We tried to fire up the beast tonight and didnt have any luck. Had a couple wiring leads off but fixed those. I dont know a whole lot about compression, but when I pulled out the #1 plug it sucked really good but when its supposed to push air out its really weak. I know my piston rings were set right I spent alot of time and researched it, My nieghbor is set on thinking my timing marks arent lined up right... I agree with him from the way things SOUND and act when cranking it over but when I think back I know they were dead on... The timing gear was an edelbrock true roller chain and gears, it has the 3 marks on it, I may have to look into that... Any input or thoughts...

or lash too tight?

We backed off the rockers LOTS and it still wasnt having it, still weak compression. When too tight or too loose.

whichever keyway you use, (square, circle, triangle) you must use the similar mark out near the edge of the gear as the "dot" to line up "dot-to-dot".

Tom

Nevermind, I was beaten to it.

from reading your previous posts if there's one bit of advice i can give you its to build an engine test stand and start your fresh motors out of the car. I've learned the hard way that it's much easier to fix things with the motor out of the car than when it's in it. saves your fenders from getting scratched up and your back muscles too. good luck.

It should be dot to dot, the circle marks.

Did it lite at all, maybe backfire thru the carb? Or just cranking and cranking?

Not enough information, but so far, too tight lash or out a tooth on the timing gears.

Its definately possible im off a tooth, thats what a few have said, but I swore it was dead on. No backfires through the carb but it is getting fuel just fine. At first my IGN wire to the distributor had juice when I turned the key once, but when I turned the key to start it there was no juice! My wiring is all screwy I dont know why, I hadnt touched it since the small block. But the Distributor IS getting spark now... I'll try everything I can the next couple days and load up on info from you guys, before tearing into the timing gears again, thats no fun...

How fast did the motor turn over when you went to start it? If it was A LOT faster than normal, your valve lash is too tight (ask me how I know!). If so, go through the procedure to adjust the lash again. If not, you most likely have timing issues. Check your distributor first to make sure it's on time (i.e. not 180* out).

Give us a little more info on how the motor reacted when you tried to start it. Did it backfire, just spin over quickly, cough or spudder?

Do a search on the quick and dirty cam timing trick. UDHarold's quick way of checking cam timing. That should tell you if the cam is installed wrong without doing anymore that pulling one valve cover. At least I think you can do it without pulling the manifold (I've never used it). But even if the manifold has to come off that's better than pulling the engine and removing the timing cover.

I'll look for it, that method sounds good. I'll definately need it, If my distributor was off 180 that wouldnt explain the compression being low would it? Well atleast all my cables are in the right order, theres a few things I can check without alot of light... It would be nice to diagnose the issue before tearing stuff down. I found one quick n dirty method but it said it no longer exists...

Nevermind I finally found! Still looking for other possibles though, thanks so far guys... we'll get her up ;) !

Pnut, you said:"It should be dot to dot, the circle marks."

OK, but you'll need to see with your own eyes that the keyway marked with a circle is the one actually on the key in the crank. there's a bunch of different ways to make a mistake here, a lot of guys miss this deal when first starting out on engine building.

Get the timing cover off, line it up, take a pic and post it up here.

Tom

I made a mistake once with a Edelbrock timing set for a BBC which became apparent when I was breaking rocker arms. Mine fired up fine but had valve train noise and when I would go to set the lash rocker arms would break! Turns out I didn't have the marks lined up right and when the piston hit the valve it would push the pushrod right through the rocker arm OUCH! Luckily no permanent damage done other than having to replace some rocker arms and one lifter along with another intake gasket set...The marks on the Edelbrock are very hard to see so you might want to check that out.

Good Luck

Marty

You can check the cam timing without anything fancy or without disassembly of the motor. First thing though, you need to verify your damper is lined up at TDC so check that first by inserting TDC stop and rotating the crank forward and backward, mark balancer at each point that aligns with TDC on the timing mark, then find the exact middle of the two marks. It should eb the timing mark on the balancer. (PS - remove all spark plugs first for easy turning).

Now turn crank in normal roatation until #1 exhaust valve just opens, then stop. Do no turn crank any more. Remove #1 intake rocker and measure distance pushrod is above pushrod guide as accurately as possible. I have used stacked feeler gauges, machinst rule, dial caliper to do this. Then rotate crank again in normal rotation unitl pushrod is risen additional .050, stop. Most likely you will be able to get the .050 intake open timing just by comparing the balancer timing mark against the degrees marked on the timing tab. Don't know your particular cam, but for instance if the .050 intake timing is 4 degrees BTDC, you should see the balancer timing line align with what would be 4 degrees advanced timing on the timing tab. You can do this a couple of times to verify. You can find the exhaust valve closing point @ .050 also fairly easy using this method to cross check.

This is why you always should take the time to degree the cam when installing. Takes all the guessing out of it later on.

Remember "dot-to-dot" puts the cam in #6 firing position ( 180 out).

get#1 piston up. remove distributorcap remember where the rotor is pointing(toward the #1 plug)or somewhere like right oppisite(180 out) pull distributor rotate 180 then tighten it .try it make sure your wiring on plugs are right. make sure you have good ingniction supply. read where you wanted to connect a fan to you ingniction wires on a different post.if it want start even after you rotate distributor a tad in different directions . try moving your plugwires over 1 hole.this is a shAdetree tech. dont blame me for the BOOK THAT EVERONE RECCOMENDED FOR YOUR FIRST BUILD.

Distributor being out or wiring to plugs will have nothing to do with no compression. Sure sounds to me like the cam timing is out of whack.

Phil, how long did you crank it while trying to start it? I am a little afraid that you may have taken all the lube off your cam lobes if you cranked it for a while trying to get it to start. After this saga, I would love to see you get it running with no problems, and not end up starting another I wiped a cam lobe thread.

Do see fuel spraying up out of your carb or can you feel compression with your hand over the carb while its cranking? If so you have your lash to tight. You said you loosened the rockers up, make sure you have them right before you try to start it again, you don't need loose pushrods beating on a new cam.

Good luck man, its frustrating when you get your hopes up and it doesn't run the first time, but you'll get it.
Jeff

Wouldn't a compression gauge give a little more info than your finger?

The easiest way to check cam timong is put the balancer on 0 (TDC) on the compression stroke, and then make sure that neither valve is open.
This assumes that you have the correct balancer and timing tab of course.

I'm reminded of a line from the old Saturday night Live....Jane Curtain to Steve Martin (Theodoric of York)
"Face it................................."
Good luck.

Ron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Supercharger/IMG_0204.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Supercharger/IMG_0205.jpg

Im not sure if its possible to tell if its lined up correctly by the keyway, its so hard to see the marks on the crank gear in these pics. Also the cam gear only has one mark right? Crank gear has three, these pictures arent the best do to the light but let me know what you guys see, im thinking its off pretty bad... I am concerned about the cam break in lube also..
:eek:

the keyway that's actually on the crank key, how is it marked? usually there's a triangle, square and circle. sometimes the top of the keyway itself is shaped like one of those three. then, compare that to the stamped mark that's straight up at 12:00 on the lower gear. they must be the same. I'm not sure from the pics.

Cam gear has only one mark. I wouldn't get too worried about the cam lube, no compression, no idling, OK.

Hang in there man. you've got more patience than most.

Tom

Yeah three marks, The crank keyway is on the bottom, the circle mark is at 12 O'Clock and the cam mark is at 6 O'Clock, they look like there lined up perfectly. Was I not supposed to use the circle on the crank gear?

Maybe I put the crank gear on wrong, the marks line up, but that wouldnt mean a thing if I used the wrong keyway.... 2 of them look rounded, and the 3rd keyway which I used is squared and "stock looking" the ones I used on small blocks. I used that because it fit the key right....

.

Will the compression change from when its turning over and running? With my finger in #1 spark plug hole it sucks in really good but when it pushing air out its lots less, I can get a guage to find out exactly what it's reading... im a little worried now though.

Just put the guage on it. A finger test is just to check for ANY compression at all. Sounds like you're feeling a tiny bit at least. But your finger isn't a standard of measurement. So the gauge will tell you how much that "little" bit you're feeling is in PSI.

The keyway should be about like this. http://webpages.charter.net/77cruiser/IMG_0205.jpg

Originally posted by pnutkemist:
Maybe I put the crank gear on wrong, the marks line up, but that wouldnt mean a thing if I used the wrong keyway.... Phil
I think you have used the wrong set of marks.
It looks like you used the flat or square slot & the round dot.
The crank key should be right where that empty slot is at about 2 o'clock.
Look at the top of the slot on the crank gear that you have over the crank key very closely.
It will either be flat, half round or pointed.
You want the slot on the crank gear to be the rounded one & you want to use the circle on the crank gear to line up with the dot on the cam gear.
The pointed one goes with the triangle mark & the flat one goes with the square mark
of the crank gear keyway.

What about this cheapie bad boy?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=39224

Ah! I knew it, well as of 45 minutes ago, someone said it would still fire though? It would just be retarded? Or with a fresh engine it would not? All I know is it's definately "off" This would change the compression and affect starting dramatically wouldnt it?

Barely beat you by a min. Mike. ;)

Phil,
You have to use the correct set of marks & the crank key has to be positioned at 2 o'clock when the timing is correct.
You cannot use the square slot with the round dot.
Look at Jim's picture. This is where your crank key has to be. You cannot see 4 degrees advance or retard.
You are WAY OFF & yes this will effect the compression.
Hopefully you have not bent any valves :(

what Mike said. you need to get the cam straightened out, then run a compression test to see if any of the valves are bent.

loosen all the rockers up till the nut is at least 1/2" away from the rocker ball or trunnion. I don't know if you have roller rockers or not. then you can work the cam and crank into the right positions. You need to pull the crank gear off and install it on the keyway with the rounded top. then turn it so the circle dot is straight up. the keyway will be at about 2:00. then you can line up the cam gear so they're dot-to-dot.

unfortunately, it will probably be a miracle if you haven't bent any valves. As soon as you get the cam timing fixed, run a compression check. don't go any further till that's done and OK.

Tom

Tom

I agree there is a good possibility that some valves may be bent.

BUT, I'd just put the cam/crank gear in the right spot and run a compression test on ALL cylinders. If you've got one that leaks down like crazy, you've got a bent valve.

If not, I'd run the bastard!! :D Or maybe I'm a real shadetree...

Shhhew, what a mess! Well I'll straighten all this out tomorrow and get a gear puller and put it on the right way, get everything back together and then check the compression on each valve. Firs things first, I sure hope I hope have to pull the heads off, but if so... then theres nothing else to do but fix her up again. I'll fill you guys in tomorrow... thanks for all the help!!!

Phil,

Please don't take this wrong as I mean to cause you no more strife thatn you are already inflicting on yourself, but why in the world will you not tkae the 20 minutes (30 minutes max) to verify the cam timing?? You can do this right now by simply reinstalling your balancer and the timing tab - even with the timing cover removed. Costs nothing in tools or parts and will tell you everything you need to know. Once verified you can go on to readjust valves and get cranking compression. FYI, I got a very inexpensive yet effective compression tester at Sears that I have had for 10 years - for as much as I use it, it works great.

you definately have the cam timing wrong. I just put my cam back in tonight and the crank keyway is at 2 o'clock position and the cam dot is at 6 o'clock.

It is your best bet to pull everything apart man...i made the same mistake and tried to pretend it didnt happen. wiped a cam lobe, bent pushrods, metal shavings tore up ALL my bearings, also found broken pieces from one of my piston skirts... this has all come back to haunt me as my oil pressure finally dropped and i had misc. noises.
Pulled the motor yesterday and disasembled everything and pressure washed every piece with soap and water. You dont want to have to pull this thing in a couple weeks and find destruction.
I am a rookie (22 years old) and Im sure everyone has to learn the hard way...and i AM learning.

Just fix the cam timing and then check your compression. if compression is way low, pull the heads... process of elimination

Originally posted by GRN69CHV:
Phil,

Please don't take this wrong as I mean to cause you no more strife thatn you are already inflicting on yourself, but why in the world will you not tkae the 20 minutes (30 minutes max) to verify the cam timing?? You can do this right now by simply reinstalling your balancer and the timing tab - even with the timing cover removed. Costs nothing in tools or parts and will tell you everything you need to know. Once verified you can go on to readjust valves and get cranking compression. FYI, I got a very inexpensive yet effective compression tester at Sears that I have had for 10 years - for as much as I use it, it works great. =
Phil,
I am going to have to disagree with this advice.
The cam is off period.
When the cam gear dot is straight down the crank key has to be at 2 o'clock.
Once you get this correct then you can start checking cam timing if you like but the more you play around turning the engine over the more damage you can do.
As Tom said, you will be very lucky if you did not bend any valves.

Soo,,,
Back off all the rockers
Remove the cam gear & chain
Turn the crank until the key is at approximately the 2 o'clock position
Remove the crank gear & reinstall it with the "curved or half round slot over the crank key
The dot or circle will now be about at the 12 o'clock position on the crank gear.
reinstall the cam gear with these two dots or circles lined up.
Readjust your valves & take a compression test or see if you can have a friend with a leak down tester come by & do a leak test.
If all cylinders have compression, go back to starting your engine.

I REPEAT DO NOT BE TURNING THE ENGINE OVER UNTIL YOU HAVE LOOSENED ALL YOUR ROCKER ARMS FIRST

Mike,

I had not read all the responses where later on in the thread he disclosed that the crank keyway was pointing down - pays to read everything first, comment second.

Point is though, he can and should check the cam install once he gets the crank/cam sprocket relationship figured out.

Pnuttenchemissttt,

Sorry for your confusion. Don't feel bad though.
I was used to putting stock motors together and there is only one mark on stock gears. Can't go wrong. Second time I put my motor together I forgot about the multiple marks on the performance cam gears. I did exactly the same thing you did. Sorry to say I bent every intake valve in the motor about .010
Might have been ok, but I replaced them any way.

Good luck
Dave

What should the compression guage read? I am going to try and pick one up tonight. Im going to get the gears lined up first, I know where to start... Lets pray for those poor valves :eek: or actually what should the guage NOT read, what means trouble..

several things can affect the reading seen on the gauge. What you're are really interested in is a comparison between the cylinders. you want them to all be the same. 160-200 is a nominal starting point. if one or more are low, bent valves.

Tom

Phil,

If you do discover you have some bent valves, seeing as all you have been through, I have a nice set of stock 2.06 BBC intakes you are welcome to. Good luck.

Ohhhh Nice, I'll know tonight smile.gif
Thanks for all the help guys. I should get alot done tonight.

might be easier to just do a leak down test on it ... IF you have an air compressor

Phil I just have to say you seem to have a knack for doing things the hard way but you keep on going like the freakin Eveready bunny.You are more laid back after a disaster than I am when things go smooth. Good luck dude, you are due for a good luck run.

Phil,

Heck, I've always had a nack for doing things the hard way also. When you don't have anyone near to help you, you learn by trying it. I've made my share of mistakes, but I don't make the same mistake twice. As Grn69chv offered, I also have a stock set (8) of 2.06 BBC intakes and four exhaust valves that you are welcome too. Good luck on getting that beast running.

Fred.

I might need those valves! Good thing though, I got my timing marks lined up perfectly, the compression guage I got doesnt fit, its a pro products the threads arent long enough to catch my year heads I guess... whatever, but the finger test, SO MUCH BETTER. Of course I'll do a real compression test tomorrow when I get a better guage. A couple of you might find out sooner than others when im knocking on your email asking for those valves, lets hope not... tongue.gif

True though I do have a huge knack for doing things the difficult way, but with me as well... I dont USUALLY ever make the same mistake twice.

You'll have it ironed out very soon. This has been a great education. Good luck on the compression readings. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I may have some valves for you also if needed...

I had the same problem with my guage not fitting. heres is the best solution... buy, at any auto place, 'spark plug defoulers' (usually comes with (2)) for BBC. This will screw right onto the guage and has long threads to fit into the head.

TRY IT

Bubba

Phil..hope all goes well and the valves aren't bent..as Bob said you are due for a good luck run graemlins/thumbsup.gif