Well Ive got about 3/4" to go. Ive tried most methods i know of and have used before with close to no luck, it took 2 hours to get this far and its quite painful smile.gif

Using a 2x4 on the front of it and using a large hammer, it goes nowhere! Its far enough in to try to use the bolt method, trying to tighten it, but obviously the balancer will turn and I found no way to keep the balancer from turning, I used screw drivers, wood, rachets, im hopeless! Theres gotta be something easier im missing here.

Im too sore and its kind of late for pounding noises coming from my garage, so a quiet method would be golden right now!

well i wouldnt run that motor . you can safely call it junk . ? come on hammering on a balancer . really now you work at tognottis performance parts and all you know how to do is beat your balancer on with a hammer ./ maybe you just pulllin everyones leg?. any ways your thrust bearing is trash

Pounding on a balancer is a BBBBAAAADDD idea! Your thrust bearing and balancer really don't appreciate it. Are you sure it hasn't seated already? If not, go beg barrow or steal an install tool. Heck autozone has them on their loaner tool program now. In a bind I've used pieces of allthread with a nut and washer. If you have a problem with it spinning with the tool (or allthread) use the handle of a hammer or something thru the flexplate. Just be sure it's not going to bend your flexplate now. ;)
Good luck with the rest of the build! graemlins/beers.gif

Looks like motown beat me to it. I doub't you've done any damage to your thrust bearing, most of that has been dispelled as an old wives tale, but be sure to check that balancer out real well before you give it the final button up, and like I said, get the tool!

Phil,
First of all, you can not & will not hurt the thrust bearing by pounding on the damper,,
I don't know how this stuff gets started but it seems if enough people write it enough times it becomes a truth graemlins/sad.gif

Now, that said,, you should never beat the damper on, it ain't good for the damper but I will repeat this again,,it will not hurt the damn thrust bearing although I agree completly with the above that this ain't the way to install the damper. :(

Using a block of wood & a hammer was the accepted way of installing a damper about 40 years ago before GM started drilling the crank on 283's & all that held them on was the press fit but this is no longer the case,,, don't beat on the damper, it can destroy it,, plus on a rat it is almost impossible to install a damper without the installation tool as the crank is bigger in diameter & takes a lot more pressure to get it on than a small block.

Go rent or buy the tool.

Well people get pissed when people try the backyard ways of doing things. It says in the chevy book to use a 2x4, it isnt "reccomended" but theres a method they go over to finish driving it over the crank. I agree though no beating, I only gave it a couple blows over the wood to finish driving it in, and no go, so i quit and came inside. Yeah yeah Tognotti's Shnognotti's... I'll hit up autozone tomorrow and get there install tool, I wouldnt as far as saying its junk now, but umm... yeah no more beating!

Aftermarket cranks and aftermarket balancers sometimes don't fit and the balancer may need to be honed to the proper ID.
* Check the dimensions.
* Get it fitted if necessary.
* Use the proper tool!.

When you use the tool, if it is still really tight, try a little shot of WD-40 on the threads of the tool (obviously not the threads going into the crank).

I bought my install tool from Competition Products for $20

Hey Mike"Wolfplace" wasn't it common practice to "set" the thrust clearance buy hitting the nose with a BFH? Just seem to remember that from the old days.

I had to have my balancer opened up a little. It was BHJ and the crank was an Eagle 4340. Even after having it worked on, it was still a pain getting it on.

---Chris

If you are close enough to use a bolt to finish it up, what I have done is put two longer bolts in the holes that hold the pulley, use a pry bar to hold against the bolts as you tighten it up. This will keep the crank from turning. A good straight push on the balancer and it might go on with ease. If that is the balancer that came off that crank it should go back on. Make sure both sufaces are rust free, light oil on the inside and outside of balancer would help. Mark

I just went through this installing a pioneer balancer on my 400. I couldn't get it on with the install tool. I actually broke the fitting on the tool. At first it looked like the crank key was burred and was holding it back. Replaced the key, same thing, broke the tool. I finally smartened up and measured inside diameter of the balancer and outside of crank. Even heating the balancer did not bring it close to the crank. I used a brake hone on the balancer until it was still undersized but would work when heated.

Make darn sure the balancer is on straight or no amount of pounding or tightening of an install tool will budge it. You might want to pull it back off and start again with the install tool.

I take it you didn't bother to try and find someone experience to help with the assembly process as several of us have recommended over your last many posts???

I've got a few comments in my head, but will refrain. All I can really say is your risking damaging or blowing up what ever $$$ investment in this engine due to lack of experience on assembly and your not willing to find help locally or pay someone to do the assembly for you. There's alot of fine detail stuff that needs attention and I am afraid you have or will likely miss these details.

I will say this...remove the balancer with the proper puller tool, debur the inside balancer keyway corners of sharp edges, go over the crank snout to remove any burrs, coat the inside of the balancer & crank snout with anti-seaze to help installation, and coat the threads of the installer with grease...make sure the tool has a thrust bearing to make install easier. You'll need a very large combination wrench or a very large adjustable to turn the install tool nut.

Lastly, DO NOT USE THE CRANK BOLT TO TRY AND FINISH PULLING THE BALANCER ON...all you'll do is pull the threads out of the crank and we'll have another post on how to repair the crank threads :rolleyes: .

Please, do US and YOURSELF a favor and get help from someone experienced close to you to finsish this assembly up and have them go oever EVERYTHING you have done and look for any missed steps or mistakes :eek: graemlins/clonk.gif

If that balancer is the one from the engine then there is something wrong other than putting it on improperly. I agree with others to recheck your key and tolerances.

If it's not the same one make sure you have the right one. Beating on the harmonic balancer after dynamically balancing an engine is a very bad idea.

If your tolerances are correct and/or it came off the crank and the key is sitting properly there should be no reason you can't drive that on.

You'd have to do some serious cranking to mess up the crank threads but that's possible.

I agree. Take it off and recheck everything and do it properly.

Also they often go on more easily than they come off. So if it takes a great deal of effort to get it on you may have even more trouble getting it off someday.

No its an aftermarket, 10K RPM SFI Pro Products 8" I think I will pull it and start it again w/ the tool. Those little tools, Ive only used pullers, never had a balancer this tough to get on. With the install tools, they keep the crank from spinning right? Im going to autozone after work. Or Kragen, whatever.

If you have your pistons in it should take some effort to turn your engine over. Not a great deal but some. Your balancer should go on without the engine turning IMO. If your crank spins too easily I'd be worried about incorrect piston/ring tolerances, wrong mains yada.

Originally posted by pnutkemist:
No its an aftermarket, 10K RPM SFI Pro Products 8" I think I will pull it and start it again w/ the tool. Those little tools, Ive only used pullers, never had a balancer this tough to get on. With the install tools, they keep the crank from spinning right? Im going to autozone after work. Or Kragen, whatever. Since this is an aftermarket damper there is a strong likelihood that it will need to be honed to fit your crank. This is especially true if you're using an aftermarket crankshaft as they may not be held to the same tolerances as a factory piece. If you have an old damper that was used on the crank that is in the engine then take the old and new dampers to a machine shop and get them to measure the ID of both. The new one will probably have a smaller ID than the old one. Have the new one honed to the ID of the old damper. If you've never ran a damper on this crank then you will need to measure the OD of the crankshaft snout and have the new damper honed to the manufacturers recommended press fit clearance relative to the crankshaft snout measurement. Been there, done it, got the machining bill. The directions that came with your new damper may even state this. Ain't this fun :D

Nooo not fun smile.gif Yeah I'll have to check all this stuff when I get home. The old balancer came off in about 4 pieces so that got trashed with alot of parts , this engine had nothing but junk on it when I got it. Well I'll pick up the tool and give it a shot tonight if its a no go I'll be checking into getting it honed, or whatever needs to be done.

So how do I measure the crank snout? Im willing to bet I dont have what I need! My machine guy would probably know? This thing shouldve gone on last night, as I said before though I'll try it tonight....

Originally posted by pnutkemist:
Well I'll pick up the tool and give it a shot tonight if its a no go I'll be checking into getting it honed, or whatever needs to be done. Phil,....by all means, get the tool, but first, you need to check the dimensions of both your crank snout and your balancer to see if it is even right to begin with. Don't "give it a shot tonight" and if it won't go then "check into getting it honed". Check your dimensions first!

Looky here>>> Damper install notes (http://www.professional-products.com/Damper_Instructions_Gen.pdf) They list the correct tolerances for you near the bottom of the pdf file.
You are looking at something like a 1.6000 crank and a 1.5985 ID damper. So you would have a .0015" interference fit. Check the size and height of the keys you are using also.

you failed to mention the size of the hammer,i think this needs a bigger one,try a 20lb sledge hammer graemlins/clonk.gif

well contrary to some,s opinion. i can show you someone i know who took a 2 1/2 pound sludge hammer and a 2x4 beat on a balancer split his thrust bearing from hitting it so hard and bent the snout of a gm forged crank... stay away from my motor with that hammer ...lol just kidding. graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/clonk.gif i know i can get this darn thing on graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/clonk.gif :D hey since you a home town boy i couldnt resist the notion to razz you a lil. no hard feelings graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I put my factory balancer back on a factory crank with little trouble. Maybe i am just lucky. Oiled the crank snout and inside of balancer, then used a large rubber mallet and only beat on the inside of the balancer just to get it on. I then took the crank bolt and pulled it on the rest of they way, it really wasn't hard at all. I didn't have the oil pan on yet it yet so i put a block of wood between one of the crank counterweights and pulled it right on there... When i went to torque down the balancer bolt i actually had to pull a little harder on the bolt than i did the balancer to get it torqued to spec... Like i said maybe i am just lucky, and i looked at my thrust bearing afterwards, no cracks, seemed to be fine...

Daniel

20lb Sledge! Dream on =) Im not that bad. Thanks for the link Jim, I printed it up. Whats the best tool to use for accurate measurment?

not 20 lb 2 1/2 pounder

No Vegadan said a 20lb! Wise Archer! ;)
A Caliper wouldnt be precise enough to measure would it? Micrometer or something?

You could mic the seated area of the crank where it will sit and the ID of your balancer and let us know what you get. You also don't want to get your balance off although just removing a small amount of material from the ID of the balancer should not matter. Changing balancers might though.

You might get by with the cheapie digital caliper that Kragen had on sale for 14.99. it's pretty nice actually. I have a bore gauge but I'm not sure I can do <2" or not. I have the install tool as well.

Pull it off first and tell us how ugly it is and see what the keys look like :D Please tell me this is a joke right :D

a caliper that measures to thousandths would be ok. smile.gif

I use an air chisel to install dampers at work. Of corse it is mostly warrenty stuff. Never hurt any thing.
edit: actually it is an air hammer

Originally posted by iwantachevelle:
I use an air chisel to install dampers at work. Of corse it is mostly warrenty stuff. Never hurt any thing. :eek:

Ok got some test results here. The pro products sheet says Crankshaft snout to be 1.5995/1.6005 and the bore on the damper to be 1.598/1.599

My readings were a little touching with this meter, its a digital but I got a couple different readings: Crank snout was 1.5999-1.6005 & damper bore is 1.586-1.5925

Hmmm, not going to cut it is it?

If so, does it have to be machined or is a small enough margin to wrap some sand paper around the snout and give it a couple of rounds?

Phil, I think you'll have to have the balance honed to a larger size so it fits properly. I wouldn't sand on the crankshaft. When you install it next time apply a dab of grease or assembly lube on your seal so it doesn't burn up when you fire it for the first time, and also put a little silicone on the keyway slot before installing the balance--sometimes oil will leak past the keyway if this isn't done. Tell the machine shop what the crank measures and they'll be able to hone the balancer for a proper fit. Bob

Like baddbob said, get the balancer honed. Go back and re-read this post and re-read the instructions in the link I sent you. You measured your crank and it is dead on! Why would you want to sand that down? :mad: Give your damper to a machinst, tell him what your crank measured and come back when he is finished honing it. You appear to be in a rush. Slow down!

Gave my machine shop a call, and talked to him about my measurments, he said it sounded like where it should be. Even he told me use a sledge and 2x4! I still don't totally approve of the method, but sometimes thats what it takes graemlins/boring.gif Anyways, Im going to greese it up and use an install kit, done properly and some muscle it SHOULD go on graemlins/angry.gif
tongue.gif

Remember to pray to your favorite saint when you wing that thing up above 4000RPM. :D

What! Errrr, different ways from everyone, the shop said mount that bad boy on. Ive driven on some beat to hell balancers (SBC) and never had problems, I dont hit the track either. You think this sounds bad still Enrique?

I installed an ATI a few months ago on my 454. I used the install tool and it would go on a little then jam. Took it back off and used a brake hone in a drill. Took about 20 min of honing and then the install tool got it on. No hammer involved. smile.gif

There's nothing wrong with a rubber mallet and GENTLE tapping on the center to get it started with anti-seize on the balancer and oil on the crank.

Your tolerances seem ok. It's also OK to put a plastic hammer handle and wedge the crank counterweight against the pan wall to hold the crank.

A zillion on these are put on with air. Just turn the PSI down and your wrench down. In your case I think a 1/2 inch rachet would be better.

It should go on but if not then get a hone from autozone and carefully and slowly take a little off and try it repeatedly until it goes on. You should be able to drive it on with the proper tool or get it on enough to get a few threads going and tighten it down slowly and gently with the end bolt.

If you think you've beaten on this thing too much then tear it all down, get a new balancer, rebalance your rotating assembly and start over. I know. Not fun but it's easier the next time. And it's worth it knowing your engine will last a long time.

Phil,
Your freakin damper is undersized and the crank is right on. Take it to machine shop and get it honed to where it should be. Why beat on a good piece. You seem like a good guy through your posts but time and again people tell you the correct way to do things and you blow it off. I still remember your small block oil pan fiasco, carb problems, cam issues. Do yourself a favor and do it right the first time. I hope not but I have a nagging feeling that you will be posting about problems with this engine too.
Good luck.

Phil, its been mentioned too to heat the balancer before installing. It does help considerably. Good Luck graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Phil, doesn't sound too bad to me, then again, all three of the SBC engines I helped build/install had the balancers go on just fine with the tool, so I've got nothing to worry about. tongue.gif

Really though, ask PDQ what happens when you hammer balancers on. Paul is the shadetree type of guy, but he's told the story time and again about his "junk" 301 that would spit dampners off after a few 7000RPM runs. Then he'd go to the junkyard, knock off a dampner with a hammer, and put it onto the 301, make some high RPM runs again and go through another balancer, etc. (might have exaggerated a little, but that's what I remember him saying).

Keep in mind, the 301/302 engines are known for their High RPM abilities, and 7000RPM is like cakewalk for those engines, piston speed isn't all that high. So form your own conclusions.

Would I run the dampner you've been hammering on? If cash was tight, I'd hone it and slap it on, but I wouldn't put a hammer near it again.

Maybe it is just me, but I'd rather not have clench my teeth and tighten my buttcheeks when the engine is revving.

I have no trouble revving my 355 up to 5500-6000RPM on with the stock-rebuilt bottom end, stock bolts and 2bolt mains, stock dampner off my 305. But it is balanced and the dampner was installed "the right way". . . . not that my engine makes any power up there, lol.

Well you know whats odd to me, is the bore is all the same or it should be. It goes on half way on, so the bore should be fine. (on the damper) There is almost an inch to go. I need a longer bolt so I can drive it in tomorrow. I re-tapped the hole because it looked like hell, I was never a fan of fine thread either :rolleyes:

And oh yeah! Zwede: I picked up a brake hone tonight also. Glad to hear that worked I was about to do it.

Well just remember that the electronic calipers probably have some "play" in them as opposed a mic. (not that I'm knocking the calipers, you're probably using the same ones I have, and that's all I've got for measuring too.)

Originally posted by pnutkemist:
If so, does it have to be machined or is a small enough margin to wrap some sand paper around the snout and give it a couple of rounds? theres a lot of guys who know a lot about the right way to do stuff here. having done my share of questionable stuff before i'll just add that if your gonna cheat and sand something. always, always, screw with the cheaper piece. this way if and when you make it usless. it dosen't cost near as much to redo. not preaching, just recounting my experiances with a lot of choppers while i still drank way more then i do now. good luck

Just installed a Performance Balancer on a 327. I drilled the crank and polished the shaft. Tough install, tapped/beat center of balancer and alternatly tightened center bolt. Took 2 hours but I am confident IT WILL NOT FALL OFF. Torqued bolt to 65# and all seems well. These motors are alot tougher then we sometimes give um cedit for...my 327 has to survive 7k occassionally....

Holy conjuring of an old thread! Dang!

Just installed a Performance Balancer on a 327. I drilled the crank and polished the shaft. Tough install, tapped/beat center of balancer and alternatly tightened center bolt. Took 2 hours but I am confident IT WILL NOT FALL OFF. Torqued bolt to 65# and all seems well. These motors are alot tougher then we sometimes give um cedit for...my 327 has to survive 7k occassionally....

I really don't see much reason to brag about beating on a performance damper??
This is not the correct way to do this no matter what we did 50 years ago with the stock stuff ;)

So... I wonder if the guy ever got the balancer on. lol

IIRC, it was the outer ring of a Professional Products dampener that exited the engine bay on one episode of Pinks...my guy tells me he'd rather see me run a Pioneer stock type than one of those Professional Products pieces...

Advance and Auto Zone have loaner tools to install balancers, I have stripped a crank in the bolt threads before installing a balancer the wrong way.

that remover/installer is one of my best investments as far as tools. i have removed/installed many balancer over the years. a freind of mine bought a new one and put a impact air tool on it and striped the threads off the new tool. i never use an air tool on mine, and i slop on that nasty silver anti-seeze all over the threads EVERY TIME i use it.

my 2nd best tool is my MIG welder.

IIRC, it was the outer ring of a Professional Products dampener that exited the engine bay on one episode of Pinks...my guy tells me he'd rather see me run a Pioneer stock type than one of those Professional Products pieces...

You mean my famous (or infamous depending on how you look at it) picture that keeps making the rounds :D

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17531#17531

that remover/installer is one of my best investments as far as tools. i have removed/installed many balancer over the years. a freind of mine bought a new one and put a impact air tool on it and striped the threads off the new tool. i never use an air tool on mine, and i slop on that nasty silver anti-seeze all over the threads EVERY TIME i use it.

my 2nd best tool is my MIG welder.

a big X2

Aftermarket cranks and aftermarket balancers sometimes don't fit and the balancer may need to be honed to the proper ID.
* Check the dimensions.
* Get it fitted if necessary.
* Use the proper tool!.
x2 :cool:

I take it you didn't bother to try and find someone experience to help with the assembly process as several of us have recommended over your last many posts???

I've got a few comments in my head, but will refrain. All I can really say is your risking damaging or blowing up what ever $$$ investment in this engine due to lack of experience on assembly and your not willing to find help locally or pay someone to do the assembly for you. There's alot of fine detail stuff that needs attention and I am afraid you have or will likely miss these details.

I will say this...remove the balancer with the proper puller tool, debur the inside balancer keyway corners of sharp edges, go over the crank snout to remove any burrs, coat the inside of the balancer & crank snout with anti-seaze to help installation, and coat the threads of the installer with grease...make sure the tool has a thrust bearing to make install easier. You'll need a very large combination wrench or a very large adjustable to turn the install tool nut.

Lastly, DO NOT USE THE CRANK BOLT TO TRY AND FINISH PULLING THE BALANCER ON...all you'll do is pull the threads out of the crank and we'll have another post on how to repair the crank threads :rolleyes: .

Please, do US and YOURSELF a favor and get help from someone experienced close to you to finsish this assembly up and have them go oever EVERYTHING you have done and look for any missed steps or mistakes :eek: graemlins/clonk.gif

Fluidampr recommends anti-seize .

Correct me if I'm wrong but with a steel one can't you turn the oven on low and put it in there for about a hour and it should slip on

Correct me if I'm wrong but with a steel one can't you turn the oven on low and put it in there for about a hour and it should slip on
A friend of mine recently did something like this....
He filled a ziplock bag with ice & sat it on the crank snout while he heated the balancer up with a heat gun,not the whole balancer but the hole that slides over the crank. He had the heat gun on 'high' for a while & when he figured it was hot enough he pulled the ice bag & the balancer slid almost all the way on,then he used the installation tool for the last bit while it was still hot.

I always use a brake cylinder hone. Sounds like a neat trick though(heat gun)