Hey guys...I have heard that most of the newer sbc heads (Vortechs, Iron Eagles, Sportsman II's, AFR's, etc.) right out of the box will outflow any of the older sbc heads.

I was wondering if the same applies to big block heads?

I'm still considering doing a 402 (or a 454 if I can find one) for my Chevelle and was wondering if it would be even worth trying to install bigger valves and port and polish the stock closed chambered heads as opposed to shelling out $2k for a set of aftermarket heads?

Also does any aftermarket head company offer any kind of a closed chamber oval port head? I see alot of 119 cc heads....I was looking into something in the 101-110cc range. Need at least a 9.5:1 c.r.

A factory closed chamber head is your best bet.
2.19/1.88 valves are cheap..anywhere from $100-150 between Summit and Competition Products.Installing them and getting a valve job is probably about $200-300
You certainly do NOT need to spring for hardened seats either.You will save money there and NOT sacrifice reliablity.
The total cost of going thru them (including valves) and buying the appropriate valve springs (unless they're roller) will cost you less than a $1000

I guess Merlins would probably be the closest,they are heavy, and open chambered I believe.

I too think you would be money ahead with a good set of factory iron oval port heads. Casting # 215 is one of the best but they are all pretty equal. I run 390 casting heads with nothing more than a 3 angle valve job, and small manley race flow valves (2.06/1.72). If you already have the castings you are money ahead. You can get a standard abrasives porting kit and clean them up yourself and just have a machine shop cut the heads for the large valves and do the valve job. If you have a machine shop do everything you are looking at around 900-1000 for a bowl blend, valves, valve job, and chamber reworking. Chamber reworking- that is about a half dozen of one vs a dozen of another. Some say that the chamber walls should be laid back to unshroud the valves when larger valves are intalled, but some say it is not that critical at the lifts and rpm range that most of us street and bracket guys are operating at. If you are concerned about compression then be careful how much chamber work is done.

As far as aftermarket heads go, Edlebrock has their performer head in a 100cc angle milled configuration. The performer head is the same as the rpm head, but it has an exhaust heat cross over added for street use. The non angle milled version is 110cc, but every other head out there is at least 118cc.

1399$ for complete assembled NEW canfields are hard to beat.

www.Competitionproducts.com (http://www.Competitionproducts.com)

I see Edelbrock makes a 100 cc head p/n EDL-60499. It already has the 2.19/1.88 valves in it for $879. Sounds like this would be better as compared to trying to beef up the stock heads. What are your thoughts?

wow you guys pay alot for head work......im sure glade its still cheap here in kansas.....i had a set of heads gone thru and it was 190 bucks...

100 bucks gets you 2.19/1.88 valve seats cut with a 3 angle valve job and a 20 degree back cut on the valves you bring in...... 20 bucks gets the head resurfaced......it costs 5 buck for each cast iron liner that has to be installed for a bad guide.....

the most i ever ever spent for a set of heads being totally redone was 600 bucks ......i took the bare heads in and the machinist bought everything to work with my big roller cam, triple springs, retainers, keepers, seals, bronze liners, new valves 2.19/1.88, cut for all the clearences for the lift, tanked, surfaced....you get the picture.........

just amazed with some of the pricing that gets thrown out on this board for machine work.......

Originally posted by ddeennis:
wow you guys pay alot for head work......im sure glade its still cheap here in kansas.....i had a set of heads gone thru and it was 190 bucks...

100 bucks gets you 2.19/1.88 valve seats cut with a 3 angle valve job and a 20 degree back cut on the valves you bring in...... 20 bucks gets the head resurfaced......it costs 5 buck for each cast iron liner that has to be installed for a bad guide.....

the most i ever ever spent for a set of heads being totally redone was 600 bucks ......i took the bare heads in and the machinist bought everything to work with my big roller cam, triple springs, retainers, keepers, seals, bronze liners, new valves 2.19/1.88, cut for all the clearences for the lift, tanked, surfaced....you get the picture.........

just amazed with some of the pricing that gets thrown out on this board for machine work....... I'm sure machine shop rates vary across the county as does the cost of living and also income levels. It's all relative.

My machinist is very reasonable, but it cost in excess of $600 just in parts to assemble my 781 large oval heads. You get what you pay for in quality of parts and also quality of the labor performed. Although I sometimes under-guesstimate machine shop costs on a project, I'll never complain as the work I have done is always first rate.

I've posted it before, but I have right around $1400 invested in my 781 heads when done a couple years ago. This included quality 1 piece severe duty valves, titanium retainers, machined locks, ARP rocker studs, Comp guide plates, and somewhat cheap chrome-silicon street roller valve springs. Parts were more than half of the bill, and I had no porting done other than a simple bowl blend & a competition 3 angle valve job.

I'm having the heads freshened right now with larger intake valves, touch up the valve job, and new roller springs. Heck, good roller springs start at $200 and go up. Mine are $225 a set and are much cheaper than some of the ones I found which were between $400-550 a set!

Cost depends on what you are getting done. I've never actually spent that much, but those are the prices I got when I was thinking of having my heads completely done with port work. I spent about 220 on mine for a basic 3 angle valve job, bronze guides, and milling.

Now a good race valve job goes for about $200. Manley valves $170. Bowl blending about $200 depending on where you go. If the chamber is reworked you are looking at $100-200. Now with the other nickel and dime stuff you are up around $700-$900. Again a basic go thru would be nothing like this.

The head work adds up in a hurry, I've got $550 into machining for larger valves, resurfacing, 5 angle valve job, hardened exhaust seats, and bronze guides installed, plus $150 for valves, $50 for springs, plus retainers locks and seals. Probably about $900 invested in my 049 castings plus twenty hours porting. Maybe I should have saved a little more money and gone alluminum? too late now, we'll see how she runs.

Hey fellas, thanx for the replies....got another question....

Those Eddy heads I mentioned say their springs have a max valve lift of 700. Does this mean when selecting a cam I need to find a cam with a lift of less than 700?

Also these are the standard performer heads and not the rpms. I'm wondering if they will still flow up to 6500 rpm or if they run out of breath at 5500 rpm? They have 290/110 cc runners, if that means anything.

Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
I see Edelbrock makes a 100 cc head p/n EDL-60499. It already has the 2.19/1.88 valves in it for $879. Sounds like this would be better as compared to trying to beef up the stock heads. What are your thoughts? They are $879 each

The performer and performer rpm heads are exactly the same with the same port volumes. The only difference is the performers have an exhaust crossover to be 50 state legal, and the rpm's do not. Go to Edelbrocks web site and click on cylinder heads, then go to the cylinder head specs option to view their comparison chart.
Edelbrock Web Page (http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/index.html)

The rpm's are part # 60459, the performers are # 60479. They are listed in the same block with the same specs. The 100 cc version is # 60499 with the same specs other than the angle mill. I even talked to Edelbrock and they confirmed the only difference is the exhaust crossover.

Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
Hey fellas, thanx for the replies....got another question....

Those Eddy heads I mentioned say their springs have a max valve lift of 700. Does this mean when selecting a cam I need to find a cam with a lift of less than 700?

Also these are the standard performer heads and not the rpms. I'm wondering if they will still flow up to 6500 rpm or if they run out of breath at 5500 rpm? They have 290/110 cc runners, if that means anything. =
Yes, you need a cam under .700 unless you change the springs.

Also, regarding aftermarket vs factory heads it's pretty simple,, an engine is an air pump & as such the HP is in moving the air.
A better flowing head is going to make more power assuming it doesn't get stupid big for the intended RPM range.
Will an aftermarket head make more power than a stock GM oval,,, yes it will assuming the stock heads haven't had enough work to make them as efficient as the aftermarket head.
Kinda depends on where you want to spend your money,, buying an efficient set of heads or attempting to have yours done to the same specs.

The Ede head is a pretty good head for the intended use.
It is a nice upgrade to a factory oval & flows about the same as a very well ported set of factory ovals.
In comparison, the Brodix RR will flow in the hi 340-low 350's with the CNC chamber option.
The Brodix can be had with 119, 115 & 110cc's

Here's some info I posted a few weeks ago about the Ede heads/ cam combo:

Pretty simple basic bolt together deal, 489, Ede 60459 roval heads, Ede 5062 cam .527/.553, 224/232, 114 lsa, 109 icl. I believe it's called the Torker Plus, RPM intake, 1413 800cfm Ede carb, Probe rotating assembly.
Carb was great at part throttle like hi 13's, low 14's & pig rich under power like 10.5 - 11.4 (AFR)
Timing was 36 degrees, 10.8 compression
numbers were:
2800 - 267 - 501
3000 - 306 - 519
3500 - 359 - 538
4000 - 427 - 547
4500 - 460 - 538
5000 - 480 - 514
5500 - 478 - 456

The compression was higher than planned but the parts were as supplied & I just supplied the machine work & dyno time along with profiling the cam & flowing the heads etc.
Cam was advertised as 302/304 but measured a surprising 285/288 at .006. The rest of the numbers were right on.

Heads were 315 on the good "port" & 307 on the "bad" port. Here's the 'bad" port, I don't have the "good" one in front of me.
050 - 38/ 31
.100 - 74/ 64
.200 - 146/119
.300 - 218/150
.400 - 260/179
.500 - 291/207
.600 - 307/229
.700 - 302/245


Here are the posts:
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/9/18124.html?

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php/topic/4/23942.html#000004

Originally posted by Wolfplace:
Will an aftermarket head make more power than a stock GM oval,,, yes it will assuming the stock heads haven't had enough work to make them as efficient as the aftermarket head.
Kinda depends on where you want to spend your money,, buying an efficient set of heads or attempting to have yours done to the same specs.

The Ede head is a pretty good head for the intended use.
It is a nice upgrade to a factory oval & flows about the same as a very well ported set of factory ovals.Thanx. I guess what I was trying to ask is if it would be worth the $$ to try and make a stock set of oval ports flow as well as the eddys or not. I figured if it's gonna take as much to redo the stock heads then ya might as well ditch them and go with some aftermarkets ready to run. Of course the Eddys are aluminum so that will at least cut down on the weight some.

I do understand about the engine being an air pump. Which is why I'd want to go with bigger valves....so more air can go in/come out. At what point does having too much air flow "get stupid big for the intended RPM range"?

I bet there are all kinds of answers to this question. Rafel, from Houston, uses stock 049 castings and flys and others use Edelbrocks and go fast also. The only thing that i find to be a certainty is that a lot of work is required on all heads if want them to produce a lot of power. There are no "free lunches". Spend whatever you can afford and enjoy the results. Remember the phrase "the quality of a good job will be remembered long after the cost is forgotten".

The Canfields, for the money, look awfully hard to beat but....(there's always a 'but') the exhaust ports are raised .600 so, keep that in mind. Some people don't have any problem with getting their headers to fit, some do.

For a big block thats going to see alot of street driving and an occasional trip to the track, get some #049's(open chambers) or #215's(semi-open), get the 2.19 & 1.88 valves put in and add one of Harolds 288/296F10 solid cams with matching springs(very important). Try to keep your compression to 10:1 or less. Oh, and if you can afford it, get a set of those solid lifters with edm laser cut oiling hole...I think they are $99 from Comp Products. Finally, a Performer RPM or Air-Gap, a 750-850 cfm Holley and a GM HEI will finish it off nicely.
Set your motor up like this and your biggest problem will be keeping tires on your ride!

Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:

I do understand about the engine being an air pump. Which is why I'd want to go with bigger valves....so more air can go in/come out. At what point does having too much air flow "get stupid big for the intended RPM range"? I was referring to the size of the ports not the amount of air you flow.
A sewer pipe will flow a ton of air but it will not make a real efficient intake port :D
& a 290cc port is definitely capable of flowing to 6500 on a 454 & much further on a 402
For info, the Brodix oval RR port is only 270cc's & flows near 350cfm out of the box with the CNC chamber option.

How do those Brodix RR BB-O flow so much air? With stock exhaust ports 270cc intake ports and no work done to them they seem to out flow all other Brodix heads (to .600 lift) all the way up to the BB-5 w/ a 387cc intake port!
Am I reading this correct (from thier catalog) or am I missing something?
Mitch

Originally posted by hamrdown:
How do those Brodix RR BB-O flow so much air? With stock exhaust ports 270cc intake ports and no work done to them they seem to out flow all other Brodix heads (to .600 lift) all the way up to the BB-5 w/ a 387cc intake port!
Am I reading this correct (from thier catalog) or am I missing something?
Mitch I can't explain how they flow so much ....but I can tell how well they make HP/ torque ...lots of torque smile.gif .....just back from a day at the Dyno with my 439ci motor with BB-O's and a 468 ci with big valve 781's ....same cam and same compresion , same intake ...... same dyno
My motor made 45.6 hp MORE than the 781 468 !!! Don't have a scanner here at home to post dyno result sheets so no sense in quoting numbers without back up but no question these BB O's WORK and for the price over a good set of 781's it's a no brainer IMHO

Extremely pleased with results !!!
Big Thanks to Mike Lewis aka Wolfplace who supplied the heads at a great price and more importantly who ecouraged me to go for the 115cc CNC chambers

Bill

Originally posted by CDN SS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hamrdown:
How do those Brodix RR BB-O flow so much air? With stock exhaust ports 270cc intake ports and no work done to them they seem to out flow all other Brodix heads (to .600 lift) all the way up to the BB-5 w/ a 387cc intake port!
Am I reading this correct (from thier catalog) or am I missing something?
Mitch I can't explain how they flow so much ....but I can tell how well they make HP/ torque ...lots of torque smile.gif .....just back from a day at the Dyno with my 439ci motor with BB-O's and a 468 ci with big valve 781's ....same cam and same compresion , same intake ...... same dyno
My motor made 45.6 hp MORE than the 781 468 !!! Don't have a scanner here at home to post dyno result sheets so no sense in quoting numbers without back up but no question these BB O's WORK and for the price over a good set of 781's it's a no brainer IMHO

Extremely pleased with results !!!
Big Thanks to Mike Lewis aka Wolfplace who supplied the heads at a great price and more importantly who ecouraged me to go for the 115cc CNC chambers

Bill </font>[/QUOTE]=
Congratulations on the great numbers Bill graemlins/beers.gif
Between those heads that are "too small" & "aren't any better than ported 781's" & Harold's cam you should be VERY PLEASED graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Regardless of numbers, back to back tests on the same dyno tend to be very reliable & the numbers followed the 489 I did very well considering engine sizes,,

You don't suppose there is something to the "rumor" that there is more to heads than just flow numbers do ya :D

Thanks for the call today & thanks for letting us help a little with your project.

Originally posted by CDN SS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hamrdown:
How do those Brodix RR BB-O flow so much air? With stock exhaust ports 270cc intake ports and no work done to them they seem to out flow all other Brodix heads (to .600 lift) all the way up to the BB-5 w/ a 387cc intake port!
Am I reading this correct (from thier catalog) or am I missing something?
Mitch I can't explain how they flow so much ....but I can tell how well they make HP/ torque ...lots of torque smile.gif .....just back from a day at the Dyno with my 439ci motor with BB-O's and a 468 ci with big valve 781's ....same cam and same compresion , same intake ...... same dyno
My motor made 45.6 hp MORE than the 781 468 !!! Don't have a scanner here at home to post dyno result sheets so no sense in quoting numbers without back up but no question these BB O's WORK and for the price over a good set of 781's it's a no brainer IMHO

Extremely pleased with results !!!
Big Thanks to Mike Lewis aka Wolfplace who supplied the heads at a great price and more importantly who ecouraged me to go for the 115cc CNC chambers

Bill </font>[/QUOTE]Bill, quit screwin' around and tell us what the horsepower and torque numbers are. I can't stand it! graemlins/clonk.gif

Everyone will call " Bull****" if I did that . smile.gif even me !

I won't :D

Here is a question for ya Mike or anyone else. I have looked at both the Brodix RR-O and the Edelbrocks for my engine. I just haven't come up with the $$$$ yet. However my concern is my CR. I cuurently have 10.25 with my iron 390 ovals and speed pro forged pistons with a 21 cc dome. The heads have been milled around .035 to get them to about 97 cc's and I use a .020 steel shim gasket. My intake Piston to valve clearance on the tightest cylinder is .075. Yea, at the limit. So, if I get the Brodix and have them flat milled to 100 I would have to mill .095 according to their #'s of .005/cc. For angle mill they would have to go .114. Can they go that much? If they can will it take too much deck away and put the valves all up into the piston? 100 cc with a .039 gasket, since you can't run a shim with aluminum heads would give me 9.5:1. If I am forced to stick with 110 cc chambers I go all the way to 8.75:1. Of course the Edelbrocks come in a 100 cc version and the tech guy assured me I would not have any worse trouble with piston to valve clearance, in fact there should be more clearance with their heads than mine now. That is if I can believe the tech guy.

HOw about the old wise tale that an aluminum head needs more compression due to heat loss. Any real merit to this? I will be dropping compression no matter which head I go with, if I go aluminum.

Originally posted by 67Super Sport:
Here is a question for ya Mike or anyone else. I have looked at both the Brodix RR-O and the Edelbrocks for my engine. I just haven't come up with the $$$$ yet. However my concern is my CR. I cuurently have 10.25 with my iron 390 ovals and speed pro forged pistons with a 21 cc dome. The heads have been milled around .035 to get them to about 97 cc's and I use a .020 steel shim gasket. My intake Piston to valve clearance on the tightest cylinder is .075. Yea, at the limit. So, if I get the Brodix and have them flat milled to 100 I would have to mill .095 according to their #'s of .005/cc. For angle mill they would have to go .114. Can they go that much? If they can will it take too much deck away and put the valves all up into the piston? 100 cc with a .039 gasket, since you can't run a shim with aluminum heads would give me 9.5:1. If I am forced to stick with 110 cc chambers I go all the way to 8.75:1. Of course the Edelbrocks come in a 100 cc version and the tech guy assured me I would not have any worse trouble with piston to valve clearance, in fact there should be more clearance with their heads than mine now. That is if I can believe the tech guy.

HOw about the old wise tale that an aluminum head needs more compression due to heat loss. Any real merit to this? I will be dropping compression no matter which head I go with, if I go aluminum. =
First in theory going from cast to aluminum will lose power but,, engines do not read theory & I have not seen this to be true plus I will give up the proported losses from material & compression for airflow within reason in a heartbeat.

Now to the Brodix, it will go to 110 with the CNC chamber option & about 102 or so without the chamber option.
This is an angle mill.
The chamber option is not as big a deal on the big block head as the small block but is still highly recommended
It is according to Brodix worth about 20HP or so.
Normally I would recommend the CNC chamber without question but for your deal needing a 100cc head I would go with the Race Rite without the chamber option as 13cc'c is quite a bit of compression to give up if your numbers are correct.
I come up with 10.8 in a 402 with your numbers??
This is assuming a piston .010 in the hole.
Regardless, you will drop about 1.3 points going to 110 which is more than I would want to go.
This is worth probably 4-6% in power across the entire torque curve at a guess, not a good tradeoff in my opinion ;)

On the EDE, they are a nice upgrade from a stock set of ovals & flow right at what a very well ported set of 781's do.
I just did an engine with these including flowing the heads, profiling the cam & dynoing etc. & I posted it a few days ago along with flow numbers & dyno numbers.

If you are interested in pricing or exact cc numbers email me & I will find out for you or you can call Brodix & ask for Mark & tell him you are considering a set of heads & have been talking to me about them.

Mike you have mail.

And why can't the CNC chamber be milled down as much?

Oh, I am guessing the CNC chamber is larger due to the CNC work?

Originally posted by 67Super Sport:
Mike you have mail.

And why can't the CNC chamber be milled down as much?

Oh, I am guessing the CNC chamber is larger due to the CNC work? Correct ;)