in the last 2 days i have degreed 2 small block cams one was an Ultradyne 276 Solid Flat Tappet in a 350 the other was a Lunati 276/284 Solid flat tappet in a 383. i used the intake centerline method both times. Both of these cams are supposed to be on a 110 lobe seperation and are "supposed" to have 4 degrees advanced into the cam. the first cam i did was in the 350 i kept getting 110 iCL?? so then i checked the exhaust and got 110ICL so i figured it must be a 110 lobe seperation with NO advance in teh cam? then i checked the lunati 276/284 and basically came up with the exact same thing!! i tried taking the numbers of the lifter and the valve retainer
I first find TDC by using my dial indicator on the piston, i then check it by measuring on the degree wheel .020 before and after TDC and make sure they are the same amount. Once TDC is found and triple checked to make sure it is right i mount the dial indicator on the top of the valve retainer put the rocker arm at zero lash and roll the engine over till full lift, then zero the dial indicator, i then go backwars to .010 then go fowards till i get to .050 and mark down the number on the wheel, i then keep going till .050 closing and mark down that number, then i take the 2 numbers and average them. I have tried this on directly on the lifter and came up with the exact same numbers. On the 350 we advanced the crank gear and then re degreed it, and came up with 106 which is exactly where we wanted it, so it seems consistent and i think i am doing it right. i thought before i advanced the 383 the same i would check to make sure i was doing it right. Also it doesn't seem like we are getting the correct lift numbers either on the 383 on the intake i only could get .490 lift instead of the .512 we were supposed to have with zero lash, i have been triple checking everything including TDC correct plunger angle and making sure the dial indicator comes back to 0. So either i am retarded or everyone with either a Lunati/Ultradyne small block cam better DEGREE YOUR CAM!!
BTW i put a 288/296 BBC solid flat tappet ultradyne cam and degreed it the same way and got 107 ICL the cam had a 112 lobe seperation so that cam seemed fine

Cody,
A few sugestions ;)

First, do not use your dial indicator to find TDC.
Use a positive stop.

Second, always degree the cam at the lifter & check lobe lift not cam lift.Then multiply by rocker ratio.
You induce way too many variables any other way.

Third, You want to go .050" down on either side of the center of the lobe, not to the .050" timing numbers as the opening & closing sides of the cam may not be the same & this will skew the centerline.
The apparent centerline can be in two different places using the .050 timing numbers from the base circle vs. just going .050 on either side of max lobe lift.

Ruh Roh.... I used the piston stop, and checked the lift on the retainer at zero lash with the solid cam. Did I fubar again?! I couldn't fit the dial indicator in under the head on the lifter. it was at too funky of an angle to measure correctly there...... 1.6 rockers. Guess my .050 lift wasn't really .050 lift. Should get the right numbers though since I'm going down the same amount on each side...?

Okay i didn't measure the lift at the lobe but i will try that, but i did eveyrthing else you said, i went .050 before and after full lift meaning .050 before full lift and after full lift and mark the numbers on the wheel, i didn't move the wheel? so i don't see anything that i did wrong, i am starting to think they have their heads up their butts. i did some searches and saw others had the same probs with these cams, Harold makes some good powerfull cams but his grinders or cam blanks seem to suck. if i did somehting wrong i will eat my words, but everythign seems to check in correctly.

For you, maybe it was just the keyway that was off from the getgo? Also read somewhere Harold saying there are too many variances and errors in blocks/keyways/timing chains etc.

That those errors dont mean anything, just get the ICL to the proper point in relation to the piston however needbe.

Originally posted by Twilightoptics:
Ruh Roh.... I used the piston stop, and checked the lift on the retainer at zero lash with the solid cam. Did I fubar again?! I couldn't fit the dial indicator in under the head on the lifter. it was at too funky of an angle to measure correctly there...... 1.6 rockers. Guess my .050 lift wasn't really .050 lift. Should get the right numbers though since I'm going down the same amount on each side...? =
=
The .050 on either side of max lift is unimportant as long as you are using the same amount.
You could use .020 or .060 or whatever as long as it is the same & close to the the max lift point.
You can also measure the max lift point at the valve but I would use light springs so it is eaiser to control finding max lift.
I feel it is better to measure at the lifter if possible, less chances for mistakes.

If you are getting the same readings a few times at full valve lift you should be fine.

Cody,
Just check TDC with a stop.
You are probably fine but it is real easy to be off of TDC a few degrees with an indicator.
If you are going .050 on either side of max lift & not doing it from .050 off the base circle you are doing it correctly
You said you were going to .010 as a starting point which led me to believe you were using .050 timing numbers ;)

sorry to confuse, no i went to .10 before full lift and then went back to .050 before lift, i guess you are supposed to go back first so then you can go clockwise to get the slack out of the timing chain. but i was basically doing it off of the full lift not the base cirlce. so i guess these cams just suck. well i will degree the 383 with the crank gear. thanks

Maybe your timing chain gears "suck".

I'm in the same boat trying to degree my cam and keep getting different figures. I had a lot of different variables using a dial indicator to get my full lift. Sometime it's at 350, next 353, than 348. so I figured i'm off just a few degree's and the mistake lies with me (first time degreeing a cam). I have given up trying to find all the information to match the card and have use several different methods. My TDC is correct and she is installed straight up so I hope everything else will fall into place.

Cody,

Of course YOU are responsible for putting the cam in at the right place. No cam company has control over all the variables in an engine, such as the accuracy of piston dome placement, or piston pin offset, or proper crank angularity, or position of crank keyway, or manufacture and accuracy of timing gear sets. All these contribute both positive and negative errors to cam position, as well as normal manufacturing tolerances in the camshaft.
You are basically doing the measurement correct. Once you have found TDC, preferrably by the positive-stop method,do as WolfPlace suggested. I have used the .050"-down method since 1975, and have found it to be as accurate as you can get. All my cams are unsymmetrical, and measurements around .020" are tricky.
I am sorry that you are having trouble, though. If you get either cam anywhere between 103° and 106° ATDC, it is in there just fine and go ahead and run it.
Sometimes get me to tell everyone about the cam ground at GK that was 85° retarded. It was installed correctly and ran for over 7 years, hitting 9000+ RPM on a number of ocassions.

UDHarold

Originally posted by cody:
so i guess these cams just suck :rolleyes:

Sounds to me like the lower timing gear was installed at the 4º retarded position instead of the straight up position. Maybe not but would explain the readings Cody is getting.

Troy.

Cody, that's right they suck. Suck much air/fuel in and get a fat 4000 lbs street car down the 1/4 at 118 mph.

BTW, using Harold's quick-n-dirty method I had the cam prefectly degreed in about 40 minutes. Roughed it up using the Q-n-D, setup the wheel, couldn't get repeatability on the intake since my setup was unstable, setup on the exhaust and it hit 76/74.5/75.5 degrees, spot on.(+6-7)

And I am CLEARLY not any sort of a pro. Poor amatuer status, at best. I do really think the Q-n-D methjod is best for amatuers. Why? Although I used to be a machinists apprentice in a past life, setting up a dial correctly and getting repeatability is not that easy. Especially using cheap Chinese mag base.

So yeah, it's you man. And me, and a bunch of others.

Cody I degreed my first UD cam this spring and had a heck of a time like you. I finally listened to Harolds method closely and then was real careful on ever reading I took. It came up perfect.

First of all I am doing it correctly, that is not the problem, and second it is consistent as hell, i have done this 3 or 4 times and ALWAYS got the exact same thing. We used a Edelbrock double roller on the 350, COmp double roller on the 383. And no the crank gear is on right, 100% sure. Also uisng the dial indicator to find TDC is working great for me, i have double checked it different ways and it always comes up right on the dot. Yes it DOES suck that these cams are coming up so out of whack, on my 454/ultradyne it was off my 1 degree adn that was fine and expected(bought the cam the same time as the ultradyne 350 small block cam), but what you guys don't get is that there is NO advance in these cams!! Because i checked the lobe seperations by also degreeing the exhaust valve and then averaging the intake/exhaust and come up with 110 so someone is forgetting to advance the cams, you would think they woudl check their cam blanks. So there could be a ton of unsuspecting guys out there with these cams that didn't degree them that wonder why there engine isn't running like they thought. I am not having a hard time degreeing the cams i just wanted to make sure i wasn't doing something wrong! since i got 2 bad cams in a row.

I think you're doing it wrong graemlins/clonk.gif :rolleyes:

You see I'm too stupid to care about what's 'in' the grind, and too smart to assume a damn thing. So I wouldn't have cared whether it was ground straight up, +2, +4, +8, +10 whatever, it means NOTHING when you put the cam in the engine and set the timing gears up and begin the degreeing. THE RELEVANT RELATIONSHIP IS THE TIMING BETWEEN THE CAM AND CRANK NOT THE LOBES AND CAM PIN.

If you feel the blanks were wrong without 4 in, I hear you. But when it comes to actual degreeing, it wouldn't matter what was 'in' the cam albeit to give you a place to set the timing gear/crank gear to start.

I encourage folks to use the 'loose' quick methd to get it close, then break out the degree wheel and dial to check it. Shoot for .050-.070" closer intake valve, and it should get you right in that +4-6 range. MUCH easier monkeying with an offset bushing when you're doing a visual 'rough' check.

Cody,
As I said, it sounds like you are doing it correctly except for finding TDC.
There is a very valid reason for using the positive stop method.
It is because of bearing clearances, piston rock at TDC etc.
You are getting repeatable reading which is fine but you could be getting repeatable reading 2 or 3 degrees off if your base TDC accuracy is off.
When you ask questions please take the time to read all of the answer & then try to implement it.
You are getting the benefit of in Harold's I my answers probably a combined 70+ years of experience in doing things both in mistakes made & lessons learned.
If you get a suggestion try it. If you don't like it fine but at the least give us the respect of trying it after taking the time to answer you.
I am not saying I am right & you are wrong, rather telling you what has worked the best for well over 30 years in my case.
If you are going to build performance engines you are going to run into problems along the way.
Don't whine about them, fix them.
Part of building these things is the frustration of finding problems & the pride of getting them right.
In my opinion a junk part is one that is manufactured of inferior material or is machined improperly to the point that you cannot address the problem.
A performence cam that has the advance ground differently assuming this is the case is not an inferior cam.
It is up to you as the engine builder to install it correctly.
A set of rods that hit the side of the block does not make them inferior, again it is your responsibility to build the engine correctly.
This means you check everything about 50 times, correct what is amuck & bitch about the things that are crap & you can't easily fix with some time & patience.
Again if you are building performance engines it goes with the territory.

Just my opinions of course :D

Gene, when you say the quick-n-dirty method, do you mean just lining up the dots or is there another way to rough it in before degreeing?

I think you are taking this the wrong way. I understand what you are saying about TDC but i believe i am getting the correct reading, not only am i making sure that the piston is at the very top of its travel I am also measuring the numbers on the wheel before and past TDC .020 and making sure they are the same exactly, also i spin the motor around a few times and come back to check it again, and also the dots line up exactly and it is very consistent so i don't think there are any variables there. just for the hell of it i will try with a piston stop, but the fact that when we put the crank gear 4 degrees advanced and then set the entire thing up again i got exaclyt 106. I am not downing anybody. I also wasnt' trying to argue. But it seems clear now that i was doing it correctly. Also i listen to you and harold, I like Ultradyne/Lunati cams for there power and always have been a fan, I am the one who told these guys to buy these cams, but when i see bad parts i call it. I mean IMO your comparison isn't correct. What about if you checked your rod opening and it wans't round? or the clearance was way off? or they forgot to put in the bronze bushing for the floating pistons? Also i didn't say the cams didn't make good power, Another big point that i am making is yes you should check everything you buy, but if they are telling you our cams have 4 degrees advanced in them and they don't, then the cam wasn't made properly period. They should of checked that, it wasn't off 1 or 2 degrees because of tolerances they didn't have any advance in them! How many people do you think are out there that just installed their cam straight up and it was messed up? It wouldn't be such a big deal but to have 2 cams in a row!! I was very competent when degreeing the cams but it made me question how i was doing it when i got 2 the same! also i understand about things not working and having to modify. i understand all that stuff, This isn't my first engine i have built nor first car i have built. I am merely warning everyone that there cam could of been made wrong. I am not a blind follower of things, neither am i a someone who settles, i like theings exact no doubt about it, so i will not just be like "oh well" it should be fine. i am very anal!
p.s.
it is hard to listen and implement things when retards are just saying "you did it wrong" or "who cares just put it wherever" "its your fault" "you are responsible for our mistakes" and even worse when they can't say why!

Originally posted by cody:
it is hard to listen and implement things when retards are just saying "you did it wrong" :rolleyes: graemlins/boring.gif

hey 4speed how did you cam degree in?

fourfiddyfour, well I did use a stop for TDC becuase I knew from experience with the heads on, it was the way to go ( although I had marked TDC prior, using a dial AND a stop on the balancer).

The quick and dirty method is simply watching the cam work the #1 valves as you come up on #6 TDC> The exhasut is closing at this point and intake is opening. As you get to #TDC you want to see the intake PASS the exhaust on the way down and stop slightly closer to the head, as measured from the retainer. This is advanced. If they are even , it's close to straight up, and if the exhaust is still lower than the intake valve ( as it was in my professionally assembled motor), then the cam is in retarded.

I literally flipped the cam bushing around some and ran the motor around to #6 TDC. It was close, but the bushing needed another tweak, and finally I got it so the intake valve was about .065 closer to the head surface than the exhaust, i.e., the intake has passed the exhuast valve on the way open. THEN I put a wheel on it. Dead nuts. Was surpised I was so close. Torqued the cam bolts, put the retainers on them and that was it. 40 minutes. By a mope like me. Only thing is, I did have true TDC marked on my dampner. I would use a piston stop so that you don't ASSUME the dampner timing mark is correct. This is for assembled, in the car deals.

Again, I don't care what is 'ground in the cam'. Using Harold's method you get it super close, and then degree it. Why Cody's were off, I don't know, but as long as the lobe timing/separation was on, who cares. Maybe the damn pin bore was off by .010". That'll do it. If they were off, I'm Harold would want to know about it, so he can get back to manufactuering that soethign is amiss.

One thing I've learned, never ASSUME anything. Cam company says there's 4 in the grind, yeah whatever, use the 0 keyway and setup #1 valves to do the quick check. If the intake is way closer to the head surface, sure too much. But now you know where you are , roughly, without assuming anything ( which is good), and it takes about 10 minutes vs. the full degree wheel process. Plus fiddling with a cam bushing is a pain if you have to deal with a wheel as well. Although I would check your timing with a wheel before you set the cam bolts.

Some shadetree stuff to go along with the professionals like Mike and Harold. Ina shop, on a stand, a degree wheel makes sense. In a car, in a garage, quick and dirty gets it close, or in my dumb luck case, Spot on. Can't tell you how much time that saved.

Heck man, the professional shop that put the motor together should have checked cam timing via quick and dirty. They had it -6!

thanks Gene. Thats a good thing to know, especially for troubleshooting or checking an engine that is in the car like you said.

Originally posted by cody:
hey 4speed how did you cam degree in? How my cam degreed in is NOT the issue..


..and calling people a "retard" is NOT acceptable..I'm hoping that was NOT directed at me either.Gene and Mike offered great advice and experience on this thread,good info as usual.
Remember,you're the one that asked for the reality check...the title of the thread is:
Having problems degreeing both Ultradyne cam AND Lunati cam! is it me???

..and I apologize for not adding anything "constructive" or helpful to your thread..I only inquired if you where doing it incorrectly.

it was directed towards you. You had nothing better to say then "you are doing it wrong" obviously you have no experience degreeing cams, have never done it before, and since you are on the harold bandwagon you had to put your 2 cents in, which is unacceptable, please think next time before you post. I think Harold has nothing to do with the cam issue, so stop defending him, i was stating that these companies need to start checking there cams, I bet you anything that if i would of said these were comp cams no one would of started talking mess!! Jeez sometimes this site gets really petty.

:rolleyes: http://www.frostjedi.com/phpbb/images/smiles/nono.gif

So like, can someone lock this thread before it gets out of hand?


There is a reason we have degree wheels and don't just line up marks.

There is a reason that on my Lunati cam card it states to degree the cam, and also says : "The above center line will make this cam (X amount advanced). "

It's YOUR responsibility to install it on that centerline reguardless of what is built into it.

When we are building performance engines, you go the extra step to degree it and such. If you are just throwing things together then you probably aren't buying a Harold Cam, and you probably aren't going to use a degree wheel, and you probably aren't going to be trying to crank every last ounce of HP out of it.

If the postivie stop method yeilds the same results then so be it. There are many valid points in this topic, and I know I couldn't get the right readings without a stop.

Can't we all just get along?? graemlins/beers.gif

Cody,
First of all ... I am not going to defend anyone, or tell you that you are doing something wrong. But .. I will say that you have not done enough checking to say without a doubt that the camshafts were manufactured improperly. I have a brand new 502 GM crate short block at the shop that I am changing the cam for marine use. Today, I put in the new Comp hydraulic roller cam in the block and checked it. The card calls for the cam to be installed at 110 deg icl, but I am getting 105. So is the cam made wrong ??? I dont know at this point. The only way to tell for sure would be to put it on a cam doctor and check it. If the brand new GM timing set is made wrong, I really have no way of checking it. If the crank keyways were machined wrong from the factory, I have no way of checking it without taking the engine apart. The point is, I do not know what is wrong at this point. All I know is that the cam is not at 110 dgrees like the card calls for so ... out comes the drill and the degree bushings and 15 minutes later, its fixed. Now I have probably installed 100 Comp Cams camshafts and this is the about the third one that I have found that was not within a degree or so of the cam card, but that does not mean that this cam is wrong.
Now I know you are using good parts, and I think your method of checking is ok, even though I prefer a tdc stop, but the fact is you have not proven that the cam is made wrong until you check everything else that can change camshaft timing. After owning a machine shop for 17 years, I can guarantee you that I have seen incorrectly made timing sets, crankshafts, dampers, flywheels, etc etc etc. And not just the cheap stuff, believe me !
Once again, my only point to all of this is ... do not say a part is made wrong, until you know it for a fact. If you are that concerned about it, send the cam back to Lunati and have them check it, or pay someone with a cam doctor to check it for you.
Now ... try something real interesting ... see how the cam checks on #6 cylinder smile.gif

Just my opinion,

Here is what CODY last ask about Harold's ,Lunati's cams & degreeing ! graemlins/clonk.gif

web page (http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=018138#000001)

UPDATE; i used a piston stop that i had and it came out identical. also Billk brings up some good points. but wouldnt degreeing the exhaust lobe and averaging the numbers tell you what the lobe seperation was? Wouldnt' you use the cam doctor to actually measure the lift and duration? It seems everyone is dodging what exactly what i am saying. and yes rcatala i did have that post, but i don't see how that is supposed to make me look bad? many other people had the same misconceptions in that post. also is it possible that i had 2 bad crank gears from 2 different companies?? doesn't seem likely. Whatever i give up, you guys do whatever you want, I see i am not in the "In club" over here at team chevelle, I guess you guys can stay in the past installing your cams wrong using quick and lazy methods, or just saying forget about it, or this is good enough. Another point i was trying to make is that it might be possible that the cam blanks they are recieving were made wrong and they aren't checking them? i am not sure how their process goes but its just an idea. I don't get it? i post results of a potential problem, and i get flamed for it! Its funny how you guys will say all of the comp cams suck and they don't run good and they all go flat, but as soon as someone questions this "secret" company everyone gets their panties in a bundle. Well i will advance the crand gear 4 degrees recheck it and install it on 106 where it is supposed to be. just like i did with the other, but i will never put a cam in doing some hokey method or just not degreeing it all together, this was a good lesson. Not only do performance parts not work or fit sometimes but they are made wrong too! I think that no one is getting the point here, i am not trying to just whine about how the cams were, if they were 1 or 2 degrees off, i would happily just fix it and be on my way, when there is a problem that could potentially cause a lot of peoples engines to not run the way they should i will say so, also the fact that 2 seperate cams had the exact same thing! I mean i keep saying the same thing and no one seems to get the point. Take it however you want i personally always degree every cam so i don't have much to worry about, but some of you can keep defending and putting your cams in wrong
p/s/
i also thinks its crappy that cam companies can say "our cam has x amount of advance in it already" and then when something goes wrong say "it is not our problem or our fault"

Originally posted by cody:
it was directed towards you. You had nothing better to say then "you are doing it wrong" obviously you have no experience degreeing cams, have never done it before, and since you are on the harold bandwagon you had to put your 2 cents in, which is unacceptable, please think next time before you post. I think Harold has nothing to do with the cam issue, so stop defending him, i was stating that these companies need to start checking there cams, I bet you anything that if i would of said these were comp cams no one would of started talking mess!! Jeez sometimes this site gets really petty. Since when did I say I never degreed a cam before :confused: And when was I defending Harold? :confused:
You are clearly the one turning this into a personal issue,and I don't appreciate it.
Please quote where I have said in this thread I never degreed a cam (or any other thread for that matter),or was defending Harold

Cody - I get the point, I just think your delivery is a little harsh. You asked for help and got repeated responses from three different guys that comprise 90+ years of engine building experience. That's kinda why I like TC.

As for performance parts sucking - I don't know of a single parts company that isn't guilty of cutting corners to improve profit. With smaller companies, the corner cutting doesn't get very far, but with the bigger guys it always winds up on the customer's plate. I bought a "hardcore" 427 sbc crate from Bill Mitchell purported to dyno at 550hp - supposedly chock full of "top shelf" parts. It was one huge stinking pile of corner-cutting-bottom-of-the-parts-bin crap. Ran for < 200miles and had to be rebuilt. The warranty was a complete scam to boot. When I posted the info in TC - complete with the horrific tolerances and crap parts to back up my claim - my thread got shut down immediately - everyone was freaking out that TC would get sued for vendor bashing.

Few people really understand how LITTLE MONEY these supposed big guys have. Edelbrock and Holley both have pretty sad financials for all the "market-leader" claims they make.

UDHarold helped me out a couple of times in the past - he is rock solid in my book. I was even one of the guys that offered to pony up some bridge financing for him when that idea was being tossed around. I'd imagine there are some things UDH can control and some he can't in his new role. Manufacturing flaws are just a way of life these days - too many middle men, too many subcontractors, not enough QC.

If you're feeling a real penchant for vindication, you can always retain an attorney and spin up a class action. Heck, I just read the other day about Hyundai/Kia having to cough up hundreds of millions for mis-stating HP rating as 181 instead of the 174 it really was. Fraud is fraud - if it bugs you, fight it. Or, you can do what you're doing - albeit perhaps with better manners - carry the message and let people know what to stay away from.....

However the information gets to me, if it keeps me out of trouble, I appreciate it.

Best,

Mike H.

what i dont get, is why you're upset that the cam isnt on a 106..... If it isnt were you want it, then put it where you want it and be done with it!

if the Lobe seperation was off then you have a problem that you might look into having another one ground. But! you can easily change the ICL.


Sometimes the GM cranks are pretty far off, far enough that sometimes you cant grind them on an index! that could be a part of the problem! I bet many "low cost" aftermarket cranks are in the same boat.


if you still think its the cam grinders fault, then find another cam ground on whatever LSA, and see if it lines up! Use the same gears!

look i am sorry if i came off wrong but what am i typing wrong? Still no one sees my point! I am not mad at harold or Wolfplace. I from the beginning never said it had anything to do with UDHarold. Everyone took it that way, i am not mad that it isnt't where it supposed to be, for the millionth time, my point is 1. that these cams do not have any advance ground into them 2. they are letting these cams out of the manufacturing, makes you wonder if they even check them or the cam blanks they get? what else do they let by? 3. I was merely trying to warn people that the old way of thinking of just installing a cam dot to dot is NOT a good idea, it might not be off by just 1 or2 degrees, it could be WAY off. So you should check your cams. That is all i was saying! the first post was just a check to make sure i did it right before i posted that these cams were made incorrectly, not off, Wrong. Then everyone wanted to start saying i didn't know what i was doing, and blew it out of proportion. I know a LOT of people who just install their cams dot to dot. I used to think that was okay and it would get you in the ballpark, but these engines were most likely run like crap straight up. So there it is. take it for what it is worth, i appreciate Wolfplaces advise, but i think it was the only post that was worth anything.
p.s.
for the second time i doubt it was the gears fault if you read the entire post you will see that i ran 2 different brands on 2 different engines. also i checked the Lobe Seperation and it was correct. does anyone read anymore? tongue.gif graemlins/waving.gif

it could be the crank. was your crank reground on an index?

use two or more different timing arrangments on the same engine before drawing any conclusions.

from what i read you used two different arrangments on two different engines with two different cams, what does that prove?

This was one very informative - heeelarious too.

Mike, Harold, Bill, Gene, Brian, et al - this is how the rest of us learn. In the software world, we talk about man-years of expertise in algorithm development. I count, sans problem child's posts, 200 or so years of combined expertise attending to this issue alone. All for a $25 membership? Now that's high value!

Mike

Cody says, "I was merely trying to warn people that the old way of thinking of just installing a cam dot to dot is NOT a good idea, it might not be off by just 1 or2 degrees, it could be WAY off. "

Absolutely, we had a semantic arguement maybe a year ago, where folks thought 'straight up' meant dot-to-dot. au contraire.

Look, I nearly failed "Technical Writing" as a sophmore. Elective. So I understand how when speaking of things technically, it's real easy to use the wrong language and convey the wrong idea.

Oh man again not what i meant, but gene you are correct about that topic awhile back, what i meant in that quote is that if someone just installed their cam in the engine dot to dot like many do, they would think okay my cam is on a 110 lobe seperation X cam company told me that this cam has about 4 degrees in it so that should put it at a 106 ICL give or take a degree due to variances in the engine. What i was warning is that you can't even depend on these compnaies to even grind the advance in the cam, not that it might be off due to manufacturin variances and engine variances but that the cam was not properly made that there might not be any advance like they told you. So you would be installing the cam "straight up" (i.e. same ICL as lobe seperation) i have never heard of but only in rare situations where a cam is going to run very good straight up compared to advanced. I mean what a lot of you is saying is true, You should degree the cam and even if it is way off; FIX IT. i have not argued this point once, as a matter of fact that is what i have been saying all along. I was just making a point that this isn't a variance or something that can't be helped. I guess I could compare it to soemone buying a set of heads and the company tells you that they great flowing heads so you put them on your car and they don't make it at all faster, in fact it is slower, then by chance you have them flowed and oh look they don't flow worth crap! then the manufacture tells you Oh well you should just fix the heads, you should port them and stop complaining you should also check and flow every set of heads we sell you because they could be crappy at any time and we don't hold any responsibility I mean even though we told you that the flowed X amount it could really be anywhere. Also its not our fault your car runs like crap it could be all kinds of things not just our poorly flowing heads. I know that is not the best example but just to give you an idea.

After reading all this I went to the garage and degreed my cam again. At first I was just going to be believe what the cam card said, but after degree I found my centerline to be 106. I check the lift using my solid lifter VT-1992 w/dial indicator and base. The following number was consistant the yesterday when I was trying. My exhaust lift was very close at 353, however the intake was off a bit .006 at 344, cam card says 350. Then I thought it will be wise to check another cam lobe so I moved to #6 with the exact same reading. This is something that i'm glad I check before bolting her up and not knowing the true specs of my cam. I have a Cloyes 3 Key crank gear and installed it dot to dot, so I have my 4* advance. Im not worried about the difference in what the card say and what I have because this is a street car and I will be happy just to beat up on my friends 5.0 GT. Lesson learned ALWAYS degree your cam. It removes a lot of doubt. What I don't know is how much performance will I lose by have the Intake with less lift than stated?
Dave ;)