This is why I use Scat & not Eagle.
I have posted before that I had no problems with Eagles rods but didn't use their cranks because of sizing issues.

Well,,,,, I digress.
Look closley at the pics here.
The little black line in the yellow section is the reference line & the gauge is in half tenths.
(.00005)
Each full number is one thousandths.
You are looking at about .0009 out of round out of the box graemlins/sad.gif

http://wsm.ezsitedesigner.com/share/scrapbook/19/190264/Measuring_Eagle_Rods_002.jpg

http://wsm.ezsitedesigner.com/share/scrapbook/19/190264/Measuring_Eagle_Rods_004.jpg

I've heard that before Mike. But I had two sets of rods/cranks that spec'd perfect (or as close as could be measured). They are inconsistent if nothing else!

Then again I upgraded to L19 bolts which required them to cut and re-size the rods, so if there was an issue out of the box it may have been fixed.

Just another reason why you need to measure everything, no matter the manufacurer. My twin turbo is a Callies race crank, Oliver billet rods, and JE turbo pistons. I will still do all the checking, it's just the way it is.

Jody

Ouch, I've heard to stay away from eagle before too, it was one of the main factors in me getting the scat 9000 crank.

Picky, picky, picky!!

He, He!!

How would you guy's ever put together a junk 301???

He, He!!!

I just had to...

Yes, QC suck's in a lot of instances now b/c it's ship the stuff out the door and if they don't send it back we sold it!!

pdq67

Maybe they use the same Sunnen hole gauge but thought it reads in mm.

.0008 mm would be pretty good! :D

Ain't no such thing as inches over there!

Mike,
Hate to burst your Scat bubble, but I just told a customer to send back a set that were .0015" bigger than the large end of the specs for a small block. They were round though. I have a set of Eagle SIR's that are dead on, size and round, but I have seen them just as bad.
Moral of the story is you have to check everything. The part that really bothers me about all of the "less expensive" cranks and rods is .... how many guys are buying these parts and putting engines together without checking things because they figure that the "parts are all brand new, they must be right" Then when they have an engine failure, they cannot understand it. You see it almost every day here on these forums. Check everything, then check it again. If you dont have the tools to do it, then pay someone else to. Just do not assume that new parts are correct.
Of course, any machine work that Mike or Myself do is perfect, so you dont need to check it :D

Now just for a "clarification". Have either of you gentlemen went through a new GM 454 or 502 Shortblock (I would have to assume you have) and how did it stack up?

Originally posted by BillK:
Of course, any machine work that Mike or Myself do is perfect, so you dont need to check it :D Man i hope so! tongue.gif

OH BTW Bill looks like I will be planning a 489/496 build up soon. Just have to get the body situated first graemlins/hurray.gif

Originally posted by BillK:
Mike,

Moral of the story is you have to check everything.
Of course, any machine work that Mike or Myself do is perfect, so you dont need to check it :D HHmmmmmmm. Did I read that right? :eek: graemlins/sad.gif

Originally posted by BillK:
Mike,
Hate to burst your Scat bubble, but I just told a customer to send back a set that were .0015" bigger than the large end of the specs for a small block. They were round though. I have a set of Eagle SIR's that are dead on, size and round, but I have seen them just as bad.
Moral of the story is you have to check everything. The part that really bothers me about all of the "less expensive" cranks and rods is .... how many guys are buying these parts and putting engines together without checking things because they figure that the "parts are all brand new, they must be right" Then when they have an engine failure, they cannot understand it. You see it almost every day here on these forums. Check everything, then check it again. If you dont have the tools to do it, then pay someone else to. Just do not assume that new parts are correct.
Of course, any machine work that Mike or Myself do is perfect, so you dont need to check it :D =
Hi Bill,
Perfect huh :D
And yesterday I couldn't even spell mekhinist,,, now I be one graemlins/clonk.gif

Yes, I check Scat's too & have had them at worst a half thou large or small but never a thou out of round??
Not even sure how you do that except at the parting area when resizing some rods, which is inevitable.

As I have said before, everyone screws up on occasion,,,(well except you & I of course :D )

Up until now, I have always maintained that the Eagle rods I have seen were excellent.
I don't even use Eagle unless a customer brings them in & this is the second set of rods out of two sets in the last couple of months that I had a problem with.
I ain't even going to get into the crank issue graemlins/sad.gif

Guess I've been lucky but in over 12 years I haven't had a problem with Scat worth b!tchin about.

But,, I do get them directly from Scat & know there are some "blems" out there that are getting sold, same as cranks which is a shame as I feel Scat or Eagle or whoever if they are going to dump "Blems" by the pound should at the very least take their name off or permanently mark them somehow as "blems" so people know but I guess that ain't gonna ever happen,,, seems it's to much trouble??

==========



Originally posted by LeoP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillK:
Mike,

Moral of the story is you have to check everything.
Of course, any machine work that Mike or Myself do is perfect, so you dont need to check it :D HHmmmmmmm. Did I read that right? :eek: graemlins/sad.gif </font>[/QUOTE]=
Leo,
I believe the smiley face at the end of Bill's post implies jest just as the wee gremlins you used imply disbelief

don't worry Mike, I know Bill and realize he is in jest. Just giving him some static.

Originally posted by LeoP:
don't worry Mike, I know Bill and realize he is in jest. Just giving him some static. -
Excellent,, static is good & he needs it :D

The bad thing is from my experience 80% of people won't pay for what it truly takes to continuously make parts right.

They "expect" them to be right but making things "right" costs money.

Personally I'm terrified to buy any aftermarket parts and triple check anything on the little I personally do. 90% of people don't understand the many, many issues you can have with tooling, heat treating, materials, machining, design, QC, PM, and other issues a company has to, or should keep track of.

All of this cheap overseas stuff makes it real hard for US companies.

The other problem is just because it is low or high in price doesn't make it good or bad sometimes.

Like Bill said, bad parts put false blame on either machining, assembly, or other parts.

If you really want to have some fun??? Get a shipment of Catpower stuff in and see how much of that has to go back ;)

Mike's post makes another dead-nuts-on relevant point about the crate motor war discussions going on in other threads. How many of the so-called crate guys take the time to inspect and measure ever single component that's going into the engine? None. Which is why my recommendation stands strong that there are three ways to get an engine. Build it yourself - fun, but not ultra-reliable if it's not your area of expertise. Have a high-quality independent shop (e.g. Lewis Racing Engines) build your motor. Or buy a GM, Ford, Chrysler crate for mild thrashing. Those guys that claim 900hp out of 565 or whatever the hell they decide to claim in the crate motor world are just fine with using parts that would send Mike's temper flying off the end of the planet.

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm going to spend my hard earned guidas on a platform that's going to make a bunch of horsepower AND I want it to last, I'm going to go the independent shop route. I'm going to find a shop that builds them one at a time and understands that customers are the judge of quality.

Best,

Mike

Originally posted by GRN69CHV:
Now just for a "clarification". Have either of you gentlemen went through a new GM 454 or 502 Shortblock (I would have to assume you have) and how did it stack up? Same with PM rods and/or other GM parts. Are they on? I would hope the high end rods like Oliver, Manley and the others are correct.

My Eagle SIR's were checked and were right on the money as was my Scat 9000 crank (in the middle of the range rather the the low side, however. So I have .0018-.002 rather than .0025" clearance).

As for pressure US companies feel, I can attest to that. My little company is under tremendous pressure. A US company is having a copy of our main product produced in China. They sell for 40% less then ours. If I meet their price I lose money. If I don't, I lose sales. We may have to fold after inventing the tool and producing it for 30 years. Makes me wish I had bought a US made crank and rods. China will never be the huge market everyone thought it would be. It will be out biggest competitor.

Pat,

Hate to tell you this. China will not be a competitor with the US - or rather the US will will be no competition to China. China has embarked on a master plan to build 100 industrial manufacturing cities over the course of the next 10 years. They are now the world's largest consumer of steel (50% of the world production) and coal. The ulitmate plan is the long awaited "Industrialization of China". As the end of construction nears, they intend to unleash their manufacturing might on the world. The trade balance with China will only get worse. Personally, I don't care for it and go out of my way to avoid "Made In China" whenever possible, hence my propensity to scavange for 30 year old parts for remachining and restoration.

Back to the other topic - how do the modern GM components match up for quality?

Two points to add, boys, go back, say 3000 years in history, reference " The Middle Kingdom ". Aint nothing mucn changed , but back then it was far east Asia, now its the globe. Under the Chou dynasty, Chinese felt they were the center of the world, surrounded by barbarians. They had no clue about the West. As you find communism/socialism giving way to a more 'pure' form of nationalism, suspect this ethos will gain traction again, particularly when they start flexing their muscle.( And I thought the OFs at CIA where flippin' paranoid brainiancs when they were spouting off about China, not Russia, as our new adversary - boy the last 15 years have proven them quite right indeed).

Two: learned this back as a young machinists apprentice. NEVER ASSUME! Boss would have us check EVERY PART that came in the door. New or not, including high dollar stuff. If you're not doing a crate, then you need a good machinist OR a bunch of very high dollar tools. "Hail Marys" don't work on metal spinning 7500 rpm.

Did anyone see 60 Minutes last Sunday. The lead was counterfeiting of products in China. Seems they are counterfeiting just about everything and the state seems OK with it. As for steel, their comsumption has raised steel prices substantially, 10-20%+ and rising. Some grades (4140 chrome moly in some sizes, for example) are difficult to get requiring 10-12 week waits. This puts more pressure on US companies trying to compete with them. I sure hate to see all manufacturing leave the US. And with India and other countries taking over none mfg jobs (a buddy is losing drafting jobs to Korea, and even the Republican Party was outsourcing fund raising to India for a while), the outlook is bad. I don't know where the consumers of the future, in this consumer driven economy, will come from.

I can tell you just exactly what the plan is!!

As soon as All our old money is gone b/c the grandparents and parents are subsidizing the kids and grandkids b/c they can't find good middle class salaried jobs with decent bennies, it's going to be all over!!

AND I figure about the year 2030 if all the many industrial economist forecasts are right!!

pdq67

PS., You know old money, the kind the old people used to save for a rainy day before everybody had to use ever darn dime they made to hold their too high standard of living....

Heck, we're so all fired deep in private AND public debt that if it went belly up, what would be left of the Banks and Lending Institutions AND the Governments would own everything AND nothing would be worth anything b/c the private sector wouldn't be able to even pay the taxes on it so it will all revert over to the Public sector!! BUT the problem with that is that nothing will be paying taxes so the Government would also starve to death...

That's when you get into dictatorships that command you to do what you are told OR ELSE!!

Sound familiar?? Kinda like good old Communism used to be before all the card carrying Commie Bosses stole all their own country's wealth...

I will probably still be around to see it happen AND I am glad there will still be a bunch of red-neck's toting guns... B/c when only the Gov. and criminals have guns then governments turn into criminals too!!!

Since we're so far off topic, I will say that for the company I am currently running, 90% of our software development is done in Taiwan. However, by the end of next year I will move two of the development managers (one will be here in October) over here and will create 70 new software development jobs in the US - i.e. hire 70 US-based software development engineers. This will be the second time we've run this drill. The parent company is a tech incubator that gets ideas for prototype from the technology base in Taiwan. We code it up and see if the early adopters like it. If they do, we productize it and roll it out in Taiwan. Once we achieve 50% market share in Taiwan, we open operations in the US and migrate R&D and product development from Taiwan over to here. Then, the base operation (tech incubator) in Taiwan can get to work on the next "breakthrough".

The one we did before this latest company, provided 220 jobs in the US - most of them still intact. Now we'll do this next one with 70 jobs by the end of next year, 200 SU jobs by the end of 2007. The impact my efforts have is not near enough to offset the number of jobs leaving the US, but I ain't giving up on the strategy. One way or another, we'll find a way to bring jobs back.

Part of the problem stems from the sheer amount of high profile technologists the national universities in Taiwan and India and such places are graduating. India graduated more tech sector PhD's last year than the US did. They graduated 53% as many MD's as the US did. Scary, huh? And the number of breakthough ideas, particularly in the semiconductor industry, that are coming from those countries is staggering. It ain't all about MIT, Carnegie Mellon, and Johns Hopkins anymore.

BTW, what 69 says about China is true. I spend a couple weeks there eveyr quarter and they have the equivalent of mini-cities built around huge manufacturing facilities. Last trip, I toured a new Clairol facility. It was huge, new, clean, state-of-the art. Right next to it, connected by skyways and walkways and such were a few stores and high rise living quarters - all right out in the middle of seemingly nowhere. The deal? Chinese government negotiates a labor rate with with Clairol. Chinese government keeps 80% of the rate (which is 1/8th the cost of the same job in the US) and passes the other 20% on to the laborers, which just about equals what it costs them to buy food, live in a new apartement, and a little extra "entertainment" income. China's not confused about the viability of their manufacturing source. But neither are they real committed to quality at this point. There will be an inflection point down the road where they dominate some markets and quality will become important lest they lose sales of products. For every major market segement (wireless is an example), China has a government "Minister of Trade" whose very clearly stated job is to dominate said market by whatever means necessary.

Regardless of all the impending doom, what we are doing as a company seems to be working so we'll just keep doing it.....

Best,

Mike H.

Originally posted by GRN69CHV:
Back to the other topic - how do the modern GM components match up for quality? That would be nice to know, and where it's made??? My Scat 9000 was a couple ten thou under.

As far as the rest goes it's all over and the country is gone. There will be nothing left except Immigrants and Wallmarts. Immigrants with there own history, heroes, culture, and no need for ours. What really hurts is the fact that instead of the media focussing on real issues affecting our future. The Presidential debate will be wrapped up in, abortion, gay marriage, diversity, extreme environmentalism, slavery, reparations, free health care for border jumpers..........etc.

My 502 gen 6 block was right on the money and the only machining I had done on it was a .030 overbore with tourqe plates. The deck height was .020 inch taller than 9.8 (9.820), but instead of decking the block my machinest and I ordered custom ross pistons. I used callies racemaster rods after my machinest said he doesn't work with scat or eagle because of out of round issues.

Originally posted by Pat Kelley:

We may have to fold after inventing the tool and producing it for 30 years. [/QB]Pisses me off as well Pat. All the hard work yourself and the rest of the family put into the company only to have the chinese take over the market. graemlins/sad.gif graemlins/angry.gif

Originally posted by Pat Kelley:

We may have to fold after inventing the tool and producing it for 30 years. [/QB]Pisses me off as well Pat. All the hard work yourself and the rest of the family put into the company only to have the chinese take over the market. graemlins/sad.gif graemlins/angry.gif

I have read that Japan was so good at copying machine tooks that they once copied a ding in a Bridgeport's ways!!! The things the tool rest sits and slides on b/c that's how the one they copied was marked..

I sure hope China and all the rest of the "Copy-cat" world hurry's up and copies all that is wrong with both our society AND our F/U Government!!!!

You know, air pollution, crack, gang's, politicians that care more about feathering their own nests then helping either the people or their Gov. SORTA CRAP, etc.... Then they will all be the best in the world just like we are...

Then all our illegal aliens and gangs and such will want to immigrate to their fair countries just like they do now to ours..

pdq67

Originally posted by GRN69CHV:
Now just for a "clarification". Have either of you gentlemen went through a new GM 454 or 502 Shortblock (I would have to assume you have) and how did it stack up? We do mostly 502 at the off-shore shop and have torn dozens down after failure. I spoke with GM engineering (they actually came out to the shop) seems GMPP likes to let the crank "self-clearance" the bearings so everything is set up tight on purpose. Rumor at GMPP is if it makes the first few hours of hard use it will live forever, if not, oh well. They are good about warranty though, Jaspers is better.

I just love that crap!! If it holds, it's OK!!

I used the same logic to see if the new recap, 8.00/14 mud and snow tires I used to buy for like $12, maybe $13/each from Sears way back in '64 or so would hold up..

Install them myself at the local gas station, back my '57 out onto the old highway in front of the station and as she was still rolling backwards, dump her and if the recaps didn't peal/pop the retread, they were good ones!!

pdq67

Originally posted by hilljack:


As far as the rest goes it's all over and the country is gone. There will be nothing left except Immigrants and Wallmarts. Immigrants with there own history, heroes, culture, and no need for ours. I resent that comment. I say you should think about a few things, things I've learned from my own life, through my own eyes.

1. You're complaining that things are going out overseas and you're also complaining about Immigrants working here. Now, granted I'm "young and dumb" but I've seen with my own eyes, the insided of a certain factory. A factory that makes the plastic bottles that hold your tylenol and advil and Pert Plus, Head and Shoulders, quite a few automotive cleaning fluids, and those nice comfy Reebok inserts in some of out shoes. These things are MADE IN USA, and that plant is FULL of Immigrants. Not only that but I've had to live a life with my own Immigrant father not being able to be with me and go to my games and such. Why? He works double shifts to keep that factory clean and maintained because the young American Citizens quit working his job because its below their status. So quite frankly, keeping things MADE IN USA might mean keeping the Immigrants we already have making it possible. Either that or start teaching USA born kids that factory jobs are important, worthwhile and decent. Thats my take on that.

2. You say Immigrants with their own history and heroes and no need for American ones. Give me a break. Sure being a 1st generation American, son of Immigrants, I do know some Mexican history, what was passed down to me by word of mouth. And sure enough my first language was Spanish. But don't tell me what my history is and who my heroes are. I know American History a whole lot better than some of the 4th and 5th Gen Americans I went to school with. MY heroes are the guys that faught in WW2. MY heroes are the AMERICANS that made NHRA and NASCAR what they are today. I own an American hot rod, with American parts in it. I chose to put a less-performing GM manifold on my car to avoid buying a China-Made E-brock knock off. I AM AMERICAN, my heroes and my sense of history are American.

My crowers were Dead-on out of the box!

What does it cost to have a set of these rods resized??

Slowpoke,

You got your quotes mixed up.

And for the record, we are all immigrants -including the tribal indians.

Sorry bout that GRN69CHV, i just clicked on the "quote" option, i fixed it now though.

Originally posted by Slowpoke70:
Sorry bout that GRN69CHV, i just clicked on the "quote" option, i fixed it now though. Yes that's true importing poverty and exporting America. I don't really want to go off topic again but there is a big difference between today's immigrant and yesterdays immigrant. The bottom line is we have had too much in too short a period. 90 million in the last 30 years. Don't take my beliefs personally. I'm also second generation immigrant and my old man spoke three languages and his English and knowledge of American history was better then most. That's the difference, when he immigrated you had to learn the language and assimilate. Now you don't!

I don't want to hyjack this thread so last post for me. I don't get hostile over this stuff, so I hope we can agree to disagree. You might find this reading interesting.


http://www.numbersusa.com/index

http://www.americanpatrol.com/04-FEATURES/040809-NUNEZ-BANDITO/040809_Feature.html

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/FamilyValuesLink.html