I have pretty mcuh settled on this conbo for my Vette project. The goal is 1000 hp naturally aspirated and then a bunch more with nitrous. Looking for educated, or uneducated opinions ;)

BBC
555 or 572. Still trying to figure out if I can make the 4.375 stroke work in a 9.8 deck. I am a little restricted because of the ring pack neccasary with the nitrous pistons. None the less it will be a 4.560 bore and either a 4.25 or 4.375 stroke.

CNC AFR 357's with a little extra work done to them. Comp stainless rocker arms
solid roller, 289 and 296 at .050 .750 lift. on a 114 LSA (nitrous)
Hogan's fabbed tunnel ram with 2 Pro-systems 1050 nitrous Dominators
13.5 to 1 compression
Aluminum rods
Wet sump

I am going to have Jeff Prock at Applied Nitrous Technology plumb two Pro race Foggers in the Hogan's. I plan on spraying a total of 550-600 hp worth of nitrous.

This motor is about 1/3 of the way done. It will be about a year before it is done. When I finish and get it on the dyno I will post the results.

Is there any particular reason you are wanting to use 24 degree heads? There's a lot more power to be found in the spread port stuff out there, like the 12 degree Raptors..

Primarily cost. There is also the fact this will be a 2500 lb.ish backhalf car. I think 1500 or so hp will be plenty enough for me. The real exotic heads are a lot more finicky when you spray them with heavy loads of nitrous. I know there woud be another 100 or so hp with some better heads, then again with the huge ports of those heads the limited street use this car will see would be even worse.

69 Ratt,

JE say's they can make a standard deck height piston for this combination around a 6.45" long rod!

And note, this is with a zero deck height motor at the true 9.8 dimension to sqeeze it in there!! No decked block and no down in the hole sorta deal!!

I have looked into this extensively b/c if I don't get the grunt I want to feel in the seat of my pants with my mild, about 550hp, 496"er, I'm either going to 256 Procharge it OR build a 588", (stealth, 396), motor, (4.625"b x 4.375" s), just to do it..

He, He!! But I might get old AND die first.......

pdq67

I'm currently building a 632 with 13.1, 286/298 .748 112 with brodix M2 BB2X heads which flow a ton more then the AFR's do under .700 lift with the commander 950 MPFI with a 2000CFM throttle body and I only plan on around 850HP.

Our cams are pretty close, the max flow of the heads are close, compression is close and I have more cubic inches so I'm not sure where the other 150HP would come from unless I have under rated what mine is going to produce.

Lee

The dual carbs and tunnel ram will make more power than the FI will, how much, I do not know. If I were to make an honest guess I would think your 632 will make as much power and more tq than my 572 (NA). It will be an interesting comparrison. Do you plan on racing the car ?

I disagree on the carb statement...Been there done that, I have two cars running fuel injection and have first hand experience. Are you basing your information on experience or hear say?

This motor is for my wife, we picked up a tube chassis corvette, weighs 2200 pounds.

Lee

A friend runs a 4.25 stroke with .400 long rods in a std block, 565 in. The pistons are a little on the short side but they last a season (most of the time). The upper end is big chief heads and a single injector. It was dynoed at 1028 HP.If it is a race only thing then his set up will work but at 14to1 and an .820 lift cam anything else is out of the question. He is thinking about going to 2 injectors because a lot of guys are running juice now to get more MPH. Why anyone would need more MPH in a SC. car that runs 186 I don't know but things are different from when I was racing one.

70 Chevelle. I guess will will have to disagree on the carbs v. FI. Take a look at Pro-mod, 95% of those guys run carbs (nitrous cars), even though they don't have to. They could run the FI on a tunnel ram and yet still chose carbs.

I am basing the HP guess (in part) on Rehermorrison's Super Series. Their 555 makes just a little over 910 hp (a little more cam and compression) I am wondering if the extra inches, tunnel ram, and aluminum rods will take the 572 to 1000 hp.

That Vette soounds really cool. I happen to think back half Vettes are pretty neat. What year is it?

I think if you're after 1000hp out of it on a 24 degree head you've got your work cut out for you. Seems pretty optimistic, will need a lot of work in the heads, piston dome fitting, etc. to get there even with the tunnel ram - just my guess though I'm no expert. I think Reher Morrison puts a lot of work in the heads, chamber and piston to get to that 900 level.

I think 1000 hp might be a bit tough to make, of course which dyno you use could be worth around 50 horsepower.

If i recall correctly, 66 283's 632 with Big Dukes made under 1000 hp N/A, but mind you thats with "low" compression, and a single carb.

The Hogans dual carb manifold will beat any generic tunnel ram. I believe the EFI could make simular power compared to the carbs, but with a much broader torque curve, and more peak torque.

Then there was that 565 with Pro Filer heads and a Hogans modified single carb intake, with "low compression" (though it wasn't said how much), and it made 1050 horsepower on pump gas.

70_Chevelle, I think your 632 will make more than 850 horsepower for sure, but its good to underestimate than overestimate smile.gif

Good luck on both of your builds.

PS: Wolfplace needs to flowbench those Brodix M2 BB-2 X heads to see if that 294 cfm @.300 is legit. That number is VERY impressive.

Originally posted by 70_chevelle:
I'm currently building a 632 with 13.1, 286/298 .748 112 with brodix M2 BB2X heads which flow a ton more then the AFR's do under .700 lift with the commander 950 MPFI with a 2000CFM throttle body and I only plan on around 850HP.

Our cams are pretty close, the max flow of the heads are close, compression is close and I have more cubic inches so I'm not sure where the other 150HP would come from unless I have under rated what mine is going to produce.

Lee Lee,
Just curious but where did you get the info that the M2's will outflow the AFR 357's??

They are both outstanding heads but if you put them both on the same bench & think you are going to find a slightly different outcome ;)

The advertised numbers or both heads are very representative of what they are & as far as I know, at this time there is not a conventional head that is as efficient as the AFR & I sell both so I have no reason to hawk one over the other.

Not knocking either head as in real life I doubt you would see much difference in power given the same setups as the two heads are very comparable but the AFR at this time is a pretty hard head to beat.

The M2 will go over 290 @ .400 & about 400 @ .700

The AFR will go 300+ at .400 & over 400 @ .700

Like I said they are both excellent but,,,, in an honest test the M2 is not going to "flow a ton more under .700" ;)


=========EDIT==========
Just noticed the above post.
No way is either head going to flow 290 at .300 unless you are using about 40 inches of depression :D

I agree the stars will have to align perfectly (or a friendly dyno) for this motor to make 1000 hp. My personal guess is 950 to 975.

I know Rehermorrison does some work to thiers to get the power out of it they do. I have some pretty good guys helping me and we are going to give it our best shot.

As far as the carb v. FI debate, below is a pretty good article by Pro-sytems. I know they make carbs but none the less it is very imformative

http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html

Hey Wolfplace, what is your estimate on this?

John, thanks for the Pro-Systems link, that was an interesting read.

I believe that your n/a engine will be closer in power to the Reher-Morrison Super Series. I just think those heads will hold you back - even with a few extra cubes and a Hogans tunnel ram. Can you get some Big Chief heads and recycle the AFR's? On second thought it will be cheaper for you to spray 600hp instead of 500hp. The aluminum rods will be good for the nitrous hit, not likely to make any extra power otherwise.

I wish it was a year later already - I'm looking forward to being there when it hits the track. I think you are going to have to do a lot of BBQ's to pay for it.

Thomas

Tom: Sunday was a good time, leave it up to a Mopar to wet down BOTH sides of the track. I did not make squat on the BBQ, ended up loosing a few bucks. No big deal I did not do it to make money. Next time I will tone it down to sausages and hamburgers, buns, etc.

I would like to do the 18* stuff, but as of now I can not justify the extra cost for headers, shaft rockers, etc. "If" and when I get this thing done and need to go faster, maybe I will step up to a 18* 632. I think the power to weight ratio of this thing should put it in the 7's if I can get the chassis tuned correctly. I wil have lots to do to figure all that out.

The heads I actually intend to use are the ones I told you about that have not been released yet. They are close enough to the AFR's but made 17 more HP than the AFR's on a race 565.

I think the tunnel ram should gain around 50 hp over a good single plane.

A member over at CorvetteForum, 632C2, is making 1100+ at the flywheel with a carb on a single plane manifold. You'll have to check his engine specs. I believe he's running the Big Chiefs.

wolfplace - this is right off Brodix's web site:

M2 BB-2 XTRA
2.300 INTAKE 183 235 294 340 376 395 408
1.880 EXHAUST 134 177 216 247 268 280 288

http://www.brodix.com/2004_Catalog/35-36.pdf

and on AFR's web site:

http://www.1970chevelle.net/afr.jpg

Lee

Most of the Pro Street Cars like Pat Musi run EFI. He would never run a carb on his car. I've read pro-systems article, and don't have an issue on it regarding a prostock style engine.

I just got done doing some carb testing with 8 wide band air/fuel ratio sensors on a few engines and it is scary to say the least the distribution cylinder to cylinder.

Reading A/F in the collector is dangerous when tuning to the edge.

I've back to backed EFI and a carb on 900-1000 HP engines on the dyno and was always able to match or better a dominator.

We have a basic 14:1 540 Pat Musi built engine we do testing with ported Canfield 310 heads and it makes an honest 930 HP with a cam that isn't too crazy (reasonable lift and 285 or so @.050). That is with EFI or a dominator.

Warren Johnson said he would rather run EFI than a carb.

John, it just wouldn't be the same at the track without a Ratt BBQ! That was a tasty assortment that you put together, the salmon was first rate, dogs above average. Well worth the buy-in.

Actually, it was the 11 degree Big Chief II heads that I was refering to. Check out www.QMPracing.com (http://www.QMPracing.com) for a rocking n/a 565 1,037 hp 806 tq single Dominator non Hogan's setup.

Edit: Oops, looks like QMP's website has expired! Okay, instead look over pages 52-55 in the October 2004 Chevy Rumble.

900++ n/a hp plus 600hp N2O is easily enough to get a car of that weight into the 7's. I'll be glad to crew for you should anyone flake out on you.

Thomas

Not to steal the post, but since you guys are from my area and seem to have been around the Hi Performance scene quite a bit longer than I have, I've got a question:

Where's a good place to get a car weighed (accurate) around the L.A./O.C. area and how much does it cost?

I want to get a good idea of what my bro's no-option, heater-only, Nova tips the scales at.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Doug F.:
We have a basic 14:1 540 Pat Musi built engine we do testing with ported Canfield 310 heads and it makes an honest 930 HP with a cam that isn't too crazy (reasonable lift and 285 or so @.050).Surely not with those cheap Canfields ;) One of the reasons these heads make so much power is due to the exhaust side design. Prolly one of the most under rated set of heads out there IMO.

kjett,

In other words you are saying that the Canfield 310's are good value for the buck, right??

pdq67

I made 671hp out of stock non ported 310cc canfields on my 468.

A guy here made 2000+ NM and 2200 HP out of them.
In a 468. Some portjob though.

Originally posted by pdq67:
kjett,

In other words you are saying that the Canfield 310's are good value for the buck, right??

pdq67 PDQ,

IMO, yes. I'm sending my Canfields 310cc off for a full port job. I'm shooting for 750HP from my little 460 (also cam change, 1pt more compression, and a few other tricks). We'll see what happens.

Enrique, So, by "quite a bit longer" are you saying I'm old smile.gif There are a number of places to find certified scales. Most moving companies have scales. Look up "Public Scales" in the phone book. Go to the warehouse district and ask any trucker where the scales are. Cost is ~ $7 to $10.

Thomas

Doug: You make it seem like carbs won't work at all, period! As far as the distribution issues from cylinder to cylinder, sounds like a tuning issue. If carbs are as bad as you say then no one could run one, and every time you pulled the trigger on a big hit of nitorus it would simply burn the motor down.

I am by no means an expert, but those who know more than me stand pretty firm that carbs make more power than FI, even on a motor less radical than pro stock. I actually know Musi. I was going to talk to him at the PRI show about this, but now it looks like I am not going. I am not dropping names here to try and impress anybody but since you mentioned him, he has already agreed to help me on this motor. When I get closer to getting the cam specs and other questions together I will call him. In all honesty his level of expertice is not needed on a motor this basic. I am more interested in some chassis tuning tips.

I am aware of WJ's comments on FI, and believe me I am not knocking FI. It is surely the wave of the future and I wish Pro-stock would allow it. My dream motor would be a twin turbo, FI, big bore, small stroke, big block, got a few bucks you can loan me ?

It really isn't the carb, although I would like to do testing, individually flowing a single bore on a carb, it seems to be more the intake manifold design.

Obviously carbs work pretty good for many applications.

I'm not an expert with 30 years of experience, but if you look at how many pistons people used to go through with some carb/nitrous setups, and what a guy running an EFI engine goes through with nitrous, I'd say their is a large improvement in safety, judging buy the racers I've talked to.

There's a lot more too it as well. I've seen indiviual nitrous jet flowed on a high dollar stand (fuel and nitrous jets) that were all over the place. The only company I know of that sells jets that are individually flow tested now is NOS.

After you do testing with a lot of instrumentation, you would wish you almost never saw the data.

There are a lot of dynamics going on. Lucky for most people most engines can take quite a bit. When you do severe damage you really stepped over the line.


Pat's shop will do a great job with any engine they build for a customer.

Originally posted by 70_chevelle:
wolfplace - this is right off Brodix's web site:

M2 BB-2 XTRA
2.300 INTAKE 183 235 294 340 376 395 408
1.880 EXHAUST 134 177 216 247 268 280 288

http://www.brodix.com/2004_Catalog/35-36.pdf

and on AFR's web site:

http://www.1970chevelle.net/afr.jpg

Lee =

Lee, as I said I am not knocking either head as I sell both but what is your point??
The only place I see any improved flow with the Brodix is at .200 on the intake???
Every where else the AFR outflows the Brodix by a substantial amount if you want to use your numbers.
On the same bench under the same conditions I think the numbers would be closer than those as I believe Brodix uses a 4.500 bore on the big heads & doesn't use a pipe on the exhaust but I really doubt you will pick up the difference unless the Brodix were done on a 4.250 or .310 bore & even then all it would do is make the heads closer to even as I feel they are.

Again, both are excellent heads but there is no way in an honest test the Brodix is going to flow a "ton more" ;)

woflplace - my mistake when you look at their web site the first column is mixed in with the valve size! I feel stupid now! All the columns were shifted over to the left. I do hope these heads perform as expected!

Lee

Originally posted by 70_chevelle:
woflplace - my mistake when you look at their web site the first column is mixed in with the valve size! I feel stupid now! All the columns were shifted over to the left. I do hope these heads perform as expected!

Lee =
Lee,
If I started listing all my mistakes it would take til,,,, well a long time :D

Mistakes are a part of learning, or so it seems so for me & at least yours was just some misinformation,,

When mistakes really suck is in the shop when you hear,,,,, "whoops" or "oh S##t :(

Again, I think both heads are excellent & are capable of making some very serious power..
Are you going to dyno your deal?
I think the heads are going to be the limiting factor on a 632 regarding HP but I do believe you are going to have an obscene amount of torque graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
I agree the stars will have to align perfectly (or a friendly dyno) for this motor to make 1000 hp. My personal guess is 950 to 975.

I know Rehermorrison does some work to thiers to get the power out of it they do. I have some pretty good guys helping me and we are going to give it our best shot.

As far as the carb v. FI debate, below is a pretty good article by Pro-sytems. I know they make carbs but none the less it is very imformative

http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html

Hey Wolfplace, what is your estimate on this? =
Sorry John, I missed the question,,
You mean my guesstimate :D
Ok,,,, My dartboard says about 850-900.

Thanks Wolf, I hope to prove you wrong by at least 50 hp. smile.gif

I will post the results when I get them.

wolfplace - I will chassis dyno when done. This project is not a max effort, gain every little bit of HP. My goal has been from the start to build a solid and reliable bracket motor that I dont have to spin past 6500 and will last several years before having to freshen it up. The car weighs 2550 with driver and I'm thinking low 9's will be just fine.

If and when she wants to go faster then a simple swap of heads would be a major HP gain and then I'll put those heads on my chevelle!

BTW, I'm very tempted to have these flow tested just for the heck of it to see how they really perform...

Lee

Originally posted by 70_chevelle:
wolfplace - I will chassis dyno when done. This project is not a max effort, gain every little bit of HP. My goal has been from the start to build a solid and reliable bracket motor that I dont have to spin past 6500 and will last several years before having to freshen it up. The car weighs 2550 with driver and I'm thinking low 9's will be just fine.

If and when she wants to go faster then a simple swap of heads would be a major HP gain and then I'll put those heads on my chevelle!

BTW, I'm very tempted to have these flow tested just for the heck of it to see how they really perform...

Lee Lee,
email me ;)

Originally posted by 70_chevelle:
My goal has been from the start to build a solid and reliable bracket motor that I dont have to spin past 6500 and will last several years before having to freshen it up.
Lee please someone correct me if i am wrong but isnt the purpose of bracket racing to be able to run consistent times run after run. it would seem to me that a 1000 hp bracket car would be harder to make consistent than a lower hp car. i mean with all that hp and torque you could have some serious traction and suspension issues. and with such a motor you would have to be on top of every tuning option possible to keep it consistant.

Umass - The car in question is a tube chassis vette with 33x16 tires and the car only weighs 2200 without driver. This setup is far more consistent and can handle the power versus a factory door car. This car is certified to 7.50, has way more tire then it needs for only 9.0's. There should be no tire issues!

Here is a picture of it:

http://www.1970chevelle.net/corvette_640.jpg

Lee

Very nice,,, graemlins/beers.gif

nice vette. you know... you guys make me feel like i am playing with tinker toys sometimes when i see what you are working on. Someday i will be that cool. Still it is a good education just following your posts for now.

thanks.

Vettes make cool race cars. That is a very nice C-4.

If it is certified for 7.50's when will it see a big blue bottle (or two ;) ) to run that number. Should not be to tough for a 632, even if it is fuel injected tongue.gif

69 Ratt Vette - No Bottles! My agreement was she could only go 9.0's, it's makes me nervous as it is watching my wife run the qtr.

Lee

1/4 m. calc. I use with 1000hp, car wt. 2200# should be well into the 8sec range with 5-600hp add with nos should be well into 7sec range!!!
Would be cool to experience your first trip down the track in your Vette when you hit the button! :eek:

the local engine shop to me ( Ultra tech racing Engines) just dynoed his 580CID 12.5 -1 Dart Pro-1 out of the box. 800 lift roller cam, single carb. made 990 HP with the best carb, average was 975. I can get more spec's if your interested.

They also built a 622 with profiler heads and single carb, it made 1050.

Both are for sale..not sure of how much or details, because their just nothing i would need.

Mike

Mike 1985, yes I would be interested in the combo, thanks. Bore, stroke, rod length, cam specs, max power rpm, etc. What ever info you feel like posting would be appreciated. Were the heads out of the box stuff, CNC ?

Give him a call
Norm Ultratech Racing Engines

574-256-9462

A friend of my son's has a 593" Big Block with the M2 "CNC" ported BB-2 Extras and it flies. On the motor with 12" E.T. Streets and 4.56 gears it ran 9.68 @ 141 MPH on the motor with a very tight converter. After changing the gears back to 4.10s he two staged the nitrous, using 200 to get started and coming in with a 400 shot 1.8 seconds into the run, dropping the first stage, it ran 8.63 @ 162.92 MPH on the rev limiter the last 150 feet. This car is almost 3500 pounds. Think what that light Corvette will do with a similar motor. This motor has gas ports, 15.5 compression and R-M manifold with a fogger nitrous system and will probably run low 8.4s if it bites at all, next spring.

What's the difference between the M2 BB-2xtras and the standard BB-2xtras?

Hi Rumblin, If you pull up the Brodix website you'll see all their regular heads and can compare the flowrates. The M2 "CNC" headsflow from 15-20 CFM more across the board than the standard ones. The Camaro i mentioned in my post made 754 RWHP on a good Dynojet at 7000. Thats about 942 Flywheel with a Turbo 400 trans.

By the way, to all interested, a tunnel ram with two fours will add about 60-80 H.P. over a regular plenum, single four barrel manifold with a big cam. Several new developmental items are coming to the market place. Dart has a new set of 383cc, 18 degree heads with the standard port arrangement that are said to be able to use the existing intake manifolds, although i'm sure some porting would be necessary. These heads outflow all standard heads from .300 up on the intake side.

I've had great luck with my 2xtra's on my 540. Thye have been ported very nicely though. Pump gas, 3.07 gears and a 5 speed....10.04 and 139.96 mph so far at 3600 lbs. Gotta work on that 1.55 60' time though!

Hey John...I was talking to machine shop today. They were putting together a 540 for a customer. It was bought used and they were going through it and changing some stuff. It has Eagle crank and rods, SRP pistons (13.5+?)ported 360 Darts and a Dart intake. New cam expecting to make 950-975+ they say, then he's got a fogger and a plate system on top of it. Of course the reason they were messing with it was the first time one system was engaged a fuel solenoid failed and it torched a bunch of stuff! I'll let you know on what it really dyno's at as soon as I hear.

You nitrous guys are hard on stuff!


JIM

69 ratt vette,


i have to apologise to you, i talked to him and the heads are out of the box untouched 18 deg dart pro 1's. big chief heads. My mistake, i apologise.

No problem, thanks for the help

Harold,

Thanks for the info and I did exactly what you had suggested. I thought the M2's used a different design or angle valve or something. What really suprised me was the fact that the M2's are smaller than the xtra's but outflowed them.............

Hi Rumblin, There are several different M2 ported Brodix heads, 2 Plus, 2 Xtras and -4 Xtras and all outflow the standard heads by quite a bit. There are several 12, 14 and 18 degree high flow heads also that make substantially more power than the 24 degree stuff.

Harold,

That is quite a bit of difference. I'll have to take a look at those heads as I haven't heard of them before. Please keep me upated as I'd like to see how this all comes together.