I have about 4000 miles on my engine,its ok to cruise around but its time to get serious about its performance. Heres the combo - 327,bored to a 331. Stock bottom end with flat top pistons,10:1 i was told by the guy who built the shortblock. Summit 1107 cam (almost identical to performer rpm) 234/244, .488,.510. Protopline Pro lightning heads,180/64cc. Performer RPM intake, edelbeock 600 carb,dynomax headers,flowmaster dual exaust,HEI.4 speed, 4:11. Its a dog off the line,wont spin the tires unless i dump the clutch hard graemlins/sad.gif . Has good power when the RPM winds up but soggy down low. Makes a lot lot of noise when i launch but not much else.

Your heads are a little big for a 327, and your cam is way to big. You would have to spin it to the moon to get into your power band.

I'm running a comp 218 / 224 XE262 in my 337 ( .60 over 327 ) and it SCREAMS down low & midrange . All done by 6,000 rpm though :rolleyes: Stoplight to stoplight it's a blast !!! Your cam is probably overkill for the street in a 327 .

Thats what i thought. Im thinking of a XE268.Any other thoughts on this?Thanks.

All is well except gear and carb. Holley or Q-jet works better. Holleys you can fine :D . 650 dp and fine tune squirtters. Trust me a 4.56 will make the car easier to drive around town also because engine runs unloaded because it takes less effort. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

You want him to put a bigger carb and deeper gears on an already mismatched combination?!?! This is a street car..... A 4-speed with 4.56's would be just about unuseable.

You knock 20 degrees off your cam timing with a 10:1 motor and you might have a fuel problem. Please visit Pat Kelly's DCR website and learn how to calculate DCR's.

The Summit cams are typically not too intense, which is why they're cheap.

4.56s would go it, or a cam swap.

http://www.englecams.com/catalog/search_results.php?cam=SOL_FLAT&engine=CHEVY_SB&turbo=N&sort=part_num

The small 1020.

Also, do a search on " "harold's quick and dirty method of degreeing' here in the Performance forum. You might want to check the degreeing of the cam. You'll want it in quite advanced.

MY OPINION, but with a small 327, 4 speed and 4.10 gears, you'll wnat a cam to take it to 6500 RPM. The XE grinds metioned will not.

A small solid camshaft will and should give you enough down low to smoke the tires.

But before you get all into changing things, check your cam timing, the easy way. I don't think you'll ever get alot of punch out of that AFB carb anyway, but you can tune it to be better.

I built that same motor with 461 heads and it was a dog too. The best I could run was a mid 13 second quarter with 3.73 gears and my 4-speed on stock tires. That is just too much cam and too little cubes for that motor. I bet it sounds great when it idles... Mine did..

I went to a 268 and hated the performance. Then I wiped a lobe. I think I'll try the XE line next (xe-268) or a little solid. I'm good to .550 lift, so I might as well use it.

64cc heads and 5cc flat-tops is about 9.8:1 in a 331. I'd say you have way too much cam to expect any low end response. We use a 228°/228°/110° LSA comp cam in our 331" road race motor and it makes peak power about 5900 rpm. With a 2-bbl carb this engine makes 330 rwhp and 340#ft rwt about 4400.

Originally posted by boomhauer:
I have about 4000 miles on my engine,its ok to cruise around but its time to get serious about its performance. Heres the combo - 327,bored to a 331. Stock bottom end with flat top pistons,10:1 i was told by the guy who built the shortblock. Summit 1107 cam (almost identical to performer rpm) 234/244, .488,.510. Protopline Pro lightning heads,180/64cc. Performer RPM intake, edelbeock 600 carb,dynomax headers,flowmaster dual exaust,HEI.4 speed, 4:11. Its a dog off the line,wont spin the tires unless i dump the clutch hard graemlins/sad.gif . Has good power when the RPM winds up but soggy down low. Makes a lot lot of noise when i launch but not much else. Another problem is do you know what piston was used or if the block was decked & by how much?
If it was a standard rebuilder type cast flat top with an undecked block & a standard felpro you are going to be closer to 8.7 than 10.0.
Assuming it was done to zero deck it will be about 9.7

Summit 1107 cam (almost identical to performer rpm) 234/244, .488,.510 A truly awful cam. That's the main thing holding you back. The rest of your combo deserves better.

Try a XE262H, or a XS256S, or something else like that with intake duration in the 215-220° range and some halfway modern ramps with a little steepness to them. You have enough compression that you don't want to go too little, but not enough to use a really big one. I think the solid cam might do better with the gera and 4-speed setup.

Originally posted by boomhauer:
Summit 1107 cam (almost identical to performer rpm) 234/244, .488,.510. It's a dog off the line,wont spin the tires unless i dump the clutch hard graemlins/sad.gif . Has good power when the RPM winds up but soggy down low. Makes a lot lot of noise when i launch but not much else. :rolleyes: Here we go again.

Does anyone see a frequently repeated pattern here :D

Your heads are fine for that engine.
It's the cam for sure.

**Assuming a real compression of about 10:1**
If you had an automatic trans a cam with a 216-218 .050 intake duration would be good.But since you have a 4spd I would go for an intake duration of 224 .050.You will be a happy camper.These are HYD cam spec's.
If you really want that 331 to perform you need it to rev as said above,a solid would be the ticket

I've never used Summit brand cams, but I have to ask: What's wrong with them?

I was told they are made by Crane. I dont think its the matter of the cam is a Summit cam and summit cams are bad,i think its the specs are wrong for this engine. I have a Summit 1103(forget the specs) in my small block 400 and it runs like a raped ape.I was considering degreeing the cam,but whats the point, im pretty sure its all wrong for this engine. I guess i'll go for a 268XE or a 262.456 gearsare not an option,Cam swap is cheaper,plus i dont want to run 456 on the street. Thanks for the input fellas.

Boom, I've never used an Engle cam. But I would certainly give them a call on that small 1020. It seems made to order for your 327.

Also, check this out

http://www.crower.com/sp/gs_cams.shtml

scroll down to the sbc solid cams, check out P/N 09041. Kripes, its on sale and looks PUUURECT, 222 duration, .456 lift 110. Crower isn't typically inexpensive, but if that puppy works in a 10:1 327, allowing pump fuel, you'll have a near ideal setup. Pulls off idle, and revs to the moon if you stay in it. Cost: $60!!

Hey, I'm of the opinion that short stroke motors want to rev, so why not let 'em. GO SOLID! They'll give you 5-10% more power, in an apples-to-apples cam comparo.

I'm fudging the DCR numbers for you, I get 7.1:1 with that 292/302, 114 lsa summit cam. That's anemic unless its 540 cubes.

With the Crower discontinued cam, ASSUMING you put it it with only 2 advance, DCR is 8.1:1. With the Engle, since its on a 112 lsa, and also assuming only 2 advanced its 8.0. The Engle will idle a bit smoother, the Crower will be lumpier.

8:1 is dead on. Premium fuel to be sure.( maybe 89) If Mike ( Wolfplace) is right, it'll be 7.85-ish, which may allow 89 octane. But you'll think you have a new motor. It'll rock!

I'll send you my bill after your first hard run when you're beaming ear-to-ear! ;)

Good luck. And don't think that a solid is high maintenance. It isnt. It may take a number of lash settings before it takes a "set". But after that, you shouldn't have to touch it but once a year. Buy some $30 Crane Kool-Nuts to help. They're a posi-lock to use with stock rockers.

Don't shortchange that nice little motor with some 260XE grind that'll poop out at 5800, in my very humble opinion, of course. Get it spot on. And then GIVE 'ER HELL!

Boy Can I Relate To This Post!!!! but mines backwards, hauls butt for 300' then just gives up. Good Luck Dave

Put a little juice in it!! That will double your torque flow nicely with those heads and wind up really quick.

Regarding the Engle cams, I was recomended the 1022 (EP22) cam for a FI engine I'm building for the '59. If my block checks out OK for a 4" bore, I'll be running that cam with either a 3.48" or 3.75" stroke, 10:1 compression, 1 5/8" headers and a Rochester FI. The local FI guy regularly runs them in 327 FI Corvette engines he builds. FWIW

Thnx Wes. Always feel ackward recommending a grind simply off the numbers. But that grind seems tailor-made for a 10:1 327.

Boom, if they do custom , you might ask about the EP20 lobe on the intake and the EP22 on the exhaust. If not, don;t sweat it.

The $60 Crower looks fine too, but its so small @0.050". Might be too small for 4.10s. 3.31s OK

Looks like that Crower is sold out. Any recommendations on another brand? I was looking through Crane and Compcam catalog,but what spec should i be looking for?Around 222 duration,is that @50? Also confused about solid vx hydraulic,are the spec of each comparable? Im not to swift with cams, sorry. I thought i was set on a XE 262, but it seems the thoughts are it will die before i hit my peak rpm? How bout Lunati? Isn't that Harolds new company?Thanks for the help so far guys.

I'm running a comp 218 / 224 XE262 in my 337 ( .60 over 327 ) and it SCREAMS down low & midrange . All done by 6,000 rpm though graemlins/sad.gif Stoplight to stoplight it's a blast !!!

You could run the 268 XE and add a little more on the topend.

Another option is the Factory 327 / 350 horse cam . Somebody makes it as a " Blueprint " series . 222 / 222 duration @ .50

I'm at work and swamped, so this'll be brief. Add abput 8 to the duration to compare a solid with a hyd, i.e. 222 hyd = 230 solid.

Call Engle and see what they tell you about that solid grind. You'll need new lifter any way you go, so now would be the time to look into solid lifters.

Comp XE262 is too small if you really have 10:1, or even 9.75:1, you'll need to move up to the 268XE, or the XS268S.

Do a search here on solid lifters to fill you in on why they're MUCH better, especially if you have any gear.

I'll check back when I'm not making money for folks and paying my bills!

My friend runs the 200cc ProToplines on his 327 and they are fine. His compression is 10.3:1 with a small dome piston -- running a Comp Magnum 282s his best ET is 12.4 @ 108 mph and that is with a 3500 lb race weight Camaro (4.10 gears and 4000 stall).

Your 180's are also fine, the problem is that your compression is low. It is not 10:1 if you have flat tops -- its more like 9.25:1. That Summit cam has very long advertised duration which is bleeding off a lot of cylinder pressure at low RPMs. The long seat timing combined with low compression is what is killing you down low IMO.

If I were you I would look at the Comp Magnum 270s. 224* @ .050 (adv duration probably measures out closer to 262-264 at the valve) will help your low end a LOT and the engine will still rev to 6,000. You don't really need a dual pattern cam IMO - the 180 ProToplines have a very good exhaust port.

Just my opinion.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 427L88:
[QB]

Comp XE262 is too small if you really have 10:1, or even 9.75:1, you'll need to move up to the 268XE, or the XS268S.

ok,lets assume i have lower than 10:1,because im not really sure,then would the xe262 be good, or even the 270 magnum? Crane makes the Blueprint cam that someone mentioned. Its the stock cam for the 350hp 327,heres the specs
Specifications:
* Duration at .050 in. cam lift: 222 intake/222 exhaust
* Gross valve lift: .447 in. intake/.447 in. exhaust
* Lobe separation: 114 degrees
* Basic rpm range: 2,200 to 5,200
* Replacement for factory 350 HP 327 camshaft
i just dont like the RPM range on it, 5200?

Ok, let me run some numbers fot you, dynamic compression numbers, and lets assume that Mike (Wolfplace) is right, he is an experienced engine builder. So his comments are worth 10X mine..anyway...

I dont have the time to describe dynamic compression in detail here, please run some searches on it....it basically tells you how much cranking compression the engine has, given its static compression and the cams timing ( especially the closing of the intake valve on the compresison stroke...).

To start, what you have now...we start with a 331 ci Chevy, with pistons .020" down in the hole for a 9.8:1 compression ratio, adding the Summit cam...292/302 advertised 114 lsa, 110 ICL... dynamic is 6.65:1. Stone-ville, right!? So the guys ID your problem spot on.

Lets try the XE262 ( I dont like the XE series myself, I'd never use one, bad harmonics, BUT many here do with excellent results..) dynamic compression is 7.74:1. OK, now you're talking some grunt, for sure... Comp states 1300 to 5600. Ok, raise that 10% for a 331 vs a 350, and you get approx 1600-6000 rpm. so far so good, BUT

With 4.10s and a decent-sized tire you'll be crossing the end of the 1/4 at around 6300, so you'll be straining that cam ( NOT the 327!), and XE cams dont top out all that well. But if you look at the XE262 SOLID cam, its range is given as 5800, and again, lets move that up some for a 331 and say 6100.

Now you see why I've been talking solid and not hydraulic.

If we move up to the XS268 and give the 327 6500 rpm capability. Here we get a dynamic compression of 7.58 with the Comp and 7.45 with the Engle, and have 6500 rpm capability. the 270S from Comp would also be a good choice giving a 7.54 dynamic.

With 7.5:1 DCR you can probably run this mill on 89.

With your current dynamic, dont waste the money on anything but regular unleaded.

Hope this help, or at least get you thinking along the right lines.

I have run the L-79(350hp) Cam in my .030 over 327 for a few years now, 461 heads with flat tops. 600 Holley. By the seat of the pants, The cam comes on strong at 2800rpm and pulls past 5200, more like 7K.

boomhauer-If you want performance you shouldn't even be thinking about a factory cam.Many years have passed and technology has advanced.Cams designed these days have a better bottom end,more midrange, with the same or better top end.

The 327/350 horse cam was also designed for a "Factory Theoretical" compression of 11:1,wich you clearly do not have.

Originally posted by thrasher:

I would go for an intake duration of 224 .050.You will be a happy camper.These are HYD cam spec's.
If you really want that 331 to perform you need it to rev as said above,a solid would be the ticket That factory cam is a solid and has 222 duration @.050, sounds like what you said would be ideal, no?

double post,sorry

70isfine-From the first look,yes.

But look a little deeper.

The LSA is 114 with the L79 cam.
A newer cam will have around a 110 LSA wich will give the engine snap.

Also the L79 has too much advertised duration,a newer design will have less.

Also in a the L79 has too much advertised duration,a newer design will have less. [/QB]That's just a reflection of how GM specs their cams. They measure seat to seat differently than Comp or Crane or ....

Originally posted by TJC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Also in a the L79 has too much advertised duration,a newer design will have less. That's just a reflection of how GM specs their cams. They measure seat to seat differently than Comp or Crane or .... [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]As an example of how far off GM adv dur specs are:

L88 cam speced at 354º adv, measures at the correct tappet lift point of .018" at 316º.

The 30-30 Duntov lashes at .030" is speced at 346º and measures 304º at the correct .024º tappet lift.

I don't have any corrections for hydraulic cams, just a few solids. Bur you can see how far off these are. Hydraulics are similarly far off.

Exactly, but the 114 lsa. The ONE TIME I switched from a lazy 114 cam to a 'hot' 110 lsa cam in a short stroke motor, it really woke it up. Again, only one data point, but if he wants a dramatic improvement in mid range pull, 110 and a higher DCR is what will do it. Particularly if one thinks the heads are too big ( I don't but would like to see a solid grind to help use them better at the top end).
The Engle on a 112 is a nice compromise.The off idle, 'let the clutch up at a light' will be a bit better with the 112 LSA Engle, vs the 110 LSA Comp solids. So that is a driveability issue. But midrange/pull with the 110 will be superior.

He's looking for some more 'snot' of of this little motor! Ditching the wide separation is one part of it.

Off the line is a HUGE issue right now,i have to pretty much double clutch it from a dead stop to overcome the surge.I'm looking for,plant me in my seat light to light power more than going through the 1/4 mile at 6500 RPM.This car will see the street everyday (almost) and possibly some day the track. Guys - I want to thank you for all your advice,it has been more than valuable. If you ever have any paint or body questions(my area of expertise) i will be happy to help! So one final question. Your me standin at the counter at the speed shop with all the cams in front of you. Which one are you going to grab? Is that your final answer? ;) graemlins/beers.gif Thanks!!

Comp's XS268S Final Answer.

If you had a little less compression
XS262S.

The beauty with the solid, is that you can fiddle with the lash if the car doesn't behave like you want. More clearance, better idle, Less clearance, better top end.

I had a 30-30 Duntov solid in a '56 Bel Air 327 back in the 80's - Pulled well across the entire range of RPM...

Just a data point.

Joe

Yes the way GM makes the duration rating makes it look bigger than it is.

Here is Lunati's 327/350 cam
280 222 440 113

I believe Crane's (new web site blows) numbers were similar with a 114 LSA and slightly more duration.

The point is that as a HYD cam,it is still too much for the compression.

High duration, low lift and a wide LSA.
Not good.

I don't have any experiance with the Comp XE (HYD) or XS (SLD) line.They look like what you need for the low compression and shorter stroke.

Picking a cam based on a very rough guess on the compression is not good.

I have experianced the too much duration for the compression first hand.It will kill more torque than most are aware of.From the sound of it you are experiancing the effect as well.

If in doubt go a little conservative,but solid for the RPM.

TJS, RIGHT ANSWER! Yup, totally agree. Was wondering if the compression with the XS268 would allow 89 octane. "daily driver". Don't want it too sensitive to fuel. Boom, don't ignore fine tuning the carb.

If you are after max power then the XS268s would be my choice also; however, it will be a little harder on the valvetrain parts and may require different springs (depends on what you are running now).

If you want good power and want to set-and-forget the lash look at the Magnum 270S. Lobes are less agressive than the XS cams and these cams will go high mileage on valvetrain parts. They are also very quiet for solid cams.

Again, agree, not a huge fan of XE lobes myself. Wish Lunati had a nice small solid to work with, 228/235@.050 .480/.500 gross lift, 110 lsa. ASYMETRICAL! Kinda why I leaned towards the Engle. But Boom did say ' at the counter'.

I ordered my Engle EP22 by phone and it was at my door a couple days later. No hassle what so ever.