Ok, just in case any of you remember me from previous posts about my wanting to get what heads are right for me, I have decided that instead of tearing apart the motor to see what pistons I have, and then getting heads, I am just going to build a new motor graemlins/hurray.gif I have a line on the block, and it has caused questions to arise in my mind. Anyway, here I go,

What does using studs over bolts do for me? Does it mean that much on a street motor?

What would be the top RPM on this beast? If its studded (if that helps at all) with a Callies crank and a fairly light rotating assembly (all balanced of course).

What is the most power a 69 M21 Trans can take?

Would I need a 3" exhaust if it has about 650hp? Or would 2.5" be alright?

What do I need for Nitrous? Forged or Hypereutectic (sp?)

Do I need to build a lower compression motor to use N20?

And last but not least, if I build the motor for N20, will it last shot after shot, or will it blow after the third or fourth time?

The goal for this motor is going to be 600hp-650hp on motor, and maybe about 75-100 shot of N20. The N20 is not definate yet.

Thank you O motor guru's!

Studs have more clamping force than bolts. When using MAIN studs, you sometimes need to have your main saddles honed. ARP bolts will be fine for the street. If you are going to run nitrous I would use studs in both the heads and the mains.

I have no clue about manual trannies... someome else will chime in though.

Max RPM is usually calculated by finding piston speed. For that, we need to know the stroke of your crank and your rod length. In fact, give us the whole combo... it'll help a lot.

Use forged pistons for anything over a 100 shot of N2O... KB says their hypereutectic pistons will handle 100 HP (or around there), but I've never tested their theory.

If you build the engine right, it'll last shot after shot. You'll need good bearings, good rod bolts, head and main studs, forged pistons, good piston rings, a good fuel system, a good cooling system, a good ignition system with timing retard, a few safety cutoffs (for low oil pressure, low fuel pressure, etc), and don't shoot it at too low an RPM or at part throttle.

3" exhaust is good, I would think 2.5" would be too small for 650 HP. Is that 650 HP before or after the N2O shot?

The only problem about using head studs is that alotta times, you can't pull your heads while the motor is in the car...

pdq67

You'll pop that M-21 with ease if traction is found. There's a guy in town here that runs a 65 chevelle with a 600 hp 377 and 5.38 gears, runs mid tens. He went through about 8 muncies and Borg warners before going to a G-force 5speed. Mucho dollars wasted trying to make a muncie hold up with his combo. Take a look at the tremec TKO600, that's what I'm planning on using as soon as I sell the four speeds I have.

How fast do you want to go and what can you stand in the way of streetablity?
This might give you a clearer view of how much horsepower you really need.

I take it this is going to be a big block right? Cause 650hp out of a small block all motor, not that it can't be done, will be quite a feet!!!...and definatly not daily driver friendly! What specs do you have, or are looking at, for the motor???

Thanks a lot guys. Yes it is a pump gas Big block. My guess of 650 was on the high side before n20. It would probably be more 575-600, but just put 650 out to see if it would change anything on the studs. I am now thinking go less in hp, such as 525-550 to save my tranny and if I need the hp, spray it. As far as streetability, I would like it to idle for periods, and be able to sit at a stop light without over heating (meaning it can sit for 5 minutes, not necisarly 25 minutes). As far as the power goes, I would like it to hook on 28X10.5 Cheater slicks. Is it possible to idle and not overheat that quickly with that kind of power?

I am not looking for something that is going to run in the 10's but maybe high to mid 11's. As far as cam, I was thinking hydraulic roller. Something with great low end torque to get off the line, but doesn't have too be able to pull past 6500rpm. Dual plane manifold (I heard they were better for street use.) A mechanical DP Holley. Forgot to mention bore is most likely 3.10 and stroke is 4.250 (496cid). I have not put together the combo yet, but I ran a DD2000 on a motor with the Dart Iron Eagle Heads (308cc flow, 119cc, 2.250/1.880) and a cam like the Crane with the part # 133802. (.529/.525 2000-5000RPM)I want something with a nice idle. This cam/combo in a 496 gave me 610ft lbs, 550hp. Is this true, or will it be a dog?

Thanks a lot guys, I know these things may be simple, but I just cannot get it.

Naw, you're getting it. 11s will take a bit more than a "smooth" cam I think. Think about the smallest Crane solid roller SR236 to make the kind of power you seek, it idles quite calmly.

The Muncie will be toast once you get a 60' time below 1.65 IMHO. Bear in mind that fast clutch cars require lots of gear! There is no torque converter, so gears are the only torque multiplication you get. Shoot for a 1st gear ratio of around 10:1. IMHO.

Thanks 427 (Gene?). I could not find the SR236, but I did find the SR238 (595/615) would that be similar? It says the RPM range is 3000-6500, but I want something that delivers the low end torque. would it still deliver that along with the upper RPM HP? Losing my Muncie is starting to scare me. What about the super case Muncie M22's. They are said to be able to withstand 1000hp if I remember correctly. I have 3:73's now and plan to possibly go to 4:10's when the motor comes about. Is that high enough?
Thanks for all the help.

The way I understand this is that it is first the MOPAR A833, then the Ford Top-Loader and then our old M-21 Muncie as far as STOCK four-speed tranny strength's go.....

I have an A833 out of my brother's '70-1/2 Challenger so may just have to adapt it in there at some point in time?? Bellhousing kits are around and not all that far out of line price-wise, imho, to adapt it or the Top-Loader..

And I'm in the same boat with my M-20, 3.31's and about 550hp, 496 motor..

pdq67

yup, the mopar and ford trans will hold up to more power but the muncie is the best for fast shifting. A friend of mine is building a nostalgic 57 chev drag car and will be using a bigblock ford toploader with an adapter, I guess people have been doing it for years.

My friends DSA make 520hp and runs 11 flat @4200lbs w/a slushbox.
Your Chevelle would require less hp to run those numbers given the appropriate launch with a stick.

There is plenty of good combos here running anywhere from mid 10's to 13's..do some research..plenty of reading and real experience here..theres no reason to put together a half ass combo that performs sub par IMHO
A 454 with 10.5 to 1,Gene's cam,ported ovals with 2.19/1.88 valves should be worth some impressive tq/hp numbers..but you'll need to hook it up to get into the 11's

The Jerico 4 speed tranny is awesome bolts right up to the bellhousing just need to do a little trimming on the tunnel but worth the money you cant miss with it. Sean

I found a tranny that is said to be able to handle the power. It is an M22, but its all brand new parts and case with thicker gears ect. It is a reasonable price too. Do you think that will be able to handle the power? M-22 (http://m-22.com/)

Chris, I agree with you. There is no reason to spend the money on a half-ass combo. Maybe it will be done by the time you come and visit us at one of the un-official Long Island Chevelle Club next summer. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Now, next question is the rear. How long before you think that I could blow it up? Is there anything that I could do strengten it without using an aftermarket carrier/axles, or is that the only way to go?

Da--, That's kinda high, isn't it???

And it doesn't even come with a shifter..

AND I can drive and pick it up in my corn-popper cheaper then the box, insurance and shipping charges!!!

Set me straight here guy's....

pdq67

At first I thought so. I found a different sight that said they are the origonall ones to build the transmissions and they designed it and so on, and sell it for like $1800 ( Here (http://www.5speeds.com/newm22.html) ). I emailed the guy (with the $1800) to find out if its as strong as the one for $2500. I have not heard back yet. The 1800 sounds like a nice price, if it is as strong as they say. I looked at rebuilt to stock M-22's and they were around $1500-$1600 so $100 more for a stronger one doesn't seem that bad. Just cannot currently afford a Jericho or would definately buy one.

if those manual trannys are that ridiculously priced, i would be thinking about getting an automatic. it'll most likely be quicker anyway.

Nope, no auto here. It is a street car, so all out timeslips are not what I am shooting for. Plus, I don't find putting it in D or going click....click.....click... as much fun as power shifting 1-2 and having the shifter ball come off in your hand. Just my $.02 anyway.

That's the same SuperCase - Italian gear set that is mentioned all the time in the Transmission forum.

Talk to Wally (www.muncie4speed.com) he is a Team Member, and has a MUCH better price!! Like $1800 total!

P.S. I don't buy anybody's "torque" rating on these things. It's impossible to tell without a HUGE safety factor. GM won't even qualify torque ratings, let alone a shop that build a couple trannies here and there. Ask around, and you'll get the best "feeling" for what these trannies will hold.

Neal

Originally posted by RedSS454:
Nope, no auto here. It is a street car, so all out timeslips are not what I am shooting for. Plus, I don't find putting it in D or going click....click.....click... as much fun as power shifting 1-2 and having the shifter ball come off in your hand. Just my $.02 anyway. oh it's definately more fun with a manual tranny, i just don't like sweeping parts up off the road with a broom and a shovel.
;)

m71, you are correct, but I could be thinking "wow, that was fun" while I am sweeping tongue.gif

Thanks Neal, I plan on dropping him a line right when I get done writing this post.

Another question has arisen. The rear. Is it as week as the transmission is? It is a 12 bolt. I know the U joints and the drive shaft may need to be strengthened, but will I blow the rear on the first hole shot?
Thanks,
Chris

Chris,

Check out Star Transmissions in Lindenhurst, Kinda across from S-K Speedshop.

The owner there has alot of Muncie and T-10's and tranny's like that, and knows 70 chevelles and monties well - he drives a 454 monty and his son drives a 454 chevelle. He'll also be able to answer your rear questions.

He's close and was a big help to me, he should be able to build/get a tranny just the way you want it. Very honest and reliable.

-Ryan

Thanks Ryan. I will have to check them out tomorow.
Chris
P.S. Where in NY are you? LI?

Well right now im at school in Oswego, but ill be back on the Island in Northport next year.

We are starting an inpromtu Chevelle cruise night. So when you get back on the island, come on down and say high one day.
Chris

souds cool, of course i have to get the velle drivable again (needs paint and a front windshield and etc.) so it'll be in the fall of 05.

where are you starting this cruise night?