Hey everyone. I have a small block 350 bored 60 over. I am looking to buy a new set of heads, cam, and intake for this engine. I would like to have a rough idle cam and I would prefer to be around 350-375 horses. I believe the crank, rods, and pistons are all GM with around a 10.5:1 compression ration. What would be the best head/cam/intake combo for this setup? Any help is appreciated.

Also, the headers I have are Dynomax Cyclone Cerama coated. I have had a problem with these header rusting. Is there anything I can do to these headers to prevent them from rusting so much? thanks.

You'll probably get better responses if you give a bit more information.

What is it going into, what is the rest of the combo? Trans, rear gears, tires, how are you planning on using it? I'd guess in that power level weekend driver with an occasional trip to the track? Or, is this your daily driver?

Well for one thing, what kind of price tag are you willing to put on this endeavor, and as mentioned, what is the purpose of this vehicle? A rough idle cam has a price to pay on the over all driveability of the vehicle, from aspects of what torque converter is in the vehicle (if auto) and if the vehicle has power brakes. At 10.5:1 compression Id lean towards a set of modern day aluminum heads, but your cam choice really depends alot on the car itsself.

If this was 10 years ago, id tell you to slap in something stupid like the old Crane 470"/282 for sheer racket at idle. In todays more modern times, perhaps Id suggest going with a friendly hydraulic roller....

If you share what you have in mind for the purpose, and how big the piggy bank is, youll get some great ideas here.

Well for one thing, what kind of price tag are you willing to put on this endeavor, and as mentioned, what is the purpose of this vehicle? A rough idle cam has a price to pay on the over all driveability of the vehicle, from aspects of what torque converter is in the vehicle (if auto) and if the vehicle has power brakes. At 10.5:1 compression Id lean towards a set of modern day aluminum heads, but your cam choice really depends alot on the car itsself.

If this was 10 years ago, id tell you to slap in something stupid like the old Crane 470"/282 for sheer racket at idle. In todays more modern times, perhaps Id suggest going with a friendly hydraulic roller....

If you share what you have in mind for the purpose, and how big the piggy bank is, youll get some great ideas here.

Well first of all he states he is looking for 375HP, so he could go with a hyd roller like the one below with a dart 180 head and make probally 400-410hp

222/230 @.050 .509/.528 108° lobe seperation

Ummm...I think thats basically what I was getting at in my post, but wanting 375 hp is kind of vague without details like how much money someone wants to spend, what kind of car its in, and what other parts are in the driveline.

Im sorry...its in a 1967 camaro RS-SS pro street. It has a powerglide tranny w/ a 3200 stahl, 4.10 spool rear end. It is not a daily driver, just sort of a "weekend warrior."

I would like to stay under $1500 if possible so a roller cam and dart heads are prolly out of my range.

do a 350 with 10:1 compression and a flat tappet hyd cam as follows:

- 234/244 @.050 .488/.510 114° lobe center
or
- 246/246 @.050 .500/.500 106° lobe center

Use a good double hump head with screw in studs and some bowl porting with a set of roller rockers and get that compression up to 10:1

Sounds like a good home for a vortec head setup and a Comp XE268H hyraulic flat tappet cam, should hit all your demands, work nicely with your stall, and not break the bank. If you find a set of low mileage heads (get the rocker arms as well) from your local GM dealer or auto wreaker, take them to the machine shop to have the guide tops trimmed down for the higher lift cam and a set of Vortec specific valvesprings, pick up a Performer Vortec intake manifold, and away you go.

How about...

a pair of these:http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DRT%2D11121112&N=700+4294925232+4294838998+4294867081+4294908395+ 4294908216+4294840140+4294867028+4294889107+115&autoview=sku

one of these:http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D60104LK&autoview=sku

and one of these:http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=EDL%2D7501&autoview=sku

This comes very close to your budget @ $1422.83 + $10 handling= $1433.83and I think exceeds your performance expectations and are all quality parts.

Plus in keeping with your pro stock look you get cool aluminum heads, nice air gap intake, and a cam that will have a nice lope and it all the parts should work well together up to about 6400rpm. Do you have a 650-750 carb already?

You want around 180cc head, air gap intake, and I would recommend a hyd roller.

I agree with the Vortec idea. The only issue I see is compression. I dont think a set of iron heads with a relatively small cam would would run on 10.5:1 compression using pump gas. If you can somehow get it down to 9.5-10:1, the vortecs would work great for what you are after. I think with a 3200 stall, something like the xe274h and a performer RPM intake would work well and put you at 375+ hp pretty easily.

I assume that 10.5:1 is with 64cc heads. If you could find a set of 76cc iron heads, it would put you at mid to low 9:1's which should work great with iron heads. Below is a vortec top end kit to think about.

Here is the top end kit ($1069)
http://www.sdparts.com/product/SD8060AAG/UpgradedVortecHeadKitEdelbrockPerformerRPMAirGap.a spx

I would go with an xe274h cam with 1.6 rockers. Here is the cam kit.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_29332_-1

Adam

Sounds like a good home for a vortec head setup and a Comp XE268H hyraulic flat tappet cam, should hit all your demands, work nicely with your stall, and not break the bank. If you find a set of low mileage heads (get the rocker arms as well) from your local GM dealer or auto wreaker, take them to the machine shop to have the guide tops trimmed down for the higher lift cam and a set of Vortec specific valvesprings, pick up a Performer Vortec intake manifold, and away you go.

If your on a budget Im with the above with the solid cam and some Vortecs. You will probably end up with only $150 for a solid flat tappet cam and lifters kit from somehwere like Howarsds. If you have a few more dollars still, then a set of aftermarket heads are still in order instead of the Vortecs, but stick with the solid flat tappet cam.....later when funds get better you can switch to hydraulic roller if you feel the need...although for a weekend warrior I dont see that much of an advantage considering how much more the roller set up will be over the solid.

If it is the case that your pistons will put you at 10.5:1 with a 64cc chamber, the heads below could be the hot ticket. These are the Dart Iron Eagle platinum 200cc heads with 72cc chambers. Assuming the above, a 72cc chamber would put you at around 9.6:1. That would be perfect.

compression calculator
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/motor.html

These heads are a little on the large side, but with a 3200 stall, I think you can afford a little more cam which would allow you to make them work.

Here are some parts that I think would work really well together and their prices.

Iron eagle platinum 200cc heads with 72cc chambers (9.6:1 compression) (~$1000)
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_314192_-1

XE284H hyd flat tappet cam (240 248 @.050 .507 .520 lift 110 lsa) ($180 for the cam and lifter kit)
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_29336_-1

Performer RPM intake ($140)
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_18708_-1

I think this would really work well together and give you the idle you are looking for. It would not be great for power accessories though. I bet this would put you right around 400 or more hp.

Adam

get yourself a 96-2000 vortec truck block.

throw in a voodoo roller, with different pistons, and a set of alum heads. 400hp easy.

im doing a 10:1 355 vortec motor, with 60122 voodoo roller 231/239 duration 535/550 lift with brodix ik180 heads.

aaron

Alright, so let me get this straight. Since this 350 engine is bored .060 over (flat top pistons, 3.48 stroke), I want to keep the compression ratio around 10:1 by using a cylinder head with a 72cc chamber? Right? A couple questions.

1. 180 cc intake runner or 200 cc intake runner?

2. I currently have an edelbrock performer rpm aluminum intake (also a Weiand Team G single plane)...Would I have to upgrade to an Edelbrock "Air Gap" to establish my desired horsepower or would the RPM be ok?

*Yes, I have a holley 650 carb and I also have a holley 750 carb

What do you think about this combo????
-Dart Aluminum cylinder heads 72cc and 180cc.
-Comp XE268H cam .480
-Eldelbrock intake (RPM or Air Gap??)

Or would this be better????
-Dart Aluminum cylinder heads 72cc and 200cc
-Comp XE284H hyd flat tappet cam .510
-Edelbrock RPM or Edelbrock Air Gap or Weiand Team G Single plane?

Which combonation would be better to produce over 375 horses with a powerful muscle car tone? The exhaust system is Dynomax cyclone headers and flowmaster 40 series. Thanks for all the great suggestions. Everyone on here is awesome!

i ran the xe268 cam in my old std bore 350.
it specs in at 477/480 224/230 110/106.
great cam, good for daily street driving.

with 336x heads (8.5:1cr), stock rockers, stock ignition, headers, duals with turbo mufflers, exhaust leak, 8* timing, powerglide trans, and over rich (holley 750 on top of a holley 300-36 intake), it made 268hp and 323ft lbs to the wheels on a mustang dyno.

i then put 461 camel humps that were ported on it, with 1.5 roller tip rockers, xpipe moroso race mufflers, and a 4spd. never had it dyno'd, but it ran a million times better, before the mains washed out. im guessing 300whp.

with 180cc heads, the xe268 cam, i think 350hp no problem, maybe even 400hp.

i would step the cam up to the xe278 (i think thats the step up), and you would be set with a solid 400hp.

to get the 10:1 compression, you should look to see what the manufactures recommends for cc size for that compression, typically its at 64cc.

60 over is kind of pushing it. if its been bored, and everything is fine, run it. if it needs a hone or a bore, get another fresh block to deal with.

aaron

Double check your compression ratio to make sure you are around 10:1.
I think the 180 heads would be great for your application.

I also wouldn't bother changing to an AirGap if you already have the RPM sitting there I don't think the difference would amount to much. Slap your 750 on it and save some bucks.

I personally like the Lunati VooDoo 60104 better than the Comp's but honestly I'm sure either will do what you are looking for. The Lunati is 276/284 advertised, 233/241 @ .050, and .504/.525 lift.

If you go Comp Cams look into the XE274H.

I plugged your info into Comp Cams "CamQuest6 program" (free download) With the XE274 it shows 418hp@6000, and 422ftlb @ 4000. Obviously these numbers aren't going to be exact, but it definitely shows you should be reaching your goal with no problem.

$500.00+ each?? or both??

Ok, i know there are no "dumb" questions on here so...Are 64cc heads out of the picture here? 64cc heads would put me at around or over 10.5:1. For a street application, is this compression ratio acceptable. If I ran aluminum heads, would it be ok to have higher than a 10.5:1 compression ration? Would this run on pump gas ok? What are some advantages of having a 9.5:1 compression ration as opposed to a 10.5:1 and vica versa? thanks.

I would build the bottom end with a 388 Stroker kit (a 3.75" crank). That would be the best bang for the buck for less than $1000 for a kit. Then top it off with good heads and a lumpy cam and your looking at an easy 425-450 HP. Fun to drive and on a budget! :D

As you increase the compression, you increase the efficiency of the cycle. The other side of this is that as you increase the compression, you create the requirement for higher octane fuel.

The primary reason for the need for higher octane is the increased temperature inside the cylinder. The aluminum heads dissipate the heat faster than iron, so there is less heat in the chamber during operation and therefore it reduces the octane requirement for the engine.

As a rule of thumb, you can run ~10.5:1 pretty safely with aluminum heads and ~9.5:1 with iron. There has been debate on this, but I think you can safely say that, everything else being equal, the 10.5:1 aluminum headed motor will make roughly the same hp as the 9.5:1 iron headed motor.

You could probably get away with 10.5:1 with the aluminum heads. I would just make sure your dynamic compression was not too high ( if you dont know what that is, we can explain it) and that tolerances such as quench are where they should be.

The next difficult question is to comparing the platinum iron eagle heads to the Pro 1's. I have heard good things about the iron heads, but I dont know if they would make enough more hp to overcome the weight difference with the aluminum ones.

Adam

As you increase the compression, you increase the efficiency of the cycle. The other side of this is that as you increase the compression, you create the requirement for higher octane fuel.

The primary reason for the need for higher octane is the increased temperature inside the cylinder. The aluminum heads dissipate the heat faster than iron, so there is less heat in the chamber during operation and therefore it reduces the octane requirement for the engine.

As a rule of thumb, you can run ~10.5:1 pretty safely with aluminum heads and ~9.5:1 with iron. There has been debate on this, but I think you can safely say that, everything else being equal, the 10.5:1 aluminum headed motor will make roughly the same hp as the 9.5:1 iron headed motor.

You could probably get away with 10.5:1 with the aluminum heads. I would just make sure your dynamic compression was not too high ( if you dont know what that is, we can explain it) and that tolerances such as quench are where they should be.

The next difficult question is to comparing the platinum iron eagle heads to the Pro 1's. I have heard good things about the iron heads, but I dont know if they would make enough more hp to overcome the weight difference with the aluminum ones.

Adam

So basically, there is no difference between a 64cc head and a 72cc head. Both will perform the same, the only difference would be a higher or lower compression ration? is this correct?

I'm running Vortecs with flat top 4VR pistons in a '99 Suburban. I'm sure the computer has something to do with it, but I've never run anything but the lowest grade of gasoline and I've never heard a rattle/ping. The Vortecs can take a bit more compression and less timing. I calculated compression at 10.1:1. They'll outflow the Darts as well. I think you could clean the chambers up a bit (do NOT remove the square bump at the spark plug, it'll cost you power) around the valve seats and smooth out the rough spots and get closer to 66cc's or so. You cam will make a big difference in how much compression you can run. I'm sure someone around here is running a FT/Vortec combo on a carb, try a search and see what you come up with.

Without getting into how the depth of the chamber effects flow (of which I dont know) yes, the main difference is that compression will be effected.

As for 180cc or 200cc heads it all comes down to what you want out of your motor. The most important thing is having a well matched combination. The 180 cc heads will most likely perform the best from idle to ~6000 RPM. The 200cc heads will probably allow your motor to breathe to ~6500 RPM which has the capability of creating more peak hp, but it will take away from the bottom end power a little.

If you went with the 180cc heads, I think the XE274H cam would be best. This would be a great setup, and make a bunch of low end power. On the other hand, I think the XE284H would be best with the 200cc heads. This motor would make more peak power but not have quite the low end power of the 180cc head combo.

According to comp, a cam like the XE284H needs a 2800 stall, so your 3200 should work fine. The glide hurts low end gearing a little, but with the 4.10 gear, I think it should still work fine.

The 200cc/XE284H would most likely be a faster motor overall and it would have more of the idle you are after. If it were me, this is the route I would go with.

Adam

Please check your CR. here before going much farther!!

http://www.campbellenterprises.com/Race%20math%20calculators.htm

I use a DITH piston of a stock, .025" and shim headgaskets anywhere from Fel-pro's, #1094's at .015" to Mr. G's at .020" w/ flat-top, say, -5 to -6 cc valve notch pistons to create as close to 10 or some above CR. that my cam will allow..

I would set my DCR at 8 to 1 and leave a little power on the table ONLY b/c of GAS quality nowadays is all.

Here!!

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm

Have fun playing w/ numbers and remember that these are sim. programs...........................

pdq67

Please check your CR. here before going much farther!!

http://www.campbellenterprises.com/Race%20math%20calculators.htm

I use a DITH piston of a stock, .025" and shim headgaskets anywhere from Fel-pro's, #1094's at .015" to Mr. G's at .020" w/ flat-top, say, -5 to -6 cc valve notch pistons to create as close to 10 or some above CR. that my cam will allow..

I would set my DCR at 8 to 1 and leave a little power on the table ONLY b/c of GAS quality nowadays is all.

Here!!

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm

Have fun playing w/ numbers and remember that these are sim. programs...........................

pdq67

What does this mean? My pistons are flat top GM with the notches on them

Dish or Valve Pocket [-] or Dome [+] ???????

Dish = -

Dome = +

You have notched flat-tops!

Stock type, I don't know?? It really doesn't matter to me....

pdq67

http://www.rosspistons.com/calculator.php

This one gets closer than any of the online calculators I've found. 4VR pistons have a dome volume of -5 - 6cc's.

Flat tops with 64cc chambers are 10.1:1. With enough cam, you should be able to run it.

Ditto BK!!

It will be a sweet STREET engine TOO!!

pdq67

Get yourself some Dart heads 180cc runners,49cc chambers.Those little chambers will get that compression way up there.Gotta buddy with those heads on his 355 sb and it makes great torque.Running 93 mixed with 110 octane.

In my old 406ci smallblock I had 10.2:1 compression,280H CompCam,steel heads (200cc),and a th350 I went 12.3's @ 110. Buddy with a 383 went 11:1,274Voodoo cam and Vortec's with a best of 12.8's @ 106 with a PG tranny.

I think the Vortec's are a good "bang for the buck" along with a decent cam (274 Voodoo ?) would be a fun combo and would get you about 13.0-13.5's ?

Get yourself some Dart heads 180cc runners,49cc chambers.Those little chambers will get that compression way up there.Gotta buddy with those heads on his 355 sb and it makes great torque.Running 93 mixed with 110 octane.

Just a FYI for those considering using these or the RHS 50 cc heads, rarely are these a bolt on and go head. Unless you are using pistons with machined valve reliefs and only a moderate sized cam, you will run into valve to piston clearance issues. One thing to look for in the wording of the piston description is, "compatible with angle milled heads".

My friends car has the stock 4 valve relief pistons,305 comp cam(.525 lift,253 duration)and the 49cc chamber Dart heads he is using have no problems with piston to valve clearance.I dont think those heads are angle milled from the factory(maybe Im wrong,I dont know)If they were,wouldnt he have intake manifold issues,like gasket sealing problems?He bought the heads and bolted them on his freshened up short block right out of the box.All I know is those heads really woke up that small block,thats for sure!!!He is using the edelbrock air gap intake with holley 750 DP.He hasnt mentioned to me any intake to head sealing problems.

That 305 must of been a dished piston, low compressioned engine b/c I figure a 49 cc head would up it's CR. a bunch if it was a flat-top pistoned motor!

Isn't a 305HO, L-69 a 9.5 to 1 CR engine w/ about 52 to 55 cc, (and even up to maybe 58 cc's??), -601 heads on it?

My pair cc at 53 and 55 cc's.

pdq67

Paul,
He's talking about the Comp Cams 305Magnum cam.. .525lift/253 dur @ .050
Not a 305ci motor.

no one said anything about a budget on this project ......

190 AFR
383 strocker
after market solid roller
single plane / 750 dbpumper
at least 4.11,s & a 5 speed
an a back halfed car !!! :D next queston ;)

Thanks Greg,

I caught it, sorry, my bad!

I got caught up in the 49 and 50 cc chambered heads so got over onto the 305HO, -601 heads that are down around 52 cc's on up.

Please carry-on..

pdq67

PS., 461RAT,

No, the aftermarket head factory would make sure even if they were factory angle-milled, that they fit like stock. Therefore your intake and exhaust manifolds would fit fine.

My friends car has the stock 4 valve relief pistons,305 comp cam(.525 lift,253 duration)and the 49cc chamber Dart heads he is using have no problems with piston to valve clearance.I dont think those heads are angle milled from the factory(maybe Im wrong,I dont know)If they were,wouldnt he have intake manifold issues,like gasket sealing problems?He bought the heads and bolted them on his freshened up short block right out of the box.All I know is those heads really woke up that small block,thats for sure!!!He is using the edelbrock air gap intake with holley 750 DP.He hasnt mentioned to me any intake to head sealing problems.

Angle machined would have been a more accurate term to use, they are cast with the small chamber then machined so all the bolt holes and intake surfaces are at the correct angle. The valve angle on those castings isn't 23 degrees, it's closer to 21 degrees. The valve that's going to hit first due to the angle change is the intake valve, which is the valve that can run with the least clearance since it chases the piston down the cylinder. I wouldn't be suprized to have him pull the heads and find minor witness marks in the pistons, or at the very least he has minimal clearance. I guess what I'm saying is he got lucky. We did a repair on an oval track engine that the customer changed from double bump heads to the RHS heads, didn't run very long before losing power. (bent intake valves)

Ok, with all the advise...Im thinking of something along these lines...

-World S/R Torquer heads 67cc 170cc

-Voodoo 60104 cam Lift: .504''/.525'' Duration: 276°/284° RPM Range: 2200-6400

-Weiand Team G (single plane) or Edelbrock performer?

-Holley 750 double pumper

OR:

-World S/R Torquer heads 67cc 170cc

-Voodoo 60103 cam Lift: .489''/.504'' Duration: 268°/276° RPM Range: 1800-6200

-Eelbrock performer or Weiand Team G (Single plane)

-Holley 650 or 750?

I think I want to go with the World Torquers in order to save some $$. What are your thoughts?

Top package with Performer RPM or Airgap intake will compliment your gearing/converter/tire package.

What Doug said.:yes:

Mark, you must have missed this...:D

I would like to stay under $1500 if possible so a roller cam and dart heads are prolly out of my range.