If any one knows where I can view some numbers, I would appreciate it. Would like to try a roller profile in my 540. Ive searched alot of posts, but still not sure how big to go since the motor is only 9.5:1 , currently running a solid .625 lift 259@.050 114lsa. Heads are big allum. merlins 119cc and 5cc domes. Headers are 2.125, 4-speed, 4.11 gears. Any Suggestions?

I'm sure Harold will jump in here, but I can give you a little insight from my experience.

The first version of my 540 used unported Brodix 2xtra's, an old short Team G intake, 10.5 compression and a custom Engle solid roller. It was 262/273@.050 .672/.675 lift on 112 LSA. Really pretty gentle lobes overall and ran great on street. It idled below 1000 rpm if you wanted to and peaked HP at 6200 and TQ at 4600 uncapped. It made 732 hp and 678 ft lbs. It would lug down to 1300-1500 in high gear with 3.36's at the time!

The issue I had was after 6500 rpm power fell off quickly. Engle suggested I keep the cam and work on porting heads and changing intake. Of course I did the normal thing and changed cam, intake (Super Victor) and ported heads. Also increased compression to 11.06. Probably went too far with cam as head porting/intake really seemed to help the airflow at the top end. The new cam is a 272/278@.050 on 110 LSA .731/.731 lift. It peaked at 825.1hp around 7400 rpm and TQ was 667 @5300 though. Actually still climbing but I decided to call it quits there..it was only losing 3-5 ft lbs per 100 rpm up there! It still idles pretty clean around 1000-1100 or so, but is not "happy" cruising around under 2000 rpm. I have a 5 speed (5th direct) and 3.07 gears and at 75-78 mph it's still pretty choppy. But it sounds good! The old one sounded pretty wimpy really...but midrange TQ (under 5000 rpm) was up 50-100 ft lbs over the current one depending on RPM.

I have a buddy using a Lunati HR in a 9.5 540. I think it's around 236/242@.050 and .612 or so on lift. It's on a 110 LSA. His car is very smooth and driveable, but HP peaks at 4900 rpm on the dyno and falls off rapidly from there using ported GM/Edelbrock rectangular ports and a Holley Strip Dominator. He was using the old tall LS-6 dual plane until recently. The Strip Dominator picked up 30 RWHP everywhere in the range, but peak rpm was the same. I think he needs another 15-20* duration. I'm working on him!

Just out of curiosity...how does your cam perform? RPM peaks? Any dyno numbers? If you do much street driving, you need to be prepared for regular lifter maintenance/replacement. The Isky Red Zones and Crowers should help with direct pin oiling and I understand from Comp they are about to introduce the same design on theirs as std.


JIM

This work? Lunati (http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/IEC/IECC/Chevy7.html)
UDH usually recommends something like the 287/296 .660" cam

Jim,
The grind your buddy is using, is similar to the hyd flat tappet grind my engine origially had. The Engine was dynoed with that cam from Bill Mitchell, the document states 625 hp@5800 and 640ftlbs@4500rpm. I did not get a full incremental dyno sheet with the engine, and when I asked them to send it to me they just blew me off, so much for that.

This past winter I sent the heads to Mike Stark at CFM and he cleaned up the ports and chambers and did the valves. I had him port match the mitchell single plane intake while he had the heads. While all that was happening, I got the UD grind from harold and installed that cam 6 deg advanced. I dont have any dyno numbers with the mods but it really dosent seem much different from the original set up. The engine feels like it might even be lacking a little bottom end but pulls hard to 6000. I really dont want to turn it any more than 6000 and would still like to have some street manners. I use 2 1/8 lemons pipes into 3.5 xpipe to ultra flows which dump. Im still using the 870 cfm michell carb, I also have a 1050 square bore but the motor seems to lose alot of pull when I use this carb and my lm1 says it runs really lean with that carb. I had to jet that thing way up. Its as if it loses the velocity that I get from the smaller venturi carb.
I really dont mind the maintenance with the lifters, Ive gotten pretty good at adjusting valves. If a solid roller design is in my future I wouldnt buy anything but Isky red zones. Is the compression the limiting factor here or can this motor make 700hp on pump gas with the right cam? I believe there is more than enough flow in the heads, cylinder pressure may be an issue, not sure if I need to run the 112 to 114 lsa to keep it up.

Did you change springs with the solid cam? I can't imagine a 540 not liking a 1050 carb especially on a single plane intake. Any flow numbers after Mike was finished?

I think 700 Hp is possible, but the cam required to do it will like more compression to keep it crisp at the bottom end. I think you could get there with a solid flat tappet, but you need to get over 6000 rpm to do it. You have 4.11's so no reason not to get into the 6500 range...it can handle it with no problem.

The 112-114 LSA is going the wrong way if you want to build cylinder pressure. That is essentially retarding intake lobe and closing valve later which makes issue worse. I think with the low compression you might start looking at some 108-110 LSA cams to get pressure up some. Street manners won't be as smooth, but it will pull harder. You really don't want to go wild on overlap....but to get this kind of power you really don't have much choice.

Overlap itself has nothing to do with DCR, but sort of by osmosis, the lobes associated with lots of overlap also are relatively large and have a late closing intake..that is what kills DCR. You can spread the LSA out on large lobe cams to lessen the overlap which is what you usually see. It's always a toss up, because widening the LSA as I mentioned just closes intake even later and now it "thinks" it's larger again!

As I mentioned, something in the low-mid 260's@.050 in a solid roller or possibly even a good flat tappet might get you there.

Just decide how wild you want to go and decide how much $$ you're willing to spend to maintain it. Adjusting won't be an issue...it's the lifters that will be the tough part. Don't cheap out on springs either...solid rollers need the best you can get. I'm using K-motions with titanium retainers.

JIM

Originally posted by 67ragtp:
Jim,
The grind your buddy is using, is similar to the hyd flat tappet grind my engine origially had. The Engine was dynoed with that cam from Bill Mitchell, the document states 625 hp@5800 and 640ftlbs@4500rpm. I did not get a full incremental dyno sheet with the engine, and when I asked them to send it to me they just blew me off, so much for that.

This past winter I sent the heads to Mike Stark at CFM and he cleaned up the ports and chambers and did the valves. I had him port match the mitchell single plane intake while he had the heads. While all that was happening, I got the UD grind from harold and installed that cam 6 deg advanced. I dont have any dyno numbers with the mods but it really dosent seem much different from the original set up. The engine feels like it might even be lacking a little bottom end but pulls hard to 6000. I really dont want to turn it any more than 6000 and would still like to have some street manners. I use 2 1/8 lemons pipes into 3.5 xpipe to ultra flows which dump. Im still using the 870 cfm michell carb, I also have a 1050 square bore but the motor seems to lose alot of pull when I use this carb and my lm1 says it runs really lean with that carb. I had to jet that thing way up. Its as if it loses the velocity that I get from the smaller venturi carb.
I really dont mind the maintenance with the lifters, Ive gotten pretty good at adjusting valves. If a solid roller design is in my future I wouldnt buy anything but Isky red zones. Is the compression the limiting factor here or can this motor make 700hp on pump gas with the right cam? I believe there is more than enough flow in the heads, cylinder pressure may be an issue, not sure if I need to run the 112 to 114 lsa to keep it up. =
You should have no problem making 700+HP even at 9.5 with a 540.
I would use something like Harolds 286/296 (257/265 .710/..710) or Isky's S558/S556 lobes (254/264-.714/.714 and 108-110 seperation.
They both have lobes for about .680 if you don't want to run that much lift.
The tighter seperation will give you more cylinder pressure. (DCR) advanced 4-6 degrees.
Obviously these are both rollers & will both make peak power about 6200 & be very streetable in a 540

If you email me I can probably save you a dollar or two on the Isky lifters ;)

Scott- Thanks for the list

Jim- The springs are doubles with 140lbs on the seat, so harold said that would be plenty. And when Mike had the heads apart he said everything looks good. I did not have him flow them so I dont have numbers. They sure did look pretty when I got them back. Thankyou for straightening me out on lobe seperation angles. What kind of spring pressure is required for the roller?

Mike- If I had Harolds 286/296 w/680 lift ground on a 112 would this add more streetability to this cam. Would the torque curve be flatter going this way or is it still not enough cylinder pressure. If I went with the 110LSA is detonation a concern. Sorry for all the questions I just want to set up the right combination. And could I purchase the springs and retainers from you if I bought the lifters. Do you think I could make the spring swap with the heads on the engine.

Thanks Rich

Spreading it out to 112 will make it pretty decent. As I mentioned, my old cam was a 262/273 on 112 and it was very streetable.

I don't see you having any detonation concerns at all with any of these cams with your compression

I'm not sure how aggresive those two cams are as far as lobe/ramps, but it sounds like Mike has experience with them. You might get some .200 duration numbers and compare them to some of the Crane street rollers. Admittedly they use much less lift, but you could do some shopping. They are relatively gentle lobes in the .630 range and mid 250's on lift also. I've seen just over 700 hp with them and good heads.

I was using 200#/520# on the 262* cam and I'm currently using 225#/660# on the 272* cam.

Sounds like you are alright on the old cam with spring pressure...just maybe that wide LSA is killing too much power.

Mike can make you a great deal on the lifters!


BTW- Mike...I didn't forget you...after you e-mailed me, Comp stepped up and gave a fantastic deal on rebuilding my old ones. Since I was about to embark on that 2000 mile trip, I decided to use them as "sacrificial" so to speak just in case something happened. Luckily they survived...but I'll probably check them soon anyway. The rest of summer is here, so I will still likely be needing some eventually. For sure you're who I'm coming to! Thanks for all the help!


JIM

Rich,
Email me i can save you a ton of money on Crowers with HIPPO.

Originally posted by 67ragtp:
Scott- Thanks for the list

Jim- The springs are doubles with 140lbs on the seat, so harold said that would be plenty. And when Mike had the heads apart he said everything looks good. I did not have him flow them so I dont have numbers. They sure did look pretty when I got them back. Thankyou for straightening me out on lobe seperation angles. What kind of spring pressure is required for the roller?

Mike- If I had Harolds 286/296 w/680 lift ground on a 112 would this add more streetability to this cam. Would the torque curve be flatter going this way or is it still not enough cylinder pressure. If I went with the 110LSA is detonation a concern. Sorry for all the questions I just want to set up the right combination. And could I purchase the springs and retainers from you if I bought the lifters. Do you think I could make the spring swap with the heads on the engine.

Thanks Rich =
Rich
Yes, spreading the lobes will make the cams more "streetable" but with your compression & self imposed rpm limit I would stay at 110.
Spreading the lobes will also tend to flatten & lengthen the torque curve slightly.
Any of the lobes will be very streetab;e in a 540.
I used some Comp XE lobes (254/260,.698/.660, 111 sep) in a 489 with 9.8 & AFR 315's & it idled about 850 & made excellent power.

Yes you can change the springs on the heads but it isn't the most fun :D
And as always, when I look at lobes or cams I almost always talk with Ron or Harold before making a final decision,, it is what they do & they can tell me how wrong I am :(

Yes I can get you springs & retainers with the lifters,, more than happy to help folks spend their money :D

BTW if I were going to use any lifter besides the Isky it would be the Crower with the oiling option but I feel the Isky is a little better.

====
Jim,
Thanks for the words, I appreciate it & glad if I could be of help
Did you lower your spring pressure a bit?? graemlins/beers.gif

Glad Comp helped you out.
Just wish they would be a bit more up front when they have a problem.
I hate it when I am the only person in the known world that has had a certain problem when talking to them graemlins/angry.gif

why are the isky's better?

The crew i race with has used crower lifters with great success.

Originally posted by Motor Martyr:
why are the isky's better?

The crew i race with has used crower lifters with great success. The Iskys can be rebuilt. That's why I got them. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by ben70:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Motor Martyr:
why are the isky's better?

The crew i race with has used crower lifters with great success. The Iskys can be rebuilt. That's why I got them. graemlins/thumbsup.gif </font>[/QUOTE]=

Brian,
Not knocking the Crowers.
As I said, I feel the Crower is an excellent lifter & I have no problem with them,,
I just prefer the Isky's.
Been using them for a long time & have never had a failure yet & some get beat on pretty good for hours on end compared to seconds at a time ;)

Last year, before I purchased my lifters I talked with Ron (at Isky).

I asked him about the Crower Severe Duty lifters and he said they were an excellent lifter. He told me that the Crowers and the Isky Red Zones were "very" comparable in strength and durability. Wouldn't go wrong with either lifter, but he said since the Isky's were rebuildable, that they were a better deal.

Originally posted by 71454Chevelle:
Last year, before I purchased my lifters I talked with Ron (at Isky).

I asked him about the Crower Severe Duty lifters and he said they were an excellent lifter. He told me that the Crowers and the Isky Red Zones were "very" comparable in strength and durability. Wouldn't go wrong with either lifter, but he said since the Isky's were rebuildable, that they were a better deal. =
Correct & another excellent reason at least in my opinion is Isky is a smaller family owned company & if you call & want to talk to the owners it is rare he doesn't answer the phone or call you back.
I have had Ron return my calls at like 8 in the evening when he has been too busy to do it during the day graemlins/thumbsup.gif
I have been dealing with Isky for over 30 years & have had very few problems that were the fault of Isky.
Had the privilege of seeing Mr. Ed Iskenderian at the PRI show this year & talked with him for about a half hour while waiting for our dinner reservations with Tony & the gang from AFR.
I haven't seen him in 20+ years & he still remembered me & the cars I drove!!
Yes, the "Camfather" is still very active & sharp as ever graemlins/thumbsup.gif

His sons Rich & Ron pretty much run the business now but he is still "lurking"

Excellent products, excellent service & in general it's a company that is pleasure to be associated with & to be able to sell quality products for.
====
Hey Rich,,,
Sorry for another "left turn" on your post :D

No problem, Mike. Use the post all you want, Im learning more and more as I read your posts. And thanks again to everyone for the help. Im gettin sappy now this site is awesome. graemlins/hurray.gif

As soon I make a decision on a grind I will call you or E-mail

Rich

Mike,

Ive been looking at one of harolds rollers its 256/264 .660/.660 on 110lsa 502A4LUN. Do you think this grind will be close to 700hp and still be able to idle at a trafic light. What kind of spring pressure is required for this? If I turn it to 6500 at the track it probably wont hurt it, I usually only make 10 to 15 passes in a season. So I am concerned about street manners. Do these cams usually have 4 deg advance already built in to them, so I would only need to set my gear 2 deg advanced.

Thanks Rich

I used that cam on a 109 sep. Street driven for 8000 miles. I had about 200# seat 580# open if I remember right.
You won`t have any problems especially if you use quality springs.
I used generic brand springs eventualy ended up with broken inners but hey, I had some miles on them though, then went with some K-motions after that, still, not the best but they seem to be ok.

Originally posted by 67ragtp:
Mike,

Ive been looking at one of harolds rollers its 256/264 .660/.660 on 110lsa 502A4LUN. Do you think this grind will be close to 700hp and still be able to idle at a trafic light. What kind of spring pressure is required for this? If I turn it to 6500 at the track it probably wont hurt it, I usually only make 10 to 15 passes in a season. So I am concerned about street manners. Do these cams usually have 4 deg advance already built in to them, so I would only need to set my gear 2 deg advanced.

Thanks Rich =
Rich,
I think it would be harder not making 700 HP with that cam & your 540 & it should make peak power very close to your 6000 rpm limit which I would raise by about 500 :D
I used very comparable lobes but in Comp & made an honest 670HP @ 6300 at just under 10.0.

It will be very streetable & yes most of the Lunati stuff has 4 degrees built in.
I'd choose something with more lift if I were doing it, especially on the intake.
Preferably closer to .700
Id talk to Harold about the A5 on a 110 LSA
You could also use 1.8 rockers which is what I did on the intake side.
Picked up about 15HP as I recall with just the rocker change. Lost nothing anywhere.
You also might want to discuss his new lobes that aren't listed he has been workin on if you can catch him ;)

Biggest difference between the 489 I did & yours is the heads but it sounds like you have pretty good ones.
I like the AFR because it flows so well at low & mid lift & even with a smaller port it will hold it's own or even outflow most heads in the 340 range to about .700
They really are very efficient.
Had I been doing a 540 I would have gone to the 325cc head.
You said you had big Merlins but you didn't say how big??

Mike,

The heads are Merlin 020660 alum. rectangular port 350cc, acording to Mike Stark he gave me a data sheet that says "typical flow numbers for this head" 370 IN cfm 270 EX cfm @ .650" lift. Im a little confused on the valve size since Mike wrote on his data sheet 2.190/1.880 stainless. And the Merlin data sheet I recieved with the engine says 2.250x1.88 and another data sheet I have says the 660s -2 should have 2.3 X1.88, at least where consistant on the exhaust side. So I believe the springs to be 1.55 diameter. Mike also did a 3angle serdi cut and Milling- clean up only(how much is removed there, enough to raise compression slightly?)
I must admit Mike does very nice work. So thats the story on my heads. BTW Harold is impossible to get in touch with. He must be very busy right now.

Rich

Well,, I will say this, those heads should be pretty fair if you ever decide 7500-8000 RPM is in your plans :D
My opinion is that head is to big for a 6000 rpm engine & the reason Mitchell used it is because it's what he had that would make the power at the time.
It will make the power but I feel a good 320 or so head would be a better all around one.
At low speed I feel they are going to be on the lazy side compared to something a smaller. If any porting was done that made them larger it is going to be worse.
Out of the box the flow numbers I have seen are really not spectacular for a head that large.
Only set I've seen were 2.300" & I didn't flow them.

Here's the numbers on an out of the box 315 AFR & these are real numbers not advertised although you can believe both AFR & Brodix when they tell you what a head flows. Neither inflates their numbers.
This is off my bench not advertised.
28" 4.530 bore no pipe
.050 - 40/34
.100 - 78/69
.200 - 164/142.5
.300 - 247/198
.400 - 309/240
.500 - 350/267
.600 - 375/280
.700 - 383/283
.800 - 381/286
As I posted before, this is really a well designed head.
I'd say Tony did a pretty fair job of designing them :eek:

Mike,

How's the little 305 head in the flow department if I'm not messed up here on whose head it is??

pdq67

Comps XR286R ? 654/661 286/292 248/254 on a 110 lsa

Originally posted by pdq67:
Mike,

How's the little 305 head in the flow department if I'm not messed up here on whose head it is??

pdq67 =
Outstanding with the CNC chamber option it will come very close to the 315 until about .650 or so & it's about $650 cheaper graemlins/thumbsup.gif
It is the same casting & when Tony set up the CNC program he also added some bowl work.