Well after 2 years, my car is finally to the point of starting the motor. I made sure evertying was functional before actually starting it up. The front clip still needs to go on, and the brakes aren't finished yet but i started it today. Here is the scenerio, i have a 468 with an ultradyne 288/296 solid flat tappet with comp cams solid lifters. I pulled the inner valve springs out, ran a quart of GM EOS, and used a ton of cranes grey paste cam break in lube. THe first time i tried to start it the carb completely flooded and had a geyser coming out of the vent tube. It was a sticky needle and seat. Then it cranked and didn't fire, then i HATED to do this, but i cranked and cranked graemlins/sad.gif I know how to set a motor up and have done it a lot of times before, but this was a complete car build. Then after some cranking i came back today and found out i had some issues with the MSD system. I fixed the issues, and realized the oile smelled like gas, so i guess it flooded before and the oil mixed with the gas. SO i dumped the oil and filled it back up and put some more EOS in it, but i had already primed the motor with the gas in the oil and crnaked it some. So i fixed the oil and msd and had to crank more and more :mad: graemlins/sad.gif . I can't believe i had to crank this motor so much, i truly expected it to fire right away..... So finally i get it running, and it runs like a beast!....until i notice the passenger side valvce cover is ticking real loud. So i shut it down and check it out and one of the poly locks is super loose!!! SO i tighten it back up to spec hoping it was just a mishap. THen i go ahead and break the cam in some more. Well it still kinda ticks but is better, then i can't really say but i noticed the ticking again on teh same passenger side. Nothing is extremley loose but a few rocker arms have way too much slack in them. so i put a dial indicator on 2 of them and adjust it to zero lash and only get about 550 lift and 520 lift, and i am supposed to have 612 and 630. So i assume i have a super flat cam? possilby from the cranking and the gas in the oil. Tomorrow i will have to cut open the filter and check it out,, but i think my chances are grim. I took all of the precautions but i might be another failure. Its going to be a PITA to take it all apart, as everything is SUPER detailed and put togehter very nicely. Any suggestions, tips or help? thanks!
this is a awful feeling, but maybe i will have to go solid roller now?

ttt

Personally i like to Prime the Oiling system prior to firing, i mean the Absolutely, postively last thing that i do before firing the engine is prime the oil system.

On my engine i removed both valve covers and made certain oil was coming out of the top of every pushrod, which i feel is of primary importance.

second, the lash needs to be checked with the EOIC + go/no go to make absolutely certain that there are no loose rockers prior to the initial firing. A loose rocker will beat the cam up.

The distributor must be stabbed in correctly to fire up the engine Immediatly and not too much fuel.

I had trouble getting my engine to immediatly fire when breaking it in (wayyyyy too much timing). Since then i've spent a great deal of time and practice in stabbing in the distributor correctly right off the get go.
I can now stab it in to +/- 2 degrees of timing most of the time.

I hit it with one to two squirts of fuel and if it doesnt fire immediatly, ethier too much fuel or something is wrong.

You should read some of RACER1320's posts on how to fire up the engine immediatly and break-in effectively, as fallowing Ed's procedures has always worked for me.

Cody, it may not be "textbook correct", but I always shoot in a little starter fluid to make sure a new engine fires up instantly. Of course the ignition should be spot on, everything gets rechecked immediately if more than a couple of crankings go by without firing up.

Is the engine block one that you have used successfully in the past? I ask because anything can happen, and maybe something is not as square as it should be in relation to other parts of the cam/lifter.

Thomas

no never used the block before, but i saw the motor running before this build, however only the block and crank are being used from the prior build. How much do cams usually go flat with only 15 minutes run time and lots of cranking? I know all about the correct procedures and did more this time than any other bui8ld. It would be really cool if the cam wasn't flat, but I am wondering if such thing, how flat do cams go wihtin this time frame? I must of had about .040-.050 clearance on a few rockers. Other than that, once it started everything was perfect! no leaks from anything whatsoever, no squeals, hesitation, nothing broke. Everything worked good!! I really hoped since i only had dampners/outer springs and lots of eos and cam paste that i would be okay, but maybe the gas in the oil wiped that all off? any input is great!

Just read brians post. here is how i prepped the motor prior to start up
1. adjusted valves using EOIC method, put lash at .022 on every valve cold
2. Used the crane grey cam paste that has the good ingrediants in it, used a LOT. Used 2 quarts of EOS, 6 quarts of chevron oil 30wt, and a K+N oil filter. Motor was built meticulously clean, also pushrods were correct length. Inner valve springs were also removed prior to fire up
3. checked spark on the msd
4. turned the electric fuel pump on(after spewing gas all over the place from too much pressure and then a stuck needle and seat) adjust the floats, then adjust mixture screws. Also adjust idle to make sure the blades are open
5. Double check the firing order on spark plug wires
6. Prime the motor with a homemade tool, a points distributor modified to use a 1/2 chuck drill, primed it for about 2 minutes on high speed, got about 60ilbs of pressure
7. find TDC on motor, put the balancer at 12 BTDC, stab distributor in and set rotor pointing directly at #1 spark plug wire
8. check everything all over again
9. then fire away
10. if it runs let it run at 2500 rpm for a about a minute to let the ceramic coated headers heat up and cool down. THen i do about 2-3 10min runs revving the engine from 2200-2800rpm. Dump the oil and filter and refill. Then get on teh freeway and let the motor accelerate and decelarate, then about 50 miles later change oil again

Cody, I have had two flat tappet cams go flat after only about 5 minutes of running. My problem was spring pressure I believe, as everything else was done correctly. But Im just saying it doesnt take long at all. Best of luck to you, maybe it's not what you think.

All the prep in the world won't help the cam lobes if poor quality oil got anywhere near them before they were run in and if it was cranked alot to fire, as it sure sounds like it did. You know how critical that is. You messed up. Don't take it personal - it happens. Now its time to drain the engine back out and pull the intake I think, after the oil filter element is examined. Magnetic particles are the cam lobes.

I've been lucky with this, a few friends havent.

If it's a points distributor, before cranking you can static time it: rotate the balancer to the idle timing mark, loosen the clamp and rotate the distributor housing (relative to the block), when the light fires, lock the dist down. An electronic ign usually needs more cranking speed for the above method to work, however, with those, you can put the timing light on and check it while cranking (this will get you close).

it idled for a minute? It needs to immediatly see about 2500rpms.

"If it's a points distributor, before cranking you can static time it"

I knew that there had to be SOME benefit to a points system. We used to set the crank at the desired timing and the rotor pointing at the appropriate terminal and insert a scrap of cigarette paper between the points. Rotate distributor until paper released and snug up the clamp. Crude and effective "back in the old days".

My $0.02

Originally posted by Motor Martyr:
it idled for a minute? It needs to immediatly see about 2500rpms. Definitely...otherwise theres no oil splashing on to the cam lobes. Let us know how everything works out.

You can static time HEI's also. Take the rotor off and set crank to 15 BTDC. Under the rotor there is a reluctor wheel with teeth pointing outwards. Around it is a stator wheel with teeth pointing inwards. Turn distributor so that the teeth line up. Then turn it a hair counter-clockwise to compensate for module delay. I've never been off more than 2 degrees doing it this way. It's real nice to be able to start up a fresh engine without backfires or excessive cranking.

Thats the way it goes, like Brian said, 1 minute without good oiling, crappy gas-laden oil floating around = wiped lobe. It probably takes only one to two revolutions to start the lobe going away.


Actually, if you don't mind being defibrillated, I finally switch the ignition "ON" and turn the distrib until it fires #1 plug while at 10 BTDC on the crank. Ouch! But its spot on for the live fire excersize. Prime the carb and FIRE.

Didnt mean to be snippy in that last post.

no it doesnt' idle for a minute, instant 2500rpm, i guess it was misworded. No offense taken, but i do now how to start a motor. I dont' think there is anything new anyone can tell me about that, however i am willing to listen. I was just curious about how much a cam lobe will wear down, and how fast and other things like that. I had drained the gassy oil before start up, but i believe it was primed with the gas in the oil. i will be inspecting the oil filter today, and double checking things. the intake might come off today also.

p.s. I know it was my fault if the cam went flat, everytime i cranked it, in the back of my head, i knew the cam was going flat :(

Hey, it happens. Shame, it was going to be a killer rat. Still will be, with a bit more heartache though.

dumped the oil today :( ...... the oil out of the pan looked okay, kinda dirty though, but the magnetic drain plug on the moroso pan didnt look too bad, once i wiped it with a rag you could see some grey on the rag, but the magent wasn't fuzzy or anything. Then when i dumped the oil filter !!!!!!!!!!!!!! the oil that came out of the filter looked like silver fudge, looked like silver nail polish or something. So the cam is DEFINETLY wiped out. I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally don't want to pull the motor, if i have to i will probably give up on the car for a few months, and will forget about summer. The oil coming out of the pan for sure didn't look nearly as bad as the oil in the filter(K+N). Please lie to me and tell me to flush the motor out and stab a new cam in it and run it! I am running the clevite race bearings, i think they are the H series? so thery aren't as forgiving. How many people had a cam go flat(really flat) and still ran the motor with a new cam? how many people pulled the motor and the bearings looked okay? the motor was probably only ran for no more than 15 minutes.

Cody, Do you still have the filter bypass in? If so it probably just got the pump but you must clean everything including the inside of the pan. If you have the stock bypass setup pull it apart and look at eveything. You might get lucky but I never was.

Cody, love your website and pics of your awesome looking Firebird! In your #10 you state, run for a min to heat and cool down and then 2-3 10min runs?! When starting new engine you run for 15-20min at least 2000-2500 rpm to brake in the cam, and think about the pressure on those lobes as all that cranking was doing without starting! Also your filter did its job well, thats why most of metal is there and not in oil pan. Undoubtedly your bearings will have some wear on them from this. I would pull oil pan and #1 main and if its ok your good to go otherwise:::Because I have similar engine in my race car just wondering how you know you have 620hp?! Our sentiments are with you with this sad event but you'll get it right! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

yeah, i posted that 620hp about 2 years ago...its not proven but i should have at least 600. and as discussed i know about cranking the motor and so forth. The bypass was NOT plugged....

cody, my cam went flat last summer. i pulled the intake , flushed the engine several times with cheap oil , cleaned what i could and put in a new cam, lifters. so far so good. i'm not recommending you do this ,but i did and i even raced the car since. i'm sure the brgs took some abuse but my oil pressure is about the same as before the wiped lobe. don't get too bummed ,the season has'nt even started and its only a car anyway. try it again you'll get there. ray

Cody,

Call Tim at UltraDyne/Bullet Cams--not sure of the phone number, other than 662 area code. You can go to UltraDyne's web site for the new number.
See if he will warrantee it for you. I cannot--Lunati has no claim to the UltraDyne name.
Good Luck.....

UDHarold

I've got to say that reading all of the flat cam posts convinces me that the quality of cams and lifters must have dropped in the last 5 years. When I built my 454 I used a lumpy Crane cam and the dual springs as installed in my Edelbrock heads (330 lbs I think). I cranked that thing over time after time for 10 minutes before learning my fuel pump was bad. I didn't know I needed to remove the inner springs. This was 7 years and thousands of miles ago. I think if I did the same today it would have a different outcome.

This is exactly the horror story that makes me want to sell my Comp K-kit hydraulic flat tappet XE, pay the piper now and invest in a solid roller setup. I will have 3+ years of labor and cash into my car and I feel that if I go to crank up my 454 and it wipes a cam, I would probably go thru the roof. :eek: Cody, sorry to hear the trouble you're having and good luck with the solution.

Don't want to hijack this thread but...is a solid roller less likely to have problems during break in? And how noisy are they? I'm getting very sick of my CC 274 solid and the ticking noise.

guys, it was my fault...however i will be calling tim and telling him it was the cams fault!! solid rollers don't really need a break in, however if parts are carefully selected stuff will break with usage. Also if you think the cc hydro ticks try a solid. see my new posts

Cody,

Did you have your valves lashed to .022" Cold? I thought on my cam card(same cam) it said that the valve last is .026 Hot. If I'm not mistaken when setting valves cold add .002 to the lash to set them. I'm just wondering if your lash was way to tight or do most guys run them that tight. I'm still learning and tuning so any info on this is much appreciated.

Thanks, Matt

Originally posted by 70ss496:
Cody,

Did you have your valves lashed to .022" Cold? I thought on my cam card(same cam) it said that the valve last is .026 Hot. If I'm not mistaken when setting valves cold add .002 to the lash to set them. I'm just wondering if your lash was way to tight or do most guys run them that tight. I'm still learning and tuning so any info on this is much appreciated.
Thanks, Matt =
Matt,
With aluminium heads you want them .004 tight cold. ;)

Did you bother to check the lobes for lift?? Also, the bottum of the lifters will show tell tale signs of lobe damage - you will see them hollowed very quickly. The silver grey sludge in the filter is most likely the moly cam paste, one of the big problems with it is it will plug a filter real quick. Have to tell you, I have never wiped a flat tappet cam, and I have done some very hurried and uniformed assemblies over the years. I did manage to score a new roller though - so go figure.

For starters (will have to go back and read the responses again, don't recall if you already pulled the pan or not), drop a main down and check out a bearing. On a new motor startup, the fine particles in the bottum of the pan are often leftover from honing and machining that never were cleaned out of the block correctly prior to assembly.

Cody, sorry to hear about your misfortune.

I lost a cam to a flat lobe as well about 5 years ago CC 270H Hyd flat tappet. It had been running two years and two seasons, never a sign of any trouble, just all of a sudden the dreaded ticking and then clanking. :( No real explanantion of why. Been running rollers since then. I took this pic back then.

http://www.boomspeed.com/mc71454/lifter_pushrod_9_27_2000.jpg

Aw Gee Tom, thanks for waking up my demon, the dreaded freakin' out-of-the-blue cam walk away. And I'd be in the middle of flippin' nowhere in Ohio or something. Yup, hear it can happen just like that. :( Now you know why I spent the additional $60 on those edm oil bleeds. The dreaded out of nowhere deal ( as well as initial run-in). I know Harold thought it was teats-on-a-bull hawg with my mild spring pressures, but.....

Originally posted by 427L88:
Aw Gee Tom, thanks for waking up my demon, the dreaded freakin' out-of-the-blue cam walk away. And I'd be in the middle of flippin' nowhere in Ohio or something. Yup, hear it can happen just like that. :( Now you know why I spent the additional $60 on those edm oil bleeds. The dreaded out of nowhere deal ( as well as initial run-in). I know Harold thought it was teats-on-a-bull hawg with my mild spring pressures, but..... LOL..Gene, beleive me I hear ya...Funny thing the day it went flat, I was racing in a nostalgia muscle car race, I had to lower my dial .1 every pass, started the day in the 12.70's....won in the 5th round at 13.10 and man that motor sounded bad...Drove home on 7 cylinders with a trophy in the passenger seat.. :D ...I have those lifters on my desk at work as paperweights I use the pushrod to scratch my back at work where I can't reach.. graemlins/clonk.gif

Gene, Are you coming to the Hemmings Musclepalooza ?

Cody,

Pull the filter and get a magnifying glass and look at the silvery stuff. If you don't see actual metal flakes, you did not wipe the cam.
A cam that goes in 15 min is doing some serious grinding in there and the result will be a chip or flake that you will not be able to mistake for break in lube. Also, get a magnet on a flexible rod and stuff it in the drain plug hole.
Slide it around as much as possible and pull it out. Look for brand new shiny flakes. If you don't find any, clean your K/N and put it back in with fresh oil. Reset the lash and finish the cam brakein.
good luck
Dave

Oh, PS

You might want to pull a few pushrods and roll them to see if they are still straight. If not, look for coil bind on the valve springs.

i could see the grey stuff being break in lube, but when you put it in the sun it sparkles. No big flakes of metal though

You won't see flakes, it will be very fine. If you lost lift, you lost a cam :(

Tom, if that's on Memorial Day weekend, yes. I'm doing that in lieu of Chevellabration. Figure if I break Old Red I can leav'em at your house until I come back with a flatbed! smile.gif ;)

Yeah, that little solid flat tappet circle track cam I run would have made a dandy SR grind!....Hail Mary.....

If the oil had a silver tint to it and lots of little silver sand in the bottom of the pan you had might as well tear it down. My brother had a 282S go down in his newly built 396 and it wasted every bearing and destroyed the thrust bearing area too. The crank and block were paperweights afterwards so he stuck the 355 back in the car with the noisy 284XE.

well i pulled the intake and three of the lobes on the passenger side were all flat, barely any lobe left, the lifters won't pull out either, so i will pop them down. motors coming out today. One thing i did notice that i didn't check because i put these on after i built the motor was that when the valve is closed and the rocker is adjusted the comp promagnums are touching and rubbing the valve spring retainer. I don't thinkn i had this problem with my crane energizers. how do you fix that?

Originally posted by cody:
well i pulled the intake and three of the lobes on the passenger side were all flat, barely any lobe left, the lifters won't pull out either, so i will pop them down. motors coming out today. One thing i did notice that i didn't check because i put these on after i built the motor was that when the valve is closed and the rocker is adjusted the comp promagnums are touching and rubbing the valve spring retainer. I don't thinkn i had this problem with my crane energizers. how do you fix that? Are you sure the pushrods are the right length? I ran into the same problem only i could still slide a .02 feeler guage in between the rocker and retainer. If my pushrods would have been .050 shorter the would have hit. I called Mike L, and he said I could clearance the rockers if need be, with a die grinder, but as long as they don't actually TOUCH, it's OK. Same deal, AFR heads and Comp pro magnum rockers. Also Mike said AFR switched to a 1.65 dia spring from a 1.55 dia, which adds to the problem. Sorry to hear about your trouble, what a bummer. :(
Steve