What do you think about this,, http://community.webshots.com/photo/130708136/130845882iABZCC

now I see it

OK try it now(still trying to figure this ubb stuff out)

That what my sons looked like, two lobes the first time...one the second time....were the lifters hollowed out too?

I have one of those in the garage too....looks just about the same, but I have two lobes gone...

ouch

Tried to get a good pic of the lifter, but it didn't show up. Needless to say it is UGLY! :eek:

The ONLY good news, is that I JUST got the reply from Summit Racing and they are gonna send me a new cam & lifter set on the house graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I have one like that too. Apparently it's not very uncommon. Haven't sent it to Bill for Rockwell testing yet. I'm lazy sometimes.

Just curious.

How many of you guys with wiped lobes were running Comp Cams?

In my sons truck,,first was a Crane,,then Lunati,,running the comp xe274h now with Lunati microlube lifters, we'll see what happens.

EDIT: its gone faster with every cam change too,but we've also gone up with the lift too....470,.480, now .487/.490

Five lobes on my last cam looked like that. Didn't make me very happy. :mad: graemlins/sad.gif

Originally posted by DragRacer:
Just curious.

How many of you guys with wiped lobes were running Comp Cams?

I honestly feel that there are more Comp Cam Failures than others only because more people are running them..Of course thats just my opinion.. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I would be checking out the bottom half for bearing problems after that too. We had the same problem with a 282S cam in a 396 and it wiped the rods and the main bearing too. If you had lots of silver or glitter in the oil it is in the bearings.

Ya, I have already pulled the motor and dissambled it - For anyone who thinks you can run some kero throurh it & change the cam & oil, most of the bearings have BAD grooves in them. And I only ran that motor for about 2 hrs!!!

To much open spring pressure.Incorrect valve adjustment graemlins/sad.gif

Originally posted by BB485:
To much open spring pressure.Incorrect valve adjustment graemlins/sad.gif =
While I will agree that this could be the problem there have just been way to many reports of cam/lifter failure in the past couple of years compared to before,, so I doubt the problem can all be laid on the installer / builder / owner.
I have had two cams recently on the dyno we replaced because a couple of the lifters were not spinning or spinning very slowly.
Both were fine after replacement.
No, they did not go flat but I am sure they would have.
Lost one hyd roller on the 5th pull because the damn link bar broke.
The company said "must be the block, no way could it be a defective part"
"First time we ever heard of that",,,
That's crap :mad:
I replaced it with a solid roller from another company & it now has about 12000 miles on it last I heard.
Guess the block repaired it self.
BTW this was after redoing the whole engine & the bearings looked like crap. Remember this was on the dyno & the engine only ran a few minutes at most after the lifter turned sideways.
Had the link tested & it was heat treated to the point of being about as ductile as glass. graemlins/sad.gif

And whose lifters were they.

I'm thinkin it's prolly part related,inferior metals,heat treating or somethin. See a LOT more bad brake rotors nowadays also.Just my .02 Mike

On the cam I currently just broke in, I re-dialed in the cam and found that one of the intake lobes is short .010" on max lift (duration is OK). I used EOS and removed the inner valve spring for the break-in also. Man, I hope the cam is OK...

Originally posted by Silver69Camaro:
On the cam I currently just broke in, I re-dialed in the cam and found that one of the intake lobes is short .010" on max lift (duration is OK). I used EOS and removed the inner valve spring for the break-in also. Man, I hope the cam is OK... =
Matt,
Take a look at the pushrod while the engine is running & see if it is rotating. If it is you are probably ok but if not you need to take a look at the cam & lifter.
I would keep an eye on it anyway as once a lobe starts going south it tends to go very quickly.
Where are you measurng this .010 & is this a solid?
Hyd cams are very hard to check total lift on with the springs installed.
They will vary all over the map because of lifter bleed down ;)

Originally posted by TJC:
And whose lifters were they. =
Let's just say I use about 80% Isky now & their roller lifters exclusively ;)
On the flat tappet stuff for circle track I have been using the Isky's with the EDM oil hole.

Hmmm...

Let me see..

Does the name start witha C and have a P in it?

Mike, that's a good idea. Once the lifter stops rotating, it all goes downhill. I would also think that .010" would go through the hardened area of the lobe, into soft metal.

I simply had the dial indicator against the pushrod when I was checking it, so the lifter shouldn't have been compressing. I put another hour on the engine a couple days ago, so I'll check it again, when I put the inner springs back in and see if it lost any more lift.

This is a hyd cam with .525 valve lift on the intake, .533 on the exhaust. I measured the lack of .010 at max lift (lobe lift), after a 15-20 minute break in (at least the same as I do on every other cam). I lubed the crap out of this one though due to the aggressive ramps & lift.

If you had the rocker off & came up with .010 less lift at the pushrod than you had when you installed it assuming you are very sure the dial indicator was lined up straight with the pushrod I would be very concerned.
If the rockers were on & you had spring pressure loading the lifter it probably doesn't mean a lot, you will most likely compress the lifter & it will vary a little from lifter to lifter depending on bleed down rate & how long it's loaded.

Hey,,, at least you are taking the time to
check graemlins/thumbsup.gif

To much open spring pressure.Incorrect valve adjustment

Cam was purchsased as a K-kit, it came complete with matching springs etc. Valves were adjusted with the EOIC meathod - to zero lash + 1/2 turn. I highly doubt if either of these items led to the failure of that cam!

Yeah, better check it again. I really do not want to install another cam...

I guess it's very possible I didn't have the dial indicator parallel to the motion of the pushrod, which could cause the lift to appear to come up short.

FWIW, the one I lost was a Lunati hydraulic. I have had 3 Comp Cams and one from Howard's cams, and never a failure or problem...Not that Lunati's are junk either, but must have been something not right...I installed it just like the others.

Spring pressure is what got mine!!! graemlins/clonk.gif

I agree there seems to be way to much of this happening!!!! I went with springs a little lower in rated pressure than required and to date all is well.

I was lucky, no bearings were scared.

Has anybody had any cam / lifter failures with a REAL mild cam or are these failures mainly more radical performance cams. I'm talking about a real mild hydro daily driver-RV type cam. Less than than 215 degrees duration (@ .050) and less than .450" lift. (small block cam)

I'm in the planning stages of a 400SB rebuild for my 84 Suburban and I'm to the point that I may spend the extra money for a hydro-roller cam so I will not have any problems to condend with.

I've always built my own smallblocks,Did the break in at 2,000 for 20 minutes. I had a pro build my big block and he told me to set the timing and drive it, no cam break in!!! Runnin a .510 lift hyd. with double springs. 1600 miles and so far so good. Mike

Hey Mike, I know I have told you this b-4 but please (even if just to humor me) pull your valve covers & make sure your push rods are all turning... I just have NEVER heard of NOT breaking a cam in in a fresh BBC...

Originally posted by ssal396:
Hey Mike, I know I have told you this b-4 but please (even if just to humor me) pull your valve covers & make sure your push rods are all turning... I just have NEVER heard of NOT breaking a cam in in a fresh BBC... The thing is, in the old days nobody ever heard of breaking in a cam. I've seen more than one performance cam installed with no break it at all. The guy I learned most about engines from was the only one who even took any extra care at all. He would use a mixture of 30 weight oil and STP as assembly lube, that's it!!!!

I am by no means saying not break one in!!!

Obviously that is out of the question these days!!!

Funny thing is I have used STP as break lube and my first cam install about 10 years ago went very well. I wonder how long our Chevelles were ran when the motors first started up in the factory or were they ran before they were installed in the car?

I think cams are ground with an angle on them to make the lifers spin. I think from now on I am going to get my cam inspected plus the lifters before I install them. Rockwell hardened tested and all that. I don't trust them anymore. graemlins/sad.gif

I don't believe all the hocus pocus about running just the outer springs when running a lower lift like .550 lift. I bet Chevy never ran them without inner springs at the factory running their solid lifter motors for the first time. Maybe with the poor standards of manufacturing these days you have too.

You would think these manufacturers were more accurate now than they used to be with all the high tech equipment. I do know this no matter what a company says they do for quality sometimes the top brass of a company does not know what is actually going out the door sometimes. They press people to perform on the shop floor and if they don't produce numbers going out the shipping dock they will lose thier job. This goes for other manufacturers than just cams.

It just seems to me that if there are this many bad cams and lifters out there that somebody would hang inside the company somewhere. Maybe they compare the number they sell and the number that go bad and say it is within their limits.
I guess if you sell a 100 cams that are good maybe the mark up is good for 1 or 2 bad ones. Just send them another cam and lifters since we are not responsible for the rest of your engine or any other damage caused. :mad: , but only if you used our lifters. :eek:

This is laughable, we are not responsible for cam and lifter material that got in your main and rod bearings even though we will however be nice enough to send you another cam and lifters. How nice of them.

I know a lot of people say that it is mostly the installer that makes the errors that cause most failures. I just can't fathom my old man putting in camshafts with just STP and no breakin with the biggest springs he could buy and never had problems 25-30 years ago.

I have a friend who never breaks in a cam...just installs it and drives it, and as far as I know, he hasnt had a problem. I have installed about 9 cams, and have never done the double spring thing (taking out the inner spring) for break-in, I just make sure I use lots of lube and have everything set so I dont have to crank it over a lot. The one cam I had a problem with had single springs, so that wasnt a factor. I'm not advocating not doing a break-in, but Im wondering myself if it's absolutely necessary. Im hearing more and more that lots of builders dont worry about it. Oh well, I guess its one of those things......along with "do gear drives cause more wear and problems" or "do I use manifold vacuum or ported vacuum"

I've often wondered about that myself.

I built a few and saw many engines built in the early eighties with no cam break-in. The rule was just vary driving speeds for the first 500 miles, then have fun.

I figure the break-in probably became more necessary when cams started becoming more agressive. Shorter durations with higher lifts and more open time. And, of course, these are the cam traits that make it necessary to run more spring.

I haven't ever heard of a smaller cam getting wiped, but then most people don't run the little ones. I bet the street-rod crowd has a bit more experience with the little cams. But I wonder how many of those guys even build their own engines any more.

The reason for breakin at 2000 rpm is so that lifter rotates in the bore to create a pattern on the lobe. Removing the inner springs help's this process.

I thought it was so oil would get splashed on the cam from the crank and rods?

Originally posted by BB485:
The reason for breakin at 2000 rpm is so that lifter rotates in the bore to create a pattern on the lobe. Removing the inner springs help's this process. =
Actually they will rotate at idle if everything is right.
The reason for the RPM is all the cam gets is splash oil & whatever is forced passed the lifter from the lifter galleys.
There is no pressure oil to the cam so you get a lot more oil on the lobes at RPM.

In my opinion comparing a stock or mild cam with 200lbs of nose pressure to an aggressive lobe with over 300 is apples & oranges.
300 lbs is 300 lbs per sq inch or in the case of the cam lobe with it's very small contact area of say for argument .05 inches of area about 6000 lbs per sq inch just as an example.
When the cam & lifter are mating there is extremely high unit pressure on the cam as the only thing touching is the edge of the lobe due to lobe taper.

Again in my opinion just because some people have installed cams & had no problem without taking the time to do it properly is not a real valid argument for doing it that way.
Some people also put an engine together & prime it on the starter or just start it & wait for the oil pressure to come up & get away with too but I doubt many folks on here would use this as an argument for doing it this way graemlins/clonk.gif
You would probably be surprised at the number of performance cams that had problems "25 or 30 years ago",, the biggest difference is there was no internet so instant information that a lot take for granted was non existent ;)

Part of the problem is that you guys are just too greedy......

If you'd only be happy with 1960s-type performance, things would be sooooo easy.
Materials are better than, or at least as good as, the materials from the 1960s. Cams are still made from Proferal, the same cast iron material in use since the 1960s, speaking of American-made cams of course.
We could drop velocities back to .0068"/°, with .030" from the edge of the tappet, instead of .014" and .0071"/°. Engines might not make quite as much power, but they would certainly be more reliable.
Do you want a reliable loser, or do you want a winner?

Enquiring minds want to know....

UDHarold

I think most of us are bracket racers,reliability and consistency...I need more for my new 454,possibly 496 though, it does seem we always want to go faster,don't it. I'll probably venture to the roller side too. 6000 rpm,10.5-1,049 heads,3500 stall,3.73's.

Harold I did not know some cams materials were brought from overseas. You don't have to say which ones, ;) but are they major cam manufacturers?

Harold would a XE line of cams that Comp Cams sell now make 20-30 more horsepower than a prior Magnum cam with the same engine and similar lifts and duration?

I think I could sacrifrice 10 horsepower or so and not worry about wiping a camshaft or lifters. Just about all the new grinds that are coming out are on the edge of technology as far as the flat tappets go. If you want to go with the technology you should go roller and if you want the reliability and a little less horses go with an older grind. Just my .02

Originally posted by UDHarold:
Do you want a reliable loser, or do you want a winner?..a reasonable compromise between the two :D ;)

Plain69/Larry,

I won't touch the XE question, as I am biased.
HOWEVER, My 2004 designs are within .015"-.017" from the edge of the tappet, just like my April 1980 designs---The 288/296F cam is .017" from the edge of the tappet. My Super NF cams are .015", or more, away from the edge of the tappet.
The 288/296F, its' little brother, the 276/284F, and others of that family, have gone over 100,000 miles on the street. They did it on cast iron from Michigan, and they did it on cast iron from Turkey. I had no more problems with Turkish cast iron than I did with American. I would lose about 1.5%+/-.5% during breakin. The vast majority would be because the cam was either too far forward, or moved there during breakin. Some were unrepeatable errors, insufficient breakin lube, pushrods too tight, etc, etc, etc.
I warranteed them all.
The main problem I have seen in the past 10 years with cast iron cams were several years production from a Michigan core company of SBC cores with improper fillets at the corners. Stress risers caused an abnormal number of broken cams, generally just before the distributor gear. Those folks rarely sold to me, as they had their biggest customer to take care of.......

It is very easy to design reliable cams----Look at my 272F/282F family. These cams are shutting the valve 60% harder than GM shuts their HYDRAULIC cams. The 288F shuts the valve 346% harder, and still goes 100,000 miles. I have had roller cams with the same rate(all my roller cams of the 1980s used that seating veloicty) go over 2000 miles in 24 hours. The 288F is reliable, the 272F/282F is FACTORY reliable.

Some of the problems seen may be bad cam design...
Others may be bad materials or poor manufacturing techniques, some may just be the use of automatic cam grinders with extremely aggressive cam designs.
The factory uses automatic cam grinders to make all their cams. If you check the potential for errors, you'll see that ANY automatic cam grinder leaves about a 30% chance that AT LEAST one of the 16 lobes was not finished grinding when the process was stopped. The factory compensates by using extremely mild cams, where the unfinshed cam lobe makes very little difference. Going to extremely aggressive lobe designs accenuates this problem.
Enough said......

UDHarold

I have read several of UD Harolds posts and always learn something from him. Sign me up as one of his biggest fans. Another Harold.

Dang! Everyone has me running concerned now. I recently put in the 268 Cam. No problems yet. Thats really cool that Summit is doing that. You lucky dog! :D

Not only is summit replacing the cam & lifters, but they have gone out of their way to say how sorry they are that it happened. I am not looking a gift horse in the mouth, but in my opinion I think they are just happy that I am not asking for $ for the rebuild...I guess I should have asked for the bearings & gaskets ;)

But in all reality, I am glad they at least stood behind their product without so much as one question graemlins/thumbsup.gif I am also glad I didn't have to boycott them & buy from Jegs, as I only live about 45 mins. from Summit & that really comes in handy when you need something ASAP...

PS, I agree with one of the prevous posts, I also learn something from EVERY one of UD Harold's posts, & would like to say thanx for all the time spent on this site helping all of us out graemlins/beers.gif

Scott, glad to hear they are standing behind it. But..... kinda makes ya wander why it was so easy, no questions asked??? Mike

Great explanation of how things work Harold. I have been reading your posts for a year or so on here and you are guru in here about cams no doubt. Just glad your here from time to time.

Main bearing is always bad after a cam wipeout. You should grind it.

Have you checked for coilbind? Rockerbind? Something is wrong up there for 90%

http://www.usfamily.net/web/hoffbug/camlobe1.jpg
Cast street roller. 10 dyno pulls, less than 500 street miles, and less than 20 passes. No heat treatment. Rockwell test confirmed.

hoffbug,

That is amazing... I am running the XR292R Solid Roller Street Cam. No problems and I replace the lifters once a year (race only) what kind of lifters were you using? What cam did you switch to?

The hydraulic roller cams are cast iron. Obviously really poorly produced parts.

GOOD DAY TODAY! received my new cam today---they sent me the whole K-kit - cam, lifters'springs'retainers'seals,& timing chain...

I gotta give a big graemlins/thumbsup.gif to summit racing for at least coming to the table..I know it MAY have been a bad product that may have caused the failure in the first place, but I FULLY expected them to dump on me , like every other manufacturer/supplier out there that I have ever delt with. You usually have to scream & hell to get anything done graemlins/angry.gif :mad:

If you buy an engine component that was manufactured
wrong, isn't the manufacturer liable for any damage
done to your engine when their product fails?

(assuming you can prove it was a manufacturers problem)

Has anyone actually ever tried to make a manufacturer accountable?

Gas stations are liable if they sell you gasoline
that has been contaminated with too much water.
How is that any different?

I know the world is "sue happy" these days, but
if I spent a ton of my hard earned $$$ to build
an engine, only to have it ruined because of
something which could be proven to be a
manufacturer's defect, I'd be calling some lawyers.

Is this a case of the little guy trying to go after
a big company?

I did a chemical analysis of a broken crank shaft
for a local "big company" that proved it was made
of the wrong material.

This company services their own engines, and had
replaced the crankshaft themselves.

Soon after replacement, the crank broke causing
unrepairable damage to the block.

They said they were going to use my analysis to
"persuade" the crank's manufacturer to pay for the
engine. Not just pay for a new crank, but pay for
the entire engine.

Dave

Ya, If I thought I had definate proof of it being a bad cam or lifter that caused the failure, I prob would have pushed them to AT LEAST supply me with the new bearings & gaskets...

Originally posted by chevy_69_chevelle:
hoffbug,

That is amazing... I am running the XR292R Solid Roller Street Cam. No problems and I replace the lifters once a year (race only) what kind of lifters were you using? What cam did you switch to? It was a XR286R. I was running the standard comp roller lifters. Comp replaced the defective cam with the same profile, but on a billet core.
I did quite a bit of research into it and posted the rockwell results and other cam manufactures hardness reccommendations here. Too bad the thread didnt make it into the archives :rolleyes:

Used a XE292R for 3 years, rebuid now after 15000km Seems like new.

But i use Cranes Ultralight Horizontals ;)

Why change lifters once a year? I use 220@seat and 620 open and have same lifters for 10 years.

Runned between 150-220@seats...

Originally posted by hoffbug:
It was a XR286R. I was running the standard comp roller lifters. Comp replaced the defective cam with the same profile, but on a billet core.
I did quite a bit of research into it and posted the rockwell results and other cam manufactures hardness reccommendations here. Too bad the thread didnt make it into the archives :rolleyes: Can you summarize them again, I can't find that posting. thanks.

Originally posted by 69ssmike:
I'm thinkin it's prolly part related,inferior metals,heat treating or somethin. See a LOT more bad brake rotors nowadays also.Just my .02 Mike You're seeing that because single use rotors are starting to come out on the market. You can thank CAFE requirements and engineers that need to reduce unsprung weight to increase mpg for that.

Joe

I have heard a lot about roller lifter failures so I decided that the $180 for having comp cams rebuild the lifters is worth it once a year. The motor has been real good to me so far, and I want to keep the motor happy. smile.gif

Originally posted by TJC:[/QUTOTE]
:Can you summarize them again, I can't find that posting. thanks. [/QUOTE]

I have lost all of that information. I got it from cam manufactures websites and also phone work. I guess its all lost to the ether now. The Rockwell numbers were 10.6,13,13,13,22,26 on the "C" scale.
It basically translated to raw cast iron.