So I have a 69 chevelle and it has a 454 in it that is decently built. Right now it has a worn out turbo 350 in it and the stall slips way too much. The rearend is a 3.73 posi rear. We love to drive the car, especially to places like Nashville for chevelle-a-bration, which is about 800 miles each way. I have gotten the go ahead to replace the tranny this winter, and was wondering, which you would do, manual or auto, and why? Now keep in mind, no matter which way I go it will be an OD tranny. We do like to cruise with the car quite a bit as well. If I do an auto it will be a 4 speed auto, if it's a manual it will be at least a 5 speed.

So I am looking for your opinions on which way to go and some reasons why you think I should do that.

Thanks everybody!!!

Jeff

it must have been pretty worn - something keeps banging on the floor :)

I've got a 2004r, stock, from a 1987 Olds Cutlass. You could get one from Bowtie OVerdrives that would be beefier for the BBC. It should be a direct bolt in replacement for the 350 except for the crossmember will need to be moved back 4 inches or so.

it must have been pretty worn - something keeps banging on the floor :)

I've got a 2004r, stock, from a 1987 Olds Cutlass. You could get one from Bowtie OVerdrives that would be beefier for the BBC. It should be a direct bolt in replacement for the 350 except for the crossmember will need to be moved back 4 inches or so.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me of that;) Did I ever tell you I found the stock rubber mount had broken? Found that when we got home. I figure it probably broke somewhere on the pot hole riddled gravel dumps Illinois calls highways.

The 2004r is on my list of potential candidates. I just am not certain if I really just want to put it in gear and go, or do I want to row my own gears? The 5 or 6 speed manual sounds like a ton of fun too. Either way it will be a much better drive down to see you guys next year without having to deal with so much RPM on the highway.

Jeff

Since you already have a Turbo 350, a well built 200R4 should be at the top of the list for ease of installation. Same length, same driveshaft yoke, etc. Just get a Shiftworks OD conversion kit. Simple as it gets.

TKO 500.
leave the auto trannies for lazy people and people in wheelchairs.

TKO 500.
leave the auto trannies for lazy people and people in wheelchairs.

LMAO, what do you really think Derrik? :)

Manuals are fun Jeff. :)

Since you already have a Turbo 350, a well built 200R4 should be at the top of the list for ease of installation. Same length, same driveshaft yoke, etc. Just get a Shiftworks OD conversion kit. Simple as it gets.

Notice I am in Wisconsin, I have nothing but time when it comes to the car starting at about the end of October all the way thru April;) Ease of installation really doesn't matter much in this case. Although if I do choose to go auto, it will most likely be a 2004r for the very reasons you mentioned. One reason I would lean toward the auto is that I already have the auto console in the car, and wouldn't have to replace it, although my console is far from perfect anyways.

It just seems like a built big block in front of a 5 or 6 speed would be sooooo much fun. At the same time though I am lazy, and do like just throwing it in gear and going when I want to. What to do, what to do...............

LMAO, what do you really think Derrik? :)

Manuals are fun Jeff. :)

No doubt!! So Dan is your blown car a manual? If so what do you use for a clutch? Is it super stiff? I just don't want to get in a situation where I am in stop and go traffic, (like a nice cruise night around here), and regret the clutch. Now the TKO500 is likely what I would go with, or the TKO600, and that overdrive is extremely important to me.

Jeff

Do you want to row gears or not?

The 200-4R is the cheapest and easiest route for an auto and they work well when built properly.

I'd say another option would be a 4L80E overdrive. You'd need some type of transmission controller too but then you could fully adjust how it shifts and the converter locks up. Honestly, just for the adjustability this would be high on my list. You can do the same with a 4L60E but I consider them to be a marginal tranny behind a big block.

A T56 is a fun stick and would be ok in your car. They're pretty tough but if you're running sticky rubber then you could possibly break it.

Peter

Do you want to row gears or not?

The 200-4R is the cheapest and easiest route for an auto and they work well when built properly.

I'd say another option would be a 4L80E overdrive. You'd need some type of transmission controller too but then you could fully adjust how it shifts and the converter locks up. Honestly, just for the adjustability this would be high on my list. You can do the same with a 4L60E but I consider them to be a marginal tranny behind a big block.

A T56 is a fun stick and would be ok in your car. They're pretty tough but if you're running sticky rubber then you could possibly break it.

Peter

For the most part I don't race the car. It may see one or two trips down the track a year, but as of yet it hasn't and I only live three miles from a 1/4 mile dragstrip!! So for the most part I only use street rubber, I used to run on Hoosier quicktime pros, but they were so soft you could watch the rubber melt on the road without even getting on the accelerator.

And yes, I do want to row my own, but like I said, I don't want to regret it in stop and go traffic.

Jeff

If you put in a Stick, my recomendation fun factor. Just use a good Centerforce Clutch. No heavy clutch pedal at all.
Mike

gee, did i offend a couple of people?
sorry about that..
i should have stated that of the 5 vehicles i own- 1 has a 700r4, one a 4L60E, a 200-4R, a C6, and whatever the crappy trans is in my 94 Chrysler LHS..
i haven't even owned a manual trans since i got rid of the Nova in the fall of '04- but i sure do miss it. it was no big deal to sit in stop and go traffic with it. i've got the manual trans clutch and brake pedals for my Monte, so all i need is either money or for someone to give me a T56 and hydraulic throwout bearing setup..

Has anyone converted their auto to a 5 speed manual? I was looking at Keisler because they have their perfect fit kits which should make it much easier to do, but the kit is about $4500. Does that seem really high, or about right or what? I don't have an unlimited budget, but that would fit it, although I definitely don't want to spend more than I have too.

Jeff

Has anyone converted their auto to a 5 speed manual? I was looking at Keisler because they have their perfect fit kits which should make it much easier to do, but the kit is about $4500. Does that seem really high, or about right or what? I don't have an unlimited budget, but that would fit it, although I definitely don't want to spend more than I have too.

JeffI converted from an auto to Tremec 5 speed TKO500. I love the trans and you cant beat the fun factor with a stick shift big block car.
With the healthy 427 and 3.31 rear gear I get 18mpg on the highway driving 75-80 mph.
You wont regret it if you go manual. I got my set up from Jeff at "Classic Chevy 5 speed" and it wasnt anywhere near $4500.00
Ron

200R4 if you are going to drag race it alot, otherwise put a TKO600 in it. Loads-O-Fun IMO! :thumbsup:

Also Jeff @ "Classic" :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Well I have got one letter and two numbers for you.

M
2
2

:D

So what if it's not a 5 speed. :)

Well I have got one letter and two numbers for you.

M
2
2

:D

So what if it's not a 5 speed. :)Drive a car with an M22 for a few days, then drive a car with a 5 speed for 1 day, you WILL prefer the 5 speed. M22 has that "zing" when you say it but the 5 speed will make you happy every time you drive it, no matter where you go.
Ron

Has anyone converted their auto to a 5 speed manual? I was looking at Keisler because they have their perfect fit kits which should make it much easier to do, but the kit is about $4500. Does that seem really high, or about right or what? I don't have an unlimited budget, but that would fit it, although I definitely don't want to spend more than I have too.

Jeff

Keep in mind this is very complete with all peices needed.

You can do it cheaper with used parts.

You can save $400 by buying our standard Chevelle kit. The perfect fit has a better shifter and less cutting on the tunnel.

Good luck

Gene

Keep in mind this is very complete with all peices needed.

You can do it cheaper with used parts.

You can save $400 by buying our standard Chevelle kit. The perfect fit has a better shifter and less cutting on the tunnel.

Good luck

Gene

Wow I didn't know we had someone from Keisler on this site, that is going to be very helpful in the coming months. I guess what I am interested in finding out is how much more work others have had to do to do the conversion their way vs. just doing the Keisler Perfect Fit kit. I really like the idea of doing the Keisler way just because I have never messed with manuals before, and the cost may be justified if I don't have to screw around trying to piece something together that I don't quite know about.

Gene do you have any other info you could send to me about this kit?

As for the M22 suggestion, I appreciate the suggestion, but the M22 wouldn't even make my list of possibles. First and foremost, the number one reason I am going to change transmissions at all is to get an overdrive in the car. Secondly I have driven M22 equipped cars and they are not comparable to a newer 5 speed car. You can call an M22 classic or whatever you want, I like to drive my car and I don't want to be miserable in the process. If I can stick a TKO600 in the car and get the same thing as an M22 plus another OD gear and make it easier to drive, then the M22 would just be silly to do.

Jeff

I wished the Richmond 1 to 1 ratio, 5th gear, 5-speed could handle at least 600 t and shifted like butter b/c I would run either 2.73's or 3.07's behind it to handle BB power!

Only b/c a 1 to 1 ratio high geared stick tranny is more eff. than an OD one is all!

pdq67

I wished the Richmond 1 to 1 ratio, 5th gear, 5-speed could handle at least 600 t and shifted like butter b/c I would run either 2.73's or 3.07's behind it to handle BB power!

Only b/c a 1 to 1 ratio high geared stick tranny is more eff. than an OD one is all!

pdq67


The TKO600 is a 5 speed with 1 to 1 4th gear ratio and rated to 600 ft. lbs of torque.

Jeff

yeah, but PDQ doesn't want an overdrive- using a lower numerical gear ratio in the rear axle will get the same final drive ratio in top gear as a deeper rear gear with an overdrive.
the first gear of the Richmond 5 speed is deeper to compensate for the highway gears off the line.
there might be an efficiency difference between the 2 setups, but i think they would end up about the same. even tho the 1:1 final drive of the Richmond might eat less power than the overdrive of the TKO600, the highway gears are probably harder to turn than the deeper gears.

yeah, but PDQ doesn't want an overdrive- using a lower numerical gear ratio in the rear axle will get the same final drive ratio in top gear as a deeper rear gear with an overdrive.
the first gear of the Richmond 5 speed is deeper to compensate for the highway gears off the line.
there might be an efficiency difference between the 2 setups, but i think they would end up about the same. even tho the 1:1 final drive of the Richmond might eat less power than the overdrive of the TKO600, the highway gears are probably harder to turn than the deeper gears.

Direct drive (1-1) is always more efficient because it suffers no losses through friction at the gear face on either a manual or auto trans.
I also believe lower numerical ring and pinion gears suffer less loss also.
So a direct drive trans with a highway gear would be more efficient, not to speak of driveshaft speeds.
Slower driveline speeds would also introduce lower frictional losses at the output bushing/bearing, and pinion bearing.

Direct drive (1-1) is always more efficient because it suffers no losses through friction at the gear face on either a manual or auto trans.
I also believe lower numerical ring and pinion gears suffer less loss also.
So a direct drive trans with a highway gear would be more efficient, not to speak of driveshaft speeds.
Slower driveline speeds would also introduce lower frictional losses at the output bushing/bearing, and pinion bearing.

In what way do you mean more efficient fuel mileage or power loss?

If you want to check out my T56 installation in my '72, I live in Darboy right off of CE

Drive a car with an M22 for a few days, then drive a car with a 5 speed for 1 day, you WILL prefer the 5 speed. M22 has that "zing" when you say it but the 5 speed will make you happy every time you drive it, no matter where you go.
Ron

I drive a car with an M22 almost every day and I love it. But I guess im younger and not as picky as you old fellars. :D :p

I drive a car with an M22 almost every day and I love it. But I guess im younger and not as picky as you old fellars. :D :pBut you havent driven the same car with a 5 speed, have you? To make an m22 a good driver in town requires lower rear gears to get moving better, but that rules out much highway driving at any kind of speed if you want the engine to live.
With age comes experience and knowledge!:p

But you havent driven the same car with a 5 speed, have you? To make an m22 a good driver in town requires lower rear gears to get moving better, but that rules out much highway driving at any kind of speed if you want the engine to live.
With age comes experience and knowledge!:p

Get an AutoGear M22W (with the M20 gear ratios)...

Or wait (indefinitely???) for the Muncie "5-speed"...



Personally, I grew tired of the manual after a few years... Not fun in traffic and cruise-nights, harder on parts (more "shock" banging gears), harder to launch on street tires (especially disappointing those few times I took it to the drag strip)... Most automatics can be built to "manual shift" when YOU want them too, and still retain automatic shifting when your done playing, or if someone else wants to drive the car...

Sure, back in the 1960's, automatics sucked, but now IMO, there better than a manual... Sure, you might lose a little power with the automatic, but won't any mild Big Block easily spin the tires at-will... And will you ever truly be happy with the power level anyway??

Honestly, where is the "Fun Factor"? Why do some people think its more fun?

And is there any tangible performance difference?


We love to drive the car, especially to places like Nashville for chevelle-a-bration, which is about 800 miles each way. I have gotten the go ahead to replace the tranny this winter,



"WE"... So, I take it your married? What would your wife prefer? Would she prefer a manual or an automatic, or truly has no preference?

What about "budget"? Would your wife be more inclined to go with an automatic if it was several Thousand $$$ cheaper?

Not saying you should do what the wife wants, but IMO, its a BIG difference in price (200R4 versus Tremec kit), and that money might be better spend on some other aspect of the car (or life in general)...

Just stirring the pot:p


Don't get me wrong, I buy tons of stuff the wife doesn't really know about (but she really doesn't care about the car anyway). BUT, if your wife is supposed to feel like a "partner", then maybe lean her way... I figure my next car I build will be an automatic, so my wife can be comfortable driving (even though she probably won't ever)... But I also use that to justify "my choices" on other aspects... If I go "automatic", then maybe I'll add a Supercharger, etc :D

If you want to check out my T56 installation in my '72, I live in Darboy right off of CE

I just may take you up on that in the future. I absolutely do appreciate the offer. I am pretty darn close to you then, as I am about 2 miles from CE in Kaukauna. What road are you on? I bet I have seen your car around.

Jeff

In what way do you mean more efficient fuel mileage or power loss?

I would be interested in knowing this as well, which way are you talking about effiecincy, power or mileage?

Jeff

I just may take you up on that in the future. I absolutely do appreciate the offer. I am pretty darn close to you then, as I am about 2 miles from CE in Kaukauna. What road are you on? I bet I have seen your car around.

Jeff

I live on the corner of N and Emons about a 1/4 mile off CE

Its a dark red '72 with light silver stripes that is always in the garage because Im at school (Platteville), my parents are nice to let my store it there. If you want to look at it let me know and we could arrange an afternoon some weekend when I am home.

I would be interested in knowing this as well, which way are you talking about effiecincy, power or mileage?

D) All of the above. (Not sure if it would be a measurable/noticeable difference though.)

A spur gear drivetrain is the most efficient with a 1:1 ratio because there is less "sliding" of the gear teeth faces under this situation. This means there is less frictional losses with a direct drive gear set than there would be for an underdrive OR overdrive gear set. So a 1:1 top gear is more mechanically efficient than an overdrive. Added benefit is that you end up running less rear gear under this situation typically, so your rear gear efficiency also increases (3.08 rear tends to be more efficient than a 4.10 rear). So in the end, you "should" end up with less frictional drivetrain losses resulting in more power being delivered to the wheels and better fuel economy.

The down-side ends up being that the "deep" 1st gear used to make up for the 1:1 top gear either has low torque limits due to shaft spacing or you end up spacing the shafts further apart and drive bigger gears. The bigger gears then have higher friction when churning about in the trans fuid (higher tooth speed, more gear). You also end up putting more torque through the driveshaft with the higher trans gears, which puts more force through the rear gears and increases the losses in the rear. In the end, I doubt you'd notice a big difference either way (if there was, all the OEM's would have direct drive manuals, right?).

Back to the OP's question though, I'd vote TKO500/TKO600. Every time I double clutch downshift into 2nd and power out of a turn, I wonder how pwople can drive automatics every day :)

I live on the corner of N and Emons about a 1/4 mile off CE

Its a dark red '72 with light silver stripes that is always in the garage because Im at school (Platteville), my parents are nice to let my store it there. If you want to look at it let me know and we could arrange an afternoon some weekend when I am home.

Absolutely, whenever you get around here I would love to see your car and especially the tranny.

I know right where you live, and you are close to me, I'm not far from HH and buchanan rd.

Thanks,

Jeff

I'm one of those "old folks" with an automatic (Bowtie TH700/454 combo in a 70 Elky).

Not only does it shift quick as lightning (something you'll have to work at matching with a manual) but with the overdrive and lockup converter, gets just as good MPG as an overdrive manual and a whole lot better than a Muncie 4 speed. Another advantage is it's 20% lower 1st gear (if your setup needs the added help to get rolling).

I have to concede the around town fun-factor (push in the clutch and rev it up for a little attention) adn the "choose any launch RPM you want" of the manual, but the highway comfort and fuel efficiency of my TH700 more than makes up for it in my mind.

I have to concede the around town fun-factor (push in the clutch and rev it up for a little attention) adn the "choose any launch RPM you want" of the manual, but the highway comfort and fuel efficiency of my TH700 more than makes up for it in my mind.

Honestly the highway comfort and fuel efficiency are two of the things I worry about least with putting in a TKO600. The 600 has a .64 OD as compared to the 700's .70 OD, so fuel efficiency in regards to ratio would actualy be better. Highway driving is easy with a 5 speed, put it in gear and go, around town is where my biggest concerns lie. I have driven a ton of manuals as daily drivers, but they have been newer vehicles. As long as the TKO600 drives even somewhat like those, then I will enjoy the heck out of it. I just really don't want the stiff mechanical clutch of the old days for around town.
On the other hand, the around town fun factor is what I am looking forward too. That and not having to have a 3500 rpm stall convertor anymore.

Jeff

Honestly the highway comfort and fuel efficiency are two of the things I worry about least with putting in a TKO600. The 600 has a .64 OD as compared to the 700's .70 OD, so fuel efficiency in regards to ratio would actualy be better. Highway driving is easy with a 5 speed, put it in gear and go, around town is where my biggest concerns lie. I have driven a ton of manuals as daily drivers, but they have been newer vehicles. As long as the TKO600 drives even somewhat like those, then I will enjoy the heck out of it. I just really don't want the stiff mechanical clutch of the old days for around town.
On the other hand, the around town fun factor is what I am looking forward too. That and not having to have a 3500 rpm stall convertor anymore.

Jeff My daily driver for the past 12 years and 250,000 miles has been a 95 Z28 6 speed that has a hydraulic clutch set up, there is very little difference in the clutch pedal feel between the Z28 and the Tremec and Centerforce in my Chevelle. The big difference between the two cars are the shifters, The Z28 has a very short handled Hurst, the handle on the Chevelle is much longer because you sit a lot higher in the Chevelle.
Ron

My daily driver for the past 12 years and 250,000 miles has been a 95 Z28 6 speed that has a hydraulic clutch set up, there is very little difference in the clutch pedal feel between the Z28 and the Tremec and Centerforce in my Chevelle.
Ron

Well that what exactly what I was waiting to hear. The decision has been made, TKO600 will be going in this winter. Like I said, I enjoy driving the newer manuals, it's just those stiff old M22's and the like that get really old to drive during cruises and such.

Thank you to everyone for your input, and feel free to keep it coming.

Jeff

Super-T-10 4 speed with a Gear Vendors OD. Frictional losses gone with the 1 to 1, plus the gear splitting and Overdrive. Nobody mentioned it, so I figured I would.

But you havent driven the same car with a 5 speed, have you? To make an m22 a good driver in town requires lower rear gears to get moving better, but that rules out much highway driving at any kind of speed if you want the engine to live.
With age comes experience and knowledge!:p

Ahh ha but you are wrong my old friend. The cars got 3.31's out back and turns about 4k at 80 MPH. The engine that is in the car has lasted almost 30 years. It was put in the car in 1978. So take that. :p :D

Ahh ha but you are wrong my old friend. The cars got 3.31's out back and turns about 4k at 80 MPH. The engine that is in the car has lasted almost 30 years. It was put in the car in 1978. So take that. :p :DI also have 3.31 gears, at 80 MPH the tach is right at 2000rpms, and my 3.27 1st gear will smoke your 2.20 1st gear out of the hole.
Take that my young friend:p Time to move into the new century.

I also have 3.31 gears, at 80 MPH the tach is right at 2000rpms, and my 3.27 1st gear will smoke your 2.20 1st gear out of the hole.
Take that my young friend:p Time to move into the new century.

But I don't wanna. :( :p

I guess I will just continue living with my loud obnoxious M-22 gears, and mechanical clutch set up. :sad: :D

I guess you need to do this for a while before you realize the benefits of the overdrive transmissions. I've been driving stick shift cars for 35 years, I love 4 speeds too, but after driving my 95 Z28 6 speed for the past 12 years I finally realized its time to change.
Some day Grasshopper.
Be cool
Ron
BTW, the 5 speed has that mechanical clutch set up too.