Hi guys, winter is almost here and I am looking to upgrade my motor for hopefully a little more horsepower. Making 451 h.p./507touq to the rear wheels on the local dyno. Here are the things I need help on.My present heads are factory 290 GM casting oval port closed chamber heads,with 2.19 intake valves and 1.88 exhaust.With mild porting. They are 100cc chambers and give me around 10.25-10.35 compression.I'm running a Ultra Dyne solid cam. .601/625 lift, 251/259 duration @ .50 on 108 seperation.I am looking at the canfield 310 rect. heads with 110 cnc'd chambers and bowl blending.Will the 110 cc chambers bring my compression to low for my cam or can I angle mill the heads to 100 cc chambers. Also last but not least can I use my Holley strip Dominator single plane oval port manifold with these heads.How much power will I pick up with this head swap. Wolfplace,Ken Jett,and anybody with experiance with this swap please way in.

Thanks
kwik66
66 chevelle
468cu/in
3500 stall
4.10,with dick miller sup.

10cc's is alot. Hopefully Ken, Mike or others with firsthand knowledge of the Canfield's ( or how much you can shrink the chambers)will chime in.

I have a set in the back that I think are at 106cc. That is an out of the box chamber that just had the head milled.

450 RWHP is pretty decent for your combo.

I don't use Canfields so I can't tell you for sure but getting to 100 is going to be pretty tough if the chamber started out as an open chamber 119.
If it's a closed chamber 110 or the chamber is actually designed as a 110 originally it should be no problem.
You are only talking about .050 to .060 thou depending on chamber design on a flat mill.
It will take about .070-.090 on an angle mill.

I would call Canfield & find out what the original chamber design is & how far you can go.

AFR's will go to about 112 flat & 102 on an angle mill.
Don't forget you lose piston to valve clearance as you cut ;)

You will need a new intake.

Which head are you starting out with? Canfield offers 3 different chamber volumes in the 310cc head: 113cc, 119cc and 125cc. I myself have the 119cc heads and I'm using a Wiseco K117A3 piston that has a +36cc/.455" dome. My pistons were fly cut to 32cc. With this combination I have a compression ratio of 10.37:1 (block deck .010 and .041 compressed gasket). It's interesting that you ask this question. My engine has ~5,000 street miles and 340 passes on it and I'll soon be pulling it out to freshen it up. I'm looking to raise my compression up to ~11:1. I spoke with my machinist who is familiar with the Canfield heads and he said they can easily be angle milled .250" or more. However the problem that I have (as Mike pointed out above) is piston to valve clearance. Mine is as follows:

Intake Exhaust
Max lift .658 Max Lift .661
.455 @ 20* BTDC .195 @ 20 BBDC
.345 @ 15* BTDC .165 @ 15* BBDC
.280 @ 10* BTDC .155 @ 10* BBDC
.220 @ 5* BTDC .160 @ 5 BBDC
.180 @ TDC .190 @ BDC
.150 @ 5* ABDC .225 @ 5* ATDC
.147 @ 10* ABDC .295 @ 10 ATDC
.158 @ 15* ABDC .365 @ 15 ATDC
.185 @ 20* ABDC .450 @ 20 ATDC


So the minimum piston to valve clearance on my current setup is .147 intake and .155 exhaust. The exhaust clearance is most critical and most call for a minimum of .090-.100.

I'm prolly going to have my heads milled ~.025. I'm also going to change heads gasket from a FelPro 1071 which has a gasket bore of 4.540 and a compressed height of .041 to a FelPro 1027 which has a gasket bore of 4.370 and a compressed height of .039. This will take the quench from .051 to .049 and compression will be a tad over 11:1. If you know the compression ratio that you will have with the new heads (uncut) and the compression ratio you desire you can determine how much will need to be milled off using the following formula:

amount to mill = (new disp. ratio/ old disp. ratio/new disp. ratio * old disp. ratio) * stroke

disp. ratio = displacement ratio and is always 1pt less than compression ratio. For example, a compression ratio of 11:1 will have a displacement ratio of 10:1. I used this formula to get an approximation of how much will need to be milled off my heads. My current compression ratio is 10.37:1 and desired ratio is 11:1. (11 - 10.37/11 * 10.37) = .0055 * 4 = .022. So if my math is correct I would need to have my heads milled .022" to get to an 11:1 compression ratio. According to my machinist this level of milling will not usually require modification of the intake manifold. Maybe Mike can verify my math and the statement about intake milling/spacers.

You will like the Canfield heads. Myself and a couple others that post hear regularly have had good luck with them and as you're already aware they are very reasonably priced.

HTH.

Ken....just thought I'd chime in....why do you limit your comp. to 11-1?..Ask your machinist about cutting to a specific valve drop,the heads that is. Why not cut them as much as is practicle?I assume your thinking pump gas. To me .025 isnt going to make much difference.Make everthing tight it'll fly!......I promise.......Bill says he wants a rubber match smile.gif

Btw....Ken should the clearance figures be Int.-.147@10deg.ATDC....EX.,.155@10 deg.BTDC.?..I think you were showing them as ABDC and BBDC. ;)

[ Originally posted by kjett:
Which head are you starting out with? Canfield offers 3 different chamber volumes in the 310cc head: 113cc, 119cc and 125cc. I myself have the 119cc heads and I'm using a Wiseco K117A3 piston that has a +36cc/.455" dome. My pistons were fly cut to 32cc. With this combination I have a compression ratio of 10.37:1 (block deck .010 and .041 compressed gasket). It's interesting that you ask this question. My engine has ~5,000 street miles and 340 passes on it and I'll soon be pulling it out to freshen it up. I'm looking to raise my compression up to ~11:1. I spoke with my machinist who is familiar with the Canfield heads and he said they can easily be angle milled .250" or more. However the problem that I have (as Mike pointed out above) is piston to valve clearance. Mine is as follows:

Intake Exhaust
Max lift .658 Max Lift .661
.455 @ 20* BTDC .195 @ 20 BBDC
.345 @ 15* BTDC .165 @ 15* BBDC
.280 @ 10* BTDC .155 @ 10* BBDC
.220 @ 5* BTDC .160 @ 5 BBDC
.180 @ TDC .190 @ BDC
.150 @ 5* ABDC .225 @ 5* ATDC
.147 @ 10* ABDC .295 @ 10 ATDC
.158 @ 15* ABDC .365 @ 15 ATDC
.185 @ 20* ABDC .450 @ 20 ATDC


So the minimum piston to valve clearance on my current setup is .147 intake and .155 exhaust. The exhaust clearance is most critical and most call for a minimum of .090-.100.

I'm prolly going to have my heads milled ~.025. I'm also going to change heads gasket from a FelPro 1071 which has a gasket bore of 4.540 and a compressed height of .041 to a FelPro 1027 which has a gasket bore of 4.370 and a compressed height of .039. This will take the quench from .051 to .049 and compression will be a tad over 11:1. If you know the compression ratio that you will have with the new heads (uncut) and the compression ratio you desire you can determine how much will need to be milled off using the following formula:

amount to mill = (new disp. ratio/ old disp. ratio/new disp. ratio * old disp. ratio) * stroke

disp. ratio = displacement ratio and is always 1pt less than compression ratio. For example, a compression ratio of 11:1 will have a displacement ratio of 10:1. I used this formula to get an approximation of how much will need to be milled off my heads. My current compression ratio is 10.37:1 and desired ratio is 11:1. (11 - 10.37/11 * 10.37) = .0055 * 4 = .022. So if my math is correct I would need to have my heads milled .022" to get to an 11:1 compression ratio. According to my machinist this level of milling will not usually require modification of the intake manifold. Maybe Mike can verify my math and the statement about intake milling/spacers.

You will like the Canfield heads. Myself and a couple others that post hear regularly have had good luck with them and as you're already aware they are very reasonably priced.

HTH. =
Hi Ken,
I think you need to change the BBDC to BTDC & ABDC to ATDC on your chart ;)

Are the Canfields different chamber designs or are they just milled to different sizes?

You are right, at .022 the intake shouldn't be a problem.

You didn't mention where you got the .0055 from but it is the average that you take off a Rat head per cc.

Brodix uses .005 flat milling & .0066angle.
AFR is .006 flat & .009 angle??
I think both are dependant on angle & it also varies by depth.
I use the smaller number & check when I get close :D
Who ever does the heads make sure they correct the intake face of the head not the manifold.
Otherwise you end up married to that manifold.


The only place you need to be concerned with p/v clearance is from 5 to 15 ATDC for the intake & 15 to 5 BTDC for the exhaust during overlap.

I see Joe already noticed,,,,
See what happens when you wander off to dinner :D

Well you guys caught an error I didn't, but I have to say it....

Ken, your precision is admirable!

Originally posted by joespanova:
Btw....Ken should the clearance figures be Int.-.147@10deg.ATDC....EX.,.155@10 deg.BTDC.?..I think you were showing them as ABDC and BBDC. ;) You caught me. It was a typo smile.gif That's the beauty of cut and paste. Get it wrong once and you get it wrong a bunch :D

Originally posted by joespanova:
Bill says he wants a rubber match smile.gif Is that anything like a rematch? If so, I'm game as always :D Can't let him beat up on the baby big blocks. I just pulled the coil over off the front end tonight and put the stock lower control arms and some MOOG 6 cylinder springs. Ya'll bring your stuff on over to Carolina next month and let's get it on!

Thanks for the replys guys. I have been gone for a couple of days, so I couldn't get back on line. It looks like the rec. port, Mill for compression option my not be my best bet. Does anybody have any ideas for a set of new aluminum heads for my motor to pick up some H.P.? Maybe the eldebrock aluminum oval ports, with some porting? Then I can use my oval port intake. Does AFR, Dart, or anyone else make an oval port head around 100cc that might work. Any information I can get will help. Really what to go aluminum heads for the weight, and also would like to pick up so H.P. too.

Thanks guys
kwik66

kwik66
The AFR ovals will probably not be available before the middle of next year.

The Brodix Race Rite will go to about 100 on an angle mill.
This is going to bring the valves closer to the pistons so you would need to check p/v clearance.

It is a special order option as they cut them & correct the intake before drilling the bolts etc so their are no alignment problems.

If you are interested email me.
I have pretty good pricing on them. ;)

. I just pulled the coil over off the front end tonight and put the stock lower control arms and some MOOG 6 cylinder springs. Ya'll bring your stuff on .......Why did you change you're stuff when the car works so well?

this was for Ken........sorry ,brain fart! graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/clonk.gif

kwik66,
I was mistaken when I told you the valves would be closer to the deck or pistons on the Brodix heads.

I talked to them today about this & what they do for the smaller chamber is angle machine the head to reduce the chamber size before any finish work or seat installation is done so you lose very little if any p/v clearance.

The head can be done down to 100-101cc's with the CNC chamber option.

Sorry for the misinformation graemlins/clonk.gif

Mike,Wolfplace

Thanks for taking the time to talk to Brodix. The heads you are talking about are aluminum,oval port heads, right? If I have them milled to 100cc cnc'd chambers, and bowl blended, what kind of power increase am I looking at over my present cast 290 factory ovals,as I discribed in my first post.I'm interested in this brodix option. Is there a web site I can go to to learn more about them?

Thanks
Dave, kwik66

What's wrong with E-brock's 100 cc aluminum "roval" heads since you want to stay "oval port"??

And if you are running true flat-tops, angle mill them down to 90 cc's...

Just asking or did I mess this in all the posts??

pdq67

pdq67

My pistons are trw forged, with floating pins, with a .095 dome. The E-brocks will put me right at the same compression I am at right know. I haven't ruled them out,but if I can make more power&touque with the Brodix heads that Mike is talking about,I think I would like to go Brodix.
Wolfplace, What are your thoughts on the E-brock heads.

thanks guys
Kwik66(Dave)

Dave,
The Brodix RR series are a 270cc oval port with the exhaust in the stock locations.
With the CNC chamber I would expect a pretty good gain over any stock casting.
Brodix says they are worth about 50HP over the stock unported head & while you can bowl blend them I think you will find the out of the box head very nice.

You might post to Bill (CDNSS) & ask him what he thinks of these over the as cast ones as he has seen both.
Here is the Brodix site.
Brodix (http://brodix.com/)
------LOOK UNDER "NEW PRODUCTS"---------

I do not normally use EDE heads so I can't really comment on them except to say the EDE with the 100cc chamber has it's place & is probably a very nice head.

But I think the AFR & Brodix names pretty much speak for themselves with regard to performance & quality ;)
Very nice stuff in my opinion,,

If you email me I have pretty good pricing on them also

============EDIT=================
THE HEADS ARE UNDER NEW PRODUCTS ON THEIR SITE

I thought the Brodix ovals looked pretty good, having seen them on display at the Orlando show.
If they are standard issue, as presented, I`m impressed