After a lot of research I have decided to go with a 571.5 in. (4.56 x 4.375) short deck.

I bought a Mark 6, CNC GM Bowtie block with billet splayed main caps. I will have the block O-ringed. Going to run 0 deck with .032 copper head gaskets

My heads (Pro Action 320 cc) are being done now, not sure what size the port will end up at, but we are trying to keep it as small as possible and still make the minimum 425 cfm of flow at .750 lift I told the porter I wanted. I have a lot of confidence in this guy, so I am not worried.

Pistons are Venolia 13.5 to 1, nitrous pistons. 1.22 CH Total seal Hellfire rings. JE Pro series pins

Rods are Carrilo +.250 with Carr bolts

Oil pan is a fabbed Steff's kickout (7 quart) with windage screen. Stock GM oil pump.

Still looking for a crank, probably going to buy a new Lunati Pro series.

Per Harold Brookshire, cam will be a Lunati solid roller 282 / 292 @ .050 .768 lift with 1.8 rockers on a 114 LSA. I will run 1.6 rockers (.683 lift) on the street to save on lifter life.

I am going to run twin 1000 cfm Holley throttle bodies on a Hogans tunnel ram. Still doing some research on the injectors I will use. My knowledge is a little weak here so I have some research to do before I make a decision. I was told by Pat Musi to run the Accel DFI for the brains, so I will.

The Holley throttle bodies have built in nitrous passages that are good to up to 200 hp each. I will run these up to 150 each. I am not a big fan of "Dry" nitrous systems.

I am going to run a Pro Race Fogger for the big nitrous stuff. I am going to send it back to Jeff Prock for one of his tunes.

The goal is 900 HP + on the motor and 1400 with a Prock tuned nitrous hit.

The tranny will be a Lenco 4 spd. Not sure of the clutch yet, got some research to do their also.

Rear is a full Tom's IRS, 12 bolt spool. 3.73 or 3.90 gears

I most HP I have steered down the 1/4 is about 800, so I will take my time and work up to the big power stuff.

Any comments or critics ?

John

i dunno how u can call a 13.5:1 engine a street engine, but wowza's it'd be cool. You build a new engine every 6 months or something? I swear you, or someone with a simular nick built a 540 or somethin after just building a stout 454. Maybe im confused. Regardless, keep us informed on how it all works together. Hope u get it dynoed on the engine stand and on a chassis dyno. That Lenco shouldnt rob much power. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Sounds to me like your building a pretty high dollar/high caliber engine. I can only suggest you find a reputable race enging builder and work with him on any type of combination/parts selection. To achieve your performance goal, I think it's imperative that you work closely with an experience professional race engine builder.

Sorry I can't add anymore, but that type of engine build is out of my league.

This will be the 3rd motor in 2 years, haven't blown any up, just steeping up in power.

13.5 to 1 is not the most streetable combination, but all the car shows I go to are very close to my house. I will of course trailer to the track. Not really into cruizin any more, like to limp it to the car shows and show it off, and go to the track every now and then and flog the H*!! out of it. Then it will sit in nmy garage for 3 months while I fix the broken parts from the track tongue.gif

I am working very closely with guys who build motors like this pretty regularly, some of it is over my head as well. I have no problems asking questions.

I will engine and chassis dyno it, even though as we all know dynos have a mind of thier own. I will consider the MPH it pulls the true test of the power it makes. Optimistically looking for 150 MPH when it is all sorted out, we'll see.

It would seem to me for the compression, the cubes, the induction, something is not working together. I saw an engine article in Hot Rod { still have it, looking at it as I write this. 565CI on 91 OCt. Pump Gas = 1050 HP.} This type of power is out of my willingness to self indulge, I just wander if you need to look at it differently.

Sounds interesting all the way around - I like your brand of speed disease smile.gif I don't remember if you made your sportsman license yet, or maybe this combo will be your ticket for that.

I know that you will probably be stubborn about this, but I would rather have a live axle conversion than the stoutest of I.R.S.'s. I think a live axle will power down the track straighter than an I.R.S.

Probably not much chance that you will have it all together and sorted for Super Chevy - but for sure I want advance notice of you new combo's track debut. If you need a tow vehicle just let me know.

Thomas

I don't think you need anywhere near that much motor to run 150mph+. 30 years ago a friend ran 144 with a 482 real good heads(for the time).750 lift roller and an old dual dominator tunnel ram. The car was a 66vette with complete street trim that weighed 3300lbs without him. Used a 2.88 low ST-10 and a Pepe's 4.11 rear end. He came out at almost idle and granny shifted to save the IRS.

GRN Chevy, I have seen that article also, no way to put this anyway but bluntly so here goes. A lot of guys in the know have serious questions about the dyno shop a lot of the magizines use. If they truley made 1050 hp with a NA 565 with crap 91 octane, then they are motor gods, but I suspect not. Just for comparrsion take a peak at one of the premier engine building shops in the country, Rehermorrison.com. Same guys from the Pro Stock team. Their 14 to 1 compression Dart 14* Chief CNC Pro mod ported Super Series 565 makes 1035 HP, obvioulsy on full race gas.

Tom, when the funds are better I will back half the car. Probably next year.

That 565 also probably ran a higher compression ratio than most might think. THey had a huge cam, great heads, coated everything (for heat resistance), cut back timing, and very low engine temps because its a boat engine. I think they were 135 degree temps or something. And not only that, those Profiler heads and the intake were worked over a bunch, reshaping and perfecting the ports. Even with all the tricks the pro's use to squeeze all the power they can out of an engine, i wouldnt say the dyno they used was a conservative one, so it probably wouldnt match that 1050 number on most dynos. But who cares, it made a crap load of power.

I've thought about making a 4.625" b x 4.375" s = 588" motor using a standard deck height Dart or Merlin block, 6.44" long rods and only about 10 to 1 or so CR. for running pump gas..

My rational is to have a great big 396 look-a-like motor to play with on the street, that's all.... One of them two gear motors!!

Don't need it and don't even have my 496" tow-truck motor in my car but I'm still dreaming..

pdq67

John,

You took my response wrong. The mag article may actually be way off. I was just using it as a reference to the claim of running on 91 Octane, which to me would say - this is a "streetable" engine.

GRN69CHV

I hear ya, 13.5 to 1 is not my definition of a "Streetable" engine either, but for a 100 mile an month car show / strip motor it will be ok.

John,

When I got home last night, I did take another look at that article as a comparison. Yes there are a lot of different things that went into the engine, the biggest being the tall deck block and the longer rods. The heads/induction - I would think your setup to be as good or superior to what they used. Just out of curiosity, the last motor you did was a 540". I assume you did this on the same block? I was considering a stroker motor for the '69 Velle I am finishing (everything from stroking the 408 block to doing a 454 based stroker) but have decided to use the 408 as it is until I get the car completely done and then do an engine swap/upgrade down the road. Had you looked into the rod length? I had received numerous responses with differing degrees of opinnion as to the best approach to considering rod ratio. Some of the options I am going to explore is standard deck using a very large bore {4.5+} with everything from 4" stroke with long rods to strokers with shorter rod ratios or possibly going to a tall deck block. When you get this running I would be interested in how this engine runs. From what I can gather, the 4.375 stroke combined with the comparatively short rod and a tight LSA should come on real hard.

The last motor I did was a nitrous 454, street / strip motor, trying to sell it now to help pay for this one. This new block I have is virgin. I used to be more concearned about rod length than I am now. I have the Rehermorrison engine building books and they are pretty unimpressed with rod length, within reason of course.

I will post the results of this motor when I dyno and race it.

You probably don't want to hear this, but I'd sure think twice about using the Corvette IRS with anywhere near that much HP, no matter how big and beefy the halfshafts, Ujoints, inner and outer axles are. The torque is muliplied 4+ times by the rear gears and puts a lot more strain on those parts than the driveshaft. If you are using the '63-'82 susp that uses the halfshafts as a load bearing member, you do know if something breaks that the tire and trailing arm, etc., will collapse in against the inner fender. All hell will happen if you are at speed as the car is thrown out of control. With the '84 up susp it is much safer as the halfshafts aren't load (car weight) bearing. With my stock '69 stuff, luckily when I broke Ujoints (the most common breakage) in my Vette stocker, it was while coming off the line. One time the whipping halfshaft punched a hole in the body and took out the battery. After I replaced the components with huge Henry's Axles stuff it didn't break anything else but the butt pucker factor was still there. A friend of mine was killed in 1982 at National Trail Raceway when his SS/EA '67 Vette broke something in the IRS rear near the finish line at about 135. The car flipped and he was thrown out when the fiberglass floor and seat broke out of it. NHRA came up with some new rules for Vettes shortly after that. I sold mine in 1983.

Von: I am aware of the IRS problems. I have all Tom's rear end stuff and am up grading it to a 6 link and welding in some "skid plates" if it breaks it will fall an inch or so and that is it. Later I will back half the car.

Sorry to hear about your friend :(

You should have no problems nailing 900hp/1400hp - even easier going 15:1 / spread port head / carbs on sheetmetal - but that wouldn't be nearly as different!

IMO

MAT

I concur with MAT - if you are spending that kind of money, why don't you just go with the new Ray Franks 12 deg heads? You will be up 100hp from the best conventional heads out there.

You could build my 632 for less money than you are spending and I only have 11:1 CR and can run on 92 octane. Based on mph/weight, I am making more power than you are after and at a lower RPM than you will be with the 572.

The other thing I've been told is either go big or go home on the compression - if it is a race car, go 15:1, if it is a street car, go 10-11:1. 13.5:1 won't run hard on pump gas, and C12 and C16 cost almost the same so you might as well build it for C16.

Re: "I most HP I have steered down the 1/4 is about 800, so I will take my time and work up to the big power stuff."

You only crap your pants once, then it's routine. 1400hp isn't a lot different than 800, you just steer more and blink less. Don't spend money twice - go big and then just spray less nitrous until you are ready.

the smart way to do it would be to have the car built to handle that kind of power.

The guy in the opposing lane will thank you.

www.neverliftmotorsports.com (http://www.neverliftmotorsports.com) can help you!

Ryan,

Thanks for chiming in, guys with your experiance are very helpful. Re: the compression it is neither a street car or a strip car. My thoughts are I can limp it around town and to the car shows on crap gas with some good lead thrown in. I am also not trying to make the most power I can, the Lenco tranny I am getting is good to 1200 hp or so. I had a lot of parameters in mind when building this, wanted it to idle reletively well, make 12-1400 hp, look bitchin, be different, run goobs of nitrous, have the lifters and valve train last at least 5000 miles, etc.

Re the heads I am not familiar with the Ray Franks heads, but again I will achieve the hp goals with the Pro Action head for less money I suspect.

I think I have come pretty close to designing what I was after, if it makes the power it should, and lives for a while.

The car will be built to handle the power

With all the money you are going to be spending on this engine it seems...well...LAME you would use a "Stock" GM oil pump.
Wouldn't you want something with a higher volume and more reliable? JMHO after all it is your money you will be smoking.

Well I'm going to be blunt like you and say your're getting the cart before the horse! 900hp. N/A engine and 1400with Nitrous?! Will need extensive suspension work for even 900hp. or traction will be a problem ya think?! I think its great that you want to build this engine but would be better one step at a time with suspension and safety first then bring on the horses dude! Goodluck! ;)

I'd have to agree with the above statements..........build the chassis first and then the motor. With 900/1400hp on tap, you could not only hurt yourself, but destroy the car in the process.

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:

Re the heads I am not familiar with the Ray Franks heads, but again I will achieve the hp goals with the Pro Action head for less money I suspect.
If I were you, I'd spend the time to look at these heads or any other symetrical port out there. With the money you are going to invest, this would not be that much more and I think it would be well worth the time and effort to at least check them out.

Who came up with the combo, you or the engine builder?

You did ask for comments!! :D

I know lots of guys that build some killer race motors with stock GM pumps and have not had any problems, and I have known a few that sucked their pan dry and killed their motor with some of the aftermarket ones. That sort of turned me off the aftermarket ones. I will do some more thinking about it.

Thanks for the comments

I am going to check on those heads as well.

Glad to see you're going to look at that style of head.......doesn't hurt to check, especially if you're going with a sheetmetal intake.

As for the oil pump, you might try something like a Moroso blueprinted stock style pump. That's what my motor uses and it might be a happy medium.

Good luck and keep us updated on the progress!!

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I just checked the web site for the Ray Frank heads $$$$, sorry guys but 2550.00 each without valves is out of my league. I am paying 2500.00 for my Pro Actions ported, with titanium retainers, ready to bolt on.

If you don't mind me asking, how much will you have in the motor complete when you're done? I'm guessing close to $20,000 with the EFI and all.

There are other brands of heads out there, just thought that you be interested in that type of technology.

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
I just checked the web site for the Ray Frank heads $$$$, sorry guys but 2550.00 each without valves is out of my league. I am paying 2500.00 for my Pro Actions ported, with titanium retainers, ready to bolt on. With all due respect - don't buy a sheetmetal intake and dual throttle bodies. What is left over will buy you the better heads - you will never make up the incremental power of good heads like RFE and a single plane and dominator and maybe enough left for a nice dinner and a few flats of beer. It'll make more power - and you will NEVER be able to achieve with conventional heads and EFI N/A.

Another intermediate option would be my heads - 1802 big dukes. The budget 18 deg symmetrical port heads. Minor work will get you over 500cfm intake and they come complete. The incremental costs are the shaft rockers (get T&D over jesel - my jesels are more expensive and have less range of adjustment and the t&d's have better oiling), and pushrods. Even my 1802 are bolt on about 100hp over the best conventional heads.

Good idea on the Moroso blue printed pump, I will look into it.

I love the technology, just can't afford it. I have a friend in the industry and I am able to get some parts at a pretty good deal, especially anything from Holley, NOS, Lunati, Venolia, Pro Action and a few others. I also check the used racing web sites constantly for deals.

I do not know an exact number but I would think $15000.00 should cover it.

I agree with 66283........I'd hold off on the EFI and spend the extra monies for the heads now. Then a little later down the road, you can upgrade to the Hogans intake and EFI.

Shafiroff has the 18 degree Big Chiefs for $3795 complete. Port size might be a little big for what you are doing, but it just gives you an idea.

http://www.shafiroff.com/cylinderhead_packages.asp

I'd also check Doug Herbert performance as I remember them having pretty good deals on the profiler heads last time I looked.

If you can do that motor through a professional builder with the EFI for $15,000, you're doin something!!

Just as a disclaimer, I am new to all of this also building my first 'serious' car. I haven't done anything with the profiler heads, but just go by what I have seen by people I work with on thier cars, plus what I have read. You really want to listen to someone like 66283, who has been there and done that with the car to back it up.

I just didn't want you to think I was some professional engine builder or something, although I'll do my best to point you in the right direction.

No doubt if my intentions were to build the stoutest most consistant motor I could, the Chief style heads and a single 4 barrel carb would be the way to go, but I am not.

Don't laugh but part of the intent of the motor is to go to the car shows and have the "Show off value" of a sheetmetal intake and a couple of 1000 cfm throttle bodies sticking out of the hood. The drivability of the EFI will be nice also. If for some reason 1400 hp in a 3400 lbs Vette with a 4 spd Lenco is not fast enough, then some day I will build a race car.

I appreciate all the comment this thread has generated.