Thought it was time to open a philosophical discussion. I have been reading the posts here on TC for quite a while now and must say I am really enjoying my rekindled affair with good old fashioned American Muscle. The parts available today have absolutely raised performance standards. However, there are many of us who enjoy stock or mildly modified powertrain combinations. I am not saying that an all out race car is not favorable, but I read a lot of posts ( and have seen plenty in person) where a guy has taken a base car and added a 400Hp small block or a 500+HP big block, spent a heck of a lot of money in the process and then throws the power train into a ratty car without do consideration to the balance of the car including but not limited to an upgraded brake system. It is always easier to build/buy a high output engine, but it takes planning and persistence to build a true high performance automobile. Years ago, we eminated either the drag race cars or the road race cars. The inability of our GM A-bodies to cross that bridge is the reason these cars were killed off in the first place. If someone wants a 10 second drag car that is fine, I've had mine, that was then, this is now. A lot of the younger guys are coming into the car culture and are taking a serious look at our older iron and showing interest but they are often given an impression that only absurd tire smoking, frame twisting HP will suffice. My take on this goes back to the early days of bracket racing: "Run What You've Brung". Going back 30 years {FYI, I'm only 46 and have been at this for quite some time now}, we had Class Racing [ Stock, Super Stock, Mod.Prod, Gas etc.]. These classes were hard to race with out a big budget. Brackets changed that. To the guy who wants to have a tire smoker, no problem - put on some bias tires, pump them up rock hard and go have a ball. In the meantime, I'll run my conservative package and run my dial-in all day long!

I'd have to say you make a good point.

It has been a hard lesson, to learn that in order to make one of these cars "hook up" when having something over 400 hp, you have to compromise, some of your handling. :(

As to how much is enough...
Well when I bought my car it was enough to scare me a little bit. I had respect for the horsepower, still do, but...

Now I want to respect some more power. :D

You've stated that you've had a 10 second car.
Congrats, must have been a "rush" to drive.

Why do some people bungy jump ?
To have the experience. I like to watch all forms of motor sports, and when they say winston cup cars have 800 hp, don't you just wonder what that feels like ?

I intend to work my way up in horsepower, untill I get tired of the chase and settle into something, that will "run the number", but I have a hard time getting away from my responsibilies, as a husband and father. And cars are my escape or personal fun time, if you will.

At this stage More Power = More Fun.

I expect, it will mellow with maturity. :rolleyes:

we settle on bracketracing because we can't afford to do the "real" racing. that's how it is for me anyway. :(
personally though, i HAVE to be able to drive my car or it isn't worth having to me. i get tons more enjoyment driving the car with my 8 year old son on the weekends than any racing i've ever done. :D
not that i don't like to race, but you just can't replace that kind of quality time with your kids, whether they are boys or girls. ;)

I'm starting to learn about 'balance' in a street/strip car. I was holding up traffic on a winding highway driving my car to the strip last summer because of the weak front springs ect. Drag racing is really fun, but I want my machine to handle the road at least half normal.

How much is enough? My old goal was a 10 sec street car. New goal is how nice can I make this 12.00 sec car to drive.

Good points for sure. I admit I fall into the immature side of the tracks :D

I've always been of the "Too much power is just right" persuasion. My current motor blows the tires off the rims and is downright scary to drive. This is fun and all, but since horsepower is like a drug, more is always better and horsepower breeds the need for more and more and more smile.gif

So, in the spirit of "more is better", my good friend (the TAD racer) and I are now plotting on the next-generation of car. Probably will be a tube-frame car, running somewhere in the neighborhood of 550ci, 10-71 blown, alcohol/injectors, shooting for around 1500hp "streetable" horsepower. For me, it's more of the sound and fury rather than blowing the tires smile.gif For more sound and fury, a little borrowed nitro from the TAD car will always be fun.

Target date: 1 year after the market recovers graemlins/beers.gif

Well im 21 and tons of power is the only thing that will suffice, i spend every dime on my Nova and i live at home {i love america} obviously my....no sway bar, 3 1/5" front rim, 90/10 shocks, no power anything, nastycammed, Stiff chassis'd soon to have caltracs and make it worse street Nova isnt going to be doing any G-testing anytime soon but this is how you get em to hook and it sure as heck isnt going to run within .001 second with my 5 speed but heck if thats what i wanted id have gotten a Honda. Your not going to turn a 4000 lb chevelle into a G-machine without alot of modifications. And your not going to get a 500ft/lb of tq Chevelle to hook without tuning the heck out of the chassis. But thats part of the fun. What fun is 250 hp if you can have 500 of em, and what fun is 500hp if you can get 700hp and all that torque to hook, an so on and so forth. Bracket racing is cool for some..... Who wants to be consistant if you can go faster than what you used to consistantly run??? Isnt that the foundation of drag racing? why should you get disqualified if you beat your previous best????? Whats the sense in that? I enjoy and watch bracket at my local track but id much rather watch Heads Up with "whose got more power and inginuity," but again its like was said, that costs ALOT of money" I guess it comes back to what you want and how deep your wallet is. {i know this post was everywhere and is alot of senseless rambling but i had alot of points to get across} Im NOT trying to start a debate on Bracket vs. Heads up so please dont turn it into that.

I'm in my 40's and it took all these years for me to be able to afford my car and to build it the way I wanted.I raised 5 kids and if I want to drive around in a 600 horsepower big block Chevelle thats my right. :D

You guys would be surprised how well you can make your 3800-4000 pounds Chevelles (or GTO in my case) handle and still pull decent 60 foot times.
During the RSE competition I was running consistant 1.8 60 foot times. Thats not super by pure drag car standards, but when you consider how stiff my suspension is, its not bad. I ran 12.1x all day long. So its very possible to have a great handling car that still runs high 11s, low 12s. My GTO tips the scales at 4200 pounds with me in it, and makes just over 500RWHP.

So to me, about 8lb/HP is a good power to weight ratio.

Andrew

As long as I can slow at the end of a pass and make the corner onto the return road, the brakes and handling are just fine. And I'm "over 50".
My street cars have as much power as I can build, I drive around with slicks or ET-Streets and as far as holding up traffic, that's what passing zones are for. Just go on around!


Randy

i don't think the need for hp has anything to do with maturity or growing up. it's simple to me. how fast can you afford to go? if you can't run with the big dogs, then you stay on the porch with the rest of us who can't afford to do it either. :D
we can tell ourselves whatever we want to justify bracketracing or the lack of a faster car, but in the end it's really just all about money, or lack of, isn't it? if you don't get a rush from the power anymore, then maybe it's time to hang it up. i mean the only thing a true hotrodder matures in, is the fact that he can't spend more than he can pay for, and he's got more responsibilities like wife, kids, mortgage, utilities, SUV's, and pick ups to pay for. oh yeah, and you have to have the computer too. ;)

Some very interesting responses and outlook. By the way, the 10 sec. car was a 11 sec. 396 '67 Chevelle (SS/JA Class Racer ) that was converted to 454 power when switched over to brackets and then ran 10 seconds. I'm, not knocking power, in fact I'm all for it. I just think, in terms of a street machine, it is more of a challenge to have a balance of acceleration and handling. Maybe it is the more mature side showing now, but why dump $7,000.00 in a motor, a grand in a trans, 500.00 in a converter, 1500.00 in a rear, who knows how much in gauges, engine controls, etc. then have poor brakes in an ill state of repair. The car we are doing now has been changed somewhat, more of a street rod approach. Body off frame reconstruction/restoration, lowered but not slammed, Urethane Bushings, rear control arms replaced, haven't decided on the front or the brakes yet. It will only have a 425 HP 408BBC. And yes I could afford literally anything. But we wanted to keep this within a certain perspective. We are still going to keep the factory A/C and install a good sound system. I think these cars can handle decent. If you want to talk about handling, power and vehicle weight, go drive a late model Z28/SS car. Or better yet, get behind the wheel of one of the big Mercedes Sedans and find out what handling is. In the end what it comes down to (for me at least), is the Chevelle is the type of car that I ran re-engineer, modify and relate to. Yes it is the type of vehicle I drove when I was 16, fast forward 30 years and I like most of you am still playing with a Chevelle. [ By the way, I'm still trying to convince my wife to go for a back seat test drive like the old days!]

Can you get too much power? When you got Too much power you just have a too week chassi or too old tires. I havnt had a problem with power yet dough.

My goal this year was a 10 sec timeslip. I got a 9.32 slip. And aiming for 8:s next year. The engine is my same engine i used in my stock Chevelle 69 and my acadian 64.

Build it to a level you are satisfied and then change chassi after a year or too... Easy and cheap.

By all means, the brakes and suspension, need to be up snuff.

A car that handles real well, is nice but is kinda more temptation to push the limits in another way.

Part of the reason, I haven't bought a GT Mustang or a Z-28 is that I know I'd be doing 100 mph everday.

Knowing my car has, "lower" limits keeps me more responsible. Yet, in an emergency situation, a better handling car, might be able to avoid, an accident. :confused:

I really do try to leave more room for error, when driving the Chevelle, than a more current ride.

Andrew has found a really nice balence, with his GTO, but that kind of refinement doesn't come overnight, probably took years to get everything sorted.

Well, I feel that this post is in part directed toward me and that is fine. I have been asking alot of questions lately how to get "500+HP" out of my 454 big block and will continue to do so until I feel that I have the engine that I really want. I will also be posting alot of questions in other forums that relate to suspension and tires and brakes and gearing, etc...so that I have a complete "package", not a rust bucket with a blower. I am 43 years old and have been raising my 11 year old daughter for 10 years by myself and now I am building my street/strip chevelle. I might decide tomorrow to go for 700+HP (because I can) and because I work hard every day, every week all year long just like most everyone reading this. If I put my money into a BIG BAD POWERFUL 1000+HP BIG BLOCK, I say good for me !!! :D I'm not going to get philisophical, I just want to have fun and thank you to all the guys who have given their opinions and advice regarding my 500+HP BIG BLOCK combo, it's coming along great !! graemlins/waving.gif

(I'm only 43, but maybe when I'm 46 years old I will feel the need to slow down too......NOT !!) ;)

I will say if you want to go fast do it the first time......Your gonna spend the money anyway .....If you do it three or four times then your just wasting time and money like I have done time and time again......I'm sure I'm not alone on that one....As far as street driving and having a 10 second car ...I drive my car everyday I can as long as it's not raining or snowing.....I would drive my car anywhere...If I had to do it all over again I would have gone with a huge cube motor and back halfed it from day one......Instead of playing catch up for the last 7 years......I also love cruising with my 7 year old boy and my 4 year old girl ...They both love the car and yes I have fun at the track ,But I too have more fun just cruising..... :eek: :eek:

Gentlemen, please don't take anything that I have brought up as personal, I have not directed anything towards anyone. I just wanted to find out what perception different people have to performance (afterall, the Section is called "Performance"). We each have different ideologies as to what makes a sweet ride, that's what is so enticing about playing with older muscle cars like the Chevelle. We basically have a blank sheet of canvas to work with and the direction that we choose to take is our's to decide. The overall simplicity of the vehicle as well as the availablity of parts allows it to be accessible to any of us. I was just trying to find some commonality in perceived performance, not only HP and 1/4 mile times but also general driveability.
When it comes right down to it, a 496 stroker in "mild" tune may very well be more civil than a hot 427 but still be much quicker and a better driver. Like I said, I am an ex-drag racer/ lifelong motorhead who has raised a family and is enjoying my renewed affair with the muscle car.
Here in Pennsylvania, Winter is fast approaching, have a lot of work to do on the Chevelle; can't wait till the Spring; definitely feel inspired to get into the garage and get wrenching everytime I visit TC. (Which incidentally is very addicting.) That's all this is about!

Hi Scott graemlins/waving.gif Like I said before, you have one of the finest Chevelles I have ever seen and I can only hope that mine turns out as nice, whether it ends up with 500 or 2500 horse power graemlins/thumbsup.gif I agree with your point about building what you really want the first time and save money in the long run. By the way, how much horsepower are you producing ???
Let's hear it for horsepower !!! graemlins/hurray.gif

Originally posted by GRN69CHV:
Gentlemen, please don't take anything that I have brought up as personal, I have not directed anything towards anyone. I just wanted to find out what perception different people have to performance (afterall, the Section is called "Performance"). We each have different ideologies as to what makes a sweet ride, that's what is so enticing about playing with older muscle cars like the Chevelle. We basically have a blank sheet of canvas to work with and the direction that we choose to take is our's to decide. The overall simplicity of the vehicle as well as the availablity of parts allows it to be accessible to any of us. I was just trying to find some commonality in perceived performance, not only HP and 1/4 mile times but also general driveability.
When it comes right down to it, a 496 stroker in "mild" tune may very well be more civil than a hot 427 but still be much quicker and a better driver. Like I said, I am an ex-drag racer/ lifelong motorhead who has raised a family and is enjoying my renewed affair with the muscle car.
Here in Pennsylvania, Winter is fast approaching, have a lot of work to do on the Chevelle; can't wait till the Spring; definitely feel inspired to get into the garage and get wrenching everytime I visit TC. (Which incidentally is very addicting.) That's all this is about! I agree 100% and thanks for bringing up the topic.
No offense intended here either. BTW, I saw a 68 Z-28 at the track 2 weeks ago that was a mint restoration beautiful cranberry red that had no outward appearance of "race", but when he left the line it was a sight to behold and I must say that I really was envious that this guy had a mint Z-28 original in appearance but was ready to take on any car at the same time. That was impressive graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Great topic... we addressed this on the local board that I moderate that is home to a number of 10-12 second imports and domestic/muscle cars of all levels. I think the horsepower craze is largely from the media... mags, tv, the internet especially. Everywhere you look there are 9 and 10 second cars... supras,mitsubishi's, chevelles, camaros, mustangs... They make it look so easy! If I had a dollar for everytime someone I meet down at the loacal cruise spots was talking up how they are gonna run 10's and had no realistic idea of what it seriously takes to run 10's, I would be in the 6's :D

I have ran 10's in a car that wasn't very streetable about 7 years ago and it was TOUGH! Definetly took some knowledge, work, and money. Now with turbos and efi it is a whole new game. Smaller cube motors can get huge power, and the scary thing is things like cam selection, head porting, and some of the old arts of building power are less crucial. There are guys running a stock 5.0 engine with forged pistons, stock heads, stock cam, 2 junkyard t3's, and a tweecer to tune the ecm and running low 11's for about 2000 bucks. That is some budget power.

Of course now I'm trying to get 9's on a stock style suspension, with a heavier car, and still be able to take it to the local cruise night. Best thing is it is on a budget (8 grand thus far invested and plan to do it for 10 total... including the purchase price of my chevelle). So what can I say... it is a disease. You get it... it runs it course as it did for me... then it goes into remission and you own some other cars... and then wham it is back full blown again. graemlins/clonk.gif

You bring up a great point CaptCrunch. When I started out on my quest for a 12-sec big HP Chevelle, I was dreaming of the day when I could pull up to a light next to a rice burner with what I call a "fart" muffler and show him what real power is, but as you point out, that rice burner just might be able to blow my doors and I think that is pretty awesome in itself. However, I would much rather be seen at a light or the local drive-in in a big HP Chevelle muscle car with a choppy idle and tuned exhaust than a Honda Civic that sounds like my lawnmower....I own a Honda Accord with a V6 which I drive 25 miles each way to work and back in traffic here in Houston and I must admit that the car has some serious get up and go as it came from the factory. :eek: It really surprised me.

Having enough means never having to prove yourself on a cruise - never having the cops mistake you for doing anything but cruising - never having an idiot pester you while at a light - never doing anything but enjoying the sound and time warp a stout motor puts under your pedal.

Makes merging easier to....

MAT

I guess its a 'to each his own' kind of thing. I've only been steady here[TC] for a month or so but I own a little of everything.

In the old days I had a L-88 powered GTO that ran 10:70's... Now that motor is in My 67 Chevelle sans converter and gears. runs 12:20..still too much of a bear to street drive daily because of the 13:1...

My 1969 L-78 is the fastest bone stock car I've ever owned...now how hard am I gonna pound an numbers matching, original paint L-78?

My newest project, the reason I've been hanging around here, seems to be what you may dislike, hopefully too much horsepower to ever put to the ground in a stock body car, a 496er in a 69 GTO ragtop, [parts came today!] but boy, I imagine this car is going to be a BLAST to drive and I can get gas at every gas station and I don't give a rats fanny about 60 foot times!I will however, always have a spare set of 275-60-15 BF Goodrich's on hand....plus now I can put gears and a converter in the '67 and run low 11's...

Originally posted by L-78 GUY:
I don't give a rats fanny about 60 foot times!....plus now I can put gears and a converter in the '67 and run low 11's... You will soon find out just how important 60' times are in order to achieve low 11's. :D

L-78 Guy,

I had to go back and read your post twice to figure it out. I take it you have 3 cars: '69 GTO Conv going together w/496, ?? w/ L-78 and a '67 with a L-88. Quite a collection.

Tried to go back and edit the last post but power went out, so have to do a new response.

L-78 guy, figured out after, the '69 is a Chevelle sorry for the ??.

The '69 GTO Vert should be a real tire smoker with a 496 in it. The stock Pontiac 400 would burn the tires at will back in the day and that was with the stock 3.08 gears. I would be intersted in how you are going to handle that much power in a stock convertible chassis. If it hooks up, the frame will twist real bad. If not it will just burn the tires to smoke. I would assume a combo of a 496 in a stock chassis would run with a tighter converter (2200 RPM) and a 3.08 gear. Anymore than this will be like driving on a wet road until you get well under way. By the way 3.08 gear at 5500 RPM with 28" tall tire yields 149 MPH top speed. Heck of a ride in a convertible! You might want to consider a V-rated tire. I think BFG T/A's are only good to about 115.

The only problem on the street is if you truly have a legit 11 sec/10 sec car there is no way you can sanely drive it with street tires. Even slicks will be hard to hook up. I agree with MAT, when people hear my cam, they just look over and smile, no need to do anything else.

I'm past my days of messing around on the street but any car I have will be a car I can drive for sure. I'm glad I have a track close that I can drive to with my ET streets on. I don't intend on having a trailer, ever.

I'm starting to piece together a BB so hopefully I can run high 10's with a very streetable car.

If you've never driven a fast car, 14's seem quick, once you've been corrupted by a fast car, more is never enough.

If you've never driven a fast car, 14's seem quick, once you've been corrupted by a fast car, more is never enough. Ain't that the truth! I was quite happy with my ~ 14 sec mild little Nova till I took a ride in a 10 second car.

1971 BB Nova
10.62@133 N/A

10.62@133 Big Block Nova

ssssswwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet !!! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

What's your combo ?? ;)

Originally posted by Doug F.:
The only problem on the street is if you truly have a legit 11 sec/10 sec car there is no way you can sanely drive it with street tires.Well driving on the street and racing on the street are two totally different deals. I don't street race since I moved back to MN. I guess you could say maybe I have grown out of the "I am invincible" younger years LOL.

But there are a few 8-10 second rides out on our local streets if you know where to go. Most of them are a pretty scary ride like you said when they race.

AS Randy said
As long as I can slow at the end of a pass and make the corner onto the return road, the brakes and handling are just fine. And I'm "over 50".
My street cars have as much power as I can build, I drive around with slicks or ET-Streets and as far as holding up traffic, that's what passing zones are for. Just go on around!


I like graemlins/thumbsup.gif
John

10.62@133 Big Block Nova

ssssswwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet !!!

What's your combo ??
427 tall deck, 4.25 stroke x4.350 bore, 13.5:1 SRP, Lunati Pro-Mod rods, Pro-Filer 320cc heads, Steve Schmidt ported Eddy Victor intake, 1050 dominator, 2.25x4 Lemons headers, Big .800+ LSM roller, TH400/4500 stall, 4:10 gears, 30x13.5 ET Streets.

Transmission was slipping in 2nd on that pass, it burnt the clutchs real bad last time out so now I'm getting that fixed. Come spring time I've got a Double Cross plate and a fresh tranny ready to go.

I started this post with the hopes of getting guys to open up on what they are running and what are real expectations. As I had mentioned before. I am putting together a '69 SS car [ 408BBC (415 -425 HP )400Auto, 3000 Stall, 3.73's , the usual]. I was really tempted to go 454 or 496 right away, but not having owned anything over 350 HP in quite a few years I wasn't comfortable with running big power without a good chassis. The last time I ran anything comparable was in the early 80's and that was a trailer to the track drag car. I am hoping to drive to the track on real street radials with the A/C running, pop off the trims rings, turn off the A/C and run 12.90's. It's definitely not as fast as I could go with more engine and suspension, but in terms of performance I think something like this would qualify as a good performance benchmark for a strong but not overly potent combination. I can name more than a few cars that show up on cruise nights that have been reconverted to street trim (basically put the lights back in working condition) that were previous class racers (Gas, Super Stock, M/P). These are all "Street Legal" cars but none ever have any creature comforts, like heat or A/C, good sound system. This is what makes this scenario so interesting.

For me the plan has been for several years to build a car that would last at least as long as the Generals first attempt. 20+ years with no rust or major body concerns, and dependable. Nothing worst than driving a car, hear something and wonder if you are going to make it home. Make it simple as possible for any common engine and drivetrain change if desired (I still enjoy turning wrenches). Some of the newer stuff being produced are really cool. But $30K + can build a heck of a Chevelle. So my goal is to have something that is a tad bit better than stock, (replace the inexpensive assembly line pieces) including paint. Hopefully handles and brakes better than most of todays production cars. With the ability to swap out my 402 BBC and replace it with any combination of my choice if finances permitts. Then play with tune up and suspension. But it is hard sometimes to stay on track when friends and family may have higher expectations then yourself. Don't like to disappoint anyone. So far so good. graemlins/hurray.gif Hopefully I will be turning the key on my BBC sometime next spring/summer. It has been close to 20 yrs since I have owned a BBC car. The best advice I can give any car nut is PATIENCE! That is what I needed the most when I was younger. Garage wouldn't hurt either.

Bryan,
You are heading in the same direction as I am. My last BBC was a '71 454/365 Auto Vette I owned in '91. Ran ok, but was geared really high (3.08) and tight converter. For a 454 car it was a big disappointment. Granted, I bought the car with 75k on the clock and the motor may have needed freshioning up, but when my wife got a new '95 Z28 with the LT1, 4 spd auto, 3.73 gears it reaaly hit home just how poor the performance was in the Vette. Sold shortly after and haven't had a BBC since. Learned a lot from driving the Camaro that a car could handle well and run strong at the same time.

I'll also add that for the 402 BBC I have a .708 Mech. Street Roller that I brought a few years back thinking I was going at the minimum with a 454 BBC. But budget dictated the smaller BBC. I have all the valve train components for the cam, and still was undecided on using it. But finally have said what the heck lets see what this setup will do for the smaller BBC. Going to be purchasing some brand of aluminum heads (thinking Brodix) soon for the block, and will definently ask for advice from the forum. But am also questioning the streetable characteristics of this combination. But as an alternative I have a 383 SBC that will be rebuilt pretty mild for backup, and cruising if the BBC turns out to be a little too much for the "street"/strip.

Kjett, I don't worry about 60 ft times in my STREET car...the low 11. sec 67 L-88 will be fine...been there done that...you know nothing tricky,13:1 L-88's w/4:88 and 3000 stall tend to run low 11's, won't be the first there!

On the 496 69 GTO rag...God forbid it ever hooks! That's the one I don't care about 60 ft times, One; need a roll bar in a Rag top faster than 14 ohs at Lebabon Valley and B. it would break all kinds a stuff, left and fro...
And Grn69chev thanks for the compliment but I gots way more then just these tucked away..Some would say these are the best three though..but some wouldn't...

Bryan, since you already have the big roller and all related valvetrain parts, you might want to consider sending it to Bullet or Cam Motion or even Comp and have it reground into something that'll work better with your smaller inch street/strip combo. Then you won't be disappointed and have exactly what you want. It's usually around $160.00 and they can re-grind nearly any profile you want onto your billet.

I've done this MANY times.

Randy

How much is too much? There is no such thing-if there were we wouldn't spend so much time and money trying to refine what already exsists. Enough for me is F1 supercar handling and brakes, Top Fuel acceleration, and Grand National roadster show appearence. Oh I'd like 30MPG also---my little fantasy(don't tell the wife)

I love my 4000# sled that runs low 13's/high 12's with 2.73 gears in street trim smile.gif
And its not a race car,its my fun car and I just happen to know what it ET's at! My goal was to build a car that ran what a 1970 LS6 car did (not too difficult,but not exactley easy with 2.73 gears) And IMHO,its all in the "hook"...I guess for some people,its just easier to build a car with too much gear,too much motor,and hope for the best..I've seen cars w/automatics run low 12/mid 12's with 2.0 or worse 60 fts. and they're still after more power :rolleyes:
I would rather have a mild motor with a well thought out overall combo that hooks nice (in street trim) and runs a respectable ET at the track than have some overgeared,overbuilt combo that might run the same ET or better,but can't hook up at all (and the owner is filled with all kind of excuses)The only time overgeared and over cammed combos are fun is with a stick ;)
No offense to anyone,its all about having fun-have it your way graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I too love my 10 second ride that actually handles quite well on the street since I use stock springs and stiff gas shocks meant for the street, a 3.42 gear and I can run on 89 octane doesn't hurt either in the street driving category. 3200 RPM at 65. Yes I have a solid roller, but even though I probably do not need to, I change valve springs and lifters every 2 years...$450 before re-selling to get back $150 of it.

I expect to get 10.60's out of it by the end of next year and it will still be nice on the street.

This topic is on a roll and getting a lot of good responses. Talking projected ET's, what kind of ET's (1/4 mile) have you guys experienced in cars that you could honestly say have great street manners [ ie. good handling, driveability, etc.].
I know there are a lot of factors that go into a ET, but for example, my targeted 12.90 ET with the '69 / 408BBC combo will hopefully be made with a suspension that won't really allow for too much weight transfer. Maybe someone has experience with a package they have or have seen for a car that can dip down in the low 12's or maybe even high 11's and still be considered a good handling street car. One of the magazines (Car Craft maybe) had a Street Shootout going on, saw one article and never really followed up on it.

DDENNIS,
I think I have seen your dream car - Twin Turbo Big Block (All Aluminum), Tube Chassis, All Billet COmponents. [ Bill Gates just ordered one]
{He had to take out a loan to pay for it}.

Maybe someone has experience with a package they have or have seen for a car that can dip down in the low 12's or maybe even high 11's and still be considered a good handling street car. Try searching over here: Turbobuick.com (http://www.turbobuick.com)
Streetable 11 second (and faster) Grand Nationals & Ts with all the toys still intact are not uncommon. I know they are a couple of generations newer than your car, but maybe you can find some interesting reading anyway.

Good Luck.

One assumption that most people make when they see a hot rod is that is is designed to run only a quarter mile. When I drive our 64 Nova road race car around I always get asked "What does it run in the quarter?"

Very good topic!!

All might think about going from Big Brother, (i.e., about a '68 Chevelle), to Little Brother, (i.e., '68 Camaro), to Baby Brother, (i.e., '68 Nova) for quest in speed and times b/c of for no other reason then weight..

It's a whole lot easier when the weight is lower, imho..

But again, it wouldn't be in a Chevelle or my '67 Camaro..

pdq67

I see there are others like me out there (a lot in fact) that want a streetable 12-11 sec car. That is my ultimate goal and hopefully I will get this thing on the road by next year (2004). I think it will be a blast cruising around my area on a weekend and then running out to the track and letting her rip !! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Like Mr4speed said , it's a "fun car" :D

It's great to hear what others are working on and/or planning to do with thier cars. Thanks for posting this GRN69CHV. graemlins/waving.gif

Originally posted by Texas70:
I see there are others like me out there that want a streetable 12-11 sec car. Yup, that was my goal.
12's weren't too hard, 11's my man, are a different story.

Yeah, this is a good thread, one of the best, if not the best "street/strip" thread I've read.

To each his own is always the rule. Seems like many share my view that "street/strip" is something you can drive on the highway for 2-300+ miles. Race. Drive home.

From a practical point of view, unless you're using power enhancers, it seesm like 11-12 seconds is a nice "sweet spot".

Originally posted by 427L88:

From a practical point of view, unless you're using power enhancers, it seesm like 11-12 seconds is a nice "sweet spot". I beg to differ.. :D

Tom,

I have a buddy that has a '69 with a warmed over (basically a lot bigger cam)502/502 crate that is running in the 10's. But his car has trick front springs, 4500 Converter with trans brake, full cage, race buckets. Yes it is street legal but the only creature comfort is a radio. A 540CI powerhouse has to be unreal to control on the launch.

Well, I don't have a radio... :( :( I don't actually miss it in the car that much, I have a killer system in my 4-runner though.

Actually it leaves real smooth, some who have watched me in person say it looks like your just getting onto the freeway...I have some videos floating around some of my posts. I have stock malibu 6 cylinder springs and KYB gas shocks in front, my converter flashes at 4200 +/- but is real nice on the street, granted not like a stock or 2400, but again real nice.

I have an SS convertible to restore so I want to spend the majority of my time with that over the next few years, I don't want to spend my time or money constantly fixing broken parts with a maxed out combo in a heavy vehicle, so that's why the mild 540 combo that runs consistent 10.80's is right for me now.

Yeah I am giving up ET with some of my combo's intentionally selected components, but I am doing with this car exactly what I want to do right now. I need something to mess with a little bit each year, something to work on to get faster for less. I hope to pick up .1 each year for the next 3 years with minimal $$ invested..call it my own challenge if you will. There are Many items of fine tune in my combo that have not been tapped yet because I don't like to nor have time to do it all right away..it is fun, more rewarding and great therapy from the stresses of life for me to slowly progress in performance. Sure I could tap my home equity account for a $16k mountain motor $10k in suspension and drivetrain to get it to the ground, but that's not so rewarding in the long run for me. Note: There is an analogy in there that would help this point but it may offend some readers so I will let it slide.. ;)

I could easily drive mine 200 to 300 miles. It is just the possibility of breaking at the track that keeps me from doing it. I just don't want to chance having to get stuck somewhere overnight, sleeping in it, etc. etc. Flatbed costs can get expensive when you are far from home.

Gene, It was great seeing you make it to LVD this past fall to row the gears after driving so far!! But come to think about it...When we raced I didn't actually See You Though :D - sorry couldn't resist..too easy to let go by...LOL

I have been towed home twice from the track in 5 years (knocking wood sound) for a total cost of $140 and 2 favors.

Sorry for the rambling...

Tom,

Rambling is good. I think that is why this thread took off. To some different degree, each of us have the same interests. These threads and posts are a way to get the details and share info without becoming subject to the "Advertising in the Articles" that the magazines have to use when they do an article.

But just for info sake, what is your 540" combo?

As long as I have enough power to keep ahead of my buddies 55 wagon :D (first I have to get ahead)I think what I need is one of those mild 540's that Mr. Baird is driving


Jerry

A all around performer is great if you have the cash to build it, but most don't, espeacially the younger guys like me. I would love a T56 overdrive and brembo brakes, who wouldn't? But I can only afford one thing at a time, and since my heart, my life, my soul is addicted to accelerating as fast as is humanly possable with a internal combustion engine, thats where my money goes. Besides, why do I need super duper brakes on the street because I have a big motor? I shoudn't be using that big motors power enough to need the huge brakes on the street, and the 1/4 drags have a long slow down portion :D

Originally posted by GRN69CHV:
Tom,

just for info sake, what is your 540" combo? 2003 540 CI Combo, 1971 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Merlin II Block 4.5" bore
10.2:1 SRP pistons 10 cc dome
Eagle 6.385 H-beams with ARP L-19 260K bolts
4.25" Callies Dragonslayer Crank - Internal Balance
ATI balancer
Moroso Oil pan and blueprint oil pump
Comp Cams Solid Roller XR292R 254/260 & .660/.666 lift with a 110 lobe separation installed on a 107.5 intake centerline. lashed at .014”
Crane Gold 1.7 Roller Rockers
Crane vertical bar solid roller lifters
Canfield 310 CC Runner 119 cc chamber Rect Port heads - stock out of the box.
Rectangular Port Edelbrock Victor Jr. Intake - box stock as well.
Holley 4781 850 DP stock out of the box with choke horn still on. 6.5 PV in front, Plug in back
Stock Fuel tank with welded in sump
Carter 172 gph mechanical fuel pump fed by -10 braided line.
2" Hooker Competition Headers – no coatings
Dynomax Super Turbos
3" Torque Tech exhaust to the bumper with GM SS tips
Transmission Specialties 9" converter with Mechanical Diode. Flashes between 4200 and 4400.
Hurst ¼ stick and Moroso Line loc
Hughes TH-400 with secondary filter system, Alum. cooler, Dennys Nitrous Driveshaft with 350 Joints.
GM 12 bolt with welded tubes, TA cover, Powertrax Performance Locker, Mark Williams axles, C-clip eliminators and 3.42 Richmond street/strip gears.
Hoosier QT Pro 28x13.5 at 20 psi on 15x10 Weld Prostars with 5.5 BS
205/70/15 Cooper street radials on 15x6 Prostars up front 3.5 BS.
Dick Miller no-Hops on lower mounting point, tubular lowers and adjustable uppers. Moog stock coil springs front (6 cylinder) with KYB Gas. Rear - Moog Cargo Coils with Qa-1 12-Way shocks. Pinion Angle - 4.5 deg. Rear air bags – 0 psi LT, 25 psi Rt.
70 Chevelle manual steering box.
Dual 12" Flexlite Fan system with Aluminum Radiator, no thermostat - use a restrictor
Stock GM Cast Iron Water Pump
Stock GM HEI distributor triggering a MSD 6AL.
Timing – 16 initial, 38 total all in by 2000
Powermaster 100 amp 1-wire alternator.
Exhaust Gas Temperature Probes - cylinders 1 and 8

As of 10/2003 – runs consistent 10.80’s at 124.
Best ET 10.78 @ 125.1 with 1.53 60 ft’s
Shift at 5600, cross stripe at just under 6000.
Combination is still being tuned.
I run on pump gas 93


I have had this car for 5 years and it has been a progression to this stage over 5 years.

Now that I listed my combo, I need something from you Mr GRN69CHV - What is your name?

Tom, yeah, you son-of-a-gun, I thought about you as I wrote that!

OK, OK, its a nice sweet spot for me!


( HUMBLED BY THE MASTER STREET/STRIP GUY AGAIN!)

Tom Baird,

Thanks for the info, that is a very thorough response. Great combination. At this point I will be running a somewhat more simpler combination. As I said, I want to drive to the track with the A/C running and then run 12.90's. Anything better would be icing on the cake.

Joe Jacono