Anyone know why they called the M-22 trannys RockCrushers? Ive always wanted to know that. Which are rarer M-21's or M-22's?

the low angle cut gears in the M22 make a whining noise while driving that can be heard in the car. thats why they call it the rock crusher. the M22 is rarer and quite valuable.

My father had a '69 SS396 Nova w/a M-22. When rolling at idle in gear, it sounded like someone had a mini cement mixer under the car.

He always told me it was because of the 'square-cut gears'.

The M-22 aren't "square-cut", but rather cut at a lesser angle than the M-20 and -21!

And the strongest cut is straight cut fine spur gears but then she would howl like a cheap timing gear drive!!

I think Jerico's and some race Top-loader's may be straight cut??

pdq67

Originally posted by bluerebl:
My father had a '69 SS396 Nova w/a M-22. When rolling at idle in gear, it sounded like someone had a mini cement mixer under the car.

He always told me it was because of the 'square-cut gears'. If the car made noise under those conditions it was NOT the transmission gears at all never mind that the gears are not "square cut" In neutral the gears have no load on them they are simply passing by eachother with no drive force on the tooth surfaces. No load on the gears will not produce audiable noise inside the car.

Doug Nash / Richmond makes a straight cut "race only" 5 Speed and all the Richmond 5 Speeds have straight cut reverse gears. If you know anyone with a Richmond 5 Speed ask them to back up the car and listen: that is the sound of loaded straight cut gears. Now ask them to put the car in neutral and let it roll a little distance going backwards...no noise. Oh this urban legend stuff is really amazing.

oman, he said rolling at idle "in gear" as you captured in the quote.

As I recall, Tom Parsons addressed this. The gist of it was that the low helical angle on the gears helped to remove some thrust that forced the gear cluster hard into the back of the case, leading to problems with the case under hard use on the conventional M20/M21. The trade-off was high gear noise like a truck transmission. Also depending on the year, the M22 added upgrades that were added in later years to the M20/M21, e.g. drain plug where the M20/M21 did not. I don't want to put words in his mouth though, so maybe he could chime in. Actually, try the search function.

I have heard info similar to Cam's...

The way I understand it: The M22 was originally intended for road/circle track racing, where both upshifts and downshifts under power would force the gears into the case... A side benefit was that the gear teeth are thicker (in cross-section) due to the helical angle of the gears...

What's really funny is my new G-force 5 speed with pure straight cut gears (no synchros either!) is quieter than my old Doug Nash street 5 speed was! Except for 4th...the gear set I picked is a little noisy there..but still not bad.


JIM

Originally posted by LeoP:
oman, he said rolling at idle "in gear" as you captured in the quote. Whoops not enough coffe this AM ...my mistake but I still wonder if they make that much noise w/O a driven load on the car? Seems that rolling along with the engine off would require some high speeds to make a lot of noise. I might try that just for the hell of it.

The 33 degree tooth helix angle does indeed whine in gear. under load. I sorta hate it in my Vette but there are days I sorta hate my Vette so I guess that makes sense. The other car (GM A-Body) with steel floors is OK with the Richmond..not objectionalble at all really.

Years ago 60 or 69 I knew a guy with an M33 in a Vette. He lived near my home and I could hear it growl whine its way home on quiet summer knnights when the windows were open? Remember when ya could leave the windows open and not choke on the crappy air?????

540Hotrod What car is this in? Are you running the G-Force 5 speed on the street? If so how do you like it? Anything special needed to install? flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, ect.

I put a M-22 gear set in my last 67ss and this winter I am debating putting an M-22 gear set in my 66ss or the M-21 back. I wasn't planning on it but I tore my trans. up Sunday. All I had was 4th gear, good thing I had 4:10 gears, made it home with no problems. I didn't think the M-22 in my 67 was that noisy.

Ron Long....

Yes, I have a GF5R in my '67 Vette. It has a pump gas 540 that dyno'd at 825HP@7400 rpm. Good heads!

Nothing really big to using it on the street, it will bolt directly in place of a Richmond or Nash. There are a gazzilion options when you order it as far as what input or output you want etc etc.

I have the "clutch" version. The only difference in the trans is the sliders. The "clutchless" ones are two piece with springs holding them together. While actually engaged in 1st, you pull back to engage 2nd. For an instant the two are both engaged and then the 1st gear slider is pulled away from the gear as the second gear one engages. Really pretty neat, but you can't downshift. Only goes one way. You can have it built as a "semi clutchless" where you can shift with no clutch from 1st to 2nd and then to 3rd. Then you use clutch for 4th and 5th. That would be fine, but again, in traffic you can't get back down past 3rd. Could be a PITA. I almost did it anyway, but they told me about the springs on sliders won't last long on the street. Have to disassemble to replace. I'm too lazy!

Anyway, the trans shifts like butter at 7000+ rpm.It takes a little practice to get the hang of street driving, but it's no big deal. If you've ever driven an 18 wheeler it's the same deal.

If you have room for the Vertigate type shifter that would be cool. I have the regular Long H-pattern in my car 'cause I wanted to use stock console. I say regular, but in reality they custom built it for my application when I told them what I was doing and I was actually intending on banging gears. They added reinforcements and used a Winston (Nextel?) Cup shifter to build it on.

If you call them, talk to Ash.He actually builds the 5 speeds and is the salesman too. He and Mike Long are fantastic and their customer service is unbelievable! Tell 'em hi from JIM!!


JIM

Do the Tremecs make similar growling noise, are are they pretty quiet?

If you call them, talk to Ash. He actually builds the 5 speeds and is the salesman too. He and Mike Long are fantastic and their customer service is unbelievable! Tell 'em hi from JIM!!


JIM [/QB][/QUOTE]


Hey Jim how goes the battle. Never knew you were over on this board. A quick question......Can I assume Mike Long and Ash are at "Long" Shifters?

I really wanna lose that 3.27 low gear and load in a 3.0n first in one of my transmissions. I have the normal mundane plain vanilla slider and brass ring 5 Speed Street Nash transmission. I cannot seem to get a straight answer from Richmond about transferabiltiy of the 3.0n first gear gear set into my trans.

Cannot afford much more than a pair of gears right now and the 3.0n first comes outta the road race unit. Are the road race units syncro combatible with my Street 5 Speed???? Said differently are the road race unit ratio gear sets a drop in into my Street Transmission???

Long obviously has a relationship with Richmond ...doe they sell parts and could they help me out on this????

Oman

Yes, G-Force is a subsidiary of Long..the folks who make the shifters as well as tons of aerospace stuff etc.

Try S&K speed for some straight answers on what will transfer in the Richmonds. I've used them for parts before. I don't have their number right now but I think their in NY or Jersey somewhere. Richmond actually recommends them. There is also Wade's transmissions in Dallas.

I spoke with Liberty last year and they make drop in gears and pieces for the Richmonds out of better steels so maybe they have drop in sets. You can usually change the "head set" and rearrange the trans ratios with just a change of two gears. Liberty was working on a complete new trans at the time.

Yes, there are several of us Vette dudes hanging out over here..'69 Nox rat, Bence 13 13, ML67 etc etc....


JIM

Originally posted by 540Hotrod:
Yes, G-Force is a subsidiary of Long..the folks who make the shifters as well as tons of aerospace stuff etc.

Try S&K speed for some straight answers on what will transfer in the Richmonds. I've used them for parts before. I don't have their number right now but I think their in NY or Jersey somewhere. Richmond actually recommends them. There is also Wade's transmissions in Dallas.

I spoke with Liberty last year and they make drop in gears and pieces for the Richmonds out of better steels so maybe they have drop in sets. You can usually change the "head set" and rearrange the trans ratios with just a change of two gears. Liberty was working on a complete new trans at the time.

Yes, there are several of us Vette dudes hanging out over here..'69 Nox rat, Bence 13 13, ML67 etc etc....


JIM Don't know that I need the killer parts you mountain motor guys require for your cars considering my diminutive 454. Good to know that there might be other parts sources though. I have two Richmonds which leaves me fairly well invested in the darn things.

Do you have any names at Liberty or at S&K or G-Force? Never hurts to have a name to call for someone who has been a good source of straight answers. You mention Ash and the other fellow contacts inside the other vendors would be GREAT. I can find phone numbers easy but contacting someone with a BRAIN is sometimes just luck. Not the best way to determine what needs to be done. When ya call in with "I know Jim in Houston" and he recommendid I talk to ....." it is always better than takin pot luck with who ever answers.

I like this board better than "That other one" more willingness to innovate and try other things / combos / mods. Did not know ML was over here or some of those other guys eather.

Let me know on any G-Force or Liberty contacts. That data would be greatly appreciated. If you want shoot me any "private" or "For your eyes only" data you might want to send it to me at

hpexpatriot@yahoo.com

Oman

I spoke with Brian at at S&K Speed. (631)957-9427.

Great guy to talk with...get him talking about the old street racing days with their old brown AMX ProStocker and the old Hemi's. Lots of great stories.

Liberty...I'm not sure who I spoke with there, but John B. (69 NOXRat) sent me to them in the first place. Pretty easy to get to the top guys there. (313) 278-4040.

The Nash/Richmond design is a great piece in my opinion. The G-Force follows the basic architecture.

Again, can't say enough about G-Forces Customer service if you ever need them.


JIM

I heard the M22 wasn't really all that great of a transmission.

Some guy has come out with an updated version of the old M22 that is supposed to address its weak points.

With all that said, I'd love to find an original M22 for our 1969 Chevelle.