I finally got my motor running, 454, .680" solid roller. Its been running for a couple of weeks but never drove the car due to rearend set up and install. I went out and started the motor and let it warm up for about 20 minutes. I hit the throttle a couple of times and the motor locked up, spitting water and anti-freeze out the carb. and both headers :( . I finally was able to try and pull the motor to see what happened. I got everything ready to pull when I realized that I couldn't turn the motor to get the converter bolts out. I started tearing the motor down in the car and thats when I found out part of my problems. An intake valve on #5 broke the stem and the vave head dropped down and knocked a hole in the piston and the wedged itself in the head, knocking out the valve seat and guide. It appears that it bent a rod also seeing how piston #5 and #6 are both towards the top of the cylinder. Because of the oil pan I'm running I cant get my motor out of the car. I cant pull the motor and tranny together and I dont want to take a big chance of braking the pump on tranny. Any ideas on how to get the motor to turn so can get the other two converter bolts out???? :eek:

Thaks,
Chris

Chris,
At this point all you can do is pull the trans, leaving the converter hooked up to the flywheel. It will make a mess, but you have no choice. It really should not hurt anything in the trans or converter. Next step is to find out why it dropped the valve :(

With the heads off, and the distributor off, you should be able to remove both motor and tranny at once with the added oil pan interferance. How deep is the oil pan? I was about 1" from being able to drop both in at once, and I had the heads on, and a heater box.

Is the tranny dipstick off?
Is there a heater/AC box in the way?

Don't forget the tranny will dump all kind of lfuid out the back if it is not drained.

Good luck.

If it is one of the deep kickout aftermarket pans there is no hope of pulling the engine and trans together (mine is about 3/8" behind the crossmember and goes straight down to the bottom of the xmember). The engine must come straight up for several inches. I'd think I'd consider taking the converter out with the trans. Less mess and, I'd think, less chance of damage.

My oil pan is a 6 Quart Moroso with a kicked out sump. It barely clears the cross member in the car. When I went to install the long block I couldn't stab the motor and tranny together due to firewall clearance issues. I pretty much had to drop the motor straight in without the tranny. My car did have A/C originally but I made an A/C delete box to where I can still use my heater. The box sticks away from the firewall about 2" maybe. I currently have both heads off, intake, and distributor. The tranny dip stick is still in, but can be pulled out with ease. It didn't dawn on me till you guys mentioned it about maybe pulling the motor and tranny together since I have the excess height out of the way. Unfortunately I go in for surgery tommorrow and won't be able to try it for two weeks :( . Oh ya my car is a '70 model. Thanks for the input :D .

Chris

That really sucks. I wonder if your crank broke or twisted? We wanna see pictures. :D

As soon as I can get out, I'll take some pics and post them. Warning they won't be very pretty. This valve really made a mess of things. Well off to the hospital, hope to be back on ina couple of days. smile.gif

Chris

I'd lay odds that you lost a rod first and that's why it (piston ) hit the valve, breaking off the head of the valve. Water out both headers ? Look on the bright side, scrap metal is at an all time high!

Well made it home from the hospital, feel like hell graemlins/sad.gif . I can't wait until I can try and get the rest of my scrap iron out of my car. Looks like a two week recovery time. Thanks for the info guys. I'll still post some picks when I can get them.

Chris

That bites!!! Get better, and then it's off to car hospital afterwards.

Any clue why it dropped the valve? Valves don't usually just up and break in half like that; usually that means piston interference. If I was the guessing kind, that would be my guess anyway.

They're right, just pull the motor and trans apart with the converter still on the flex plate, just put a huge pan or something underneath there to catch all the fluid.

Why leave the converter on the flex plate. Seems taking it out with the trans is the better option.

I just went through this last year..I pulled engine and converter together...no damage and not as messy as I thought it would be

Originally posted by Pat Kelley:
Why leave the converter on the flex plate. Seems taking it out with the trans is the better option. =
Pat,
He can't rotate the engine ;)

Ah, yeah, I forgot about that. redface.gif

Well I'm srarting to feel a little bit better, not much though. I have got to get out of this freekin house :( . I'll try and slip by my buddies house and take a few pics on Sunday. That is if my wife doesn't throw a p*ss fit :rolleyes: . I'll be glad when I can continue on getting the beast out of my car. Thanks for the input guys graemlins/waving.gif .


Chris

OK guys finally made it over to get some pics of my damage. I will try and post the pics in a little bit. Not real sure how to put them in the post, but I'll get it done. Any suggestion would be helpful :D .


Chris

Aw Chris, hospital and a broke engine! Keep the faith bro', thats a lot of muck to wade through all at once. Good luck.

OK here goes. I'm going to try and post my pics. If for some reason I don't get them posted they are in my show room. Went to the doctor today, he still won't let me do any lifting. He said about another two weeks :eek: . I can't wait to get my motor out and pan off to find out what else is screwed up. Thanks for the help guys graemlins/beers.gif . http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/LeftBank.JPG
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/LeftBankCloseUpn5.JPG
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/LeftHead.JPG
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/LeftHeadCloseUp.JPG
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/ValveStemnGuide.JPG


Chris

That is some carnage. Any ideas?

Dude, I think you used the wrong head gasket. Gen IV style heads on a Gen VI block... right. Just from the imprints on the block, it looks like a major mis-sealing nightmare. I'm surprised you were able to run it at all.

:eek:

..hydrolocked and bent the heck out everything? bad valve?

Originally posted by mr 4 speed:
:eek:

..hydrolocked and bent the heck out everything? bad valve? I'm no expert in the LEAST but I agree, I can see no other thing that could rip a piston the proverbial 'new one' like that than hydrolocking?

How about a close up of the other pistons?
Did you check Piston to valve clearance?

i think i could have a found a better place to sit the head on then the fender :eek:

Gotta go with Brian here smile.gif
That damage has nothing to do with any kind of "hydrolock"
Filling a cylinder with fluid will bend a rod or crack a cylinder or break a piston skirt but will not do that kind of damage.
The first things I would look at is piston to valve interference either not enough clearance or the valve sticking in the guide.
Next would be a keeper/ retainer problem, retainer to guide interference shearing the keepers etc.
It's hard to tell from the pics but both #3 & 7 intake pockets look like the valve was hitting at the top of the pocket.

Thanks for the replys guys. As TJC noted I am running a Gen V block with Gen IV heads. I talked with Scoggin-Dickey in Lubbock, Texas and they said that they had an adapter kit to use along with a particular Fel-Pro gasket. They said that they have had alot of succes with this. mr 4 speed, I'm not sure which it was that happened, hydrolock is a damn good possibility. Motor Martyr, we did a mock build up of a cylinder on each bank for valve clearance issues. After we got everything assembled then tore back down we discovered that there was .100 thousandths clearance with out the head gaskets. Only reason I set the head on the fender was because it needs replaced anyways. Any more ideas on how to get this turd out the car?

Chris

You should be able to spin the motor now with the heads off, so you separate the converter from the flexplate.

I agree with Wolfplace,
Not hydrolock, just a dropped valve. If your clearance was .100, then keepers, or the top of valve just sheared off. I would check all the rest of the valve top groves, and replace all the keepers with new.
I feel for ya, this is not a pretty picture, thank goodness I have a strong stomach, these pic's were worse than looking at a pail of live maggots.

Good god i've had race motors pop at high rpm not look that nasty! I agree the motor should spin now unless it broke a rod first.I am thinking the valve seized in the guide open then it sheared off the valve head then hammerd the the valve into the head. Head looks like scrap iron, may have cracked a cyl. wall who knows what else. Was there any scrapnel in the other bank of the motor? Many times i've seen crap blow back across the intake into the other bank and hurt that side too.

Well unfortunately the motor still won't spin over. I discovered this before my surgery. Not sure if I mentioned this but cylinder #5 and cylinder #6 are both towards the top of the cylinder wall :( . I did find debris on the other bank, mainly aluminum shavings. In the head it also broke the boss around the valve guide in cylinder #1. I found it up in the intake. The valve guide boss was also broke out of cylinder #5. You can't really see it, but in cylinders #1 and #5 toward the top of the cylinder there is some sort of an indention in the cylinder wall. I will get some better pics of that. Is there anything else you guys would like better pics of? I know forsure I will be buying a new set of heads and hardware for them. Not sure what else, maybe a new block. I know when I pulled that first head off I had to go outside and hurl. Then I came back in and drank a beer. There doesn't seem to be any visible damage on the right bank of the engine. All the major carnage was on the left. Thanks for all the input guys graemlins/beers.gif .

Chris

if you broke a rod on the damaged cylinder try to pull it out the top with a slide hammer or something. Then you'll be able to see inside at what's broken.

Did you use 7 degree retainers with said ".680" solid roller"?

its bad when stuff like this happens, but you'll learn alot and know how to prevent this from happening again, if you find out why it happened.

My SBC looked very simular...I could not get it to spin until I had it on a stand. When the valve hit the piston it bent a rod breaking a wrist pin and lodging it into the bore...I feel your pain. I was able to save the crank an 7 rods and 5 pistons...and 1 head...but that was it..I hope you have better luck

Chris,
How about a nice close up of one or two of the piston tops, maybe #s 1 & 3. Looks like #7 had water in it too, unless that is your camera making the rusty red look.

Sorry about the damage I know how you feel I had a similar mishap about 6 years ago.The one thing that caught my attention is the valve stem looks perfectly staight,if there was any contact that stem would be bent.It looks as if the valve head snapped off and the stem shot back into the head and didn't get pounded.The valve head looks pretty good for what it went threw, mine looked like a potato chip after the pounding.What kind of valve was it?Was it a one piece stainless or a stock type two piece valve,if it was a two piece that could explain what happened if not then ?????? well sorry agian and I hope you have the funds and time to get her back out soon.

I'll try and pull piston #5 up through the cylinder as soon as my doctor releases me. Thats a pretty good idea to try graemlins/thumbsup.gif . The heads I bought off of E-bay already set up, big mistake :mad: . The guy a bought them from said it had 10 degree locks, a new set of stainless valves. I don't know if they were supposed to be one or two peice. I had the heads checked out by my machinest, he said they should be fine. Thats the last major engine componet I buy off the net. $800 down the drain, live and learn :mad: . I'll go and get some more pics in the mourning and post them. Thanks alot for the input guys graemlins/beers.gif .

Chris

Ok guys here is the new pics. http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/cylinder13.JPG
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/cylinder57.JPG
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/cylinder1gash.JPG
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chris454ss1970/cylinder5gash.JPG
The first pic is cylinders 1 & 3. The second pic is cylinders 5 & 7. The third pic is a gash in the top of cylinder 1. The fourth pic is a gash in cylinder 5. Let me have your ideas. Thanks guys graemlins/beers.gif .

Chris

Sure looks like the intake valve was kissing the piston. Did you advance the cam after you mocked up the engine?

Thats not the kind of damage that is caused my hydrolocking an engine. I agree that I would look really close at the pistons and valves and check the clearance, and see if there are any groves or chunks out of the valve stem to show if the valve hung up in the guide. I had this happen once on a set of F*#D SVO heads about a mile into my test drive. Good luck

As for getting it out you should be able to get it tranny hooked up with the heads off. I have the same pan on my 70 and agree that its a bear. drop the trans cross member and it should come out nice and smooth

Looks like you are gonna have to Sleeve that cylinder so u dont have to bore out all 8 and u will just need to egt 1 spare piston to replace the busted one..

Chris,
Very hard to tell for sure by the pictures, but I also think the intake valves might have just been touching the pistons.

Are there any rub marks on your rockers from making contact with the retainers? The rockers rubbing the retainers will bounce the locks up and down untill they give or the groove on the valve stem rounds a bit dropping the valve.

that is my worst nightmare with the engine I just swapped in 3 months ago. :eek:

I'll bet the crank is bent, the cam is possibly bent, the block is distorted, and all the rest of the valves fatigued.

Get well soon, and dont rush yourself, you dont want to hurt yourself working in the shop!

I've been through my share of surgery as well, i know how you feel.

When I first took the roller rockers off I didn't see any strange marks on any of them. Zac did you get your motor off of e-bay? If so good luck with it. You can actually bend a crank Brian? I didn't know that you could. I guess take it to a machine shop to get it checked for that? Hopefully I can get the motor out next week but I'll wait and see what my doc says. I'm starting to feel pretty good over all. I have a few ruff days. Thanks for all the input and support graemlins/beers.gif .

Chris

Chris, I'll take a stab at this one.
In the pictures, it looks like your block does not have the notches ground in it for valve relief and clearance like the hi-po big blocks have. Hi-horsepower blocks are notched from the factory in the places where the valves approach the walls when they open.
The factory did this with 2.19 intakes and moderate lift cams to unshroud the valves and provide valve-to-block clearance. I always use the head gasket and scribe the notches, then relieve the block in that area to a depth of about .100".
If you're running a .680 lift cam and large valves, I'd bet a couple of intake valves made contact with the top edge of the bore. This would cause the gouge on the top edge of the cylinder, load the valve head sideways, snap it off, and drop it on top of the piston.
The pictures document the ensuing carnage that would result.
How's that for a guess?

Randy

Randy

Good call Randy,sure looks like intake valves were making contact with the cylinder walls!Wish you a speedy recovery in more ways than one! graemlins/waving.gif

Chris,
Yes you can bend a crank, i've seen even huge desiel cranks that are bent. It happens, especially after an abrupt STOP like what happens when you drop a valve.

I would definetly get it magged, if not replace it, it's very possibly cracked.

An abrupt stop can even distort the block to the point where it needs an align bore/hone.

I like Randys call on this and yes you can bend a crank, not as hard as it sounds just leaving one laying on its side for an extended period can bend it. You will want to check every component on this motor as i'm willing to bet there is alot more carnage than you think, "sorry" but you would hate to rebuild it and pop it again.

Randy is spot on. I've seen the exact failure before. I used to work at a machine shop that specialized in performance and I've seen two engines suffer this same failure almost immediately after startup. They were brought in to us for forensics afterwards.

Cranks will bend, but the causes are in order:
#1. Heat
#2. Abrupt stop (broken rod, etc)
#3. Being dropped.

I have heard the rumor that a crankshaft will bend if it is laid down over time. This is untrue from what I have seen with my eyes. At the before-mentioned machine shop, we had a Small Chevy crank set up on stands supporting the front and rear journals with a dial indicator on the center journal. In the 15+ years it has sat on those stands (with a mark to put it in the same position after you check OOR) it has not shown any signs of deflection. When a customer brought up that question, we would unveil the crankshaft and show them.

The block is standard bore and does not have valve relief's cut in the cylinders. The intake valves are 2.250". I wonder why the intakes didn't hit any of the other cylinders :confused: ? What Randy said makes alot of sense. I'm starting to think that I might as well find another short block. I know where I can get another one like this one for $250. Thanks for all the insights graemlins/beers.gif .

Chris

Chris,
It's possible the valves didn't hit solidly on the other cylinders or just lightly because of variance in bore spacing, variance in dowel location, slight valve positioning differences, etc.
That's why we use a bore-tru fixture for correcting bore location, a block-tru fixture for decking, and a lifter-tru fixture for correcting lifter positioning during the "blueprinting" procedure.

The block's probably all right but may need bored. This time, be sure to notch the top of the cyls. carefully. It's not very hard at all.
Good Luck!

Randy

Well the Doc finally gave me the Ok to go back to my pretty much normal activities graemlins/hurray.gif . I got over and managed to get my motor out. I made a couple of wrenches and was able to get to my other two converter bolts, finally. Got the motor on the stand and took the pan off. The piston with the hole in it looked good other than the hole. I did bend a rod on #2. Don't know why, everything looked good on top side. I haven't removed any rods and pistons yet, just the windage tray and oil pump. I wanted to take some pics, forgot to take my camera with me graemlins/clonk.gif . I'll post some pics tomorrow.

Chris

Chriss454ss1970, If you look closely you can see evidence that all of the valves have been hitting the pistons. Your other pistons have indentations where the exhaust valves have dimpled them about half way across the raised flat. The piston you are trying to run must be machined to clear a .680 roller cam. They are not relieved from the factory for more than about .500 lift and moderate duration (230 degrees). It also looks like the intakes have been hitting as there appears to be flat spots at the top of the intake valve reliefs.

It also appears from the pictures that your intake valves are hitting the top of the bores at the widest part of the valve. The block must be relieved to prevent this problem as is done on the factory high performance motors. The valves have hit everywhere possible.