On occasion my responses stir some controversy mainly because much of my advice goes against what "we" have been programmed into believing as for as how to achieve certain levels of performance. To this end I thought I'd offer a "second opinion".

As of late there has been some excellent articles written by the folks over at the NSCA (National Street Car Association) and posted on their BB www.headsupreview.com. (http://www.headsupreview.com.)

Patrick Budd(NSCA Tech Director) in particular has been very forthcoming and honest as to what works and why. He regularly answers tech questions posted on their board and has some frank comments regarding the over use and marketing of dynos and hype on flow numbers. One of his recent articles www.headsupreview.com/budd012101.html (http://www.headsupreview.com/budd012101.html) posted here by Todd G. and prompting a spirited debate, demonstrated the merits of building an oval port BB combination over a square port in a heavy street/strip car, something that I have been touting since first posting here at TC. It should come as no surprise that I agree with most of what Patrick writes and advises.

Now comes an article www.headsupreview.com/gklass012101.html (http://www.headsupreview.com/gklass012101.html) about the truth behind the supposed benefits of a "long" rod combo and comments to the debate of an H-beam rod being stronger than an I-beam rod. This is another topic that I participated in on this board several months ago attempting to dispel the rumors and marketing claims regarding H-beam rods. I find it interesting that "George" uses the same example as I had regarding this debate.

One more thing to think about guys. Did you ever notice when reading about a feature car in our favorite car magazines especially those involved in serious 1/4 mile racing like the NSCA/NMCA with the ET's to back it up how the tech/spec page or a quote from the owner/builder just says for instance that the cam is BIG or HUGE. Ever think that is exactly what "they" want you to think and in fact it(the cam) is actually small relatively speaking of course.

More of "Somethings to think about".

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.



[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-04-2001).]

Your my hero,racer1320.Interesting stuff.I like to read your stuff http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Rick

------------------
66 300 Deluxe 350/330hp
71 350 malibu (project car)
72 Elcam 402SS
78 Malibu Classic (daily driver)

That is a nice site, Ed. Thanks for passing it on.

------------------
James Maggio
'67 Chevelle
"It's all in the smoke"

Racer1320
I would like to say thanks for your willingness to share your knowledge and experience.I don't know enough to really participate in the discussions,but I read your posts with great interest and am learning a lot.I have a 68 with 454/m20.
Tony

1320
i would agree that as far as rod length goes on performance most of us will never see any difference. i can't speak much on big blocks but on a smallblock. especially one with a 400 case and a long stroke, a longer rod will ease the side loading on the cylinder walls. i have seen some 400's push the cylinders out the side of the case. a longer rod will help alleviate this problem to a degree.
as far as design i would not use an H beam rod most are way too heavy in design. i am using crower I beam rods in my 400.

Racer,
Ditto what Tony has written above.
I must admit, when surfing thru the topics here, I ALWAYS stop and read the posts from a few certain guys who frequently respond and offer good, heads up advise.
You are one of these.
Bill

------------------
Bill Burke
TC#613
ACES#3920
'67 El Camino-almost completed!
'91 Camaro RS
67 El Rat-original (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/elkyonjacks.jpg)
67 El Rat-So far (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/BillsCamino5.jpg)

Rick, Tony and Bill thanks for the vote of confidence.

James, enjoy. Maybe Atco next week?

68racer, if you're "windowing" blocks there are other problems and side loading from a shorter rod isn't the problem. I also use Crower rods(sportsman) which I believe are the best for both price and quality.

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

Ed you already know how I feel about everything you give us. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Interesting articles. I was slightly thrown off though by the statement that dual plane manifolds and smaller cams should be used on my tow vehicle and not my Saturday night bruiser. I have a dual plane and was thinking of going to a smaller cam for some more torque/bottom end. But I guess that since my goal is not to build a 10 second warrior, I will stick with the approach that I have. Ed, you know my current situation. I pulled the other head off today. I plan on taking them to NJ for an inspection. If he thinks he can get some power out of them, then I will give it a shot. This is fun for me. I'm just experimenting and learning. Not trying to prove anybody right or wrong. If not, then I will go the oval port route. Probably the 290 casting as it is closer to my current chamber size. If he looks at my head and does not like that rust mark I see (cracked head??) then I will abandon the idea altogether of trying to improve my rect's and switch right away to ovals.
Now about that cam choice.....A while back you mentioned starting a post on tips for cam selection. Boy I could use that info about now http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif The link to the article in your post above led me to believe I would be better off with a solid grind. If I read correctly, more exhaust duration but less exhaust lift?? I thought more exhaust lift was better.

Done shoveling/snowblowing yet??
Jim R.

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My 70 Chevelle (http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jim/)

[This message has been edited by Epistuff (edited 03-05-2001).]

Jim, if we keep on getting snow and I spend the weekends at home instead of the track that post on cams will be coming sooner than later. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/mad.gif

A roller really should only be choosen when serious 1/4 mile action is planned and max ET is the goal. A solid cam is an excellent choice however with the motors that Patrick built and to attain those ET's a "big" solid cam and turning higher RPMs is required.

With exhaust lift there is a point of diminishing returns so why lift the valve any higher than necessary. With the grinds that I'm refering to however the exhaust side will have both more lift and duration.

You may want to read this thread www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum4/HTML/004205.html (http://www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum4/HTML/004205.html) for my and others responses.

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.



[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-05-2001).]

Ed, I too always stop and read your posts and responses. I am not much of a modifier of engines nor am I a racer, but your advice is always well taken and respected by most of us here.

------------------
Leo Paugh
Maryland Chevelle Club #017
A.C.E.S.#3731
Goals are dreams with deadlines.
Maryland Chevelle Club (http://www.clark.net/pub/chevelle/mcc.htm)

1320 the above problem is going to happen over time to any 400 case making over 500 horsepower. a longer rod helps to lessen the problem to a degree. filling the case with an epoxy will help also but is a very extreme fix, and would definetly a race only piece.

Well I just red that article on outlawing the Wheelie Bar and it just twisted my views of drag racing. Anyone wanna sound off on that?

Ed, you'da'man.

------------------
Francis Taracido Gold# 201
sniper0666@aol.com
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.
Oh No! You Know She's Got To Go!
Go Go Quadzilla! <oo=+=oo>
http://members.aol.com/sniper0666/page/intro.html

Yea, I agree with Bret Kepner aka Mr.Dirt for those that remember his 14? part series on bracket racing tatics in the now defunct Drag Racing Monthly - Stock/Super Stock magazine.

Something has got to be done and quick. Drag Racing especially the NHRA Professional classes have become rather boring and appear cookie cutter to the average fan. Stock and Super Stock is the most exciting classes to watch with their wheels up launches however they receive the least amount of press and no television coverage.

"Street Car" racing had appeal in the late 80's and early 90's but it too is giving way to corporate america and big name sponsorship and from a participants perspective it no longer is a grass roots series but for the most part a professional endeavor where all but a few cars/drivers in each catagory are just "also ran" participants.

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-05-2001).]

I know this is getting away from Ed's original post, but here goes.

I agree that much of professional drag racing has become ho-hum for spectators. I myself only really enjoy watching the door cars...mainly P/S car, truck, stock & S/S. The Nitro catagories hold no real fascination with me. I guess many find the sound & quick speeds fascinating, but unless it has doors, it's hard for me to identify with.

The "Super" catagories have got to be the most boring to sit and watch. They might be fun for the competitors, but why bother sitting and watching cars launch, die, and take off again?

It is my opinion that for drag racing to get as popular as say NASCAR, the races would need to be more appealing for spectators to watch. I don't see Bret's "no wheelie bar" idea being embraced by NHRA, IHRA, NSCA, NMCA, etc.

Novel idea (which i like), but I think it will simply stay that way...an idea.

I also agree that the fastest street car racing scene has gotten too big for the "little guy". I have followed these series since day one with the hopes of being able to compete myself. Just in the last year or two have I come to accept that heads-up racing is a very large financial investment. teh days of a guy building his own engines in his two car garage and being competetive are gone. Most of the "hitters" have "name brand" engine builders and spend many hours on the dyno tweaking for every last HP.

------------------
Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Naive...I was.
Skeptical...I am becoming.
Determined...I have always been.
"The only way to fail is to stop trying."

Todd, I couldn't agree with you more. Drag racing has become a megga buck sport.and other than pro stock car and truck and don't forget super stock and stock. you can get more excitement watching paint dry or grass grow. Fastest street car racing had a good idea but... untill they find a way to put a cap on the amount of money guys can spend on their ride's.And no sponsor's. You're going to have the guy's that have never even sat in a muscle car... but has big bucks. come in and blow everyone off the track.Drag racing has gotten away from it's roots of you and your dad or son building a quick and safe car in your G. and running what you brung.It's sad to say that money not knowledge is winning drag races nowa days.Ans IMO this truly SUCKS!!!

------------------
Don Edmonds
T.C.Member 1033
1969 Chevelle
2000 Harley softail deuce
www.bottlerats69.homestead.com

the most exciting drag racing to me seems to be the little guy 10" tire groups that are cropping up everywhere. they race for little to no money. there is a club in the north east called quick street that do about 4-5 races a year at NE dragway. there are generally about 8-15 cars. they run from the high 8's to the low 10's. most guys are in the 9's though. a friend of mine started the club and says that its growing. most of the guys put there own motors together. the most popular are the 454-496" based motors. although most of these cars are street legal I would not call them true street cars. although I can't afford to race with them I love to watch. a lot of these cars are simple and well scienced out cars.

------------------
1969 SS 396

Jim ( EPI) you should look at my cam grind, it is really nice. Now Ed will nit pick pick about the 114 lsa which makes it idle exceptionally smooth and gives a good broad power band, but the same cam is avaialbe in a 108 LSA if you want lope and peaky power that comes on quick.

Crane F304-2 238/248 @0.050 .544/.567 or their part number F13000001 for the same grind done on a 108 LSA. I havent found a nicer solid yet. Perfect hot street cam.

Gene, me nit pick? Nah. I do like that Crane grind you use. However good broad powerbands don't ET as well as narrower power bands especially in heavy cars. Try your cam ground on a 108LSA and you'll think you've got a different motor and will feel it in the seat of your pants besides seeing it on the time slip.

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

Just thought I would share some info I discovered last night while on the HPC live chat. One person there was Jeff Chandler who runs NMCA Real Street with a '68 or'69 Chevelle http://www.geocities.com/proorange . His car has a 512 ci bbc and has Dart 320 heads, and GRP aluminum rods in the shortblock. His car runs 9 teens @ 149-150 mph in the 1/4 mile no nitrous. He told me he shifts the car at 8400 rpm and runs through the traps at 8600 rpm. He also told me his rods get replaced every 40 passes and the valves springs every 40 passes as well! Geeze, talk about expensive maintence.

Another guy on the chat I know is a crew member for Nick Scavo who runs a '69 Camaro in NMCA & NSCA Super Street. He told me Nick shifts his bbc at 8800 rpm! Dangit that's some serious high rpm and parts replacement.

A local guy to me, Rod Saboury used to run a 800+ ci bbc in Outlaw Street (no nitrous as well). He ran a Sonny Leonard engine. He didn't realize it at the time, but Sonny wants those bullets back every 25 passes for be freshened. The cost of freshening was $8000.00!

This just goes to show that heads up racing is way beyond what a "little guy" can afford to compete with.

------------------
Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Naive...I was.
Skeptical...I am becoming.
Determined...I have always been.
"The only way to fail is to stop trying."

Todd, doesn't every "REAL" street car have to do this? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/confused.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Now we're talking rectangular port head territory! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.



[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-06-2001).]

Ed,Atco this weekend?? Weather pending.

From your mouth to God's ears.

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

Cool. I'll try and make it up there on Sun.

if you guys are going to atco .then ill try and head up talk to you guys

Hey Ed,

Have you heard any weather reports for ATCO this coming weekend? Did you plan on Saturday or Sunday?

Aound here, the weather reports seem to have improved...partly cloudy and high 40's to low 50's.

------------------
Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Naive...I was.
Skeptical...I am becoming.
Determined...I have always been.
"The only way to fail is to stop trying."

Todd, according to the weather channel www.weather.com (http://www.weather.com) Sunday is going to be 55* and partly cloudy. Looks good so far. You considering coming out? I don't expect a great starting line but you can be sure that Atco will have the best starting line in the Northeast come Sunday.

So this weeks plan is Sunday 3/11 at Atco and next week is Saturday 3/17 at Atco(start of points) and Sunday 3/18 at E-Town(start of points).

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-07-2001).]

Yea, I'm thinking about it if i can get at least one person to come with me. What time do the gates open?

Can you send me some directions from the turnpike?

You definately going to be there?

------------------
Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Naive...I was.
Skeptical...I am becoming.
Determined...I have always been.
"The only way to fail is to stop trying."

Todd, 55 and partly cloudy! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/eek.gif You can bet the ranch on it!

I'll email you directions and my # if you want to call me Saturday night. Gates open at 9:00 and I'll be there by 9:00. Want to meet for breakfast?

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-07-2001).]

Man, I better get my butt in gear...the suburban needs an oil change, trailer needs looking over, gotta pack the truck.

I'll try and let you know something this evening. I'm tcalling to see if I can get anyone to go along.

------------------
Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Naive...I was.
Skeptical...I am becoming.
Determined...I have always been.
"The only way to fail is to stop trying."

I just got logged on to this chevelle site and its great,, I can reveal a good dependable combo on a bb chevy,, my car is a 66 chevelle when i was doing quite a bit of street driving the combo i ran was radical but dependable i am talking street miles and 2500+ passes, here goes 468 2 bolt cast crank, stock rods with arp bolts, 2307 trw pistons, ported 781 oval port heads 2.19 1.88 valves flat tappet cam 270- 280 at 50 this cam was on the wild side but bleed enuff cyl. pressure to run pump gas it ran 10.70s at 122 at 3600lbs. that was then now run 509 cu. that has been 9.90s on radials at 3800lbs. without nos,, right now i am playing with nitrous and at 3800lbs. on a 175 shot have been 5.90s on eighth at 122 still got bolt on suspension components,, going this weekend putting a little more juice to it and hoping to go some 70s I will keep you guys informed on how it does!!!! CHEVELLES RULE!!!!!! joey harris

im starting to get braine washed into ovals http://www.chevelles.com/forum/eek.gif but how does my buddys 68velle run 10.42s on street slicks? 1.40 60 ft with rec. ports, http://www.chevelles.com/forum/cool.gif and as far as rod length, theres less side load on the piston skirt, if you take a peice of paper and draw the two you can see wy there is less loading http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Hey Ed,

My dad is going to tag along, so as long as the weather holds, were gonna go for it. If you want to meet for breakfast, send the directions there too. I'll have to admit that i ain't too social early in the morning, but after 2 1/2 hours driving, hopefully I'll be awake by the time we get there. lol.

Anyone else in the area, come on out...sounds like a fun day!

------------------
Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Naive...I was.
Skeptical...I am becoming.
Determined...I have always been.
"The only way to fail is to stop trying."

Joey, very nice '66 and stout too. I've seen it in the 7/00 issue of Chevy High Performance. I've read elsewhere that you're having problems hooking. No surprise huh. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif I've also read that you're trying a new suspension. If it doesn't workout maybe I can help.

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-07-2001).]

509, 10.40's with rectangular port heads in a Chevelle no problem. But it's not happening with a 468 in a real street car weighing upwards of 2 tons running on pump gas.

Same old story same old answer. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-07-2001).]

Todd, that's fine we can skip breakfast. You think it will take you that long? According to map quest your closer than me and less than 2 hours.

------------------
racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

Wow, looks like a party is forming at Atco. If I can get somebody to work for me on Sunday, I'll show up also. No Chevelle though, no heads on it for now. Just watching and taking notes.

Jim

------------------
My 70 Chevelle (http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jim/)

Naw man, breakfast is on...9:00 and give me directions right?

------------------
Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net
Naive...I was.
Skeptical...I am becoming.
Determined...I have always been.
"The only way to fail is to stop trying."

Ahhhhhhhhh,,,,the good ole days :D I was flipping thru the pages and found this, just had to run it thru one more time.

Good post Bob. Sometimes we forget that it wasn't all just fussin' & fightin'.

Yep, Ed is a very knowledgeable person, and was glad to help anyone that asked. Its amazing what you can find in the old posts. When I started here in '99 I had the basics down,loved big blocks, loved drag racing, and always have. I've learned alot from this site from those that are here and those that don't come around anymore.

Yep, Ed is a very knowledgeable person, and was glad to help anyone that asked. Its amazing what you can find in the old posts. When I started here in '99 I had the basics down,loved big blocks, loved drag racing, and always have. I've learned alot from this site from those that are here and those that don't come around anymore.
Agree 100%. Ed has given me some great advice in the past. Switching to the Alf Wiebe rear suspension is probably the best thing I have done for my car's consistency :thumbsup: At the divisionals last week three passes at the same time of day on different days were within .001 of each other :D

If you don't mind me asking, Ken, how much did Alf's system cost? Is it a true bolt-on? Was there ANY fabbing or welding at required at all? Were you able to install it yourself?

I know Alf doesn't want it to be used for any street use, but is it possible for weekend only cruising, plus a drive to the track? Is it THAT harsh or dangerous?

Yeah. The good ole days. I think I started with my 1st (and only other) username in early '99. Been with this one since like 2000 or so.

Time really flies. I wonder how many other internet sites have regulars that have hung around 5+ years?

EDIT: I just checked. I registered here with that old name on Dec. 17th, 1998. Damn. Even farther back than I thought. When did it first become TC? I know it was Cold Beers, Hot Cars (or something like that) in the beginning.

If you don't mind me asking, Ken, how much did Alf's system cost? Is it a true bolt-on? Was there ANY fabbing or welding at required at all? Were you able to install it yourself?

I know Alf doesn't want it to be used for any street use, but is it possible for weekend only cruising, plus a drive to the track? Is it THAT harsh or dangerous?

Yeah. The good ole days. I think I started with my 1st (and only other) username in early '99. Been with this one since like 2000 or so.

Time really flies. I wonder how many other internet sites have regulars that have hung around 5+ years?

EDIT: I just checked. I registered here with that old name on Dec. 17th, 1998. Damn. Even farther back than I thought. When did it first become TC? I know it was Cold Beers, Hot Cars (or something like that) in the beginning.

Justin,

Alf's setup was right at $1,400 including shipping from Vancouver. It is indeed a bolt in system. The only thing I had to weld was some upper spring retainers. The earlier model A-Body cars use a pig tail lower and an open upper spring. The springs that come with Alf's kit are pig tail on both ends. No welding would be required on post '68 (and possibly late model '67) A-Bodys. I installed the system myself (including the welding). It was pretty time consuming to install. There is a lot of weld spatter in the factory mounting areas that has to be cleaned up. Alf fabs his system "tight" so that it is integral with the frame/rear. You can drive on the street with this suspension so long as your mindful of pot holes or other rough road conditions. This system uses solid rod ends (heim joints) so there is nothing there to absorb the shock. I wouldn't recommend it for a daily driver, but limited street use is OK, IMO. The system is extremely flexible in terms of adjustability. You can move the axles forward/rearward within the tire well, center the rear from driver to passenger side, adjust pinion angle and pre-load. For my application it was $$$ VERY well spent.

Ed is stern on his opinions but he will help anyone who asks. I worked for 2 years trying to get Alfe's number. I saw his suspension on a B stock 70 chevelle in, wheels up runnin 1.38 60'

The owner wouldn't give out his number, had (2) stock eliminnator connections niether could get the guy to hand out the number. Then ol' Ed came through gave it me no questions asked.

I enjoyed the confrontational reading, Now I go to drag race results, ol Ed is still at it over there LOL.

I feel alot of love in this post......................I think I'm going to cry. :) Is this an attempt at a big greasy TC group hug?

Well, it will be a couple of years, but when the time comes, it looks like I'll be checking out Alf's system.

Is the Wolfe Race Craft set-up in similar quality and functionality to the Alfe Wiebe system?

Nothing like it.

I didn't know this existed!

AND I for one miss Ed...

Iman too!!

ANd Chicane over on Team Camaro.

pdq67

Man...talk about coming back from the Dead...must be getting close to Halloween!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/sabaa/smileys2/hh14.gif

heck i thought ed was back good april fools joke in october i guess .its hard to find someone that will share all there infoe with you like he did.i always figured you could use it or not thats our own choice,any ways good reading

I can't seem to get any of the links to work. Would someone please varify that they are good links, I would like to read those articles. Thanks.