This thread was inspired by Pat Kelley's poll. I'm suprised how many stick guys chimed in. Just wondering what kind of times you guys are posting with a manual trans. I'm particularly interested in Muncie, Richmond, Doug Nash or Tremec users, not necessarily "race" transmissions like G-Force, Jerico, etc... I know Jim's in the low 12's, mr68 is running low 11's, how about you?
Kirk

Not sure what "Jim" you were referring to.
To me, not quick enough, but the new motor project in the garage should address that issue. Just need time at home to actually do the work. See sig for times.....

13.54 @ 104mph in a 3750lb 68 chevelle. Soon to be faster than that, as the old engine is being replaced with a more potent one.... ;)

I use an M22 that was pieced together using original (old)parts. I use a CF dual friction, 4.66 gears and street tires. I'd like to try drag radials sometime soon as well.

chris

Oh, how "quick"??? I read how fast and wanted to see some top speed runs.

Yes, I was referring to you Jim - how's that Tremec treating you? Have you settled on a cam for the new motor?

Chris, what are you planning for the new motor? Also, I talked to the guys at CF the other day, and they told me that they had a 12" clutch and matching flywheel that would be right for my combo. I'm seriously considering it.

Denny, considering the way that thread titles have been going around here ("Show me your dipstick," "Rear end heating up and smoking," etc...), I was just going to title this thread "How quick is your stick?" but I figured I'd just leave that alone. :D You are correct however and I will edit the title.

Come on guys, I'm depending on you to give me hope that I will actually be able to get my 489 '66 to hook up, not break anything and put up some respectable numbers (not that I haven't seen some here already). graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Oops, can't edit the title!

Originally posted by kboorman:
Yes, I was referring to you Jim - how's that Tremec treating you? Have you settled on a cam for the new motor?

No cam decision yet. Slow progress. I am out of town for a bit for work assignment. So the motor is still sitting in pieces in the garage. Tremec is installed and went for a quick trip, but then winter returned in Nazareth PA, so have to wait for the snow to dissapear again.

Originally posted by Epistuff:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kboorman:
Yes, I was referring to you Jim - how's that Tremec treating you? Have you settled on a cam for the new motor?

No cam decision yet. Slow progress. I am out of town for a bit for work assignment. So the motor is still sitting in pieces in the garage. Tremec is installed and went for a quick trip, but then winter returned in Nazareth PA, so have to wait for the snow to dissapear again. </font>[/QUOTE]AH, no you dont Jim. drove my car yesterday in the snow,and again today. but i could only imagine how a 4spd BB velle is in the snow. i mean i know how my glide 305 is, and it isnt to good. i think semi bald tires are a problem.

once i get the 350+ci motor in, and the muncie, and take it to the track, ill post times. as for now, all i know is, a 4.0l I6 Grand Cherokee can beat it, and that was about a half car length on me as well. graemlins/angry.gif

aaron

Yea, but I am not home. I am in Manassas Virginia. :(

13.25 on a 13.48 dial after getting a fender on a 13.89 dial on a MUSTANG at the halfway point! Lost on a double breakout. Speed was 104.8
Don't know where that came from, ran 13.48 run before and it was warmer later. Can still go faster if I could drive it better. Was my first summer of going to the track, and was getting to the point of running +- 13.5s consistently, but could always think of something I should've done better.
The manual transmission is what was the most fun. Internally stock 67 396/375 hp thru CF dual friction, M21, 12 Bolt 3.73 posi.

Mike

I don't have any times to post but would certainly like to get to a track with my rebuilt engine. I guess Numedia is closest to me and I have no track experience whatsoever. I've only been to a 1/4 mile strip once and that was 18 years ago as a spectator! My car has all the original drivetrain except for the "extras" on the motor(RPM manifold, 750 Holley, 1 3/4" headers, Ultradyne cam) and the M21 with 3:31 rears and street tires. What are some pointers for getting a stick car out of the hole and posting the best times? Try not to spin and just let the clutch out slowly or run the RPM's up to 2000 and dump the clutch? I don't want to tear this thing up(#'s matching) but want to see what I can do with it.

while i have had the chevelle to an 1/8th mile track, the times arent worth repeating. i couldnt launch at anything above an idle(street tires and no traction) and i had quite a few bugs that didnt show up until then.

im using a 2.43 1st super t10 with a 904 iron case and iron midplate that i rebuilt. ive got most of the bugs worked out, and have since installed an edelbrock performer rpm intake, carter 172 fuel pump, a line lock along with a dual res master cyl, an msd rev limiter and two step, and bought a set of 26x10 slicks. i plan on taking the car up to coastal plains raceway (1/4 mile) sometime this spring/summer. if everything goes right ill post the results when the time comes.

Muncie M20 see below.
Gone as fast as 116.48 just not as quick.

Alas,I have no business even being on a Chevelle board,but,a Nova is just a Chevelle on a diet......9.80s @mid 130s with a NASH graemlins/boring.gif

Originally posted by kboorman:
...I'm particularly interested in Muncie, Richmond, Doug Nash or Tremec users, not necessarily "race" transmissions like G-Force, Jerico, etc... FWIW, we ran 10.70s/126 with a Richmond behind a 383 in a 3500# Malibu and knocked .3 seconds and added about 3 1/2 mph by switching to a Liberty. (Running 10.0s now and shooting for low 9s if we get the new 381" motor in this year.)

whoops...

whoops...

Mild street 427, Richie RR box ( 3.04 1st) with 3.31s out back, best so far has been a 12.24(26) with a super mild 2.10 60'launch running at around 118 through the traps. Fun part with a stick and deep gears is that you pull 1/2 prior to the 60', so it's measuring you! ( my soft 60' times are from an easy 3500 rpm launch, when the motor/chassis really needs a quick 5000 rpm launch for a 1.8X 60' and 11.85s. I'll try and run some 11s this year hopefully before breaking something!) Fwiw, the hardest duty the car sees is the 'enduro' runs to Nashville and back 1500 miles round trip - so its WAY a street car. Nothing "drag" about it.

Kirk Last year I was running a 13.20 @ 112 with a 383SB 331 gear.This year I will try again with same car with a 468 BB 308 gear and same M21.Oh ya I will run 150shot nos/twin turbs@9psi I will be curious what it will do myself.

Originally posted by kboorman:
Chris, what are you planning for the new motor? Also, I talked to the guys at CF the other day, and they told me that they had a 12" clutch and matching flywheel that would be right for my combo. I'm seriously considering it. I currently have an 8.5:1 comp, overcammed 350 with stock heads, and I'm fixing all of that a new 350. Should be close to 9.8:1 compression, a slightly smaller duration, yet more agressive solid cam (compared to the current hyd. XE284), and I'm really eyeballing some Canfield or AFR heads.... By my mph, I estimated my old engine made 330ish horsepower, and I'm speculating the new one will be in the 400-425ish range. I really hope to get reliably in the high 12's, but I suspect I need to replace the radial t/a's in order to do that... smile.gif

FWIW I used to use a stiff Hayes clutch before changing to the CF dual friction. I really like the DF, I've abused it for a couple years. And it's still in really good shape. When I took the old engine out, I was suprised... I'm thinking about re-using it! smile.gif

chris

Not Chevelle..it's a '67 Vette convertible. But it does weigh 3600 lbs, has a pump gas 540, 3.07gears, and a G-force. So far best has been a 10.04@139.96. All motor on 93 octane. Made 2000 mile road trip last summer. Lots of cruising.

Recent suspension tweeks have made significant gains if the trip to the local 1/8th mile track last weekned is any indication. No more bouncing and it has run much faster 1/8th mile and 60's than ever before even though it was 96% humidity and it started raining on us.

Should have updated 1/4 mile times soon.


JIM

Originally posted by joespanova:
Alas,I have no business even being on a Chevelle board,but,a Nova is just a Chevelle on a diet......9.80s @mid 130s with a NASH graemlins/boring.gif ..the white one,correct?
I have a 1/4 mile run on video (from Bill Burke) of that car..awesome graemlins/thumbsup.gif

yes...actually I would love to have a 70 LS6 4 speed (original) car(Chevelle)......probably silver or white with black stripes!I like Chevelles....all my hot rod buds drive them! graemlins/beers.gif after seeing your pics thats one sweet ride too!

.555 reaction
1.95 60'
9.02 1/8 mile

runnin a M20 in a bone stock '69 Vette on BFG Radial T/A's spining through the 60'

here tis..

My malibu ran mid 11's at 120ish with low 1.60 60foot times. High compression small block on the jug 4.10's out back. I'd launch in 2'nd gear at 5000rpm so that i'd have one less shift. Kinda of asking alot out of a muncie,tires were M&H racemasters :D

Wow Joe, 9.80's huh? How do you get that car to hook? What kind of launch technique do you use? Are you "powershifting" that trans? I guess your suspension mods wouldn't really apply to my car since the Nova has leaf springs, right? My motor combo should be enough to get my into the tens, but getting it to hook will be the real challenge.

Brandon, I guess those street tires were a real handicap. Do you have any suspension mods on your '66? Keep us posted on the times you get with those slicks.

Rock, nice '68. How's that M20 working out behind the 489? What are the particulars of that motor?

Roger - now THAT'S the kind of performance with a street trans that I'm interested in. Your website says that you're using ladder bars and coil overs - are these the old style bolt on ladder bars, welded in, or a back half type suspension? Have you experienced breakage attibuted to using the manual trans?

Gene, so your shifting before the 60' mark with a SLR of about 10, huh? I wondered about that, since it is about the same as what I'm planning - TKO trans with a 2.87 first gear (I think) and a rear gear of around 3.55. What size tires do you have out back and what RPM are you shifting at?

Jim (540Hotrod), looks like you're headed for the 9's - sweet! I've followed some of you're posts and am looking forward to seeing your new bests. I wish I had the dough to plunk down on one of those G Forces!

BB485 - 1.6 60's launching in second gear huh? Very interesting! Any suspension mods? Sounds like it was hooking pretty well! BTW, nice web page but man, I got a ton of pop-ups while I was looking around it.

Thanks in advance for the replies guys.
Any other fast stick guys out there?
Kirk

Originally posted by kboorman:
Wow Joe, 9.80's huh? How do you get that car to hook? What kind of launch technique do you use? Are you "powershifting" that trans?You should see Joe's car in action. It's an awesome ride. Yanks the front wheels hard on launch, then yanks them again (on the 1-2 shift?).

Powershifting? Oh yeah, he shifts that thing like a super stocker. Have I mentioned it's fun to watch? smile.gif

I used to race my car as a stick. Makes me wish I hadn't converted sometimes. But to run that quick with a stick is just flat out hard on parts.

-gw

Kirk, I should have added, I'm still using the small BFG 275/50 DRs I bought when I only had an M20. ( short 25.5" high tires for more effective gear). I'd much prefer a 11.5:1 1st and the bigger 275/60 ( 28") size. 6800 rpm is all.

Kboorman the suspension was rear springs out of a wagon,airbag in passanger rear,and koni 90/10's no sway bar, wagon springs in front.Nothin fancy

I ran last weekend in my 1965 Biscayne 4025lbs without driver. et 11.72,1.86 60' 119.8mph. I am still trying to get the lanch down. I would like to back to the track this weekend if I have time. I am running a Richmond 6 speed. Next trip I will try higher RPM's on the lanch if all goes well.
John

Thanks,Mr.4speed and (gwarren,(hope to see you guys at Commerce).kboorman,Burnouts in 2nd,leave at about7-7,500.....shift at 8200 four times,thru the traps,trip the lights,clutch in,bump into neutral and drop engine speed to an idle and coast to turn off.......the faster you go the more fun it is! graemlins/beers.gif :BTW,kboorman..I'm a Philly transplant(born and raised)actually,last lived in Coatesville,Downingtown,Phoenixville area all my growing years...... graemlins/boring.gif

Originally posted by kboorman:
Brandon, I guess those street tires were a real handicap. Do you have any suspension mods on your '66? Keep us posted on the times you get with those slicks.yeah, the street tires absolutely sucked. even if i launched easy with no wheel spin as soon as the car hit the powerband it would start turning over the tires. at each shift the tires would break loose, on one particular run i hit third pretty hard and the car lurched sideways which wasnt too fun. luckily i installed a quick ratio steering box which makes correcting the car really easy.

the thing about a stick car is its hard to modulate wheel spin like an auto. and the fact that the manual trans shocks the tires really hard doesnt help traction at all.

as far as suspension mods, the front end is stock with Tom aka MC71454's shock nut trick. on the rear i have ssm lift bars, cheapo summit 3 way adjustable shocks, air bags, stock uppers, stock control arm braces and stock springs.

on a side note, i later found out the fuel pump was leaking like a sieve, the timing was retarded, and the vacuum secondaries werent opening(wrong checkball). which probably would explain the poor performance even though traction was non existant(mph was real low).

when the time comes i will definitely post the results. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by joespanova:
I'm a Philly transplant(born and raised)Lately I wish I could say the same thing. Man, it's cold up here. And if I see one more snowflake...
Anyway thanks for the info - looks like you and Roger have the big block guys covered here.

Gene, since you have stated that you'd rather have an 11.5 1st and a 28" tire, I assume you've done the math to compare (I'm too lazy to do it right now). How will this affect your overall final drive? Will it result in a higher or lower effective ratio?

BB485 - solid results with simple parts!

Brandon, do you find that the lift bars hit the tires harder or softer?

Question to all: It's been said that you would want as much gear as you can stand to help launch a stick car, since you don't have the torque multiplication of a converter to help you out. Which way would you go with the gear ratio if you were trying to get a big, torquey motor to hook as opposed to a high winding HP motor? (I may actually start another thread with this question just to give it more exposure, but all your responses are welcome here.

I need to talk about parts breakage too. I expect to go with a beefed up 12 bolt from DTS or Moser, Denny's driveshaft and the TKO 600 trans (slight possibility of that getting changed to a new M22, depending on what my rear gear needs to be), and all new rear suspension components (boxed LCA's, adjustable UCA's, anti-roll bar, etc). Again, maybe in another thread, but since I have your attention...

Thanks guys, Kirk

oops

What the heck am I doing? graemlins/clonk.gif

i use a 2.79 1st gear and a 4.56 rear gear, very fun to launch. best 60 ft is 1.61

Hotrod 540 and Joe, what clutches are you guys running? Street twin? I`m stepping up to G-force this spring after breaking my Nash street trans three times last year. How do you like yours Hotrod?
I just tore down my 496 to clean up the mess left by a worn out Comp cast street roller cam. Looks like all 8 cylinder walls are scored, crap in all the bearings, etc. Gotta buy pistons, etc. Might just buy a block and build a 565. My 3800 lb. race weight 67 camaro ran 10.80`s on a crappy 1.60 60` @ 125 mph. last fall without any tuning through the exhaust. Also drove it on 1500 miles of the Power Tour last spring.

Kirk

on the ssms, they will hit the tires harder. i forgot to mention, i actually installed the bars back into the stock location within the last couple days. ive read on here where SOME guys have gotten better 60fts after putting the arms back in the stock location. ill see how it reacts after i get the car back together and get it out on the road.

I love the G-Force..it's fantastic. They are really great folks to deal with. Say Hi to them for me!

I'm using the Mcleod Street Twin. It works very well. The old Centerforce was good until the HP got in the 800 Hp range. I had them add a little pressure to it when it was built.

I've actually been considering moving to a race type sintered iron slipper deal,,,,but I'm really torn about it. I think it might help me really get out of the hole, but it's street manners won't be anything as good as the Twin. Plus they ain't cheap either!

If you're interested, drop me a line, maybe we can work a deal on my Twin setup to save you some bucks and offset a little of a new setup for me. I'm still not decided, but who knows......I drive on the street a lot too.

You want to sell the Nash? I sold my old one last year, and then we found another one for a buddy's small block car. Now we need another one for another buddy's small block. They are perfect until HP gets insane.

JIM

Ok, 3.05 low in the Nash and 5.43 in the 9 inch Ford.........Clutch is Mcleod aluminum adjustable counterweighted plate with a cintered iron disc......just like what super stock stick cars run..... :cool:

Joe, I LOVED watching that video of you running! Reminds me of my first races I saw as a kid in the late 60's! Vivdly recall a Hilbourn injected 350 in a 61 bubbletop that launched much like the Nova. :cool: None of this electronically launched slushbox business! Guess a light flywheel works OK with a 15:1+ 1st gear !

Kirk, roughly mathematically equivalent. I gave my big 28" tires away to a bud ( less than half life left )and bought the 25.5" ones to aid an M20/331 combo. Now that I have to give the ride some more rpm on launch, it'll likely overcome the short sidewall tires before I find the right launch rpm. Therefore, I wish I had a 3.26 1st and the taller sidewall of a 28" tire.

I think my intuituve "guess" that you just cant have enough gear to launch a clutch car is borne out by the truly quick cars here like Joe's, Roger's etc.

IMPBISCUIT. Nice times! Can you share some of the engine particulars and launch technique?

Originally posted by kboorman:
...Roger - ...are these the old style bolt on ladder bars, welded in, or a back half type suspension? Have you experienced breakage attibuted to using the manual trans? ...Kirk - welded in Strange Engineering ladder bars. We had trouble power shifting the Richmond over 7000 rpm and had it "pro-shifted" by Liberty. That took care of the shifting, but when we stripped two sets of gears in 6 weeks (at the 10.70s level) we gave up and went to the Liberty.

Originally posted by 383Malibu:
[QUOTE]We had trouble power shifting the Richmond over 7000 rpm and had it "pro-shifted" by Liberty. That took care of the shifting, but when we stripped two sets of gears in 6 weeks (at the 10.70s level) we gave up and went to the Liberty. I guess that is where that quote you have in your sig comes from :D
Gotta have good parts!
Man, some of you guys have brutal stick combos!

Originally posted by kboorman:
[QB]...Question to all: It's been said that you would want as much gear as you can stand to help launch a stick car, since you don't have the torque multiplication of a converter to help you out. Which way would you go with the gear ratio if you were trying to get a big, torquey motor to hook as opposed to a high winding HP motor?.../QB]Kirk - If you are primarily concerned about track performance, select the rear gear based on your projected trap speed (i.e., trap rpm should be peak hp rpm + 5 - 10 percent based on how high and how broad the peak is). Then pick the 1st gear ratio to get a starting line ratio (1st gear * rear gear) that works for your combination. "Big, torquey motor" is relative. Our current 383 is about 530 lbs. ft and with a 3.25 1st gear and a 5.00 rear gear the wheel speed was borderline too much. In anticipation of the 580 lbs. ft that we are expecting with the new motor, we went to approximately 15 percent higher gears (2.83 1st) throughout the tranny.

BTW, if you're sticking with a street (read that not clutchless) tranny, I'd recommend the TKO-600.

Joe,wow...16.56 to 1 overall 1st gear with your combo :eek: graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by Epistuff:
I guess that is where that quote you have in your sig comes from :D
Gotta have good parts!
Man, some of you guys have brutal stick combos! Jim - You got it!! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

ive gone 11.88 so far, making a few combo changes and looking for mid -low 11's with my 350ci. in my Nova

Originally posted by mr 4 speed:
Joe,wow...16.56 to 1 overall 1st gear with your combo :eek: graemlins/thumbsup.gif yeah ,seems like a lot doesn't it ......but ,remember its with a 14-32 tire as well.but still my best 60ft. is only a 1.33......now if I could just get that 1.29...... graemlins/sad.gif

It's in the sig.