On Monday night. I got a call today from the machinist that did my heads awhile back. Im not sure if this is going on across the country or what, but he invited me down to his shop on Monday at 6:00 PM for Pizza. He said we'll eat first, then we will have an info session by Lake Speed Jr. of Joe Gibbs Racing. He will be talking about the additives that are no longer in the oils that we use. He will also be speaking on the fact that Rotella will be eliminating some of these additives from their oil. He is addressing the problem mostly along the lines of cam wear, as well as bearing life and general oiling issues. It sounds like it might be interesting, and I figure even if it's boring as all getout, I still get free Peetz and soda!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

keep us posted:yes:

FYI,The reformulated CJ Rotella 15w-40 for 2007 has already had the ZDDP reduced to less then .1%/1000ppm per info i got straight from shell.

There is talk of the ZDDP being reduced even futehr in the near Future.

All you have to do is go to the Gibb's site and all the cam/oil testing info you speaking of is listed in the site so check it out.

Scott

All you have to do is go to the Gibb's site and all the cam/oil testing info you speaking of is listed in the site

Yeah, but no Pizza!!:p:D

OK, the seminar was really interesting. Of course, it was also a sales pitch for Gibbs performance oil. I knew that would be part of it, but I still learned a whole lot about oils and how they work and are blended, etc. I also found that the Rotella or diesel oils are maybe not the best choice for our cars. I know you probably know about Rotella, for example, has already reduced the zinc and moly additives, and will further reduce them for the 2010 standards...what I didnt realize was that the diesels have far more detergents than I realized, and that the detergents actually work against the additives, to an extent. Bottom line of a very complex explanation is this: because of the way we use our cars, as in changing the oil frequently (no need for much detergents), but needing lots of friction protection, the best way to deal with it is to use an oil (there are more than just Gibbs oils) that is not rated or regulated by API standards. Lake Speed actually said, if you can buy it at Wal-Mart, you dont want it in your car. He's referring to the fact that all oils, including Racing oils, that are sold in a store such as WalMart, NAPA, etc., have to be API rated, meaning they have much, much less of the additives that we need. The only way around this is to buy a specialty oil, for off road or racing applications. They dont have to adhere to the API or EPA standards. Additives were also brought up, but he advised against just adding something to the oil, as you dont really know how it will react with the oil...might be good, might not. He gave examples of each, and it wasn't good. I also brought up the NAPA gold filter, which is make by Wix...he confirmed that it indeed made by Wix, but the element is very different than the one used by the NASCAR and drag racing world. He didnt condemn them at all, but said dont think you're getting something special. I would refer anyone interested in more of this presentation to check out Gibbs web site, as I certainly cant remember everything that was discussed. If this comes to your area, I would recommend it. Very interesting. John

John..thanks for sharing.Good stuff!
What was his take on synthetic oils?

Chris, he was pretty equally touting both standard oils, and the synthetics. He said stay away from the blends, only because you're paying quite a bit more, but you may get an oil thats 90% regular oil and 10% synthetic. For a little bit more, you can get straight synthetic. He said the stories of synthetics being wrong for a roller cam motor is another old wives tale. It doesnt sling off easier, and they use it in all their engines. The Busch series cars are all roller cam motors, the Nextel series are flat tappet cams. Someone asked about break-in using standard oil before switching to syn....he said the only reason for that in an engine like ours would be for ring seal, which of course is important for a new engine. But for a cam or bearing change, where you're not using new pistons/rings, it didnt make any difference.

He also said (regarding our newer regular cars and trucks, our daily drivers) is to find an oil that we like, and stick with it. The worst thing we can do is keep switching oils every oil change, maybe just to get whatever is on sale.

Interesting. Yeah, I figured diesel oil had a ton of detergent sicne it gets black in a few mintues run time. THNX for sharing.

Thanks John...Good Info !!!

Holy smokes I just put castrol 20 50 in my car..is this not good?? And a wix filter too

I dont think there is any need to panic and start dumping out our oil.....just keep this point in mind. Any oil you buy in any common store that we all shop in (wal-mart, K-mart, NAPA, pretty much anyone that sells oil to the public) will have the API (American Petroleum Institute) seal on it. And any of those oils, as different as they may be, will have drastically reduced amounts of the good additives, moly and zinc, to meet federal standards. The special purpose oils will still have them in varying amounts depending on the brand. They do not have to meet those standards, as these oils are for racing and off road use only (our cars!) His point to not losing those wear additives is mostly directed at the fact that we have pushrod engines (unlike many of today's new cars) and flat tappet cams, and these wear agents greatly reduce the failure rate of these parts. No one is saying that today's oils are trash, but they certainly aren't geared towards protecting the older engines that we all need to take care of.

Guys ,where have you been,we have been talking about all this oil issue here in t/chevelle in the engine & performance forums for approx 1.5 yrs now and its been hashed over mult times in both forums.

Just do a search on ZDDP & motor oil etc here in t/chevelle and you will find that info.

FYI,I am currently waiting for more info on 2 more possible lines of specialty oils that supposedly have enough ZDDP to protect our flat tappet cams. I am just in the process of waiting to hear back if the what looks to be decent ZDDP data they gave me was in fact obtained from oil mfg & tested post 1/2007 to ensure the ZDDP data is current and reflective of the oil thats mfg today & not prior to 1/2007 when the oils has higher ZDDP lvl's.

I will post this info on thoses 2 oil mfg's & the grades offered with enough ZDDP as soon as i get an answer back from them to ensure the oil is ok to use for protecting our flat tappet cams.

But i am not going to list those oil mfg's untill the mfg's prove to me the ZDDP is current because i dont want to recommend any oil that may not propely protect our flat tappet cams. I say this because i dont want to rec an oil that could possibly damage someones motor as a result due to low ZDDP lvl's in that oil . But i have to say that low ZDDP lvl's is not the only reason flat tappet cams go bad,its not IMHO. But having an adequate lvl of ZDDP in the oil definately helps like was in oils 25-30yrs ago to help flat tappet cams live longer . But an adequate lvl of ZDDP in the oil didnt always do the trick as we all know because SBC/BBC definately had issues at times with flat tappet cams prematurely going bad,i know that was true because i had replaced MANY of those bad cams back in the day when GM had issues with them.

But as John said there is no reason to panic,i would just get a hold of some EOS from your local GM dealer if they have anymore or get it from ebay where its now poping up in single pt buys or in case lots. Then just add some EOS ,STP 4 cyl oil treatment in the red bottle(buy from Autobarn on net),or crane engine breakin lube(get it from summit) that all have elevated ZDDP lvl's in them to your crankcase oil . Then your flat tappet cam should be protected good enough untill this ZDDP in the oil thing gets figured out.

scott

Guys ,where have you been,we have been talking about all this oil issue here in t/chevelle in the engine & performance forums for approx 1.5 yrs now and its been hashed over mult times in both forums.

Just do a search on ZDDP & motor oil etc here in t/chevelle and you will find that info.

FYI,I am currently waiting for more info on 2 more possible lines of specialty oils that supposedly have enough ZDDP to protect our flat tappet cams. I am just in the process of waiting to hear back if the what looks to be decent ZDDP data they gave me was in fact obtained from oil mfg & tested post 1/2007 to ensure the ZDDP data is current and reflective of the oil thats mfg today & not prior to 1/2007 when the oils has higher ZDDP lvl's.

I will post this info on thoses 2 oil mfg's & the grades offered with enough ZDDP as soon as i get an answer back from them to ensure the oil is ok to use for protecting our flat tappet cams.

But i am not going to list those oil mfg's untill the mfg's prove to me the ZDDP is current because i dont want to recommend any oil that may not propely protect our flat tappet cams. I say this because i dont want to rec an oil that could possibly damage someones motor as a result due to low ZDDP lvl's in that oil . But i have to say that low ZDDP lvl's is not the only reason flat tappet cams go bad,its not IMHO. But having an adequate lvl of ZDDP in the oil definately helps like was in oils 25-30yrs ago to help flat tappet cams live longer . But an adequate lvl of ZDDP in the oil didnt always do the trick as we all know because SBC/BBC definately had issues at times with flat tappet cams prematurely going bad,i know that was true because i had replaced MANY of those bad cams back in the day when GM had issues with them.

But as John said there is no reason to panic,i would just get a hold of some EOS from your local GM dealer if they have anymore or get it from ebay where its now poping up in single pt buys or in case lots. Then just add some EOS ,STP 4 cyl oil treatment in the red bottle(buy from Autobarn on net),or crane engine breakin lube(get it from summit) that all have elevated ZDDP lvl's in them to your crankcase oil . Then your flat tappet cam should be protected good enough untill this ZDDP in the oil thing gets figured out.

scott

I assume you are talking about adding a single bottle (more than that is probably not a good idea, due to viscosity changes) of the above, for their higher zinc content. That's all well and good, but that won't likely be anywhere near enough zinc concentration (one little bottle added to 5 or more qts) to get the overall desired ppm to protect you flat tappet cam/lifters. So, that leaves you right back where you started.......waiting to wipe your cam.

All that worry can be left behind, by simply running any oil clearly marked on the bottle as "Racing Oil", which have the zinc/phos levels you want. If you rely on an oil company giving you the correct zinc/phos levels, you are playing Russian Roulette with your engine. You can't be sure you'll get the correct info, we've seen that happen before. More often than not, the people who really know what they are doing, or know what they are talking about, don't work customer service. And they could never "prove" what their zinc/phos levels are, since you could never trust the info/data they provide to you, which could even be an honest mistake by an employee. And that probably wouldn't be that hard to do, considering the reduced zinc/phos levels are in continuing product lines. So it wouldn't be easy to clearly distinguish between them. Only an independent lab could prove to you what an oil really has in it. If you need a link to a motor oil test lab, here is one I plan on using at my next oil change, where I will test both the new and the used oil.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/index.html

If you are determined to run a non "Racing Oil", then be sure to have a new oil lab tested before you risk destroying you engine with something that you aren't really sure about.

540rat/others,to be safe i asked a chemist by trade thats also a team chevelle member to help look into all this ZDDP stuff and he is in the middle of doing just that as we speak.

He said so far its a messy issue with tons of outdated incorrect info out there and oil mfg/s that dont want to cooperate with questions on lvls of zddp in the oils they mfg.

He said so far the LN oil rept we have been reffering to over the past yr is by far the best most accurate info he has seen or read anywhere thus far so thats good for us that we have been refferencing that info.

But he did some preliminary calculations and he said that a pint of EOS with approx 5qts oil was good ration of ZDDP when used with for example the current CI rated delo 400 15-w-40.

He also stated that i pint eos would likely be enough if you used an oil that just missed making the min amount of ZDDP required to protect flat tappet cams,but if the oil was very low on ZDDP it may ne be enough.

But either way i am sure later on he will be able to give us real #'s for amounts ofr EOS & STP to realisitcally add to our convetional oils to be safe and hopefully it wont need too much so that it will upset the viscocity of the 5qts of oil its added too.

Either he or myself will post our findings when we are done figuring & investigating some more of this ZDDP stuff out.

I can tell you he is going very deep into it by contacing researchers that did work for GM concerning the reduction of ZDDP in motor oils and also chemists that wrere in the buisness of working with ZDDP & motor oils.

So we will be getting the real scoop for everyone here in t/chevelle but it will take a while to get it all together so be patient.

But for now running eos and or stp in red bottle with the diesel oils will hopefully do the trick unless you want to run a full syn oil thats already known to have the correct lvl of zddp for proper cam protection.

He is also looking into the higher detrgent lvl in the diesel oil supposedly bloking or stipping the ZDDP from engine parts so we cnaq get the real scoop on that too.

But again we will post the real deal once we are done pulling all this stuff together which may take a few months at this rate because its a lot of time consuming work.

scott

It will be nice when we get this all cleared up and get just "ONE" correct product to use.:hurray:

I highly doubt it will be one correct prodcut but i am sure we will have a options for what amounts of EOS and STP to mix with what oil/s along with maybe a couple specialty classic car motor oils i am checking on that may offer enough ZDDP right from the mfg but thats still to be proven to me and the chemist by the mfg's of those oils before i posts it here as being safe for you guys to use for flat vtappet cam protection.

Scott

All that worry can be left behind, by simply running any oil clearly marked on the bottle as "Racing Oil", which have the zinc/phos levels you want.

Gotta disagree slightly on this part....if the racing oil you choose has the API donut on the bottle, it doesnt have enough of the additives we need. I checked this myself. If the oil you pick up does not have that little donut on the label, then I suppose you're OK. From what I learned the other night, additives are not the way to go either, as was mentioned. I know everyone is going to do what they think is right anyway, so it doesnt matter I suppose. Not trying to change anyone's minds here, just passing along info. This is sure to get even more confusing, Im sure.

Gotta disagree slightly on this part....if the racing oil you choose has the API donut on the bottle, it doesnt have enough of the additives we need. I checked this myself. If the oil you pick up does not have that little donut on the label, then I suppose you're OK. From what I learned the other night, additives are not the way to go either, as was mentioned. I know everyone is going to do what they think is right anyway, so it doesnt matter I suppose. Not trying to change anyone's minds here, just passing along info. This is sure to get even more confusing, Im sure.


All the clearly labeled "Racing Oil" motor oils I've seen, where I've also seen lab reports on them, had good levels of zinc/phos. That is one of the main, though not the only, differences between street oil and racing oil. I'm not aware of any current "Racing Oil" that is low on zinc/phos. All of those racing oils claim to have high zinc/phos, for what its worth. But of course, it would be prudent to confirm this at a lab. What particular "Racing Oil" are you referring to, that does not have enough zinc/phos? And did you see lab tests to back that up, or are you simply looking for the doughnut. And there is more than one version of that doughnut, which mean different things. I don't have the chart in front of me though, to give the details.

All the clearly labeled "Racing Oil" motor oils I've seen, where I've also seen lab reports on them, had good levels of zinc/phos. I'm not aware of any current "Racing Oil" that is low on zinc/phos. What particular "Racing Oil" are you referring to, that does not have enough zinc/phos? And did you see lab tests to back that up, or are you simply looking for the doughnut. And there is more than one version of that doughnut, which mean different things. I don't have the chart in front of me though, to give the details.

Here's why I say that, and Im just quoting from what I heard at the seminar the other night. The EPA has set standards on the amount of additives (you know what Im speaking of, the good stuff) that can be in the oil now, based on the residue or pollution they leave behind. So, it is believed by most all of us here that there are not enough of them in the oils anymore. To sell the oil to the general public, it's my understanding that there must be an API stamp or marking on the bottle, signifying that it meets the standards of the federal government. What Lake Speed said at the meeting, was exactly this....."If it has the API seal on the bottle, it does NOT have enough of the additives (that we need) to give us adequate protection." Thats what he said, it's not what Im saying....Im just a little guy from a small town:( What the heck do I know about oil?? :boring: I havn't personally gone into a store to check it out myself....but tomorrow, Im gonna do it;) As I remember it, the racing oils have a disclaimer on it saying 'not for street use'. Maybe that's their way out of adhering to the standards. Im not sure about that part, so Im not gonna speculate.

I think the race oil that confuses everyone is the Valvoline VR1. People confuse this oil with the Valvoline not street legal race oil that is not available in the stores.

Here's why I say that, and Im just quoting from what I heard at the seminar the other night. The EPA has set standards on the amount of additives (you know what Im speaking of, the good stuff) that can be in the oil now, based on the residue or pollution they leave behind. So, it is believed by most all of us here that there are not enough of them in the oils anymore. To sell the oil to the general public, it's my understanding that there must be an API stamp or marking on the bottle, signifying that it meets the standards of the federal government. What Lake Speed said at the meeting, was exactly this....."If it has the API seal on the bottle, it does NOT have enough of the additives (that we need) to give us adequate protection." Thats what he said, it's not what Im saying....Im just a little guy from a small town:( What the heck do I know about oil?? :boring: I havn't personally gone into a store to check it out myself....but tomorrow, Im gonna do it;) As I remember it, the racing oils have a disclaimer on it saying 'not for street use'. Maybe that's their way out of adhering to the standards. Im not sure about that part, so Im not gonna speculate.

Yes, as a rule, the current "Racing Oils", do not meet EPA/manufacturer requirements for new cars, because of their high zinc/phos levels. So, they have to be clearly labeled "Racing Oil".

540 rat,here you go ,you said you hadnt seen anything that showed the off road/racing oils didnt have enought Zn & P and were not aware of any the failed the meet ZDDP requirements well now you will be aware of 2 well known off road/NSL oils that failed to meet Zn & P requirements for proper flat tappet cam protection.

Here is recent Zn & P test done in the " LN engineering oil report " on Valvoline NSL 20w-50 racing oil that did not have near the Zn & P lvlv valvoline stated it was supposed to have even thought everyone says it does. These 2 sample sure didnt make the grade and i dont trust the outdated data sheets on the valvoline site either that everyone reffers to including the valvoline techs/engs when you call them for ZDDP data they obtian from you guessed it old out dated product data sheets.

Even the Brad Penn 20w-50 racing for off road use only oil did worse yet but both these oils do now meet the new 1/2007 epa regs for .1%/1000ppm of less Zn & P ,HHMMM,imagine that.

See below for the LN oil test test results:
================================================== ==============

The LN oil rept rec approx 1200ppm-1400ppm each Zn & P for proper flat tappet cam protection and the valvoline didnt cut it at all. Some may think thiese oils are close enough on the Zn & P but when you consider most aftermarket cams (even mild ones) are running more aggressive srping pressures the slightly lower Zn & P lvlv wont cut it /protect the flat tappets cams well enough over time & miles.

valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 835ppm(P)/ 976ppm(Zn) conventional(oil type) /03/07 (test date)

Valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 842 962 synthetic 03/07

Penn Grade 1 Racing 20w50 664 852 semi-/blend 04/07

Scott

I think the race oil that confuses everyone is the Valvoline VR1. People confuse this oil with the Valvoline not street legal race oil that is not available in the stores.

I'd say you are probably right. But over the last few months I have come across a couple of recent lab results on VR1, and they showed good levels of zinc/phos. It seems to me that Valvoline caused all this confusion because some of their racing oils say "Not Street Legal", while VR1 does not. However, they all show good levels of zinc/phos. So, if anyone uses VR1 in a late model cat car, they are slowly causing damage by not running actual street oil.

540 rat,here you go ,you said you hadnt seen anything that showed the off road/racing oils didnt have enought Zn & P well you asked and you shall recieve.

Here is recent Zn & P test done in the " LN engineering oil report " on Valvoline NSL 20w-50 racing oil that did not have near the Zn & P lvlv valvoline stated it was supposed to have even thought everyone says it does,these 2 sample sure didnt and i dont trust the outdated data sheets on the valvoline site either that everyone reffers to including the valvoline techs/engs when you call them for ZDDP data.

Even the Brad Penn 20w-50 racing for off road use only oil did worse yet but both these oils do now meet the new 1/2007 epa regs for .1%/1000ppm of less Zn & P ,HHMMM,imagine that.

See below for the LN oil test test results:
================================================== ==============

The LN oil rept rec approx .12%-.14% / 1200ppm-1400ppm each Zn & P for proper flat tappet cam protection and the valvoline didnt cut it at all. Some may think thiese oils are close enough on the Zn & P but when you consider most aftermarket cams (even mild ones) are running more aggressive srping pressures the slightly lower Zn & P lvlv wont cut it /protect the flat tappets cams well enough over time & miles.

valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 835ppm(P)/ 976ppm(Zn) conventional(oil type) /03/07 (test date)

Valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 842 962 synthetic 03/07

Penn Grade 1 Racing 20w50 664 852 semi-/blend 04/07

Scott

Hmmmm, that does suck, thanks. It would appear that Valvoline is rather inconsistent with their oil, if these numbers are in fact, correct. BTW it can't be VR1 and NSL, they are different lines of oil. So, even these specs bring into question what is correct and what is not. Can you clear this up?

There is no confusion,its the NSL/not street leagl oil they tested,and there is no mistaking brad penn racing oil either,the #'s spek for themselves.

But i hope Valvoline and brad penn get this squared away and increase the Zn & P lvl's back to where they were supposed to be.

Maybe someone could have the valvoline NSL & Brad penn racing oils tested again to see if the Zn & P lvls are back up to where they belong.

Scott

Valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 842 962 synthetic 03/07

Scott

This is where you made it confusing, you listed VR-1 NSL, but they are two different lines of oil. You have the VR-1 line, and then you have the NSL line. Not the same stuff. Now you say it is NSL, and that's fine, but was it your typo or did the lab post it wrong? If the lab messed up, we still don't know which oil it is. That is what I was talking about.

540/I understand what your saying but i didnt list the oils like that,i cut and pasted it directly from the LN oil test rept so what you see is how it was stated in the rept,even the brad pesnn racing oil for off road use only tested low for Zn & P too.

If you dont want to believe it then dont & then you can just go by the 2 yr old product data on valvolines site if you wish like many other people are doing in t/chevelle. But i wont go by it and would require another oil test to confirm if the valvoline or brad penn 20-50 NSL/off road use only oils had enough zddp before i would run them.

If you want to run valvoline NSL 20-50 racing oil as you implied i would opt to spend $25-$30 for an oil test to ensure it has enough ZDDP,go to the blackstone site for details and form to print out to send with sample.

A $30 test to ensure your cam is protected with enough ZDDP is cheap insurance vs trashing it if the cam wipes out early due to low ZDDP lvl's sending metal throught the motor.

Then you could do us all a favor by posting that oil test result here in t/chevelle to tell all of us once and for all where the Zn & P lvl is in the valvoline 20-50 NSL racing oil,not VR-1 racing oil as you stated . But you have to ensure you buy oil that was mfg after 1/2007 to ensure it was subject to the lower ZDDP regs even though 20w-50 oils (eps racing/off road/NSL)were not supposed to be affected by the new regs and it was only the lighter grades like 5-20/5-30/10-30/10-40/15w-40 (Diesel & light SUV /Truck oil) that were affected by the mandate for lower ZDDP lvls post 1/2007.

Remember i I am taking the time to research this oil/zddp stuff for all of us here in t/chevelle running flat tappet cams so please dont shoot the messenger which is ME .(LOL!!!)

Scott

And then there is the possibility that the labs don't know what they're doing either.

Case in point: About 2 months ago I bought some "supposed" high zinc content oil and sent a sample to Blackstone for testing. The results came back rather disappointing, only 980 ppm of zinc. I then contacted the company I purchased the oil from and they were quite interested in when and where I purchased the oil from. I told them I ordered it directly from them and gave them the invoice number. They told me that all of that lot of oil was gone but they were still very interested in the test results. They sent me another complete order of oil to replace the first one at no charge and included an analysis report from Stavely which is the lab they use. Their report shows plenty of zinc. They sent a call tag for 1 bottle of the original oil to be returned to them because they wanted to have it analyzed by their lab. Just for grins, before I sent the bottle back I took another sample from the same bottle as my original sample and sent it to Blackstone for analysis. I just got the results back today for the second sample from the same bottle. Guess what? This time the results said 693 ppm zinc for the same oil that tested at 980 ppm 2 months ago. Pardon my French, but WTF? That's about a 30% difference in 2 tests of the same bottle of oil by the same lab. The real fun will be when the oil supplier gets his results from his lab (Stavely).

Gary, what kind of oil did you send in for testing?

It's called Motorhead Classic Hi-Z and is a 15W40 wt. It's a sideline business of a guy named Sam Nicolosi of DCM Industries in Dayton OH. I think its a generic diesel oil that he has the zinc and phosphorus "spiked" to his specs. The one analysis from Stavely that he sent me shows 1600 ppm zinc and 1515 ppm phos. They don't have a website but if you google them you can find some mention of them. I think he has some old Nash cars or something like that. He seems to be very customer oriented so far.

Gary,this may sound stupid but did you make sure to shake the botle well before sending both samples out for testing to Blackstone to esure there was no settling of the ZDDP additives?

I have been involved in chemical/lab testing at times at my workplace and aggitating samples prior to testing is the #1 most overlooked thing to do that can really cause some problems with inconsistant test results making it look like the lab is messing up when it's really the samples it being sent not aggitated/mixed properly before they are drawn/poured from the lager main container of in your case oil thats the issue.

So shake the heck out of the newer bottle of oil thats the newer lot and send that out for a test to see that happends.

If that one comes up low too then send a sample mixed well from the same bottle to Snavely to see what happens with that one.

Boy,this ZDDP subject just get owrse every day,not we may have 1 or 2 labs that dont test consistantly on top of the oil mfg's changing their ZDDP lvls too as a moving target.

It looks like it will be EOS or red bottle of stp for me for a long time to come the way this is going for us flat tappet cam users unless you want to go full syn,thats supposed to have the higher ZDDP but who relly know because it has not all been tested either. and in the LN oil rept the brad penn syn 20-50 race oil tested low for ZDDP so there you go.

BTW,I had also seen the "motor head oil" and contacted the owned and he basically said but not in words that it was diesel oil which is why i never mentioned it in all our oil /zddp conversations here because diesael oils are readily avail and also that the higher lvl of detergent in it blokcs or strips off the ZDDP in some cases remndering it non effective per the LN /Porche oil rept on the net.

Scott

Here is a link to the oil that a lot of area farmers swear by. I could not find any useful info in their MSDS sheets but I am going to call them Monday and see what they have to say. I had forgotten about this oil as I had used the DynoPlex in my 6.2 diesel some years ago. I am debating on which oil to change to in my 496 with solid flat and Isky EDM's for next oil change. I can't find any CI-4 oil in Rotella or Delo 15-40. Will let you know what I find out. Some interesting stuff in the site if you want to nose around.

http://www.universallubes.com/index.html

Jeff

Couldn't agree more with that statement!! I have followed this oil "thing" from the beginning and it continues to be a rather "cloudy" issue. Thank you to Scott for at least spearheading the quest for some real info. we can use. Thanks too, to the others who have posted info and / or websites to visit for more info. For those of us in "snow country", the cruising season will be winding down shortly. I hope there is some good news over the winter.

Duke

Tony,thats just the point here,most people that rbld these 30-40 tr old bbc/sbc muscle cars do install aftermaket perf cams that have variying degrees of higher valve spring pressures/rates and the oil sold today with under .12-.14% ZDDP will not safely potect the perf cams with higher spring rates .

But thanks for posting the info you got from valvoline,its much appreciated.

Did you ask the majic qusestion,WAS THE ZDDP TEST DATA OBTAINED FROM OIL THAT WAS MFG & TESTED POST 1/2007 to ensure you got relivant ZDDP #'s?

I ask this because i have seen valvolines product data sheets omline that were dated 2005/2.75 yrs old and if the person that ans your email reffered to that old data its not reflective of what being mfg today IMHO.

I am not trying to discredit what you have done,its great but after running into so much outdate info and stone walls from oil mfg's when it comes to this ZDDP stuff i am just trying to ensure the #'s you got were up to date & current.

I had also seen oil tests done on valvolines 20w-50 earlier on 2007 that showed leaas then .1% zddp which is another reason i am questioning to ensure oil test was done on oil mfg post 1/2007.

But your right that the reduced zddp was supposed to target the lighter visc oil fuel concerving oils like 5w-20/5w-30/10w-30/10w-40 but not higher vis but thats not the case. some mfgs just caried the lower zddp pkg thru thier other higher visc like 15w-40 & 20w-50 soils that are not labeled NSL/For off road racing only so we need to be caserfull.


Thanks...Scott

TONY, IT'S NOT ME COMMING UP WITH THE .12%-.14% REC LVL OF ZDDP TO RUN FOR FLAT TAPPET CAMS,I GOT IT FROM THE LN OIL TEST REPT DONE EARLIER THIS YR,HERE IS THE REC FROM THAT REPT I CUT & PASTED DIRECTLY BELOW FOR YOU TO SEE :

(I recommend using 1 bottle (pint) of GM EOS with every oil change if the oil you are using has less than the recommended 1200-1400 ppm (0.12-0.14%) Zn and P. If the oil you want to use has less than 1000 ppm (0.10%) Zn and P, choose a different oil, since you will need to add too much of the GM EOS to boost this.)
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Also,i have not checked recently but earlier this yr the product data sheets on Valvolines site were infact dated 2005 when i read them,you can choose to believe it or not but thats what the date was at that time. Maybe Valvoline updated them due to all the questions they were recieving about ZDDP lvl's which would be a good thing.

I also found a few other oil mfg's that had outdated prodcut data sheets at the time so
Valvoline was not the only oil mfg with that situation.

Lastly i am aware that the non fuel saving heavier visc oils were not supposed to be involved in the ZDDP reduction but in that same 2007 oil test mentioned above Valvolines NSL 20w-50 racing oil showed less then .1% zddp.

Note-i realize Valvoilines VR1 & NSL 20w-50 racing oils are 2 dif oils so i cant speak for the way it's listed with VR-1 & NSL in the same line . But with that said either way both heavier garade racing oils that should have higher then .1% ZDDP AND THEY DIDNT which you can see pasted below from that same oil test rept done earlier this yr. Here is the Valvoline oil test data pasted directly below.

Valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 835ppm(P)/976ppm(Zn)/03/07(test date)/DINO (oil type)
Valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 842 962 03/07 SYN

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Also,you stated ".13% and .14% does meet 1300 and 1400 ppm, so .1% would still be 1000 ppm of Zinc."

Well,since your new on the block here in t/chevelle you may not be aware that i have been spending a lot of my own time researcing this ZDDP subject for the good part of a yr now and i am well aware that .1% = 1000ppm etc,but thanks anyway.

I emailed Valvoline asking for zddp data on thier racing oils and they would not give me that info,not good customer service because giving ZDDP #'s is not giving away any secret product info at all.

And i really do hope that the valvoline racing 20w-50 oils do have .12% or above zddp but if i were going to run it i would have it tested by an indipendent lab to ensure my $4k motors flat tappet cam is properly protected. I say this because of the conflicting data of valvolines own zddp #'s vs the independent lab test results that showed lower ZDDP lvl's than valvoline stated.

Again,dont kill the messenger (ME),i am just passing on info i have taken from a reputable engineering test firm for others to digest here in t/chevelle.


Scott

Talked to Universal Oils a little bit ago. I talked to Michael about the zinc and phosphorus levels. They make an oil called Service-Pro Heavy Duty Diesel that has .14-.15% Zinc and .13-.14% Phosphorus. He read this off an MSDS sheet for this oil: http://service-pro.com/documents/SPCT1540P.pdf He told me that they do not give out the info I requested publicly but he read this off the MSDS while I had him on the phone. I never told him what levels I was after or their intended usage. Just asked him if they made any CI-4 oils yet and what the zinc and Phos %'s were. Just thought I'd pass it on. He was very glad to help and was courteous to talk to.
Jeff

Chevron also still mfgs a CI diesel oil too with plenty of ZDDP,its the increased lvl of detrgent in the diesel oils that was question By Nascar/Porche per the LN oil rept done earlier in 2007.

It stated that the high detergent lvl in the diesel oils can interupt, block ,or in some case strip the ZDDP portection off the cam/lifters if you believe the NASCAR & PORCHE oil/engine testing,i tend to believe it because they have nothing much to gain from stating that.

But Joe Ggibb's racing that also stated stated the same thing conerning the high lvl of detergent in oil causing issues with ZDDP protection and they could gain from it by seeling more of their pricey racing oil with enhanced ZDDP lvl's & less detergent.

For this reason I dont feel comfortable trusting the diesel oil to portect the flat tappet cam in my motor even though i have no way of really knowing if high detergent lvl's stops proper ZDDP protection.

Scott

For this reason I dont feel comfortable trusting the diesel oil to portect the flat tappet cam in my motor even though i have no way of really knowing if high detergent lvl's stops proper ZDDP protection.

Me too. At the seminar, many of the guys there run the diesel oils also. I think I'll just switch over to the Gibbs oils. Why not? Everything I heard there makes sense to me. It's funny, isnt it? We spend thousands of dollars on our engines....big bucks on cams and lifters, but we balk at spending from 60 to maybe 85 bucks on an oil that many of us run an entire season! (Yep, Im guilty!!:yes:) I'll just watch the reports and research as it comes out. If anything warrants a change, nothing says I cant roll with it.