1997 Burb... May not be Chevelle but its a Chevy [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: 1997 Burb... May not be Chevelle but its a Chevy


ChaosEnvy
Jan 14th, 08, 10:23 PM
Okay, I have 1997 Suburban 1500, 350....

I'm driving along and it just goes kaput.. dead. Then it would start right back up and off I go. It would do this only once in a while, maybe once a week. This last week more frequently.
A couple days ago the Service Engine light cames on, a code scanner says, the MAF Sensor.
I restarted and the Service Engine light went away.

Two days later.. Thats today.. It died then started, a mile later died then started. Then again, a mile later it died. This time is took twenty minutes for it to start. Got a ride and picked up a MAF Sensor.. Swapped it out.. Burb started.. I made it 20 feet.. died again. 20 minutes later is started. This time I made it about three miles and it died again. I gave up, kids were with me and it was 15 degrees outside. Had it towed.

Now... What the heck is wrong with this thing. When is starts, I can floor it and it doesn't act like its starved for gas... it goes.

I'll be driving then.. the motor just gets quiet... then it dies a few seconds later.

The burb has a 350, new pump and pickup, and socks. New fuel filter.... new MAF sensor.... Why does it keep dying, and why won't it start now except after a 20 minute wait.

I was hoping to avoid another tow to a shop and a large bill.... What do you think.. IF you have any questions feel free to ask.


Big D

quikss
Jan 14th, 08, 10:47 PM
Yikes I read the other thread about this. First off, I am not certain, but a bad MAF should not kill the truck, just make it run like crap. Mine in my 98 went tits up and it just ran like crap.

What I would suspect is the ignition module. On your truck it should sit on the passenger side, just below the fuel injection unit. It mounts on a bracket that kind of sits up off the intake manifold, I recall it having heat sinks on it. Generally when these go bad they act exactly like you are saying. They will run until they heat up, shut down, and then when they cool off again they fire up. If you take it off most any parts store can test it for you, but they don't always test bad if they are. I have a few test OK, but the problem went away after replacing it anyways. I would start there.

Also you can try asking here: www.fullsizechevy.com or just try searching there, lots of good info.

Jeff

ChaosEnvy
Jan 14th, 08, 10:51 PM
Yikes I read the other thread about this. First off, I am not certain, but a bad MAF should not kill the truck, just make it run like crap. Mine in my 98 went tits up and it just ran like crap.

What I would suspect is the ignition module. On your truck it should sit on the passenger side, just below the fuel injection unit. It mounts on a bracket that kind of sits up off the intake manifold, I recall it having heat sinks on it. Generally when these go bad they act exactly like you are saying. They will run until they heat up, shut down, and then when they cool off again they fire up. If you take it off most any parts store can test it for you, but they don't always test bad if they are. I have a few test OK, but the problem went away after replacing it anyways. I would start there.

Also you can try asking here: www.fullsizechevy.com or just try searching there, lots of good info.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff,, yeah one heck of a night...

That makes since and I know right where it is at. I took it off once before when the car was dying and turned out to be the fuel system.. I'll pull it off tonight and have it tested on my way home.. It may save me that 175.00 if I can get them to take the MAF BACK.

Big D

quikss
Jan 14th, 08, 10:54 PM
Thanks Jeff,, yeah one heck of a night...

That makes since and I know right where it is at. I took it off once before when the car was dying and turned out to be the fuel system.. I'll pull it off tonight and have it tested on my way home.. It may save me that 175.00 if I can get them to take the MAF BACK.

Big D

Good luck with that, most auto parts stores will not allow the return of electrical items unless they are bad andf then it is just exchange. Worth a shot though. If I recall correctly my ignition module on the 98 cost me about $100. May have been less, I bought quite a few parts chasing a problem myself.

Jeff

Jr1964
Jan 14th, 08, 10:54 PM
Big D,

First thing I'd suggest is start with the basics. MAF sensor maybe throwing you a curve.

You've got it home. Start it, let it run till it stalls. Check if you are lacking fuel or spark.

I'd first check pos/ground cable at battery, see if they're loose. Wifes Astro had Neg wire loose causing bad connection/stalling.

Spark: Pull a wire off at the cap, have maybe your daughter crank the engine, check for spark from cap to wire. If no spark, I'd
suspect a coil or module faulty when hot.

Fuel: It's F/I so the pump in tank should hum for a couple seconds when ign is in on pos. If good, check valve at fuel rail (like a tire valve),
should be under pressure, spray out not dribble, use a rag. I'm not sure at this point how to check injectors, but
I'd crank engine a few, pull a plug, check if it's wet with fuel.

Wiggle wires around dist, harness at firewall, looking for loose/bad connections.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 14th, 08, 11:08 PM
Big D,

First thing I'd suggest is start with the basics. MAF sensor maybe throwing you a curve.

You've got it home. Start it, let it run till it stalls. Check if you are lacking fuel or spark.

I'd first check pos/ground cable at battery, see if they're loose. Wifes Astro had Neg wire loose causing bad connection/stalling.

Spark: Pull a wire off at the cap, have maybe your daughter crank the engine, check for spark from cap to wire. If no spark, I'd
suspect a coil or module faulty when hot.

Fuel: It's F/I so the pump in tank should hum for a couple seconds when ign is in on pos. If good, check valve at fuel rail (like a tire valve),
should be under pressure, spray out not dribble, use a rag. I'm not sure at this point how to check injectors, but
I'd crank engine a few, pull a plug, check if it's wet with fuel.

Wiggle wires around dist, harness at firewall, looking for loose/bad connections.

THe module is 69.99 at ORielly's.

I can't check the fuel rail.. its TBI, with the vortec plastic manifold with that crappy spider deal inside.. fuel rails are hidden.

I'd say from experience it is getting gas... and because: Its been sitting for about two hours. I just went to the garage... Turn the key on.. I can here the pump.. and its starts right up.. and will idle just perfect. Its when I go to drive it.. I get about a mile or so and kaput.

So at some point.. its losing spark.... The ignition module makes since... because everytime I let it sit for 20 minutes it starts right back up.... drive a mile or so.. and kaput.

Big D

ChaosEnvy
Jan 14th, 08, 11:10 PM
Good luck with that, most auto parts stores will not allow the return of electrical items unless they are bad andf then it is just exchange. Worth a shot though. If I recall correctly my ignition module on the 98 cost me about $100. May have been less, I bought quite a few parts chasing a problem myself.

Jeff

I should be able to take it back.. they won't be able to tell I used it.... I don't have the stock black rubber fittings, I have red poly ones and the leave no marks. I can pull that module fairly fast an just have it tested tomorrow at the parts store and hope it is that simple..... $69.99 for limited life time warranty.. and then up to 169.99 for other brands they have.. Oh joy.

Big D

Jr1964
Jan 14th, 08, 11:21 PM
THe module is 69.99 at ORielly's.

I can't check the fuel rail.. its TBI, with the vortec plastic manifold with that crappy spider deal inside.. fuel rails are hidden.

I'd say from experience it is getting gas... and because: Its been sitting for about two hours. I just went to the garage... Turn the key on.. I can here the pump.. and its starts right up.. and will idle just perfect. Its when I go to drive it.. I get about a mile or so and kaput.

So at some point.. its losing spark.... The ignition module makes since... because everytime I let it sit for 20 minutes it starts right back up.... drive a mile or so.. and kaput.

Big D

There is a valve on the fuel line just before it enters the manifold, but I agree the ignition is more likely the
problem area (ie. coil, module...).

Just trying to rule out possibilities.;)

ORielly's is a big chain, customer service and all. They should take back the MAF sensor.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 14th, 08, 11:31 PM
There is a valve on the fuel line just before it enters the manifold, but I agree the ignition is more likely the
problem area (ie. coil, module...).

Just trying to rule out possibilities.;)

ORielly's is a big chain, customer service and all. They should take back the MAF sensor.

MAF sensor was from Advance Auto.. they'll take it back.. or I'm getting store credit.... thats all their is too it.

I pulled the ignition module.. its ready to be tested. If the module gets screwy when it gets hot, will the tester they use be able to simulate this?

I usually go to orielly's but advance was close. The guys they have working at orielly's actually know something about cars.. advance auto.. not so much, but they are a big chain as well.

I'm hoping it the module.. take 5 minutes and $70.00 versus hours doing something else.

Thanks...

Big D

Jr1964
Jan 14th, 08, 11:43 PM
MAF sensor was from Advance Auto.. they'll take it back.. or I'm getting store credit.... thats all their is too it.

I pulled the ignition module.. its ready to be tested. If the module gets screwy when it gets hot, will the tester they use be able to simulate this?

Big D

It can be a hit or miss. Being in the business (AZ) I usually test them several times, even 5 to 6 times to try to get it hot
and replicate the condition to test bad. 2 or 3 times may still test good.

Could also be the coil when it gets hot. But GM is more likely the module.

g-man65
Jan 15th, 08, 1:23 AM
similiar symtoms in an explorer turned out being a fuel pump relay in the power box.....a $10 part:)

ktrim
Jan 15th, 08, 6:21 AM
does the check engine light come on before it die's?? there is also a crank position sensor that can cause similiar problem but will set the SES light

Morin69ss396
Jan 15th, 08, 6:35 AM
Dave, I had this problem with a vortec 350 at work . It did the exact same thing .After ripping our hair out at the shop trying to find the problem for weeks I found it !!! The distributor shaft bushing wears and the shaft wobbles inside the distributor. You could drive along and wham ! dead. Start back up and run for a while and do it again. We tried everything under the sun before finding that problem. Installed reman distributor and never happened again.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 15th, 08, 9:03 AM
does the check engine light come on before it die's?? there is also a crank position sensor that can cause similiar problem but will set the SES light

No, the light doesn't come on. It only came on once, and I had it checked.. came back MAF sensor. Went off, to never come on again since.


Big D

ChaosEnvy
Jan 15th, 08, 9:05 AM
Dave, I had this problem with a vortec 350 at work . It did the exact same thing .After ripping our hair out at the shop trying to find the problem for weeks I found it !!! The distributor shaft bushing wears and the shaft wobbles inside the distributor. You could drive along and wham ! dead. Start back up and run for a while and do it again. We tried everything under the sun before finding that problem. Installed reman distributor and never happened again.

Would is start right back up or did you have to wait. I have to wait a good 15-20 minutes before it will start again. I know there is fuel... so I'm thinking something is getting overloaded or too hot.. like a resistor. I already removed the Ignition Module... doesn't smell fried, but who knows. I'll have it tested today. If not, I'll move on to something else.

Big D

Morin69ss396
Jan 15th, 08, 10:05 AM
sometimes it would start right back up, sometimes not. When it dies and won't start can you hear the pump prime and shut off when you turn the key ? I know you said you heard it now with the truck cold. Pull the distributor cap and check the shaft play. It still could be the problem.
Most of the time mechanical problems won't give a code. If you get one it usually is resulting from the engine stall and it's (false)unrelated to the real problem code. remember the basics Dave !! forget about the pcm and sensors for now and verify two things. fuel and spark. Beat that thing around the yard with it warm wait for it to die. Then verify what is missing it's one or the other.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 15th, 08, 11:20 AM
sometimes it would start right back up, sometimes not. When it dies and won't start can you hear the pump prime and shut off when you turn the key ? I know you said you heard it now with the truck cold. Pull the distributor cap and check the shaft play. It still could be the problem.
Most of the time mechanical problems won't give a code. If you get one it usually is resulting from the engine stall and it's (false)unrelated to the real problem code. remember the basics Dave !! forget about the pcm and sensors for now and verify two things. fuel and spark. Beat that thing around the yard with it warm wait for it to die. Then verify what is missing it's one or the other.

Remember the basics... okay.. all computer code consists of 1s and 0s what create a hexadecimal string that the assembler uses to complete a part of a task, such as open or close an or-gate.

Just kidding, I already have the ICM off... and in my pocket... so might as well test it. When I get home tonight I'll put it back together, start it, and pull it around the back of the house. I'll do some donuts in the acreage in the back until it dies... and then have, the kids lay under that back of it and listen for the pump. :) If it has fuel, its obviously losing spark at some point. I'll check back once I find out anything.

Big D

ChaosEnvy
Jan 15th, 08, 5:48 PM
Had the ICM checked... made him do it 6 times... it passed everytime.... I'm going to go throw it back on and put the MAF back in place.. and start her up.... I let it idle while I throw together a quick dinner.. and see if it dies. Then listen for fuel pump.

Big D

Morin69ss396
Jan 15th, 08, 6:20 PM
Don't forget to check the distributor shaft too !!

ChaosEnvy
Jan 15th, 08, 7:03 PM
Well.. put the MAF, and cold air back together. Put the ICM back on.. And as I suspected.. fired right up. It's been sitting in the garage running for about 15 minutes... without even a stutter.

Check the distributor shaft how.... I know it will take me a good hour or more to even get to the distributor.. Have to remove the entire air intake assembly. The cap is not a normal cap(round with wires going in the top. The are all laid flat and splayed out. From left to right the cap is a good 7-8" wide.


I read on an Chevy SUV forum, that a guy with a 98 Burb has the same problem and had to get the upper intake manifold rebuilt... Spider assembly?


Big D

Alan
Jan 15th, 08, 7:35 PM
I read on an Chevy SUV forum, that a guy with a 98 Burb has the same problem and had to get the upper intake manifold rebuilt... Spider assembly?


Big D

I have a '97 S-10 with the Vortec V6 that has the spider assembly. When that spider assembly went out (two cylinders were throwing a misfire code) the engine ran like crap. Basically, it was not driveable. Maybe the fuel pressure regulator? I'll take a look in the Factory Service Manual tonight if I get a chance. There really isn't much else in the upper manifold except the spider assembly, and pressure regulator (on the back of the spider assembly). The distributor is more or less like an old school distributor, except for the (and the correct name escapes me) part in there that distributes the spark to each terminal. I'm losing it, can't remember. It sucks finding problems when you don't have a code to at least point you in a direction.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 15th, 08, 7:46 PM
I have a '97 S-10 with the Vortec V6 that has the spider assembly. When that spider assembly went out (two cylinders were throwing a misfire code) the engine ran like crap. Basically, it was not driveable. Maybe the fuel pressure regulator? I'll take a look in the Factory Service Manual tonight if I get a chance. There really isn't much else in the upper manifold except the spider assembly, and pressure regulator (on the back of the spider assembly). The distributor is more or less like an old school distributor, except for the (and the correct name escapes me) part in there that distributes the spark to each terminal. I'm losing it, can't remember. It sucks finding problems when you don't have a code to at least point you in a direction.

Its definately not running crappy at all... purrs.... Thanks for looking. Yeah a code would be nice... even nicer if all that computer crap wasn't there and it was just a simple carbed 350 or 454.

Big D

esponet
Jan 15th, 08, 8:06 PM
in my experience, igniter or ignition module canot be tested acurately. if they show bad then its bad, if it shows good then maybe its bad. imo its easier to test other things, ie power input for he iigniter, and coil. if the coil test ok, and the power inputs for the igniter are good, then i would rule the igniter no good.
i have had that same problem with my 94 burb. it was the igniter that was causing it.
to rule ot the fuel delivery problem, when you get it to not start, spray some starting fluid or brake clean, if it fires up and then die again, then you have fuel delivery issues. but again, its easier to pull a plug wire and check for spark.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 15th, 08, 8:50 PM
Currently the problem I am having is getting it to die, and not start. I had it going for 30 minutes... and it kept going this time. In typical fashion though as soon as I load up the kids and go to drive across down the problem with come back..

I'll have to locate the coil, it isn' hei, if it is the coil is separate from it. Can a auto store like AZ, AA, Orielly's, etc... test coils?

clarify igniter, location, how to test?

Big D

quikss
Jan 15th, 08, 10:23 PM
Currently the problem I am having is getting it to die, and not start. I had it going for 30 minutes... and it kept going this time. In typical fashion though as soon as I load up the kids and go to drive across down the problem with come back..

I'll have to locate the coil, it isn' hei, if it is the coil is separate from it. Can a auto store like AZ, AA, Orielly's, etc... test coils?

clarify igniter, location, how to test?

Big D

I would still bank on the ignition control module. The stores that think they can test them are full of ****. They can't be accurately tested except under real world conditions. Your best bet for testing it is to be right next to a parts store when it dies and quickly take it off and run it into the store to be tested before it cools down.

Your truck has what is called a remote coil HEI on it, and the coil is located directly next to the distributor, and if it is like mine, it is right behind the ignition control module.

Jeff

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 1:43 AM
I would still bank on the ignition control module. The stores that think they can test them are full of ****. They can't be accurately tested except under real world conditions. Your best bet for testing it is to be right next to a parts store when it dies and quickly take it off and run it into the store to be tested before it cools down.

Your truck has what is called a remote coil HEI on it, and the coil is located directly next to the distributor, and if it is like mine, it is right behind the ignition control module.

Jeff

Going to be hard to plan a break down infront of the parts store. :) Any other way, other than just forking out the $70.00, drive it and see if it goes away?

Where would the play in the shaft be?

2cool
Jan 16th, 08, 3:42 AM
D
Not sure if this will help or not but a few years ago ford had a computer problem where they would heat up and kill the motor after cooling down it would run fine, that problem got so bad you could buy the control at Walmart for $39.
Maybe your having the same problem and the other night you made it worse by not being able to allow it to cool down.

You check the dist. by moving the shaft sideways any movement is bad, you can also check the plug going into your ignition module with an ohm meter anything to ground is bad and the two wires should be around 900 ohms.

Morin69ss396
Jan 16th, 08, 6:24 AM
dave you don't need to pull the upper plenum to get to the distributor cap. Its a little hard to see but it can easily be done. We do it all the time in my shop. Just basic tune up stuff.

So.....with hat you said you haven't even done a basic tune-up on the burb ? Cap,rotor, and plugs ?

The other thing I have seen is a fuel filter plugging up. I will pack full of rust sediment and die. then when it sits for a while and fuel pressure bleeds off the crap in the filter settles and it will run for a while. Its a long shot but it happens. when was the last time it had a filter ? ever ?

Its all just random ideas until you can isolate the problem a little more.

You need to find out if it's a fuel problem ie: bad regulator,dirty filter,bad/overheating pump,fuel pump relay etc...etc...

Or and ignition/computer problem ignition module overheating, bad coil,bad cap+ rotor,bad tps,etc.etc....

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 9:15 AM
dave you don't need to pull the upper plenum to get to the distributor cap. Its a little hard to see but it can easily be done. We do it all the time in my shop. Just basic tune up stuff.

So.....with hat you said you haven't even done a basic tune-up on the burb ? Cap,rotor, and plugs ?

The other thing I have seen is a fuel filter plugging up. I will pack full of rust sediment and die. then when it sits for a while and fuel pressure bleeds off the crap in the filter settles and it will run for a while. Its a long shot but it happens. when was the last time it had a filter ? ever ?

Its all just random ideas until you can isolate the problem a little more.

You need to find out if it's a fuel problem ie: bad regulator,dirty filter,bad/overheating pump,fuel pump relay etc...etc...

Or and ignition/computer problem ignition module overheating, bad coil,bad cap+ rotor,bad tps,etc.etc....

Do I need to pull the distributor out.. of just test the shaft under the cap. If I pull it out, I guess I just need to remember, to mark everything to keep the timing straight.

Doh!.. I'm guilty there... I don't know what if the dealer did anything to it, but no, in the last 12 months I have not did a cap/rotor/plug change... Guess I am too stressed to even consider the small possibilities.

The Filter/Pump/Socks/etc were changed about 6 months ago. When I had the tank down, it was sparkly clean inside.


Yeah.. I need to find out if Sparks Stops, or if Fuel Stops...but I can't see to get it to die now.. its playing games with my head....

Big D.

2cool
Jan 16th, 08, 11:54 AM
D
One of the hardest things to find is an intermediate problem, you don't pull the dizzy just to check it.
Your going to have to make it break down again so get a spark tester that plugs into a wire or the dizzy, a fuel pressure gauge and locate the connection on the fuel rail (assuming it's injected most are now) and locate the computer.
When it happens check them all if the computer is real hot to the touch I would change that.
A remote start would be nice too if it has a throttle body you can see the fuel being pumped while you trying to start it.

A friend of mine had this happen to him and it would run after sitting for a while then finally no spark at all turned out to be the ignition module.

Morin69ss396
Jan 16th, 08, 12:06 PM
just pull the cap off and wiggle the shaft side to side. If there is slop in the shaft you will feel it. take a good look at the cap and rotor if you pull it off. If it's all burned and carbon tracked inside replace it !
right now i'd lean more towards it being the module or coil with what you've said it does. ????

DFER
Jan 16th, 08, 12:22 PM
Dave:
I've had this same style of problem in the past on my Mom's Chevy Caprice and a Nissan Sentra. Each time it turned out to be the ignition module. They won't test bad necessarily as Jim mentioned above. I bought a new module from AZone and put it on my Mom's car following all the instructions ( kinda hard to screw something like this up) and it wouldn't work. Took it to the repair shop I used to work at and they replaced the module and the car ran perfect. The point to my message is be mindful of the quality of electrical parts.

Good Luck.
Durand

Alan
Jan 16th, 08, 1:39 PM
The factory service manual for the '97 S-10 V6 I have says to perform a Powertrain OBD test first (you'd need a Scan Tool). If not performing that there's a chart for "Cranks but does not run". This also refers you to the charts for CMP (Camshaft Position Sensor - in the distributor), CKP (Crankshaft Position Sensor - front lower of engine by the balancer), ICM (Ignition Control Module), and Ignition Coil. The "Cranks but does not run" begins with monitoring the TP (Throttle Position) values (should be less than 2.5V with throttle closed) with a Scan Tool. Then, monitor the ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor) values (should be above -30*C). If those two valves are OK, you then check that the fuel pump operates for 2 seconds then stops when the ignition is moved to the ON position.

From here these are the next steps:

5. Disconnect injector connector at intake manifold. With a grounded test light, probe the injector ignition feed circuit. Is the test light on? If yes, go to step 6.

6. Disconnect a spark plug wire from spark plug. Verify spark when ignition is in START position. If there is spark, go to step 7.

7. Verify fuel pressure. [60-66 psi is what it's calling for for my application]. Also, you should verify that fuel pressure holds steady over a period of time.

At this point, you either go to the Fuel Injector Coil Test chart, or Fuel System Pressure Test chart. I have to fly out to Denver today, but I'll take a copy of these two charts in case you need me to run down the procedures of those charts.

Good luck. Some of it is easy to test, but without the nice Scan Tool it can be difficult to check values and parameters. Sometimes (for us ShadeTree guys, it comes down to replacing parts to test new parts or take to repair shop). When my spider assembly went out, Chevy replaced it for free even though I had 143000 miles on the truck (10 yr./200,000 warranty is what the dealer told me for that spider assembly). Sometimes you just get lucky I guess!

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 2:49 PM
This blows.. I can't just start replacing parts.. they aren't free. I had the ICM tested.. came back good, but more than one person said the test can be debunked. Also, i need to have it in the not running mode to test anything. So far I haven't been able to get it there. I will attemp again tonight and see what I can do.

If the burb ran for a half an hour mostly idle... wouldn't that be long enough to get some kind of reaction out of the ICM. Last Friday, it died, but started right back. I drove 148 miles thats evening.. an on the highway there was 1 moment when the RPM's instantly dropped and the burb was going to die, but it came back.

Right now, I don't know how long it would take to get it to the "Won't Start Stage" again. A ODB scanner comes up with zero codes.


I don't have half the tools mention in the above post, but I will do what I can with what I have.

Big D

Alan
Jan 16th, 08, 3:27 PM
It's frustrating Big D. Been there done that. I tested what I could. Even had a guy who went through auto tech school and was looking to get on with a BMW dealership try and help. He couldn't figure it out either, and he had a Scan Tool. I gave up and had the truck towed to the dealer. I was prepared to pay as it didn't make sense to me to just replace parts (I'd replaced just about everything except for the spider assembly and distributor when doing a tune up anyway, so there weren't a whole lot of possibilities left).

You can typically, rent some of these tools through say Auto Zone or similar auto parts store. Then you at least wouldn't have to buy them. The above post I made, were steps to take when you don't have a check engine light on.

wayne442
Jan 16th, 08, 4:25 PM
I would check the wires going to the coil, for some reason the get pulled on. While its running pull on the wires going to the coil. Wayne

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 5:39 PM
Okay... Guys.. I may have got lucky and have a new path.

I got home with the kids.... got them all settled and went out to the garage. Opened it up about half way.. and started the burb. It started right up.... I came in the house and it died. Bingo... Turned the key.. not starting.

I pulled the key out.... waited a few seconds and put the key back in.. Turned it to start... I don't hear the pump.

Called my daughter in just to be sure.. told her to lay down in the back and tell me if you hear buzzing. This time I turned it to start.. and I was clearly able to hear the pump it was running this time.

Turned the key and it started right up. Ran for about 30 seconds.. dead again. Removed key..then put the key back in.. still not hearing the pump.

When it does come on its nice and strong.... so... now guys... The pump is new a quality piece not a crap piece from AZ. (No offense if you work there) So if I assume the pump is fine.. what would cause it to stop? The truck didn't even run long enough to get the pipes hot.

Big D

2cool
Jan 16th, 08, 6:20 PM
You need to check and see if it's getting a spark at the plug when it wont crank up.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 6:28 PM
You need to check and see if it's getting a spark at the plug when it wont crank up.

Okay... If the pump isn't running.... wouldn't that likely be the fuel pump relay?

I'll go check that dang spark now too.. brb... Big D

2cool
Jan 16th, 08, 6:32 PM
It only runs when pressure is down so unless you have a gauge on the fuel line it might just be up to pressure.
If it comes on after a few then it sounds like it's working, a gauge would let you see whats going on.

You either need spark or gas one of the two.

furball8994
Jan 16th, 08, 6:33 PM
You need to check and see if it's getting a park at the plug when it wont crank up.

I agree Dave. A fuel pump shutting off will give more of a running out of gas condition. Even with FI, You will get some bucking before it dies. The immediate shut down sounds like more of a ignition problem.

Try this. Find the fuel pump fuse. (should be under the hood) Start it and remove the fuse. It should sputter as it dies.

You also mentioned that on one occasion While driving, The Tach dropped to zero and it tried to die but picked back up. That is without a doubt, Ignition related.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 6:34 PM
Okay.. Spark is there.. big snappy wappy ones...

I have spark.. I don't have fuel....

Big D

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 6:34 PM
I agree Dave. A fuel pump shutting off will give more of a running out of gas condition. Even with FI, You will get some bucking before it dies. The immediate shut down sounds like more of a ignition problem.

Try this. Find the fuel pump fuse. (should be under the hood) Start it and remove the fuse. It should sputter as it dies.

You also mentioned that on one occasion While driving, The Tach dropped to zero and it tried to die but picked back up. That is without a doubt, Ignition related.

Didn't drop to Zero.... it just went down... and exhaust note went away... then it came back.

furball8994
Jan 16th, 08, 6:35 PM
Was spark there when it wouldn't start?

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 6:35 PM
It is in the no start condition right now.. I have Good Spark.. No fuel.


Sorry. trying to rush it cause in a few minutes it'll probably be back to normal :)

Big D

furball8994
Jan 16th, 08, 6:37 PM
Scrap my first post!! LOL

Its got to be a relay for the pump then. I'm not to familiar with the FI setups.
Hopefully with this new info. One of the experts can diagnose your problem now.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 6:40 PM
I just read the relay only powers the pump on for the first 2 seconds, after that the PCM does it.... Okay..so maybe not the relay... Could my pump have gone out again?

Big D

Morin69ss396
Jan 16th, 08, 6:46 PM
before you jump to buy another pump check the connections at the plug. There is a connector 6 inches or so from the sending unit. It could be loose,corroded or dirty. atleast you have some direction to look now. keep plugging away Dave you'll find the problem

furball8994
Jan 16th, 08, 6:46 PM
I believe there are more than one relay (using relay loosely to describe anything that may trigger the pump). As I said. I am not that familiar with these setups but I would think there would be pressure sensors to tell the PCM to turn it on or off.

LKN BCK
Jan 16th, 08, 7:11 PM
Do you have a locking Gas cap?
Maybe someone (?) dumped water or something in your tank...
I would not have mentioned this but you have been going thru trying times recently!

My brothers 96 Chevy truck fuel pump went bad 2 times in one winter.
Something about some of the cheap pumps and cold weather dont get along... I found out helping him twice on the cold ground one year is how I got my experience. Lets hope you find the easy fix and its not the pump.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 16th, 08, 7:17 PM
okay.. Guys.. she called.. look for a new an improved post...

Anyhow... I depressed the Shrader valve.... expecting a 70psi stream.. and got a dribble.

CARX installed the fuel pump, so if there is problem with its connections.. I hope they will fix it, because I really don't feel like dropping a half tank full of gas to check it... I just don't have the strength by myself to do that.

I have spark... I can hear the pump prime, but it doesn't keep running when I try starting the truck.

I'm flustered... someone please just elaborate on what I should do next. Calll CarX?
Try the relay(The relay is tagged(Fuel Pump Relay) Pins are clean? I read the relay is only for the first two seconds for priming, then it is all about the computer sending an electric signal to the pump.

Now that I think about it, this almost exactly reminds me of the problems with the truck before the pump went out last time.. except different. Last time it was hard starts, then it would run. THen is just stopped starting all together. This time.. I can start It... until the no start condition appears.

I'm walking away right now.. making dinner.... cooling off.

Big D

Alan
Jan 16th, 08, 10:09 PM
I'm 1000 miles from my book buy I walked my fiance through the 1500 page book to get what I needed.

So, if fuel pressure is low, here are some tests to do.

1. Turn off key for 10 seconds with A/C off. Turn key to ON position and the fuel pump should run for 2 seconds. Is fuel pressure present? If yes, turn off key for 10 seconds with A/C off. Turn key on ON position and the fuel pump should run for 2 seconds. Is fuel pressure 60-66 psi? If fuel pressure is lower than 60psi, look for restriction in fuel line or fuel filter.

2. If fuel pump is not running for the 2 seconds after the 10 second rests this is your next test: Connect a 10 amp fused jumper wire from B+ terminal to fuel pump test terminal [I don't have a picture of this so maybe someone can clarify]. Does fuel pump run? If no, perform Fuel Pump Relay Circuit Test.

Let me know if you need a rundown of the Fuel Pump Relay Circuit Test. I'll have to get my fiance to look through the book for that test.

Hopefully this is helping you. If my scanner was working at home, I'd have my fiance scan the pages to PDF and e-mail the stuff to you.

ToocoolZ28
Jan 17th, 08, 12:37 AM
Dave, I have the exact same burb as yours, I can stand behind it with it idleing and hear the fuel pump running, I would think you should too. I would check the pump and relay. Do a basic tune up too, mine quit running a few weeks ago and a new cap and rotor fixed it right up.
Ron

Hi-po SS 454
Jan 17th, 08, 3:27 AM
I have a 96 350 vortec Sub., Elect. fuel pump can be heard just as key is turned and Constantly as engine runs.

I was in a Company 1/2 ton 2000 Chev van idleing BS'ing with supervisor as the engine suddenly quit. Would not restart and NO more elect. fuel pump sound. Pump shot.

Not sure how many ways these pumps react when they are faulty, but I thought they just quit, and no more buzz

ChaosEnvy
Jan 17th, 08, 9:33 AM
Something is going on with the pump. If I let it sit for a while.. I can come put and put the key in and here the pump prime for two seconds. If it starts, I can hear the pump running. When it dies, and I try to restart.. the pump never comes on. If I take the key out and wait a few second and put it back in, the pump doesn't prime. Its very intermintent and gettting worse. I am thinking it is either the pump, or the 6 pin connector the conects to the top of the gas tank.

Big D

quikss
Jan 17th, 08, 9:43 AM
The connector on the top of the tank I was told is a known faulty area. When I replaced my pump I also installed the replacement harness connector right away. Also, if it is your pump, do NOT use anything but a genuine delco pump. Their is no other brand made that holds up.

Jeff

Dean
Jan 17th, 08, 9:49 AM
I think I would probably try replacing the fuel pump relay, they're fairly cheap.

We kept having a fuel pump problem with a 99 and replaced the fuel pump assembly but it still had and intermittent problem.

We FINALLY figured out what we were doing wrong.
Checking for 12 volt power at the pump (which was OK) but we weren't checking to make sure it had a ground :o

Come to find out, there was a plug together junction in the harness that would loose it's connection to the negative wire going to the pump every once in a while.

Intermittent problems are tough because about the time you start to check, everything starts working fine.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 17th, 08, 10:29 AM
Dean, I think it might be that plug on top of the tank..

Initially I had taken the tank down... and when I put it back together I remember that the plug on top of tank wasn't all the way pushed down. The female part goes on the underside of the tank... I believe it was loose.. so it was almost impossible to push in the male part from the top.

I had to truck towed the first time, and had Car-X take care of it. They put in a Delco Pump, the one I had bought from Orielly's didn't put out enough pressure.

I can try the relay.. it is only $14.99.

I am also going to call the Car-X people.. see if they stand by their work.

Big D

ChaosEnvy
Jan 17th, 08, 11:09 AM
Well.. I called CAR-X... they said.. Well that wasn't that long ago.. you should still be covered under warranty. Call Tom's Towing.. they'll bring it down and we'll get it fixed today. So if it is anything that they messed with, Connected on take, defective pump, etc... I don't pay a cent.

Big D

nojoke71
Jan 17th, 08, 9:18 PM
Chaos, I did not hear any mention of the credibility of your fuel filter, going back to basics did you check to make sure you dont have a clog creating a low pressure situation or even over working your pump? If the filter is good, I really think you ought to borrow/buy a high pressure fuel gauge so that you can confirm your fuel pressure is up to par and keep an eye on any pressure drops when it dies.
(If the shop does not find the problem)
Hope things work out.

Dave Birdwell
Jan 17th, 08, 10:38 PM
.

The Filter/Pump/Socks/etc were changed about 6 months ago. When I had the tank down, it was sparkly clean inside.
Big D.

Chaos, I did not hear any mention of the credibility of your fuel filter, .

It was replaced, back on page 2. :thumbsup:

ChaosEnvy
Jan 18th, 08, 9:13 AM
Chaos, I did not hear any mention of the credibility of your fuel filter, going back to basics did you check to make sure you dont have a clog creating a low pressure situation or even over working your pump? If the filter is good, I really think you ought to borrow/buy a high pressure fuel gauge so that you can confirm your fuel pressure is up to par and keep an eye on any pressure drops when it dies.
(If the shop does not find the problem)
Hope things work out.

menace, I don't need a fuel pressure gauge to verify to pressure it low. With this type of TBI system pressure is supposed to have 50-70PSI for this burb. That much pressure coming through the shrader valve makes quite a stream. In my case, it was just a dribble, if that.

The Filter was changed when the pump was changed, roughly 5,000 miles ago.

Big D

ChaosEnvy
Jan 18th, 08, 2:28 PM
Received the call this afternoon, it was the fuel pump... they replaced it... The tow from my place to Car X, and the work, didn't cost me a dime.. all covered under the warranty. I'm a happy camper... Its ready to be picked up...

Big D

furball8994
Jan 18th, 08, 2:37 PM
Received the call this afternoon, it was the fuel pump... they replaced it... The tow from my place to Car X, and the work, didn't cost me a dime.. all covered under the warranty. I'm a happy camper... Its ready to be picked up...

Big D

:hurray:

ChaosEnvy
Jan 18th, 08, 3:08 PM
:hurray:

Thank You..

I have to give big props to my co-worker Ron for letting me borrow his Merc Gran Marquis for the week. He wouldn't even let me replace the gas I used. I used 3/4 of a tank. Also, no offense to Ron, I can't wait to get home and wash the Ford off of me. shiver.. :)

Big D

nojoke71
Jan 18th, 08, 4:32 PM
I missed mention of the filter change, forgive me its a long thread. I wasn't taking shots I assure you. Its easy to get caught up with the problem and overlook things, it happens a lot. As far as a pressure gauge I'm a person that that believes that its part of the diagnostic procedures when in question, that is all. I'm glad its worked out.

ChaosEnvy
Jan 18th, 08, 5:22 PM
I missed mention of the filter change, forgive me its a long thread. I wasn't taking shots I assure you. Its easy to get caught up with the problem and overlook things, it happens a lot. As far as a pressure gauge I'm a person that that believes that its part of the diagnostic procedures when in question, that is all. I'm glad its worked out.

Hey Menace.. not worries. All my threads are long :)

As far as the pressure gauge.. if I had one I would have used it, but to be fair you have to agree there is a big difference between 0 PSI and 70 PSI, yes?

Big D

furball8994
Jan 18th, 08, 5:30 PM
Hey Menace.. not worries. All my threads are long :)



Big D

GOT THAT RIGHT!!! LOL ;)

Did you get the Furd smell off!!!

nojoke71
Jan 18th, 08, 6:14 PM
Hey Menace.. not worries. All my threads are long :)


As far as the pressure gauge.. if I had one I would have used it, but to be fair you have to agree there is a big difference between 0 PSI and 70 PSI, yes?

Big D

Yeah, I followed a couple of them (when I had time!). On that subject I would like to say goodluck with your situation and keep the head up.:)

Understood...no need for a gauge when there is no pressure at all.
The gauge is for when it IS running but cutting out, you would observe initial pressure, any flunctuations and and a total drop when it dies if it is pump related. You have it worked out now. :thumbsup:

ChaosEnvy
Jan 19th, 08, 1:58 PM
GOT THAT RIGHT!!! LOL ;)

Did you get the Furd smell off!!!

Yep.. Furd Smell all gone.....

Morin69ss396
Jan 22nd, 08, 1:27 PM
I'm holding my breath Dave !!! Is it still running OK ? Did they replace the plug this time, or at least look at it ?