Was wondering if some of the engine builders here would be willing to comment on the quality of the BBC Block derivative's: World Merlin III as it compairs to the newer Dart Mig M Blocks. I have yet to use one of these non GM blocks and want to get the best for my 598 project. I'm sorta familiar with the features just have a limited understanding of the quality. Any help is appreciate.. graemlins/waving.gif

I've recently completed a 540 project using the Merlin III block...9.8" deck, 4.500" bore version.
I purchased it finished honed with cam bearings and freeze plugs already installed directly shipped from World.
Bores sizes and mains were right on. The block quality and workmanship overall was exceptional. I couldn't have done a better job myself.
Except for that blue color... :rolleyes:

Kripes, you at least dusted it in flat black then! :rolleyes:

I don't think much changed really from the II to the III, but I can tell you I am extremely pleased with my Merlin II. I've had it running for several years now in a 540" street deal with no issues. I also know of several personally in serious race setups that are also dead on.

The machine work was great overall. Mine was a purchased as a 4.250 bore and we bored it, but everything else was fine. They did leave quite a bit of meat on the decks and we had to cut .028 or so it seems like to get deck where we wanted it (VERY tight).

I know lots of folks that run the Darts too and some will swear they are better of course, but I've also seen/heard of a few with serious casting issues. They were fixed with sleeves.... Probably just freaks, but I haven't run across that with any Merlins.

JIM

540hotrod,what were the casting issues with the dart block??

I bought a couple of Dart blocks from a local machine shop that had core wires exposed when they were bored to 4.560/4.600. These are the wires that hold casting plates in place. This shop said they have had quite a few show up on Bowtie blocks and Chevy said to hone 'em and run 'em. All I've seen were very low in the bores. I had the shop sleeve both of mine with sleeves from Dart and have had no problems with them. They commented recently that Dart has corrected the problems, so it looks like I won't be getting any more cheap blocks. They will use a Merlin block if a customer asks, but they pretty much swear by the Darts. HTH

The dart blocks have provisions for the extra head bolts from the lifter valley - do the merlins have that?

Originally posted by 66 283:
The dart blocks have provisions for the extra head bolts from the lifter valley - do the merlins have that? Yes, they do.

For those that are not up on the published features of these two offerings I put together this to help. graemlins/thumbsup.gif my little compare sheet (http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/c/pcs0snq/bbc%20after%20market%20blocks.jpg)

I'm more interested in the current quality. Dart is the new comer. So far it looks like in the 3 the years they have been trying to play catch up Maskin's has not reach Mitchell's quality... comments????

I here comments like DART is better, but more comments that design and manufacturing issues are present...

Damm graemlins/angry.gif I wish I could buy a GM part number 10051106 the old Mark IV Bow Tie blocks where very good.

I have the Merlin III mainly because you can get a much better price on this block. The Dart is much more money for basically the same thing. Scoggin Dickey sells the fully prepped 4.5" bore MIII for $1895.

I had to take .020 off the deck (to get close to 0), and the bores were a little tighter than I liked, so I had them honed a bit.

http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/03catalog/merliniiblock.pdf

Originally posted by pcs0snq:

Damm graemlins/angry.gif I wish I could buy a GM part number 10051106 the old Mark IV Bow Tie blocks where very good. If that is tall deck gen IV bow tie, have I got a deal for you - today only, special price - I will trade you my "gently used" gen iv block for a new dart block. Only bored 4.605" and I drove it like my grandmaw, just a little part of my pinky toe touched the gas pedal.
:D graemlins/beers.gif

Originally posted by 66 283:
Only bored 4.605" and I drove it like my grandmaw, just a little part of my pinky toe touched the gas pedal.
:D graemlins/beers.gif [/QB]lol me thinks you should send that to the Smithsonian. lol tongue.gif

Originally posted by 427L88:
Kripes, you at least dusted it in flat black then! :rolleyes: Black...yuck! :eek:
Rightous Chevy orange, my man! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/BillsCamino/540c.JPG

Black...yuck! :eek:
Rightous Chevy orange, my man! graemlins/thumbsup.gif [/qb]Did you paint the Milodon pan because the gold finished died or just got carried away? lol :eek:

Originally posted by pcs0snq:
Did you paint the Milodon pan because the gold finished died or just got carried away? lol :eek: No, the gold finish didn't die...the pan was brand new. :rolleyes:
I didn't want that "gold" look. Just my preference!
I went thru that with my sb Milodon pan. It's fades fast...starts turning chalky white.

damm, you do like that Orange... graemlins/beers.gif

ME TOOOOO!!!!

pdq67

Been an investor and consultant for startup companies for a long time. I think the thing to pay attention to is core competency. Mitchell is after the whole nine yards, broadest market penetration they can get - anything that has to do with high perf they want to brand it and sell it - seems like they want to be another Holley or Edelbrock (booming market - edel contributed a measly 6400 shares today).

In this saturated market, Maskin wants to mfg the best heads, blocks, and manifolds...period. In a real test set - say 50 merlins and 50 darts, Dart will win the quality play hands down. Mitchells business success is tied to margins extracted from systems that contain subsystems over which they have little to no quality control (rotating assembly for example). Maskin on the other hand is providing point products over which he has complete R&D and mfg control.

World is not world anymore - it's mitchell - a broad line supplier spread wide and thin across a saturated market. Crates were the big play - big mistake. Within two years GM will dominate that market by a 3:1 margin, and I'm being conservative. Mitchell kind of reminds me of all the test marketing Titan Motorcycle did for Harley. Titan validated a new breed of bike but forgot about the 800 pound gorilla watching from the sidelines. After enough validation, Harley steps in and says thanks for the free market analysis - titan's gone 6 months later.

mitchell seems to be attempting to fold as much as they can back under the wp name. Just one data point, but it looks like Summit just dropped half the crate line for another vendor. the shift to the world umbrella may be a little late.

dart is focused and tight with their users. Not sure where you guys are all located, but the best engine shops in south texas will recommend a Dart platform everytime. Why? Experience I guess. In fact, one shop won't touch anything but Dart. Maskin takes the time to work with his customers. He takes real data from the industry (uh...drag racing, not Caterpillar) and constantly pursues best practices. He doesn't sit in a corporate office in one state with mfg in another and a bunch of offshore suppliers to manage. You call Dart, you get answers from the shop floor. Customer support - do one thing, do it well, people will want it.

Maskin chasing mitchell's quality? Don't think so. I have a wp small block that had LOTS of interesting and differing dimensions. Nothing a real machine shop couldn't correct, but jeez it was just plain fugly what we found.

In the long haul, Maskin will win the battle - he's not allowing his ego to talk him into competing with GM in a saturated market.

Personally, I'll go Dart everytime from now on. In the long term, Dart will be the preferred choice - may as well get on the right plaform now.

Mike, Interesting comments. Not having that same insight, I have to sit a learn. I have had excellent past experience with Dart for heads and Intakes as well as support after the sale. I have also had good luck with World with some heads, carbs and other stuff. Summit Racing Catalog has both Dart and World blocks as well as World crate engines. I have one comment. How do you see GM getting back into the market, yep that's right I thing there way out now for BBC stuff, when the pricing is at least way more for lees performance. They never seem to have any idea what this market segment wants or needs. The ZZ572 looks promising, but it's still does not seem to be available??? Does not even show up as an available crate engine on the web site. 540 World crate 800hp carb to pan good parts $11,200. ZZ572 $2000 more and 10% less power Why do you think GM will re-take the crate market segment by a conservative 3:1?

Out of town again. Bottom line is there is no way to compete with GM R&D in the long haul. Sure they're slow coming to market, but that is the only thing their competition has going for them. Sell as many "fully assembled's" before GM rolls another one out.

I look at it as 3 market segments with the one in the middle getting squeezed out. You got crates - GM, Ford, Mopar. You "fully assembled customs" - like mitchell who is now running under WP, or SpeedoM, or Edel, or anyone else that advertises a "complete" engine. Finally you got the real expert local builders - Lewis Racing, G&G, probably several in your area - at a minimum most of the people serious about reliable hp will go to the custom builders in their area before they every drop $7-10K on a "crate". The really good local shops make a living on their word. They may even get good enough to start building for people outside their area, but they are not going to compromise their quality or their trade/tuning secrets for volume sales.

It's the guys in the middle that have the problem - the constant pressure to improve margins means they'll always go with the best deal they can get on parts and labor. They simply have no other choice. Toss a little greed in there and the product gets a whole lot uglier. So while GM is, say, refining metallurgical content, the so-called "fully assembled's" are across the water looking for a way to knock $35 bucks off of each crank.

And that's why I used the Titan example. Fat handlebars, stretched tanks, 120hp motors, mega-billet, fat tires, cool wheels - all the good stuff. Harley watched and waited and slowly started adding more and more performance parts to their catalog AND bikes and not to far down the road you could get a Harley to look pretty trick and put a lot of power to the ground - and it was 100% Harley. Meanwhile, titan is freaking out because their starting to hit the downside of changing suppliers and subcontractors to stay out of the red. And that downside is a loss of quality that grows like bacteria in rest stop bathroom.

Long post, but the "fully assembled's" call themselves crates when they're not. They are once-upon-a-time small shops, or racers, or parts suppliers or whatever that took a ride on the market boom just like everyone else. They stepped away from their core competency to take a chance on a volume-based play and in my opinion almost all of them will get squeezed out. If I'm looking for reliable hp and I'm going to buy a complete engine, I'll pay the $2K more for a few less hp from GM. Dyno numbers are b.s. anyway unless your're standing right there.

I know I'm gonna get dinged for equating quality to GM - a lot of people would say that's an oxymoron. Don't care - I know better. Equality is an equation that starts with R&D and not a single solitary fully-assembled engine provider can compete with a multi-billion dollar R&D budget and thousands of equivalent man-years of manufacturing and repeatability experience.

GM is still testing the waters and working the kinks out. A volume builder like mitchell would let you work the kinks out while they sell more motors. Edelbrock is one of the largest performance parts suppliers in the industry at around $130M/year. I don't think they got agressive enough on their performance numbers, so I don't think they're moving a lot of "crates". And a $130M is just a nick in GM's R&D budget. I'm not saying all of it goes into motors, but a lot of inter-divisional knowledge sharing goes on. So, when I say 3:1 it's based on all the ad's I see in all the mags for "complete, fully assembled, we-been-doin-this-forever, high quality, warranty included" engines. That's the middle market segment and that's where the growth is. GM can drop their price by $1000 and have a way larger backlog than they do now. I'm just going on experience here, but I'm 7 for 8 in startup companies and the reason is I've always looked for the niche. The one that failed did so because we tried to lay over too broad of a market. We augered that baby 10 feet into the concrete before it was done.....