I have a freshly rebuilt 454,solid lifter cam, Comp lifters and Pro Magnum roller rockers.

It was suggested by one of the guys at the speed shop in town that I run "Oil restrictors". The guy gave me a set from Moroso with a .60" orfice.

Should I actually use these? The car is mostly street with a little strip action once in a while. To me the idea of restricting oil flow to my top end sounds crazy, what do you guys think?

None in mine.

We ran oil restricors in a 1200hp motor to keep oil in the pan for the bearings, but that was with a 7 second motor and a highvolume high pressure pump, that on occasion pumped the 14quart oil pan to where the oil pressure was around 20# at the traps, and then would come back up when letting off the throttle.

No sense on running those on a street car, more oil up top and the more the valve springs will live, the oil is the only thing that keeps them cool.

My motor (solid roller) revs to 7200 I have 50psi oil pressure light and it has never come on going down the strip. I am also running a high volume oil pump.

I hope this helps. smile.gif

Never in a street car. The old thought was to control the amount of oil up top to keep it from leaking down the guides and to help the oil pressure at the bearings. New way of thinking now they actually put external oil sources to the valve gear to try to keep the valve springs cooler and extend their life.

Hey, roller rockers automatically restrict top end oil, yes.

>>>Hey, roller rockers automatically restrict top end oil, yes.

huh? not that I know of.

What I've done on these is drill the hole out to .090 or so, run them. Chevy's over-oil the top end, it's always been a problem, restrictors fix it. Solid cam, roller rockers, I'd run them.

Tom

sapper,
Just another opinion but,,,
I do not run restrictors in any wet sump engine I build.
I think you will find the consensus of most of the cam & spring guys is not to run them.
If you are getting too much oil in the top end you need to address your return to the sump not bandaid it by restricting the oil.
It is the only thing that cools the valve springs.
On dry sump stuff we actually tap into the oil system & put spray bars in the valve covers for more oil to the springs.
I suppose if it is a drag race only deal restricting the oil wouldn't hurt as you aren't running the engine long enough to worry about spring heat & in real serious drag stuff the springs don't last long enough for it to be a problem anyway :D
If you are going to run them at least do as Tom suggested & drill them bigger.

sapper said: "The car is mostly street with a little strip action once in a while."

I personally don't see valve spring overheating as a big issue with a cam that's streetable.

Now, if you're running 800 lift and 8500 rpm or some other high stress deal like NASCAR or offshore turbo boat that's a different story.

Of course, then there's deals like the one I fixed awhile back, the guy had installed restrictors in an engine that had hydraulic lifters. Seems there was a little noise.....

Tom

I'm not gonna use 'em then. I have a high volume melling pump and big oilpan so I doubt that I'll empty my pan and starve my bottom end.
Can anything bad happen with too much oil in the top end?

The pushrod socket in a roller rocker doesn't have an oiling hole does it?

Originally posted by sapper92310:
I'm not gonna use 'em then. I have a high volume melling pump and big oilpan so I doubt that I'll empty my pan and starve my bottom end.
Can anything bad happen with too much oil in the top end? ===
I would respectfully suggest you sell your hi volume pump on ebay or use it as a paper weight & install a standard oil pump ;)

Originally posted by 427L88:
The pushrod socket in a roller rocker doesn't have an oiling hole does it? Mine do, bottom of the socket, right through into the area where the fulcrum is. What brand rockers do you have?

But it flows in to the rollers/trunion. Crane's have a visible plug in that oiling hole. Maybe other brands don't. Nevertheless, its a restriction over the 'golden showers' of the stock flow through setup, an automatic restrictor. I thought of that when we used PC seals on those old heads. Too little oil with rr's?

Mine have a hole in the socket, Why is a hv pump a bad idea?

Originally posted by sapper92310:
Mine have a hole in the socket, Why is a hv pump a bad idea? =
Thee is just no reason to run a hi volume pump on a BB Chevrolet.
It is unnecessary for almost any BB application.
You will be on the bypass about 80% of the time which does nothing but waste power & is harder on the distributor & cam gear.
A stock BB pump is probably one of the best designed factory wet sump pumps ever made.
The only reason I can think of to run a hi volume pump is if your engine builder insists on running bearing clearances you can drive a truck through.
The pressure & volume of oil going through your engine are not dictated by the pump, they are directly related to the clearance you run.

Originally posted by Wolfplace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sapper92310:
Mine have a hole in the socket, Why is a hv pump a bad idea? =
Thee is just no reason to run a hi volume pump on a BB Chevrolet.
It is unnecessary for almost any BB application.
You will be on the bypass about 80% of the time which does nothing but waste power & is harder on the distributor & cam gear.
A stock BB pump is probably one of the best designed factory wet sump pumps ever made.
The only reason I can think of to run a hi volume pump is if your engine builder insists on running bearing clearances you can drive a truck through.
The pressure & volume of oil going through your engine are not dictated by the pump, they are directly related to the clearance you run. </font>[/QUOTE]What if you are running solid lifters with the little lazer drilled hole on the face? I've heard they drop alittle pressure if using a standard volume/pressure pump. Would that warrant the use of a 77HV in that case, in your opinion?

If you run a high volume pump, you had better have extra oil pan capacity. The stock pan will get sucked dry at high rpm. We put somewhere in the neighborhood of 200K miles on our L72 motor with the stock pump and the bearings still looked good. Spend your money where it is needed.

Originally posted by Keith Tedford:
If you run a high volume pump, you had better have extra oil pan capacity. The stock pan will get sucked dry at high rpm. We put somewhere in the neighborhood of 200K miles on our L72 motor with the stock pump and the bearings still looked good. Spend your money where it is needed. I was just wondering because I already have a blueprinted 77HV (had it for years).

I am not against buying a standard volume pump, just seeing the opinions of others.

Here's my reasoning ( rightly or wrongly) for using a HV pump in my BBC:
I have a 0.020"hole in the end of each lifter oil galley plug to put extra oiling on the double roller chain and the Torrington thrust bearing. I also have a 0.03" groove on the lower distributor housing to direct oil to the distributor / cam gears for extra oiling. Finally, I'm running Crower HIPPO lifters.

The extra volume of oil from an HV pump translates into higher pressure at idle / low speeds. During low speed, this extra pressure provides much needed lubrication to these areas. As an added bonus, more oil to the top end to cool the springs. smile.gif

Perhaps I'm way off base here, and I'm certainly no expert; if my reasoning is wrong, I'll switch pumps smile.gif

John

I am also running a HV pump with the mods that TD509EFI has mentioned (except no HIPPO lifters). Fully warmed, the oil pressure is 40psi at idle and have never seen it dropping below 50psi at 6500rpm shift points and this is with the stock oil pan.
I have a spare stock volume pump lying around......should I use it? Running the bottom end dry at 6k+ seems very scary!
TIA

Hi Vol oil pumps,,,I have posted this before so here it is again. Some of this is a repeat from what I posted on this thread prevoiusly but it's easier to just repost the whole thing ;)

There is just no reason to run a hi volume pump on a BB Chevrolet.
It is unnecessary for almost any BB application.
You will be on the bypass about 80% of the time which does nothing but waste power, heat the oil & is harder on the distributor & cam gear.
A stock BB pump is probably one of the best designed factory wet sump pumps ever made.
The only reason I can think of to run a hi volume pump is if your engine builder insists on running bearing clearances you can drive a truck through.
For info, GM did not use hi volume pumps even on the ZL1.
The pressure & volume of oil going through your engine are not dictated by the pump, they are directly related to the clearance you run.

Will it "pump the pan dry? Absolutely not. This is not possible as the extra oil it pumps is dumped into the bypass & returned to the inlet side of the pump unless the pump has been modified to return it to the pan which I feel should have been done in the first place.

Will it accelerate drive gear wear?
Probably, especially if you are running excessive pressure.

Will it put more oil through the bearings?
Only if you have too much clearance.
It will put slightly more oil through the bearings but only because of added pressure not volume.
You can do the same thing with a hi pressure std vol pump.

Can it cause a drop in pressure at high rpm?
Yes if the pickup is too close to the pan you can suck a hole in the oil & it can cavitate.
Also there are some including me that believe the return circuit can cause cavitation under certain circumstances at high rpm.
Reasoning,, you are dumping hi pressure oil into the inlet which is a low pressure area & my feeling is you can actually cause a cavitation issue by "blowing" too much hi pressure oil into this circuit.
I could be way off here but have seen pressure drops of 5-10 lbs at high rpm on the dyno for no apparent reason & know the pickup was not the problem & windage shouldn't have been so I feel something was aerating the oil???

There are very valid reasons to use a hi vol pump in some instances but a basically stock engine such as yours is not one unless of course someone put clearances in you can drive a truck through :D

I do feel you should use a hi vol pump in a small block if you are using EDM lifters but you still don't want more than 60-70 lbs max.
This mostly applies to small blocks.

I have never used a hi vol pump on a rat including a 482 I used to run years ago that was shifted at about 8500.
I ran the stock L88 pump which did have slightly longer gears than the stock rat pump & had zero bearing problems.

Cable, in a small block yes, in a Rat no ;)

Hi Mike,

I'm a little reluctant to reply to your response, since I don't want to seem as if I'm arguing, or being stubburn. Rather, I'm just hoping to clarify a couple of points on the HV pump for street use. I agree, for nearly all situations, a HV pump is not necessary, but I felt that the oiling needs of a solid roller cammed engine may be the exception.

For info, GM did not use hi volume pumps even on the ZL1

According to the literature I have GM used a HV pump on the LS7 and ZL1 engines. The stock BB pumps had 1.1"gears, the #3969870 ZL1/LS7 pump had 1.3"gears.

The pressure & volume of oil going through your engine are not dictated by the pump, they are directly related to the clearance you run.

At engine speeds below the bypass valve opening set point, a HV pump will have higher pressure at the same rpm in the same motor than a standard pump. Oil pressure in an engine is defined as resistance to flow. A HV pump has more flow at a given RPM than a stock pump.

You will be on the bypass about 80% of the time which does nothing but waste power, heat the oil & is harder on the distributor & cam gear

On a race engine, I agree, but on the street, the HV pump will be running below the bypass relief the magority of the time.

Will it accelerate drive gear wear?
Probably, especially if you are running excessive pressure

Can't agrue with you there Mike. Anytime you put more load on parts, there will be more wear, in this case, I hope it will be minimal, simply because for the majority of time, the pump won't be using the relief circuit. Don't forget, I'm just using a HV pump, not a HV/HP one. Since I'll be pulling the intake to check for roller lifter wear at the beginning and end of the drive "season", I 'll be sure to check the gears as well.

Oh boy... well, that's my pitiful two cents worth redface.gif . Once again Mike, I was looking for clarification on this issue using a solid roller cammed engine for street use. My intent was not to argue or offend. Hope I don't get fed to the "wolves" on this one! :eek:

Thanks once again for all your help!
graemlins/beers.gif
John

Originally posted by TD509EFI:
Hi Mike,

I'm a little reluctant to reply to your response, since I don't want to seem as if I'm arguing, or being stubburn. Rather, I'm just hoping to clarify a couple of points on the HV pump for street use. I agree, for nearly all situations, a HV pump is not necessary, but I felt that the oiling needs of a solid roller cammed engine may be the exception.

For info, GM did not use hi volume pumps even on the ZL1

According to the literature I have GM used a HV pump on the LS7 and ZL1 engines. The stock BB pumps had 1.1"gears, the #3969870 ZL1/LS7 pump had 1.3"gears.

The pressure & volume of oil going through your engine are not dictated by the pump, they are directly related to the clearance you run.

At engine speeds below the bypass valve opening set point, a HV pump will have higher pressure at the same rpm in the same motor than a standard pump. Oil pressure in an engine is defined as resistance to flow. A HV pump has more flow at a given RPM than a stock pump.

You will be on the bypass about 80% of the time which does nothing but waste power, heat the oil & is harder on the distributor & cam gear

On a race engine, I agree, but on the street, the HV pump will be running below the bypass relief the magority of the time.

Will it accelerate drive gear wear?
Probably, especially if you are running excessive pressure

Can't agrue with you there Mike. Anytime you put more load on parts, there will be more wear, in this case, I hope it will be minimal, simply because for the majority of time, the pump won't be using the relief circuit. Don't forget, I'm just using a HV pump, not a HV/HP one. Since I'll be pulling the intake to check for roller lifter wear at the beginning and end of the drive "season", I 'll be sure to check the gears as well.

Oh boy... well, that's my pitiful two cents worth redface.gif . Once again Mike, I was looking for clarification on this issue using a solid roller cammed engine for street use. My intent was not to argue or offend. Hope I don't get fed to the "wolves" on this one! :eek:

Thanks once again for all your help!
graemlins/beers.gif
John =
Hi John,
First I don't find anything in your post as "argumentative" smile.gif
Questions are always a good thing,, or the questioning mind is a happy mind or some crap like that :rolleyes:

Ok,, in order

1. For info, GM did not use hi volume pumps even on the ZL1

According to the literature I have GM used a HV pump on the LS7 and ZL1 engines. The stock BB pumps had 1.1"gears, the #3969870 ZL1/LS7 pump had 1.3"gears.


Yes, the L88 & ZL1 had a SLIGHTLY larger pump at 1.3" compared to the 1.14 standard pump & this is the pump I used in my Vega but as far as I know it is no longer available.
This is nothing like the "hi volume pumps offered by Melling & others.
But technically you are correct it was higher volume than the standard pump.
Also from my somewhat limited memory, the original reason for this pump was the extra lines & coolers used in a lot of cases with these engines but they were found to be unnecessary even here in most setups.
Some of the very best engine builders I know of including people like Bill Jenkins did not use or recommend anything but the standard 1.14 gear pump & these guys have forgotten more than I know about a Rat ;)
===
2. The pressure & volume of oil going through your engine are not dictated by the pump, they are directly related to the clearance you run.

At engine speeds below the bypass valve opening set point, a HV pump will have higher pressure at the same rpm in the same motor than a standard pump. Oil pressure in an engine is defined as resistance to flow. A HV pump has more flow at a given RPM than a stock pump.

While this is technically true the amount of oil "leaking" out of the bearings is only slightly more than a stock pump up to bypass unless you have more than recommended clearances.
Also, there is a very old & excellent rule of thumb about oil pressure & it is 10lbs / 1000 rpm. It has stood the test of time since before I can remember & most OEM stuff is capping the pressure around 40lbs
Also, you will find most endurance stuff is now capping oil pressure at the point of needed flow, usually no more than 50-60 lbs & in most cases probably less but this is dry sump & it can be measured & controlled.
The point is what difference does it make if you push a little more oil through the bearings at 2000 rpm & have 50 lbs when you only need 20 or 30. & you will have more than this with a stock pump with the proper clearances even with the EDM lifters in a rat.
====
3. You will be on the bypass about 80% of the time which does nothing but waste power, heat the oil & is harder on the distributor & cam gear

On a race engine, I agree, but on the street, the HV pump will be running below the bypass relief the magority of the time.

Again, this is somewhat true (depending on bypass pressure) but what is the point? You do not need 60lbs of oil pressure at 2500-3000 rpm & you will or should be at bypass very shortly thereafter which is your engine trying to tell you that you don't need any more oil, it is moving all it can so please stop pushin :D
====

So, technically, yes the L88 did use a "hi volume" pump but do not confuse this with the aftermarket hi volume pumps, they seem to go by the if a little is good more must be better syndrome & in my opinion you do not need a hi volume pump in a Rat.
If it makes you feel better, use it as it probably isn't going to hurt anything but it is just not necessary,, again in my opinion ;)

Hi Mike,

Lol, thanks for the education, can't say I don't need it!:0

I guess my biggest concern, and my reason for using the HV pump, is those solid roller lifters operating at low speed on the street. Granted, on a race negine this isn't really a concern, the standard pump works great since you're always up in the power band. We all know that the biggest problem with solid roller lifters is getting them to live on the street, due to a lack of low speed lubrication. Since a HV pump would provide higher pressure at low speeds ( all else being equal, bearing clearances, lubrication system, etc.), wouldn't this translate into better lubrication for the lifter rollers at those speeds, and a corresponding increase in lifter life?

That was my main reasoning for the HV pump, I won't argue about the other points, because I agree completely smile.gif If I was building this engine for endurance or the quarter mile, I'd use a standard pump.

( oh boy... what have I got myself into...just promise that my bony arse won't be on the wolf menu if I ever drop by and say "Hi!" smile.gif )

John

I am running a High Volume (not high pressure) oil pump on my motor, and clearences aren't loose at all. I am typically around 80-90lbs of oil pressure at start up and after the car is warmed up it is around 50# at idle (20W-50 oil).

My dad use to run an 14qt. drag boat pan dry (point to where when he looked back at the motor after a pass the oil pressure was coming back up)with his Blown Gas Motor. However in his case he had the crank cross drilled which required the high pressure/high volume pump.

In cases such as yours I can see the std pump working fine.

Originally posted by Mike Feudo:
Never in a street car. The old thought was to control the amount of oil up top to keep it from leaking down the guides and to help the oil pressure at the bearings. New way of thinking now they actually put external oil sources to the valve gear to try to keep the valve springs cooler and extend their life. Yeah, I phoned a fella by the name of Jeff Johnson, and he did the spray bar deal in his billet covers {which I own}, but it was not a cheap deal.

If concerned about solid roller lifter life, I'd say the best thing is to run a (true) bearing pressure fed lifter. I doubt more idle oil pressure will help much if the lifter isn't up to the task.

I'd say Mike would agree smile.gif

I'm using the Red Zones in my new 491.

Doug,

I've got the Crower with the high pressure pin oiling. They came out before the Red Zones. WIll see how well they last.

I've been playing around with the C950 software the last few nights. If EA Pro is right, I'd need 52 lbs/hr to keep it below .85. Have a chance to pick up High Z 60lb units, but I'm thinking they might cause idle problems.

Hope that 491 is progressing smoothly! smile.gif

John

Originally posted by TD509EFI:
Hi Mike,

Lol, thanks for the education, can't say I don't need it!:0

I guess my biggest concern, and my reason for using the HV pump, is those solid roller lifters operating at low speed on the street. Granted, on a race negine this isn't really a concern, the standard pump works great since you're always up in the power band. We all know that the biggest problem with solid roller lifters is getting them to live on the street, due to a lack of low speed lubrication. Since a HV pump would provide higher pressure at low speeds ( all else being equal, bearing clearances, lubrication system, etc.), wouldn't this translate into better lubrication for the lifter rollers at those speeds, and a corresponding increase in lifter life?

That was my main reasoning for the HV pump, I won't argue about the other points, because I agree completely smile.gif If I was building this engine for endurance or the quarter mile, I'd use a standard pump.

( oh boy... what have I got myself into...just promise that my bony arse won't be on the wolf menu if I ever drop by and say "Hi!" smile.gif )

John =
John,
LOL, no we don't feed hardly anybody to the "babies"
And you are welcome to come by any time,,

Assuming of course you don't "pump your pan dry" on the way with that huge pump :D :D

And your question about the lifters is a great reason not to get sucked into the great restrictor debate :(

If you stop to consider how much oil just a standard pump will deliver even when turning it by hand you can see were the lifters are not going to run out of oil at any time if they are pressure fed to the needles.
The only two lifters on the market that I know of that actually feed pressurized oil to the needles are Isky & Crower with the pressure oiling option. Pressure oiling on Isky's is standard.
The only reason you have any oil pressure at all is because there is a restriction to the flow.
Look at an engine with needle bearing lowers like a Hawg,, it has virtually zero oil pressure at idle but runs along quite happily under this condition for a long time.
The reason you have an oil pump is because you need oil delivered to lubricate.
The actual pressure has very little to do with the lubrication process of your bearings or rollers.
It is the film strength of the lubricant & the action of the oil "wedge" that keeps the parts apart.
I think is has a big words like "hydrodynamic pressure" but stuff like that hurts my head :rolleyes:

And your Crower's are an excellent lifter.
If it weren't for the Red Zones they would be my choice.

Hi Doug graemlins/thumbsup.gif

John,
What peak HP and BSFC are you inputting?

If I remember from a few days ago :( you have 50 lb/hr injectors right now?

Do you ever plan on more HP in the future?

Mike,

When I finally get it on the road and ready for a Power Tour, I'll drop by on the way. Thanks once again for the enlightenment. Always appreciated. smile.gif

Doug,

The C950 came with 42lb injectors and 2000CFM TB.
When I ran the numbers on EA Pro v3.3 using AFR 315 CNC heads, the cam specs, added accessories and full exhaust, it spat out 713hp@ 65-6600, 624tq @ 5200. The DD software was even higher. Those numbers need closer to a 55lb injector to be safe, and give a little room to grow smile.gif

I had expected around 625-650hp, so I felt the 42lb injectors would work with a bit of pressure tweeking. If the engine makes closer to 700hp, I'd have to crank the fuel pressure a bit over 60lbs to keep the duty cycle below 90%. Getting up there, and close to the max lph output of the Walbro pump. Perhaps someone such as Mike or youself would like to comment on expected output. If the makes 625 I'll be happy, no need for different injectors or pump!

sapper92310, my appologies for hijacking your post, but I'm not running restrictors on my build.

John

At 700, I'd rather have 50+ than 42's, although they would get you by most likely with a bit more fuel pressure to keep the DC down.

You shouldn't have idle problems with those 60's.

Okay Doug, thanks for your insight, guess I'll try the 42's for now, but just to be on the safe side, up the pressure to 50 and try it from there.

Thanks!

John