I need suggestions please. Just set my 454 in the car yesterday. Hooked everything up and when I started it up I get black smoke at idle and thru acceleration. I have set the idle mixture screws at 1-1/2 turns and nothing changes. I do not have a timing light, but set the timing by advancing until it had a hard time turning over when I hit the starter and then retard just enough to crank.

The carb is a Holley 4781,850 CFM, mech secondaries,dbl pump,dual line,mechanical choke. I just bought this carb from All State Carburetor in New York. It is a rebuilt carb and was supposed to be ready to go.

I do not know very much about carbs, so I am stuck. I have done a search and read several posts concerning the black smoke and each one I read indicated that this could be caused by a rich condition in the carb. Can anyone give a novice some help? I am willing to try anything but you will have to be patient as I am pretty dumb when it comes to carbs and trannies. I read a lot about powervalves and sqirters but this is over my head. :confused:

I have been piecing this thing togeather for over a year and was pretty disappointed when I fired it up and the smoke was so bad it ran my wife,brother and sister-in-law, and even the dog and cat out of the workshop. :eek: :mad: :( :(

All help will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Billy graemlins/waving.gif

Billy,
It is probably the power valve. They are pretty delicate, especially if your carb is an earlier model that doesn't have the power valve "blowout protection" feature. Your carb, being a mechanical secondary, double pumper, may have PV in both primary and secondary sides. The most common cause of PV blow out is backfire through the carburetor. Do yourself a favor, buy or borrow a good timing light. Also set the timing, statically before starting the engine.
When the power valve(s) is blown, raw fuel is going into the engine during idle and this is probably your source of black smoke. Wow, even the pets were in the garage when you fired up your car for the first time? That is what I call family togetherness.

Thanks for the help enginguy. I will try to get my hands on a timing light. I did set the timing at TDC when I put the distributor in, but beyond that I was guessing a little although I felt that it did need to be advanced.

Now to the powervalve. Do I have to take the carb apart to replace this or is this something that I can install with the carb on the motor? I have read the term powervalve in several post's but I'm not sure exactly what and where it is.

What would make the powervalve go out on the first start up? This carb was supposed to be freshly rebuilt by Allstate?

Thanks again for your help and patience.

Billy

Allstate did tell me that the carb had a 50cc rear pump. Does that mean it has a power valve in the front and rear?

Billy

You can replace the power valves without removing the carburetor. They are located in the metering block, between the jets. PV is a round valve that threads into the metering block. Engine vacuum holds the valve closed until needed. The blown power valve is not a defect related to the carburetor overhaul. The valve is usually damaged by backfire back through the carb, which ruptures the rubber diaphram.

On the top on each end there looks like something that screws in. Each one is located in the center. Is that the power valve?

Billy

I just spoke with Bob at Allstate Carburetor and he said the carb was built with the following genuine Holly parts.

Jets..80 front and rear
Squirters...31 front and rear
Pump....30 front and 50 rear
Power valves....6-1/2 front and rear

He suggested that I check the float levels first before I do anything else. Bob was very helpful and gave me detailed instruction on how to do this which was really great for a beginner like me. The screws that I mention in the earlier post, thinking maby this was the power valve, turns out to be the float level. Guess even someone as ignorant as me can learn.

Going out to the shop to check the float levels. If that does'nt work guess I will learn about power valves. I will post the outcome for other beginners benefit. I'm sure there are others out there that might have similar questions but are to timid to ask.

Thanks for the help again,

Billy graemlins/waving.gif

It's also possible it has a small piece of trash lodged in the needle & seat area which would prevent their complete closing.
I assume your carb guy explained in detail how to check the float level with the sight plug.
Just remember, to lower or raise the float, you use the large flat nut that looks like a jam nut that's under the screw at the top on each end of the carb. Use the nut flats to determine how far you've raised or lowered the float. Just back out the screw slightly (which is actually the "jam"), and turn the nut 1 or 2 flats at a time clockwise to lower the fuel level and counterclockwise to raise it. Retighten the screw. Start it and run it after each adjustment to use the fuel in the bowl and then re-check.
If you live near Dallas, e-mail me and I may be able to come over and help you line it out if you want. RGS4387@aol.com

Randy

Should have read all before i posted.

Thanks for your response Randy. Yes he explained the sight plugs. The procedure I followed was to "crack" the jam screw and while holding it in place with a slotted head screw driver fit a 5/8" box end wrench over the nut and turn it clockwise 1/4 of a turn. I did this after removing the sight plugs and gas poured out of both the front and rear. Actually the front had a minimal amount so I only adjusted it about an 1/8 of a turn. I was going to crank up at this point and let it run for a little bit and then remove the sight plugs and check the levels again. He said the objective hear was to obtain no spillage until you bump the carb and then only a small amount should come out.

Unfortunatily I never got it to recrank at this point. My battery was too low to spin the motor fast enough. I put the charger on and got some juice in the battery, made sure I got a squirt of fuel when I pumped the carb, and still nothing. I then started checking everything that was obvious such as power to the distributor. I pulled the plugs and found them to be black with soot and wet with gas. I cleaned them up and reinstalled. Was next going to check number 1 piston in regards to timing but decided to give it a crank to see what happened first. Gave it a few spins, it acted like it wanted to crank for a second then the starter gave out. It would spin until the motor was just about to crank then the starter drive would disengage prematurely. I stopped at this point before I got any more frustrated.

Today I am going to pull the starter and get that fixed. I think it is the solonoid so it should'nt be a big deal. Then I will check my timing and try again. The nice part is that the whole front end is still off the car so everything is still easy to get to. I will post my results again tonight.

Randy I really appreciate your offer. I live in Mansfield so that may be further than you would want to come from Dallas. If I don't get better results today I might contact you and see if you would still be interested in coming that far. I would be glad to reimburse you for your time and gas. Could probably also arrange a good meal and a couple of "cold ones" if your of a mind. Let me check my results and "frustration level" today and go from there.

Thanks once again,
Billy graemlins/waving.gif

billy get the starter fixed and get your self a new set of plugs more than likely you have killed the plugs if they were wet .you can turn the motor over and see if each plug is firing just have plug wire on and ground the plug as you turn it over if you want to check them first if they are good you will see them fire as the motor turns over

Thanks JunkYardDog. So you mean that even though I cleaned the plugs and dried them out that they are no good now? That's a shame, they were brand new NGK's. They were pretty sooty though. They looked brand new again after I cleaned them up with some Berryman's, but if they are no good I will get another set when I go to the parts store.

Thanks,
Billy

Something happened to me last summer which i would think is rare but you never know.I went thru the samething you are and it drove me crazy trying to figure it out.Come to find out my rear metering block had a hair line crack in it. Replaced it along with a new set of plugs and bingo.If all fails this is something to keep in mind.At this point sounds like you need to replace all the plugs and set the floats and go from there.

Billy,
Mansfield is only a little south of Ft. Worth. No prob. I live over in the Northeast Dallas area.

I would NOT take gas or money, but CAN be bribed with food and beer! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Just let me know. I'm self-employed, so usually any day except Thurs, Fri. or Sat. daytime. E-mail me and I'll give you my phone numbers.
When you clean plugs, use acetone or alcohol. They don't leave much residue.

If the starter kicks out, it probably the starter drive getting weak. Replace it with a Delco drive and you'll be OK.

Randy
RGS4387@aol.com

Check your oil to make sure that you haven't been draining gas down through the cylinders and diluting your oil. Check to make sure that it doesn't smell of gas and the level hasn't gone above full.

graemlins/hurray.gif Yesterday was my best day yet. You guy's nailed it! You cannot begin to emagine the way I feel even several hours later. Even as I write this I feel like a little kid that just woke up and found for the first time that he didn't wet the bed last night. You just want to call everyone and tell them about it! graemlins/hurray.gif I am 46 years old and feel like I just opened the new box of frosted flakes and found the decoder ring laying on top!

Ok,...... I'm taking a deep breath.....I'm calm now.... graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif .....Sorry I'll behave.

Yesterday I trudged into the shop feeling about as low as I did when I was 12 and Mama found where I hid those playboy magazines down at the barn (Daddy was a preacher so it doesn't get any worse). I had spent all night thinking about all the bad things that could happen.

I yanked out the starter,fixed it,put it back in. I pulled the #1 plug,brought it up on the compression stroke, pulled the distributor cap,saw the rotor pointing to #1,looked at the timing mark,saw it was pointing to 12deg which is the last marking on my tap,decided to move it to the edge of the metal on the tab which I estimated to be 14+ deg. Put the cap back on. Had stopped and bought a new set of NGK spark plugs. Now this is where it gets weird...............When I origionally installed the plugs on the motor stand some time ago I could not find my set of feeler gauges, so I just went ahead and put them in to see if the motor would crank. Thinking I would gap them later......Well you know how that normally works out. I decided not to leave anything to chance this time, still not suspicous that anything would be wrong,found the feeler gauges and checked the first new plug and to my surprise I found that it was set at .010!! I thought maby this was a fluke so I checked another,and another, and another....They were all at about .010!! Pulled all the old plugs and what do you think I found. Yep...all .010 to.015!!!!

How stupid do you think I felt??

Set the gap on the new plugs to.035,installed them, reconnected everything and decided to just bump the starter to test it. Had not even touched the carb as I was not attempting to start it, just wanted to bump it to see if everything was ok with my starter repair......When I bumped the starter the engine cranked!! Probably less than 1/4 of a turn and it cranked!! I could not believe it! I was so shocked I just stood there for a few seconds! This motor had always before took several turns to crank,probably 8-10. I turned it off,still had never even touched the accelerator,bumped the starter again and it was like magic!! Less than 1/2 of a spin and this thing cranks every time without touching the accelerator!! And this is with a fairly aggressive cam (292H) and TRWL2349 forged pop ups!

The idle was way to high so I quickly set it. Now for the best yet...............NOOOOOOOOOO Smoke! Nope no smoke,notta,non,ain't any. And it sounded sooooo wicked sweet coming out of those headers and Flowmasters. This beast is ready to play!!

Thanks to everyone who helped. You offered help and suggestions to a person who was mentally whipped and felt just about as low as you can get. Thank you...Thank you....Thank you.

Now I can procede with hooking up the drive shaft,shifter linkage,hanging all the sheet metal on the front, and then the first cruise. I can't wait to see what this thing will do with those 373 gears. I have never ever driven this car. I bought it a year ago with the body and paint done, but no motor. I can't wait. I've only got one thing to say....... graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/beers.gif

Thanks you guy's are great,

Billy

Congratulations on a job well done, Billy. Perserverance pays off again!
If you really want to wake that thing up, get an MSD 6AL box and wire it in. Then you can open up the plug gaps to .050-.060. That really cleans 'em up and makes 'em sharp.

Randy

Thanks Randy. I was thinking about doing that later maybe after I get everything togeather. Right now I am running the standard old Hei system. I have a newer Accel Hei that I will probably go ahead and slip in for the time being.

BIlly

billy your plugs will probable be fine now but with hei you can open the gap up to 45 which may help even more .glad to here at last see is purring now.as for as plugs go i once bought a new set put them in and 4 out of the eight were dead witch is rare but it happens dont throw your old plugs away till you regap them and install in the easest plug hole to see if they are good one day when you dont have any thing else to do

Thanks JunkYardDog. I may pull the new ones out and regap them to .040 since I do have an Hei in there right now. That's a good idea about cleaning them up as they seemed to be ok when I ran the motor on the engine stand for about 2 hours. That part is really puzzling. How it ran so good on the motor stand, then when I put it in the car it started and ran but real rough rough. The only thing my "shadetree" brain can come up with is that the motor stand had the engine sitting almost perfectly level. Now that the engine is in the car it has the natural backward tilt. This may have been the cause of the float levels being off. They may have been a little off on the stand but then the extra tilt made it enough to be more than the motor would handle. May have nothing at all to do with it but you never know. Like I said that's the best "shadetree" answer I could think of.

Thanks,
Billy

Billy, I just thought of this because I've seen it several times and in fact is the reason I bought my 67 Camaro so cheap.
I don't know what kind of car you have your 454 in but, if it is a pre-'74, be sure that the power supply wire to the HEI has full battery voltage and it is not connected to the old + side coil wire. The + coil wire on cars that were equipped with points systems was actually a resistance wire that had full voltage for a couple minutes after startup but as current flowed through it, it built resistance so the points wouldn't burn.
If you hook up the HEI to this wire, the car will start and run but the HEI won't be getting full voltage after a few minutes and WILL RUN LIKE CRAP under load.
The best bet on the early cars is to find a keyed 12-volt terminal on the fuse block under the dash and run a new 12 gauge wire from there to the HEI. THat way you'll be sure to have full, hot spark at all times.

Randy

Thanks Randy. That makes since. Actually the car is a 70 Chevelle. I have all of the front end off right now. I do not even have the wiring harness hooked up, that comes tomorrow. I have been running it with a hot wire straight off the + terminal on the battery to the battery side of the HEI. I have the starter wired with a remote start switch for now, I also have a ground cable running from the negative side of the battery bolted to the block and another cable runing from the block bolted to the frame.

As I mentioned I am going to start putting the wiring harness in place tomorrow. I am not sure how the previous owner had the HEI wired up but I think I will do it as you suggest.

Today I got everything going on the tranny. Had to install the B&M Quick Silver shifter as it was laying in the floor. Didn't really like it at first but after I got it in and all the linkage working right I kinda changed my opinion. Of course I am still trying to figure out how to deal with the top plate on the console as it is not for this kind of shifter. I may have to fab something out of a piece of sheet aluminum.

Ran into a little problem, I think, with the TCI 400. Not sure yet but I will probably post something in the tranny section and see what they say. Seems as if it leaks fluid pretty bad from around the rear seal when I raise the car on more than about a 25 or 30 degree incline. I am not sure this is right but I am going to check it again tommorrow as I now have the drive shaft with the yoke installed. It really doesn't look like the yoke would keep this from happening, but who knows. Maybe the seal itself is bad. Hope not. Maybe I can replace the seal without having to pull the tranny????

Any way thats my progress for today. Thanks again for the tip.

Billy graemlins/waving.gif

Billy, there should not be ANY fluid leaking when you jack it up as long as the yoke is in the back of the trans. If the seal is bad, you can replace it by removing the yoke and popping out the seal and carefully installing a new one using a piece of pipe in the proper diameter as a seal driver.

Randy

Randy, the yoke was not installed on the tranny. I posted in the xmission section and got an answer that sounds like all I need is to put the yoke in place. I just was not sure if that completed sealing the rear or not. Guess I will jack the car up today and see. If it leaks I will put a new seal in before going any further.

Thanks for your help,

Billy graemlins/waving.gif

Billy,
Glad you got the engine straightened out. As afar as the transmission leak goes, look at th center of your yoke. If it has a small hole in it, that is your problem. For some reason GM started to produce "ventilated" yokes. On our transmissions this hole is not need or wanted. Pull the yoke off, put a wad of silicone on the the end of a thin dowell and run the stick down the center of the yoke.Push the Silicone into the end of the yoke until you see it push out the hole. Let the Silicone dry, trim the excess, and re-install the yoke on the tail shaft. That sould stop the leaking on an incline.

Good Luck!

I installed the driveshaft yesterday, raised the front end about as high as I could and no leak whatsoever! graemlins/hurray.gif If I see a leak later on I will take the yoke off and look for the vent hole. Thanks for the tip. I did fire it up, put it in gear and found everything to be ok. I must admit that I did a pretty childish thing, in that after making sure the tranny was going into all the gears I just could not resist the urge. I put it in low and as I was setting there with all that power at my finger tips, I did a short burnout. graemlins/thumbsup.gif Felt good. Sounded awesome. Can't wait to get it on the road!

The next project is to hook all the wiring up under the hood. This may prove to be a challange as the complete wiring harness was wadded up in a ball and just hanging from the drivers side. I do have a good wiring diagram so maybe it will turn out ok. After I get that figured out I have a guy coming to hang all the front sheet metal. Probably will not get that far until after Christmas.

Thanks again,
Billy graemlins/waving.gif