i guess there is a few different monitors out there i was thinking of getting the 125 dollar unit from eddy so i could do alittle more carb tunning to get my set ups closer before heading to the track.....and just relying on the 1/4 mile......as most of you know track time to dial in a carb takes many passes but i was thinking of getting on of these to get it real close at home so that way at the track i can move up and down on the jetting and what not maximize my trap speeds...........

one had replied that the eddy unit was useless............just would like some comments from those of you who use them....and why is the eddy junk.........im just wanting something to get me close then let the tracl mph decide final jetting........thanks

There is alot of talk about wideband sensors, but I am happy with my ARM1 4-wire heated unit.
It heats up quick and responds immediately to changes in a/f, such as a quick stab on the throttle, etc.
It also clued me into a vacuum leak right away on startup today, as I felt that the engine was "missing" but wasn't sure, but as the A/F meter heated up, it was a near dead-lean and idle was high, I knew instantly that a vacuum leak was probably the cause, and it was.
I think this is a good unit for the money, the heated on can be had for like $145 I think. My car runs very rich, but even straying away from stoich, it seems to be on the ball, despite people saying it really can't be.
For the $$, maybe I should have gone with a cheaper wideband, but this seems to do the trick. I bought it mainly to see if I am running lean at the end of the track, but it works well for other purposes.

just my .02

Installation was easy as well, except I could never find the place to tap in my fuse block for when I turn my gauge lights on for auto-dim at night, so its really annoying to drive at night with that bright-blue LED in my eyeball. I don't drive the car much at night anyway.

Matt

I have the Edelbrock unit. It allowed me to see the difference in the fuel curve between jet sizes 2 numbers apart. Works for me.

Get a true wide band sensor or don't bother.
I have tested a bunch of different so called accurate heated units against a pretty good $2000 plus one on my dyno & have found none to be linear period.
They will tell you if you are rich or lean in relation to stiocometric & as Marv said they will respond almost instantly but the only place they are consistantly accurate is at stiocometric.
The narrow band sensors were not designed to read AFR, they were designed to bring a computer controled fuel system back to stiocometric during cruise conditions.

For about $350 you can buy a true wide band very accurate one with digital readout & the capability to record 44 minutes of data plus many other features while you are driving & it comes with the cable to download the info into your computer for graphing or display in real time or later.
This unit is as close to the high dollar ones as anything I have seen.
So close it becomes a toss up as to which one you want to believe
It is the Innovate & if you email me I can probably save you a buck or two on it. ;)
You can check it out here:
Innovate (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/home.php)

What about the Mac tool one ?

Is 490.00 CDN so 20.00US just joking 310 US

they work well..

I have one of the cheaper non-wideband o2 sensors....the only big help it has been is diagnosing engine bogs or hiccups...its a hell of alot easier to see if your getting a lean bog or a rich bog with it. As for fine tuning I wouldn't trust it at all.

Originally posted by accontrol:
What about the Mac tool one ?

Is 490.00 CDN so 20.00US just joking 310 US

they work well.. =
Is it a true wide band or a 4 wire?
Again, at least in my opinion if you are wanting to tune your fuel ratio or actually see where it truly is you need a wide band one.
There is a reason all the late cars use wide band.
It is so the mixture can be controlled under all driving conditions not just at cruise like a narrow band one.
The only reason heat was added to the older ones was so the sensor would "fire" sooner, had nothing to do with accuracy.

The LM-1 is about the best deal out there. Or the Tech edge unit. But one of them has better software than the other. Don't recall which.

The output of a NB is very steeply curved. So a very small change in voltage out is a very wide change in AFR. Making them useless for fine tuning.
This also makes them very inaccurate at anything other than 14.7 AFR. So and indicated 12.5-1afr might be 13.5 or 11.5 or some other actual afr.
Now if you have plenty of intake heat, a small stock type cam etc. Then your motor might like cruising at 14.7. Not too many people have a 194ish @.050 cam here. And the bigger the cam, the less useful any kind of O2 sensor is. Once you get into the 230 @ .050 range on a sbc. The cam puts so much O2 into the exh. at overlap that it's easier to tune by drivability and plug reading. Or just guess on a afr. Like 17-18:1. Lots of debate right now on some of the efi boards on this. Guys blindly tuning to 14.7 at idle and then can't go in the garage because of the smell.
And, these new units are actually copies of circuits that have been available on the net since 1998 or so. They just kind've stole them according to the guys that designed them. The guys that sell the new ones were in on the original design. Beta testers or something....

In short, you can only use a NB as and indicator only. Meaning rich or lean. And any car with headers should use a heated sensor. The non heated ones can cool off during cruise. Especially the one up north...

Originally posted by Scott_68_SS:
...In short, you can only use a NB as and indicator only. Meaning rich or lean. And any car with headers should use a heated sensor. The non heated ones can cool off during cruise. Especially the one up north... I have the Edelbrock one in my 69, and it helps get the carb close when switching them back and forth. I agree that it isn't going to do more than that though. I gutted it and installed it in the dash.

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/ZZ69chevelle/AF.jpg

I tried the Edelbrock and I found it difficult to use for any tuning for the same reasons Mike (Wolfplace) already said.

That's a good idea ZZ69..


I use Exhaust Gas Temperatures to fine tune the mixture at WOT and a vacuum gauge at idle.

I have heard good things about the $350 unit he suggested similar to what Mike also said. Spend you money wisely and go for a true wideband unit.

I use the LM-1 cant see how i made it without one.

Made 0,3 sec the first day i used it. Found lean spots in my curve that i dont feel.

It has a logging function so you can log every run and tune after.

Buy a wideband or skip it. You cant tune with a narrowband.

@ cruise you should be within 0.93-0.98 AF. A narrow cant show that.

@ wide open something like 0.84-0,86 will perform best. A narrow cant show that.

with nitrous, a narrow cant show that...

so as i read thru the post the eddy air fuel ratio isnt going to do nothing for me?

i was just looking for something cheap to get me close before i can go to the track. the track would be my final jetting.

i just thought maybe i could use the eddy to make sure i wasnt running to rich at max rpm or to lean at max rpm.......and thought maybe i could set my primary jets for a somewhat close for cruising down the highway.....kinda be on the lean side but not so much im not hurting nothing...........basically to make sure my cruise speed at 70 mph i wasnt wasting a bunch of gas with the jetting be to high......

Originally posted by mc71454:
I tried the Edelbrock and I found it difficult to use for any tuning for the same reasons Mike (Wolfplace) already said.


I use Exhaust Gas Temperatures to fine tune the mixture at WOT and a vacuum gauge at idle.

. what kinda temps are you looking at........were do you need to take temps from......i have a heat gun i use to take temps with ...what kinda temps are needed say at idle.........just curious about exhaust temps and how they can be useful in tunning.......

just as a note guys i spend alot of time tunning practice runs out on the side road stoping reading plugs.....tunning with vacuum gauge.......and tune some more at the track for final mph settings........

i guess i was looking for something to get the carb closer before i got to the track...instead of in and out of the car pulling plugs and what not.........

ddennis,
What they are trying to tell you is that a narrow band o2 sensor like the eddy unit is good for looking at A/F ratios around 14.7/1 (stoichiometric). As you move away from that ratio, they are not accurate. Since most cars make best wot power at a richer ratio (~12.8/1),a narrow band sensor wont be useful here. It will say that you are rich at wot but wont tell you accurately how rich you are.

Doc

Originally posted by ddeennis:
just as a note guys i spend alot of time tunning practice runs out on the side road stoping reading plugs.....tunning with vacuum gauge.......and tune some more at the track for final mph settings........

i guess i was looking for something to get the carb closer before i got to the track...instead of in and out of the car pulling plugs and what not......... ddeennis:

So, what was the outcome of your searching for your Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor? We need to add one to our '69, and it appears there was a wide range of suggestions for you to ponder.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I have the Techedge 2.0 wideband. I like it and it has helped me a lot in the tuning of my EFI. One thing the TE has that most other wideband don't is a remote display. I mounted it in the upper windshield corner. The control box is behind the dash. TE has DIY kit and prebuilts. I got the DIY kit and including sensor etc, I have $250 in the system. You have to be pretty good at soldering for the DIY kit, though.

/Markus

Originally posted by zwede:
I have the Techedge 2.0 wideband. I like it and it has helped me a lot in the tuning of my EFI. One thing the TE has that most other wideband don't is a remote display. I mounted it in the upper windshield corner. The control box is behind the dash. TE has DIY kit and prebuilts. I got the DIY kit and including sensor etc, I have $250 in the system. You have to be pretty good at soldering for the DIY kit, though.

/Markus We need to be able to tune our EDEL. 850 for not only rich/lean, but for altitude/climate changes. The altitude at Bonneville is very high, El Mirage is much, much lower in altitude, therefore, you can see quite a difference in tuning the car.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Get the Innovate unit. It allows you to datalog RPM, MAP, etc as well and is super cost effective.

Better than looking at the gauge the entire run at Bonneville...

Originally posted by Doug F.:
Get the Innovate unit. It allows you to datalog RPM, MAP, etc as well and is super cost effective.

Better than looking at the gauge the entire run at Bonneville... WOW! These replys/recommendations are coming faster than we can type!

Where does the unit mount, and how do you feel having used yours?

We will search both their website, and we just noticed that Summit offers-

INN-3723 @ $349.95

Precise air/fuel readings for carbureted or EFI engines.

Data Aquistion, Air/Fuel Monitor LM-1, Meter, Sensor, Power and Serial Cables, Bung/Plug, Software, Kit

Finally, there's a tool that carburetor and fuel injection fans can share--Innovative Technology's LM-1 wideband air/fuel ratio monitors. The fully digital monitors take the guesswork out of tuning by delivering the exact air/fuel ratio instead of just reading rich or lean, and they're self-calibrating to give you accurate readings. The LM-1s measure data 12 times per second for up to 44 minutes. The data can be downloaded to a PC with the included serial cable and software so you can graph multiple sessions. Instead of spending hours tweaking and tuning your carburetor, use the LM-1s to get the information you need, tune your carb, and be done. Tuning a fuel injection system involves many variables, but the optional auxiliary-input cable provides up to 5 simultaneous readings, for a more complete view of an engine system's performance. For example, you can measure and graph specific air/fuel ratios in relation to rpm, MAF, MAP, TPI, and more. The LM-1 kits include a Bosch wide-band oxygen sensor and cable, cigarette lighter power adapter, serial cable for PC, 9 V battery, exhaust bung and plug, quick-start guide, and a CD with software and manual.

Vendor INNOVATE TECHNOLOGY INC
Product Line Innovate LM-1 Air/Fuel Ratio Monitors
Quantity Sold as a kit.

INN-3724 @ $449.95

Precise air/fuel readings for carbureted or EFI engines.

Data Aquistion, Air/Fuel Monitor, Meter, Sensor, Power/Serial Cables, Bung/Plug, RPM Converter, Software, Kit

Finally, there's a tool that carburetor and fuel injection fans can share--Innovative Technology's LM-1 with rpm converter wideband air/fuel ratio monitors. The fully digital monitors take the guesswork out of tuning by delivering the exact air/fuel ratio instead of just reading rich or lean, and they're self-calibrating to give you accurate readings. The LM-1 with rpm converters measure data 12 times per second for up to 44 minutes. The data can be downloaded to a PC with the included serial cable and software so you can graph multiple sessions. Instead of spending hours tweaking and tuning your carburetor, use the LM-1 with rpm converters to get the information you need, tune your carb, and be done. Tuning a fuel injection system involves many variables, but the optional auxiliary-input cable provides up to 5 simultaneous readings for a more complete view of an engine system's performance. For example, you can measure and graph specific air/fuel ratios in relation to rpm, MAF, MAP, TPI, and more. The LM-1 with rpm converter kits include a Bosch wideband oxygen sensor and cable, cigarette lighter power adapter, serial cable for PC, 9 V battery, exhaust bung and plug, rpm converter, quick-start guide, and a CD with software and manual.

Vendor INNOVATE TECHNOLOGY INC
Product Line Innovate LM-1 with RPM Converter Air/Fuel Ratio Monitors
Quantity Sold as a kit.

Any rec on which one will best fit our application(s)?

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Another option for you would be to look into a Horiba A/F monitor. They are extremely accurate, and tell you exactly what a/f ratio you are at (not limited to just a few lights, if you are at 12.73:1 a/f ratio, that is what it will display), so accurate I tend to prefer them sometimes over our much more expensive bench analyzer.

Mike

I agree with wolfplace. This WB unit is pretty much the best for the $$... I've used and and it seems to be as dead on as I can tell. We'll find out in march if it goes with what the Dyno says.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/


LM1 A/F Meter. $350

I've got the zeitronix unit. As far as accuracy it has been compared to the LM1. There were a few factors that made me choose it over the other, the only downside is that it has no internal memory for datalogging, however with a laptop it is bad ass! I love mine, I've got bungs and harness' in a couple of cars to make for quick hook up. Gets a thumbs up from me, but definitely get the display!

Oh, forgot to mention, one of the big factors in choosing the Zeitronix was all of the other inputs that you can hook up and see in comparison to when you review. www.zeitronix.com (http://www.zeitronix.com) as i said, the lcd is the only way to go.

Another vote for LM1 ..I've had the NB type and it very limited .... the LM1 is everything and more that's been said so far ..... have a bung in both my cars one Fuel Injected late model and my Chevelle with Holley ..... FWIW

Have anyone tried this method of tunning at http://www.bob2000.com/carb.htm about half way down the page using a multimeter and O2 sensor.
I was planning on using that O2 Sensor w/ my Auto Meter air/fuel meter.

Another vote for the LM-1. My cousin and I share one, he uses it on his EFI cars and I use it on my Holleys. I have to say after using it I can't figure out how I thought I tuned things before. It makes so much difference. The only caution I will give is that you need to pay attention to how the car runs still. Shooting for "storybook perfect" ratios is nice, but it might not be what your engine really needs for best performance.

Originally posted by DEEBOO:
Have anyone tried this method of tunning at http://www.bob2000.com/carb.htm about half way down the page using a multimeter and O2 sensor.
I was planning on using that O2 Sensor w/ my Auto Meter air/fuel meter. You would be basically replicating the cheaper AF meters. They are essentially a DVM with a power supply for the sensor. It would be somewhat usefull for tuning the idle. Everything else, would be totally impossible to get a meaningfull result. He even admits that tuning for WOT is not recomended. I don't know about your cars that you would use this for, but I wouldn't be able to watch the meter at WOT in either one of my cars.

LM-1 is the best aftermarket IMHO. I built my own using the )2 sensor from a V-tec honda(it has a true wideband unlike other cars which have Narow band) this is wired into a Dataq data logger and hooked into my cheapie laptop. I am currently working on being able to log A/F,rpm, and boost (for my turbo setup). If you have the money buy the LM-1 or if you want you can research like I did and build your own. Also EGT is fairly worthless IMO for tuning WBO2 is the only way to go.

I recommend the Innovate Wide Band A/F meter. I've used this to help me tune my 406 for full throttle as well as emmissions tuning. Keep in mind that you cannot use leaded fuel when tuning with an 02 sensor. It kills the sensor$$$$$$$$!

Personally I cannot see tuning without one.

You can use leaded race gas. It just deteriorates the sensor over time. It depends on the type of fuel and lead content. The NTK's seem to last quite a while, I have never had one deteriorate. I am told the LS4U Bosch does not work as well with lead and fuel type and life varies depending on the fuel.

In other words, tune your leaded gas car and take it out and you should be fine, especially with the NTK sensor.

Originally posted by HiTech5:
I recommend the Innovate Wide Band A/F meter. I've used this to help me tune my 406 for full throttle as well as emmissions tuning. Keep in mind that you cannot use leaded fuel when tuning with an 02 sensor. It kills the sensor$$$$$$$$!

Personally I cannot see tuning without one. The Innovate comes with the Bosch sensor which is not that expensive, about $50 & word is the Bosch will not have as long a life as the NTK.
I have both sensors, the Bosch on the Innovate & the NTK on my hi dollar one on the dyno.
The NTK is about 3 years old & has had a lot of leaded fuel & some alcohol run through it without any problems but I don't leave it in the exhaust either. :(
The Innovate is about $350 & the other unit is about $2100.
They read so close you have to decide which one you want to believe ;)
I highly recommend the Innovate,, very cool unit especially considering the price.

If you are considering the Innovate I can probably save you a couple of dollars if you email me.

I ran AVGas through my Golf once. Destroyed the sensor on one tank, it was a Bosch NB. oops.....

Originally posted by Wolfplace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HiTech5:
I recommend the Innovate Wide Band A/F meter. I've used this to help me tune my 406 for full throttle as well as emmissions tuning. Keep in mind that you cannot use leaded fuel when tuning with an 02 sensor. It kills the sensor$$$$$$$$!

Personally I cannot see tuning without one. The Innovate comes with the Bosch sensor which is not that expensive, about $50 & word is the Bosch will not have as long a life as the NTK.
I have both sensors, the Bosch on the Innovate & the NTK on my hi dollar one on the dyno.
The NTK is about 3 years old & has had a lot of leaded fuel & some alcohol run through it without any problems but I don't leave it in the exhaust either. :(
The Innovate is about $350 & the other unit is about $2100.
They read so close you have to decide which one you want to believe ;)
I highly recommend the Innovate,, very cool unit especially considering the price.

If you are considering the Innovate I can probably save you a couple of dollars if you email me. </font>[/QUOTE]INN-3723 @ $349.95

INN-3724 @ $449.95

What's the difference between the 2? Obviously, there is quite a difference, which is an extra $100.00. So what do you get for the extra $100.00?

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

ttt

QUOTE]INN-3723 @ $349.95

INN-3724 @ $449.95

What's the difference between the 2? Obviously, there is quite a difference, which is an extra $100.00. So what do you get for the extra $100.00?

graemlins/thumbsup.gif [/QB][/QUOTE]
=
The 3723 is the LM1
The 3724 is the LM1 with the auxiliary RPM cable
which lets you graph RPM along with AFR or Lambda & has 4 other 0-5volt inputs for about anything else you care to graph.

Any pics or descriptions of where to install the weld in bung? We have the bung, and hopefully (?????) they are the same for both models of the Innovate.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by LVMAXX:
Any pics or descriptions of where to install the weld in bung? We have the bung, and hopefully (?????) they are the same for both models of the Innovate.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif =
Both models are the same, the second just comes with the cable which plugs into the basic unit for more inputs including RPM,, The bung can be welded in any convient location in the collector or in the pipe behind the collector as it is a heated sensor.
Do not put it at the bottom or low on the pipe as condenation can kill the sensor.

When all esle fails,,, follow the instructions :D

Here is an excerpt from the manual that comes with the units
4. 4. Installation
Using a bung is the preferred method for mounting the O 2 sensor for both catalytic and
non-catalytic cars.
On CATALYTIC CONVERTER equipped vehicles:
Bung: Install the oxygen sensor’s bung upstream from the catalytic converter
(a bung and plug is included in the LM-1 kit). Any decent muffler or
exhaust shop can do this for you. The wide-band oxygen sensor is then
installed into the bung to take a reading. (Insert the plug into the bung
when not in use). The bung must be installed in the exhaust pipe at
the side or on top, NOT on the bottom of the exhaust pipe. Best
position is between 10:00 and 2:00 position.

Originally posted by LVMAXX:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ddeennis:
just as a note guys i spend alot of time tunning practice runs out on the side road stoping reading plugs.....tunning with vacuum gauge.......and tune some more at the track for final mph settings........

i guess i was looking for something to get the carb closer before i got to the track...instead of in and out of the car pulling plugs and what not......... ddeennis:

So, what was the outcome of your searching for your Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor? We need to add one to our '69, and it appears there was a wide range of suggestions for you to ponder.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif </font>[/QUOTE]the out come was that i didnt buy one..i just went to the track instead and dialed in the carb based on my mph.......i bought other things to improve on the engine instead of the moniter......it seems like it would be a nice toy to play with (air/fuel monitor) specially if there is no race track i guess......i just let my mph say what jets i need.......lol