Gary:

I don't read a lot of the car mags, but picked up CCraft for latest plane ride. On the back cover is a hard-hitting ad for the 572/720.

THANKS!!! to you and whomever else is on your team and your management for staying the course and bringing solid definition to the terms "crate motor", "crate engine". The 350, 454, 502, and now 572 make anything possible now. And those possibilities come with the assurance of hundreds of man-years of R&D, mfg, and quality/predictability process engineering behind them. The fact that there are more ZZ502's out there than ALL the other supposed BB "crate engines" combined speaks volumes about the forthcoming success for the 572 platform.

This is a huge benefit to the performance industry. It draws a very clear line between crate and custom. I hope the small/expert independent machine/engine shops view this as positive. If I want 6-700 reliable BB HP, I can just order up from GMPP. If I want to sqeeze every last pony out of a platform and do it in the most efficient and reliable way, I'll start with a blank sheet of paper on the desk of Mike @ Lewis or the guys RM or G&G.

The crate motor business has been so messy over the past several years - everyone with line card and access to a machine shop put together a catalog of offerings and the words "quality" and "reliability" have become meaningless. I was reading an article on Mark Reuss (GM Hi Perf Exec?) where he categorically went down the list of all the expertise and years of quality/reliability/predictability processes GM has to draw from. When you matrix those processes, there is NO way any other company can produce quantity and quality in a 572 or 502 package. I could care less about a 650hp 454sbc! If I want something like that, I'll be picking up the phone and calling Mike L or Bill K or Joe G and let them tell me what custom build will work best for my target HP/torque requirement.

Excellent job of setting the bar high and inviting the competition into the middle of the killing field. They have no choice but to compete heads up now. No flanking possible - all the clever gimmicks have been washed out. Just look at all the free motors these guys are giving out to the mags. I imagine GMPP has some target placements for marketing promos, but I don't think GMPP will ship a motor to whomever wants to write about it just to get their name mentioned once or twice.

It will take a few years, but the crate motor market will be dominated by the guys that should dominate it - like GMPP. This will create a much healthier market for the true independent performance experts. The guys in the middle that had nothing but a name, an assembly line, and a 2-page business plan will be gone.....

Mike

I gotta disagree both of the 572's are way over priced, and under powered. 720 hp from a 12.5 to 1 572, is pitiful. I know they actually make more power than that, but GM rates them at 720 so that is their fault. The list of parts on these motors is less than stellar, stock GM / Edelbrock heads, on a 572! Take a look at the Scott Schafiroff 540's, 690 hp on pump gas (10 to 1) Dart heads, Dart intake, and they cost 3 grand less than the GM's. Sorry but GM blew it on these motors. My last 454 made 620 hp on pump gas, same as the 572,620 hp model.

Just out of curiosity, who puts together the GMPP crate engines? I heard that it was a number of shops that are actually independent businesses under contract. If that's the case, who does the quality control and do you get a dyno sheet with each individual engine like Shafiroff and others provide, etc. I also like the parts on the 540 motor better than the 572 and also the price difference. One other item is resale - GMPP crate engines seem to help you sell your vehicle easier. Just my thoughts, but really interested in who actually assembles these GM crates.

But I put Shaf back in the custom/expert category once this crate engine market settles out. It won't happen overnite. And clearly, Dart is the #1 choice for serious custom builds. The price is what will move people to a custom build. You can get a brand new motor - your spec - for less than a 572. But the GM logo is going to draw the crate market to the stake they have planted in the ground - not the other way. We can have dyno arguments all day long. I have two examples of "other" crates that made 15% less than claimed HP. One was supposed to 565 - was even written on the "dyno sheet". Dyno'd it and it made 482.

I'm not too sure about the independent assembly. I find that hard to believe given the sheer number of heavily automated manufacturing capabilities GM has. They may send the long blocks somewhere for final assembly but I find even that hard to believe. Anyway, I'm stickin' to my guns. I'm not a GM rep or have any affiliation with any performance trade. I'm just a fan of solid execution in the market.

Originally posted by mikehartwell:
I'm just a fan of solid execution in the market. ..same here..I agree as well.
572 is a nice piece

The have a warrantee like the other GM crate motors?

I heard Mercruiser builds the motors. But I can't say if it is true or not, just what i heard through the grapevine.

IIRC, think I saw it on Hi$$HPTV. GM has a small assembly line just for these engines. I'm sure they do others too.

Who actually produces the internal parts of the GMPP crate engines? I have an unproven suspicion that the crank at least is a Communist Chinese forging.

What's the point of advertising "Genuine GM" if GM is just sourcing from the same offshore slave/prison/child forced labor foundries as everyone else?

Man, would I LOVE to be told the GM Crate engines are 100% Made in USA.

The same is true for the Merlin 540. Go to all the trouble to cast their own block, then source the rotating assembly from offshore? Please say it ain't so!

Mercruiser would make sense. They had a pretty nice operation in Oklahoma (I think it was Merc?) - that's the only one I know about. I installed several robots and an nc control when they started automating in the early 80's.

On warranties, I think GM's non-race crates are 12/12 parts only, which is realistic. Try using one of those third party warranties and you'll likely get a lesson in responsibility-avoidance. At least with GM you can take a part to a local dealer and say, "Hey, look, this is broken" (or bad, or wrong, or whatever) and it will probably get replaced. Unless you live right next door to the other crate builders, you'll likely get nothing from a warranty no matter how much proof you provide. They always have the option to shift blame to you. Then, you have to spend even more of your money to force compliance. Even if you do get through all the loopholes they have, you'll find an empty storefront - no money, no assets, nada - just a place that prints cards with the word "Warranty" on them. This is exactly why I look for more of the crate business to shift back where it belongs - good independent shops with high integrity. Kinda reminds me of the first bike I bought from Ron Simms years ago. Everyone in the custom hog world had created this warranty frenzy. I asked Ron about his warranty and he said, "Hmmmm, well, it's got my name on it. If that's not good enough, don't buy the bike. If it breaks, I'll fix it." I did, it did and he did.

As for "race" crates - the 572/720 falls into that category - I don't think anyone provides a warranty.

Mike,

Just out of noseiness(Sp?), how did you come out money-wise with your hassle??

pdq67

PS., and I do figure I can make a homemade 571" standard deck block motor using an aftermarket block cheaper.. But again, it won't be a race motor either, but rather a great big "tow-truck", street motor like I like..

I gotta disagree both of the 572's are way over priced, and under powered. 720 hp from a 12.5 to 1 572, is pitiful. Totally agree....especially on the waaaaay overpriced part.

Mike, thanks for the kind words. To the rest of you, God bless America and our freedom to express our opinions.Fortunately for all of us, we can disagree and still come together to enjoy our hot rods.

My opinion is this. The 572's represent great value to a customer whose needs align with what the 572's offer. There will always be a need and a place for custom engines too.

We are currently building 5 to 6 572's a day and can't meet the demand for them, so some people must agree with Mike. All 572's are hand built, FYI.

Have you guys seen the 572 video on our website? And what did you think of it? goodwrench.com is where you'll find it.

Thanks, you guys are great.

Gary

I live here in Stillwater, Ok where Mercury is...they do not assemble the 572's. I also have read a independant company builds the special motors for GM, which is fine by me...I think it was in a car mag, and said you cannot buy direct from them. <understandable>
Mercury's BBC's and SBC's come from GM, and marine parts are swapped on. The 377, is a 350 torn down with a new crank./rods and pistons.
But the 454's and 502's are all new GM crate engines shipped in, and changed.

Went to the track last night with a buddy that has a 572 GM shortblock....made two passes, and the car couldn't get traction to save it's life...28x12.50 ET Street as well...(ended up throwing the belt and had no replacement :( )
He previoulsy had a build 468 and he said this 572 is night and day diffrence over it...almost scary.
While the price is too high for my blood, I understand him wanting something from GM, not an over the net build.
Some companies have grown with a great reputation...and nowdays how easy it is to share information via the net and hit hundred, if not thousands of people in one click, you have to be even more on your toes running a business.
(we all have to admit we have shared information/ideas/horror stories we have even read here) smile.gif

But to wanted to chime in on the Mercury thing, and since I have now witnessed first hand a 572 perform, even with mild heads....they are a great combo...and scary. :D

So, Gary: Where do the internal parts come from?

Some GMPP crate engines are built in GM Powertrain assembly plants, some (lower volume) engines are assembled by companies under contract to GM. The 572's are assembled at a company which is a joint venture company whose primary business is the assembly of GMPP crate engines. We are very integrated with this company and control build and quality processes.

Regarding, where do internal parts come from, it's a mixed bag. Some are manufactured entirely by GM, some are manufactured by others to our specifications. Some (i.e. thermostat housing gaskets) are commodity products which are purchased from companies like Fel Pro or Dana.
The 572 crankshaft is a USA forging, machined in the USA...sorry no offshore cranks in any GMPP crate engine. Metalurgy is a concern with the off shore stuff.The 572 crank is our design. There are very few crank forging facilities in the USA today, GM sells crank forgings to crank companies who machine them and sell them as high-end race cranks...bet you didn't know that.

Have a great day.
Gary

GM sells crank forgings to crank companies who machine them and sell them as high-end race cranks...bet you didn't know that.

Yup, Crower is one

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
Take a look at the Scott Schafiroff 540's, 690 hp on pump gas (10 to 1) Dart heads, Dart intake, and they cost 3 grand less than the GM's. Sorry but GM blew it on these motors. My last 454 made 620 hp on pump gas, same as the 572,620 hp model. Ok, but has Shafiroff dyno tested his combinations at WOT for 24+ hours? Do his engines come with the same warranty? Are his engines as streetable as the 572? Streetability and naturally aspirated horsepower ho hand in hand.

Lets see....$9000 shafiroff.....$12000 GM.....for $3000 more I go with the GM motor.

my $.02

As far as the video at Gmgoodwrench.com, It ROCKS! The scene where the guy turns the lights out and the motor is tachin' like 4200rpm or something is sweet. I wish I could sleep in that room at while they're testing it smile.gif

So, did GM really test that motor for a whole night at those RPM's?? If so, seems like a good motor for a flat bottom boat. At least GM can make good motors graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Gary,

Please don't take me the wrong way b/c I am glad guy's like, want AND can afford the GM Crate Motors! I can't so I do the next best thing and build my own outta whatever parts that I think will work for me, That's all...

The 572 is a great motor anyways.....

Btw, I have been in several forging shops so just where are the cranks forged?? I bet I've been in the shop when I was in refractory installation years ago for the old APGreen Firebrick Company??

pdq67

Texas Mike: Both motors are solid rollers so the reliability will be similar with both. I am pretty sure the Shaffiroff motor comes with a warrantee. When you look at the parts side by side they are equal quality level, except the heads and intake. The Darts on the Shaffiroff motor are superior to the GM / Edelbrocks. I am not saying the GN 572 is a bad motor, just under powered and too expensive for what it is. It is aimed at people who do not build their own motors and want the "572" that is cool, just not for me.

Well, aren't Shaffiroff engines also built for people that don't build their own engines and want the "Shaffiroff" wow factor or 540 wow factor?

Even if Shaffiroff does give you a warantee, I doubt you could drive a few miles to your local Shaffiroff dealer and have them look at your engine. On the other hand, there's two GM dealers local to me that sell GMPP crates.

pdq: Finally collected close to what the engine cost. The FTC investigation is "ongoing". The "Warranty" was misrepresented because of the claim that it was backed by a bona fide insurance policy. Furthermore, the warranty company was not even registered to use the word "insurance" in their business, let alone sell or administer any type of insurance policy, even though the warranty card clearly made numerous references to insurance - heck, the guy even told me the policy was underwritten by Lloyd's (sent that little tape recording to the FTC).

Just to understand for myself, I called three major insurance companies and said, "Hey, I want to start a business building high perf engines and I want to back my warranties by an insurance policy." Two came back and said forget it - too much trouble for the money. One came back and said the premium for an insurance policy to cover each engine would equal the cost to build the engine plus 24% for admin and profit. So, if I build the engine for $6K, the policy to cover the warranty costs me an additional $7500. Whoa, nobody's gonna pay that. Hey, maybe I can find some storefront and pay them a few hundred per engine to act as the "warranty provider" and let them deal with it. How many $4-8K repair jobs we think those guys will be paying for? Survey says - Bing-bing-bing - You Win - ZIP is the correct answer (followed by none, nada, never, and shah right). At $300 per engine, the warranty company's job is simple - deflect responsibility and avoid payment. One claim wipes out a whole month of revenue.

That high priced 572 is looking better all the time. Part of the reason for the higher price is a whole buncha years of R&D and process engineering that have gone into creating these new platforms. All the other crate providers combined couldn't match a tenth of GM's R&D committment. I'm not saying GM doesn't have their flaws, but who invests in R&D like they do (save for Ford, Chrysler, et al)?

Slowpoke made the point in far less words :D

GM spent a ton of time in R&D, these engines were tested for years before being released to the public. They are a really nice package. Gary and all the people at GMPP did a great job on these.

What is the max bore size for the block GM uses for the 572?

No one knows? Could it be that you'd pay 15K for an engine that can't be bored even once? I'm just guessing, I don't know.

That dragster in the video hitting 163 at 720 HP seems pretty accurate. I've seen a 2300lb Vette hit 144 mph with a dyno'd 711 HP.

I just read in my August, 2004 copy of CHP mag., (page 23), where a place called "Performance Assembly Solutions" is contracted by GM to build a bunch of their crate motors for GM's Service Parts Operations and Performance Parts..

The article say's DO NOT contact them directly b/c THEY CAN NOT SELL to the general PUBLIC, but only supply crate motors to GM..

pdq67

I'm sorry Mike, I just went back and reread what you said about the insurance policy crap!!

Glad it's all working out for you..

A side note here...

Has anybody picked up on the fact that Debeers Diamonds and good old M-B/C have just said F--- Uncle Sam b/c they have declared that they aren't subject to our Countries Laws!!

Debeers was getting nailed for monopolistic diamond marketing practices!!!

And M-B/C for not owning up that their over the road Diesel big truck engines had Smog test defeat programs built into them. That and the present balljoint problem with the Dakota and Durango P/U's!!

The EPA hung it on five out of the seven big truck motor makers b/c of this crap!! Volvo was the other one that did what M-B/C did and said they weren't playing either with our Government's EPA settlement agreement...

I think it's time to boycot M-B/C, Debeers and Volvo....

pdq67

Originally posted by pdq67:


I think it's time to boycot M-B/C, I've been doing that for years :D

Maybe they are 100% US made, which is why they're a 20-30% premium over an analogous crate. You wanna buy 100% US you have to pay the premiums, big premium.