I just had my engine rebuilt and dyno'ed in June and now I have a big issue.

I've got about 300 miles on the engine now and last saturday I got on the expressway on my way to back to the bricks in Flint, and took it up to about 3K and about 2 miles I heard the lifters tapping and looked at the oil pressure and the needle was flickering at 40lbs and then it dropped to almost zero. I shut the car off and coasted and then looked at everything to make sure oil was not leaking and that I had oil....I did.

I then started it again and it went right to 60lbs and was steady, I started to drive it again and it did the same thing and I put in the clutch and let it idle and it went back up to 60lbs and quiet top end. It did this all the way to Flint (20 miles). I talked to the engine builder at the show (he had a booth there) and he came over and listen to it and said the lifters sounded a little loose and need to be adjusted. He told me to take it home and change the oil to 20w-50w and bring it in to his shop.

Well I changed the oil and filter today and the oil looked real clean and put the oil filter in a ziplock to take to them to look at. I drove the car about a 1/2 mile and it started doing it again.

My question is, what do you guys think it is? Also, do you think it is safe to drive to the engine shop (30 miles, I'll stay off e-way)?

This car must real real hate me as I have had more trouble with this engine and that is why I had it professial done.

Thanks for input.

Ric

Ric.....From what you are describing I wouldn't recommend driving it 30 miles. Almost sounds like a pick up issue as is being described here in another current thread. Hopefully nothing to serious. If you had the complete engine assembled by the machine shop....I would temporarily foot the towing bill until it was disassembled for further inspection. At that time things will become a whole lot clearer. Best Luck and hopefully its something simple.

If it is the oil pick up, should I expect them to pull the motor to fix it? I'm the one that installed the motor. I hate to get it out there and they tell me I have to pull the motor and then I have to get it home.

Thanks.

I agree with Bill.Air introduced into the oil pump..= cavitation.Flatbed the car and work out the cost later with the builder if reqd.

Ric you need to discuss things with the builder tomorrow. This could get touchy as I have read about pick up tubes screens actually having the welds let loose. If thats the case it would be more of a defective part thing.....lord knows if the pump manufacture would assume any liability. I cannot imagine any builder saying to drive something that the oil pressure has bounced from 40 to zero multiple times. I would offer to pick him up and drive him to my house and let them troubleshoot at your home. If the pick up tube fell out of the pump I would assume he would accept liability if he installed it. A lot of factors to be considered but personally... driving it wouldn't be one of them. It could be something totally different causing the issues....as that is only a guess. I hope you and the builder have a stand up relationship and can work it all out.....Its not gonna be fun either way. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have everyone present if the pan comes off......Good Luck hopefully you'll be enjoying that new engine again shortly.

Rick,
I guess you have already filled it back up with 20w50 ? If so, do you have a clean container you can drain the oil into ? Drain the oil back out and get a metal coat hanger and fish around in the oil pan. If the pickup fell off, you should be able to feel it loose in the pan.

Did you tell the builder about the oil pressure dropping ? I am with Bill, I cannot imagine telling you to drive it with no, or low oil pressure. Lifters that are out of adjustment dont get noisy and then quiet again, they are noisy all the time.

As far as pulling the engine back out to fix it, most performance engines do not include any type of labor in thier warranty :( Also, a lot of good engine builders do not have any type of facility to pull an engine anyway. If it needs to come out, you probably better figure on doing it yourself. Bills idea of offering to give him a ride to look at it sounds like a good idea. I have actually sent one of my guys to look at engines several times. I would rather do that than have it really damaged by driving it :(

If it is the oil pick up, should I expect them to pull the motor to fix it? I'm the one that installed the motor. I hate to get it out there and they tell me I have to pull the motor and then I have to get it home.

Thanks.

Depends.Did the builder install the pump and pickup and then seal the bottom end with the pan?Did you on install..drop the engine on the floor and dent the pan enough to alter the pickup to pan clearance?Before the engine is removed..I suggest all partys view the oil pan for any external damage..prior to removal and dissassembly.

Depends.Did the builder install the pump and pickup and then seal the bottom end with the pan?Did you on install..drop the engine on the floor and dent the pan enough to alter the pickup to pan clearance?Before the engine is removed..I suggest all partys view the oil pan for any external damage..prior to removal and dissassembly.

The builder installed the pump, oil pan and seal the bottom end then broke it in and dynoed it. The pan is in perfect condition and was not dropped or anything like that.

Ric BillK has hit the nail on the head.....He has forgotten more about engines than I will ever know. I was hoping he might drop in on this one as He is a stand up engine builder. Working in a professional manner with the builder will yield the best results. Unfortunately your conversations with him have changed from casual back to business.

An engine slightly out of balance is more likely to shake the pickup tube out of the oil pump as well. A little tack weld is good insurance. BillK is the man.

If its not the oil pickup falling off i bet part of the problem could possibly be an issue with an older gen bbc from 1965-66 thats requires the sloted rear cam journal & brearing for proper lifter oiling which was over looked?

But i would not drive it much of any distance or run it much at all with the intermittant oil pressure /lifter tapping problems your having.

Even if this is truely part of the your problem it doesnt explain the oil psi drop to zero at times which should not happen even if a groved rear cam journal & bearing were not used in the 65-66 gen bbc.

Scott

If its not the oil pickup falling off i bet part of the problem could possibly be an issue with an older gen bbc from 1965-66 thats requires the sloted rear cam journal & brearing for proper lifter oiling which was over looked?

But i would not drive it much of any distance or run it much at all with the intermittant oil pressure /lifter tapping problems your having.

Even if this is truely part of the your problem it doesnt explain the oil psi drop to zero at times which should not happen even if a groved rear cam journal & bearing were not used in the 65-66 gen bbc.

Scott


Scott,

Its a stock 1969, so I guess the groved rear cam is not the issue. I hope.

Thanks for the input.

Well it's definately looking like you will need to pull the motor & then the pan to see if the oil pickup came off ,if the relief valve in oil pump is flakey .

I the oil pickup did not come off i would replace the oil pump ,check the main/rod bearings,cam/lifters,etc to ensure things are ok/not damaged before re-installing motor.

Scott

I would pull it out and bring it to him. If he needs to hear it first He can put it on the dyno to try to experience the problem. It`s got to come out anyway you look at it.

Well I took Bill's advice and drained the oil and got a piece of wire into the oil drain hole and Guess what? I found the pickup tube on the bottom of the pan. I call the engine builder and he said pull it and bring it back in with the old oil filter so that they can cut it apart to see if anything else is going on.

He said in the 20 years of building motors he has never seen one come off that pressed in hard. I told him now he has and I'm did not want to be the first. He does not weld them in unless they are a loose fit.

On a good note he will turn the motor around in 24 hours so I can get it back in. After about 4 hours and some beers it is ready to come out tomorrow after I built my new cherry picker and to the shop it goes.

Any advise let me know.

Thanks
Ric

Do you need any help Ric? Call me if you do.

you could have a return issue with the oil. At higher RPM you pump more oil to the top of the engine. if it does not get back to the pan you will run low and drop oil pressure. The when you press clutch and idle, your oil returns to the pan and your oil pressure gos up. you go back to run and intime you will run out of oil again.

Just a thought, i have seen it happen.

Do you need any help Ric? Call me if you do.

Tony,

Thanks for the offer, all I got to do in the morning is disconnect fuel and hoses and remove the hood and lift straight into the truck bed and on my way to the shop. I'm getting pretty good at this, I know all the bolt sizes and sequence to get that beast out.

Again, thanks for the offer, I will make it to Frankenmuth.

Ric,
I would ask him to tack weld it if nothing else. We have been TIG welding every pickup on engines we build at the shop. Cheap, easy insurance.

He does have a point in that there are a bazillion cars running around with pressed in pickups, but I have a feeling that the factory has a better, more precise way of doing it than most of us. I dont feel comfortable just banging them in, and I do have the correct Melling tools for the job.

Glad it was something simple, hope maybe he learned a lesson and wont recommend others to drive 30 miles with a problem that could have cost him a bunch of money to fix.

Ric,
Sounds like all good advice already given but thought I would chime in. I have seen several pick-up tubes that have come loose from the pumps. (Almost always aftermarket pumps) I will never assemble an engine without the pick-up either brazed or bolted to the pump. I have had good luck with Summit brand pumps. The are inexpensive and come with the pick-up welded. If you have any gear above 3:55 or so stay away from the High volume, especially with a stock pan. Too many RPM's for any distance, ( freeway driving ) can run you out of oil before it gets back down to the pan. Not an issue with with hydraulic cams and mild gear but can be a big issue if you ever go to a steeper gear with a solid cam. Hope everything works out for you. Make sure your builder pulls the bearing caps off the forward two holes to check for damage. #1 & #2 rod. They will show the most wear if the engine started to starve of oil... Good luck

you can also buy a pump which has the pickup welded on already. On occasion, even when brazed, a pickup can still fall off. I suggest a welded pick up as they dont require the heat that brazing doe's. Good luck, you are one of many who have experienced this issue.

Ric,
If you have any gear above 3:55 or so stay away from the High volume, especially with a stock pan. Too many RPM's for any distance, ( freeway driving ) can run you out of oil before it gets back down to the pan. Not an issue with with hydraulic cams and mild gear but can be a big issue if you ever go to a steeper gear with a solid cam. Hope everything works out for you. l... Good luck
=
Roger,
Since Ric has gotten to the bottom of his problems & knows what the issue is,,

I have a couple of slight disagreements with your opinions on HV pumps. :)
First,, you need to explain to me how a hi volume pump pumps more oil through the same size orifice ( leak) if the standard volume pump is on the bypass the majority of the time anyway??
The only time a high volume pump will show a difference in oil delivery is at lower RPM's before you are on the bypass.

My thoughts,,
While I rarely use hi volume pumps,,,
A hi volume pump will not empty the oil pan.
This is one of those internet & or magazine myths that just seem to persist even with all the excellent information to the contrary
It seems if something is repeated enough it becomes a truth :sad:

Here is an excerpt from an older post of mine, from here:
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=57174#57174


Easier to copy & past than type it again ;)
While I am not normally a fan of hi volume pumps,,,
Let's get rid of this stupid myth of hi volume pumps "pumping the oil out of the pan" in a Chevrolet engine.
It ain't gonna happen, this is just plain insane

Before posting this stop & consider where the oil goes & what limits it.
You cannot put more oil through an orifice than the orifice will allow regardless of how much volume you start with unless you do not have enough but that's another issue.
An orifice is "self limiting" as are bearing clearances

With a hi volume pump all you do is return more oil through the bypass which can cause it's own issues,,,
Now, assuming you are putting more oil through the system due to bearing clearances you can drive a truck through,,,
Where is most of it going?

It is not up in the heads, it goes back to the sump

Thanks for all advice and support guys. I did take the motor to the builder on Friday and stayed with him while he torn it down and checked it and put it back together. There was no damage other than his pride.

no for the interesting trip home, as I got into the town I live in (Fenton Mich) the tornado sirens were going and I was stopped by the local police and was told to take cover now as it was spotted, I left the truck and took cover in the bank and 20 mins later came out to total distruction, buildings, ripped open, trees down. The High school which is about a 1/8 mile from my house was hit and tore the roof off. If the cop would not have had the stopped me and advised me to take cover I would have drove right into it. Thank god no one was hurt and with all the damage it is surprising. The govenor has declared our little town of 10K a disaster area.

The truck suffered and few scraches from Tree branches but the motor was unscathed, even the blue tarp I had wrapped around was still there, I'm sure glad I had the motor strapped down as no telling what could have happened to it or someone else.

Now to put it in, and cross my fingers.

Ric

I always tac weld the p/u,. I bet your builder does now too.

learned my lesson when i was 17 and had one come out. Took 7 months of dealing with what your are now to figure it out.

=
Roger,
Since Ric has gotten to the bottom of his problems & knows what the issue is,,

I have a couple of slight disagreements with your opinions on HV pumps. :)
First,, you need to explain to me how a hi volume pump pumps more oil through the same size orifice ( leak) if the standard volume pump is on the bypass the majority of the time anyway??
The only time a high volume pump will show a difference in oil delivery is at lower RPM's before you are on the bypass.

My thoughts,,
While I rarely use hi volume pumps,,,
A hi volume pump will not empty the oil pan.
This is one of those internet & or magazine myths that just seem to persist even with all the excellent information to the contrary
It seems if something is repeated enough it becomes a truth :sad:

Here is an excerpt from an older post of mine, from here:
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=57174#57174


Easier to copy & past than type it again ;)
While I am not normally a fan of hi volume pumps,,,
Let's get rid of this stupid myth of hi volume pumps "pumping the oil out of the pan" in a Chevrolet engine.
It ain't gonna happen, this is just plain insane

Before posting this stop & consider where the oil goes & what limits it.
You cannot put more oil through an orifice than the orifice will allow regardless of how much volume you start with unless you do not have enough but that's another issue.
An orifice is "self limiting" as are bearing clearances

With a hi volume pump all you do is return more oil through the bypass which can cause it's own issues,,,
Now, assuming you are putting more oil through the system due to bearing clearances you can drive a truck through,,,
Where is most of it going?

It is not up in the heads, it goes back to the sump

Mike,
No dissagreement on the reality of how much the High Volume "really" affects the delivery. I like the reference Article quote.:thumbsup: I have always used a "water through the garden hose" or "oil through a funnel" example. Doesn't matter how much of either.. it still exits the same size opening.. Sometimes it's just easier to suggest staying with a standard pump then going to a HV when you really don't need it. I too like using a SV pump when running a wet sump system. I will say that i have seen motors break by starving for oil when turning too many rpm's for too long a distance " freeway driving with 4:88's etc " but that would have happened with a Standard pump as well. :( ( taking into consideration of the oil possibly foaming up and cavitating of course) Just wanted to through Ric my own opinion on it.
Thanks again for the Article. I'm going to save it. That's a much easier explanation then trying to explain the " garden hose theory " on why a SV pump is adequate for most anything on the street. Thanks :thumbsup:

Hey Ric, Glad to hear you, the truck, and the engine survived the Tornado, I have been hearing small bits of info here in Cali on the Tornado in Fenton Mi. Your info gave me a clear idea where the storm hit, I used to live on the south end of town up by back of the cemetary. Hope your house fared well.

Hey Ric, Glad to hear you, the truck, and the engine survived the Tornado, I have been hearing small bits of info here in Cali on the Tornado in Fenton Mi. Your info gave me a clear idea where the storm hit, I used to live on the south end of town up by back of the cemetary. Hope your house fared well.

Thanks yes all is ok, I'm not sure when you moved out, but I'm in the sub right in front of the high school called Hills of Tyrone so your house was just east of me. Downtown got hit hard,Middle school, the park (Gazebo), police station, community center and alot of the houses right behind the police station. I drove thru this morning on the way to work and it still looks like a war zone. But no one was hurt so all is good.

Glad to hear everything is OK.

Check my updated post on my similar situation. My Pick-up had fallen aff also.

I went to that middle school for a short time. My Pops still owns the house that we lived in, it is a rental right now. I hope the mill pond area didn't get too damaged, that is a great area to sit and eat during nice weather.....

I left the area in the mid 1980's and I understand that it has changed quite alot since I was there. The Sub you live in wasn't even there when I was.

I hope all the people there got out unhurt, it is a great little town with good people.

Well I got the motor in and started right up, took it for a ride and seems that the lifters are pretty loud now about 2500 - 3000 rpm but pretty quiet at idle. Any sugestions?