bind @ 1.160"

Still thinking about that XS262 also (waiting to hear the price)...

In that Competition products catalog, they listed the EDM lifters for $89 (regular solids for $55), so I'd think they'd sell them separately... Dunno for sure though...

Tony, IF you go solid, in the same catalog, spend the $26 on Crane Kool-Nuts. They are a posilock with oiling for the pivot ball, i.e. made for stamped stock rockers.

Really curious as to what you choose. That Crower isnt the mellow street cam the 262 is for sure. It's a thumper cam I'd guess. But either would be a improvement over the lazy big hyd cam in there now. Good luck!

I like the Comp 280H for your setup. .525 and 230 @ .050 with 110 LSA.
Install it just like the card says which ends up to be 4 deg adv.
I has a 396 in my 70SS to start with and used that cam, performer intake, 750 holley, 1.75" headers with bowl ported 1970 oval port heads. Stock valves even.
The car went easy 12.60's near 108 mph. Had a nice crackle to the idle, great throttle response and for 3800lb car ran dang good.
I liked the 280H so much I kept it when I put a 454 in the car.
BTW this was with Th400, 11" conv and 3.55 gears.
Ron

I really don't know which way I am gonna go...

Price-wise (since this is a temporary crutch), the Crane Hydraulic from Competition Products looks really good- $100 for cam and lifters...

The Comp Cams solid (either XS262 or XS268) look pretty good, but $120 for the cams alone, $200+ with the EDM lifters and the Kool Nuts Gene mentioned... An extra $100-$130 is no big deal, except its still going to be a compromise...

I am worried that after doing the swap, there won't be a big difference... BUT, since most of the driving is done at lower RPMs anyway, there really should be a difference...

The Crower is out. Despite the lower price, there's not enough info available before a purchase...


Either the:
Crane Energizer Hydraulic kit- $100 total
(266/266, 0.499/0.499, 110LSA, 1600-4600!!!

Crane Energizer Hydraulic kit- $100 total
272/272, 0.515/0.515, 110LSA 2000-5000

Comp Cams Solid $120 Cam (~$210-$240 total)
XS262, 262/268, 0.532/0.532, 110LSA, 1300-5800
"noticable idle"

Comp Cams Solid $120 Cam (~$210-$240 total)
XS268, 268/274, 0.553/0.568, 110LSA, 1600-6000


I guess maybe that XS262 is looking pretty good... good for the DCR, a little better low end but still has a powerband to 5500+, "noticible idle"

I am so indecisive...

Thanks everybody. Although I am sure I'll have tons more questions before anything happens...

Gene,
would it really make a difference getting the EDM'd lifters for these cams... Not really heavy spring pressures or radical grinds...

Cheap insurance??? or not really needed?