Yes I did the search...I just about got all the info I need. I just dont wanna drop 25.00 x 2 for relays and some wire from some sources.

Can I use ANY relay and socket? How about this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/PREMIUM-30-40-AMP-12V-RELAY-SOCKET-W-DIODE-FREE-KIT_W0QQitemZ270153447767QQihZ017QQcategoryZ75389Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And I would put a fuse from the buss to the relay right? What size wire and fuse do you recommend?

And lastly...after the upgrade is done, should I get better bulbs to take advantage?

There are thousands of relays and sockets in the salvage yards.

I have never heard of that brand of relay.
I used Bosch relays for everything in my 59
The headlight relay is a
GOOD thing as your current headlamps will be brighter
If you buy the halogen type sealed beams---brighter still.
It will not be necessary to tap into the fuse buss.
To power the lamps a wire would be routed from the main buss under the hood(if equipped) or directly from the battery.

Battery/buss>>>30amp fuse or breaker>>>>pos #30 on relay
then
pos #87 on relay to headlamps (LtGrn for HI--Tan for LOW)

the existing tan and Lt Green wires will be routed to pos # 85 on the relays---(you will need 2 relays----hi & low)

Pos #86 on the relay will be run to Ground

Having trouble with a link-----Check out the thread "headlight relay placement" by 'Daveo'

I posted links to a couple of pages of relays and terminals there.


FYI----in the 80s GM used bosch relays for virtually everything
pop the hood on a pont/buick and the row of relays at the back of the hood are all bosch type relays

Thanks Bryan.

How's that motor coming along?

Vince,

Here is a bit more reading for your enjoyment...

http://home.surewest.net/jahr/ElCamino/Electrical/Electrical.html

I DO recommend using a circuit breaker in the main power feed for the new headlight circuit rather than a fuse. Additionally you want to make sure it is the self-resetting type rather than the manual reset. Flashing headlights are better than no headlights if there is an issue.

I also recommend upgrading the ground wire to a larger size and using a star lock washer on the ground connection to the core support. This is a critical connection and any resistance will not only reduce headlight output but cause heating affects. The crimp-on terminals I removed from my El Camino had melted insulators from just this problem. Soldering these terminals would not be a bad idea as it will seal up the connection.

As to relays and wire sizes... a pair of 60W bulbs will pull about 10A so just about any relay will do along with 16g wire. You will have some extra safety margin with 14g wire if you desire.

Do be a bit careful on the high beam side though depending on what you plan on doing. You can create a real monster system with the quad light Chevelle/El Caminos. For example I have 55/60W H4s along with 55W H1s on the front of mine. That works out to 230W on high beam and approaching 20A of current. *THAT* will need some larger wires for sure :)

Vince.
Still at the machine shop----should be ready soon
He had quite a backlog and when I checked a couple of weeks ago, it was on the stand next in line for dissassembly.
I'm gonna be traveling for the next couple of weeks, so I will check again when I get back.
Would love to get it back in the car for a couple of shows coming up.
I miss my ride:(

Thanks Steve as always for the info - is that your car on that link?

Whats the diff between the 4 pin and 5 pin relays, can either be used? That link I have to ebay for the relay has a diode in there...whats that all about?

And Bryan, keep us posted if you would regarding that motor!

The normal Bosch relays have 5 pins because the switch inside can be used in either a normally on or a normally off configuration. Or put more electronically it is a DPST switch :-) (read Double Pole Single Throw).

You can also do other creative things with a DPST switch like setup A or B switching configurations and such.

The 4 pin relay will be a simple SPST switch with most likely a normally off and turned on by coil current.

For your headlights you can use either type of relay.

The diode will connect a couple of the terminals, I don't remember which off the top of my head, to reduce contact arcing mostly with impedance loads like electric motors. I do not think there are needed on a resistive load like headlights.

And finally, yep that's my ride in the pictures. It is a good 20/20 car: 20 feet away of 20 MPH and it looks pretty good :thumbsup:

Steve...those pictures of your headlights on your garage door say it all.

I'm gonna get those relays off of Ebay just for convience purposes. Guess I just wont use the center terminal.

Thanks fellas!

There are also 5-pin SPST relays
Thes relays will turn the power on to two separate items---one lead for each headlamp.

These particular relays will have 2pins that are marked as #87

The SPDT relays will have pins numbered----30, 87, 87a, and 58, 86 relay coil.

The 30 to 87a contact is made with NO power to the relay coil (85-86)
When the coil is energized the power will flow from 30 to 87.

For the headlamps---either can be used, but there will be NO connection to 87a

SPDT relays can be used for remote electric window operations as they capabilities to switch polarities.

I use 2 of these in each door to operate the 'window down' with my key off. one on each lead of the window. this gets power to the down side of the window and ground

(the exterior door handles hare inoperative on the 59----a key is needed to either open the door or roll window down)

I will keep you all posted on my engine

Thanks Bryan great info!

I'm gonna be a relay swinging mofo after all this!

ebay one no good. is using normally closed contact not open one plus coil and power terminal are connected together but need to be separate for your use. its for alarm use

look at item 140147446906 for relay you want. rip out wire in middle of connector.

those are both bosch relay knock-offs so either relay would work but the harness/plug in the posted one is no good. relay available in any auto parts store.

i personally would put 2 relays on each side, so if one relay or wiring fails you still have the lows or highs on the other side. split them up on breakers or just use fusible links, i think link is 2 sizes smaller than wire, so #18 link for #16 wire.

Peter

Pete, I was just gonna move the wire to the other spot on the connector - that should work right?

no, look at pic there are 2 terminals connected that need to be separate. you have to cut that short wire where 2 joined to use.

relay is to change alarm transistor output into relay. transistor switches ground.

cant type well here hurt right hand on weekend so ask back specific questions.

Peter

relay is to change alarm transistor output into relay. transistor switches ground.

Peter


yea I was gonna separate those two wires cause its not needed.

Not sure I understand the above sentence. I was gonna use this relay cause its pretty cheap. The others are pretty $$$, at that point I might as well go and get the MAD kits.

cut loop and move wire and it could be used. buy extras at that price.

it's wired with common power to coil and contact. red=power, if you ground coil=orange then contact opens removing power from output=white.

find right one is easier try item 200139249843

Peter

oh search for "bosch relay" on ebay to find lots there cheap

Thanks Pete, they look good...and cheap!

Just a quick test I did today. Put the VOM on the battery and I'm getting 12.4. Put the highbeams on, and I'm getting about 9.7 volts. All my connections are clean and tight. This was w/o the motor running, not sure if that makes a diff or not. Looks like I have alot to gain by getting the voltage up to these lights.

Motor running will change the overall system voltage.

Think of it this way, your battery can push out 12.4V and the charging system needs to push out more so you can charge the battery. Typical system voltage with the engine running are around 14V.

The other factor is that it is normal for the voltage to drop some under a load. But probably not that much.

I would try the test again with the engine running and see what voltages you get. It sounds like you have a pretty significant drop there.

Yea I tried it again, about 14.04 running at idle/11.5-11.8 at all the lights w/high beams on. The ground wire needs an upgrade cause if I throw one lead on the battery the voltage at the lights get to about 12. All the connections to the lights look good (but old), no melted wire or corrosion. I "pierced" or poked through the wire upstream a bit just to get away from the connectors to check the voltage and it was the same 11.8 volts, so it looks like there is just voltage drop due to length rather than connection quality.

Last question guys: these relays and sockets seem to come with 16 ga wire - is that sufficent?

#16 should be fine for that short length. i believe long stock wire from switch to lights is 16awg so that little piece will be much better.

your light circuit has about a 2V drop or 14% so fairly significant change once fixed.

Peter

Guys what size breaker do you suggest? I'm thinking a 15a for the 16g wire?

Well Vince it all depends on what kind of bulbs you want to run...

That 15A would probably work fine for the low beams.

My setup has 230 watts on high beam so it pulls close to 20A. That is not gonna work too well with a 15A fuse ;-)

I put dual 30A breakers on mine, one for low and another for high. Not sure now if that was the smallest Maxi size rating or just the next bump up from 20A. It may have also been influenced by buying the breakers from a wholesaler with a minimum order quantity too ;-)

I'm gonna just run a set of halogen bulbs, combined with the relays (which have 16g wires).

I just came from Autozone, only have 20,25, and 30A breakers.

Wait...do you suggest 1 or 2 breakers? I was gonna put a breaker on each relay so if there's a problem, at least on set of lights will work.

20A breakers should be fine

i would put 2 breakers hi/low and 4 relays hi/lo both sides seperate

Peter

I went with one breaker/relay for high and one for low just as you are thinking of doing Vince.

The setup Peter describes might buy you a bit of fault tolerance should a relay fail but at the cost of more little blocks with more wire connections.

You could run the 20A breaker for low beams but I would run the 25A minimum for high beams. If you run regular off the shelf halogen headlights you will probably never exceed the 20A on high, but if you step up to something in the H4/H1 category like I have you will want the extra margin.

Thanks fellas great info. What I find confusing is the breaker ratings: I dont know what amp rating 16g wire has, I'm guessing around 10-12a??? Why would we then put a much bigger breaker on that circuit...seems a bit conterintuitive. While I'm at it, I'm gonna cut all the terminals off of all the wires and redo them (solder, shrink wrap). Might as well go all the way.

What Pete is suggesting is some redundancy with the multiple relays. This relay setup looks perfect for that:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-2-12V-30-40A-RELAYS-W-DUAL-SOCKET-5-WIRE-HARNESS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33721QQihZ012QQ itemZ220138950520QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Yeah that would would probably work fine in a redundant setup.

For normal use I would want to determine which relay terminals are jumpered together by that big yellow and small white.

This is part of what I really like about the power distribution box pulled from a junker. Ford makes a nice one that combines a bunch of relay sockets with more fuse sockets than you can use. Jeeps also have a nice box for relays. When you start to add more relays it can get a bit "busy" with all the wires and mounting and other stuff. The box wraps it all nice and tidy.

Wire size selection is rather more complicated than you might imagine. I wrote a long discussion on TC once about it. It really is a combination of amperage and length and a host of other lesser parameters. It does not help that just about every reference table I have found varies on this topic. But here are a couple of references:

http://www.tessco.com/yts/industry/products/itm/automotive/get_wired.html#wire_table
http://www.rallylights.com/other/wiring.htm

That last one also sells the very cool Hella H4/H1 conversion bulbs.
The first one says you can run 50A through a 16g wire... but only for 3' ;)

The breakers are more about short circuit protection than overload protection. Most wires can handle much higher currents just for much shorter periods of time.

I just went and got a set of H5001 and H5006. The watts are 35/35 and 50....surprised they are that low.

So on high beam I'm only pulling 8.3 amps (100/12)...according to those charts 16g wire is more than enough, as is a 20a fuse.

Now, the low beam with the 35/35 rating, does that mean 70w each when on high, or just 35?

Either way, were still low on the amperage draw.

35 on low
35 on hi
only one element in the sealed beam is on whether hi or low
when you hit the dimmer from low to hi---low is completely shut down.
Only one circuit at a time.

I used 12ga from the battery to the relays>>>>>14ga from the relay to the HL Bucket harness>>>and then the headlight bucket harnesses.
The bucket harnesses look to be 16ga, but they are only a foot long, so I am not concerned about overload at all.

I don't have any Chevelle wiring diagrams, but it is very possible that the minimum size required for the circuit is used.

The 59 used:
20ga for the tail & B-U lamps
18ga for the low beams
16ga for the hi.
Marginal, to say the least-----plus the power to light up ALL went thru the HL switch and dimmer.

16ga from the HL sw., to a dimmer, thru a bulkhead disconnect, and then out the lamps = a VERY long path and the potential to overheat the wire.

using a 16ga wire from a relay to the lamps (assuming relays on core support) removes about 6ft of underrated wiring.

Using a 12ga wire to power the relays also will remove another hi-draw load from the HL sw, thus reducing the chance for a meltdown INSIDE the car.

You WILL notice brighter lights------I have never been a HI-Beam user, unless there are absolutely no other cars in sight.
With the short power run to the lamps, My low beams are now as bright as the Hi-beams used to be.

Nearly as bright as the lighting on the T-birds and Ranger with the lil halogens.

I think I am using the same beams as you just purchased----part numbers look familiar

something seems off there. Stock dual was 50W low and 37W high and high only beam 37W or something like that. You go from 100W low beam total to around 150W high total. The lights you have give 70W low beam and 170W high beam which is too little on the low to me or too much spread.

Personally, I'd think the 4000 & 5001 together would make a better pair. I think 4000 = 50W low/37.5W high and 5001 = 50W high giving 100W low total and 175W high total.

Peter

Well looking at Sylvania's web site and specs you get to pick either the halogen H5006 at 35/35 or the non-halogen 4000 at 60/37.5. So halogen bulbs are good but are they good enough to overcome almost a 2x wattage handicap?

This is part of the gotcha with the standard DOT bulbs and part of why I just said f-it and spent the extra $$$ for the Hella european bulbs. It's kinda funny that being a cheap azz I drop that kinda change on headlights. Running the H4/H1 combo *does* mean I have to be very responsible about when and where I light up the high beams though. It is kinda fun to not only see trees and bushes on the side of the road but the color of the trees and bushes on the side of the road.

The normal DOT legal specifications are intended to limit total wattage on high beams as protection to/from idiot drivers.

Back on relays... here is an interesting piece, a waterproof 4-relay block:

http://www.rallylights.com/hella/Relay_Block_Pictures.asp

One of the nice features of the better relay sockets is the ability to plug them together into blocks :thumbsup:

use 4 hi/lo beam lights instead?? I guess that's what i'd do.

That box is splash proof, not waterproof

Peter

The boxes that the lights came in say 12v...wonder if running them at the higher voltage makes the diff?

Yes

That is one of those little hidden complexities of life that we refer to cars as 12V systems and then run around at 13.5-14.2V all the time.

Many batteries (not just car versions), for probably good but unknown reasons, have individual cells that provide 1.5V each. A number of these are put together in series to provide the 12V total. But battery voltage varies with load somewhat, so without load you will see more than 12V so that with a designed load you see 12V.

Now bring in the charging system. It needs to provide an even higher voltage so as to be able to charge the 12+/-V battery. And 1-2V is enough to do it, so we see system voltages in that range (13.4-14.4V).

All the components in the system are designed with this in mind along with some extra design margin for reliability. But they are labeled for use in a 12V system as that is what the common reference is and it is sufficient to distinguish from the other common (6V and 24V) systems.

The difference of a couple of volts *will* make a big difference in the light output of your headlights. Thus you really do want to run them at the design target voltage and not below.

I'll try these lights and see what happens. I dont think a manufacturer would replace a light with something dimmer...I'm sure its brighter. Either way, its easy enough to change out.

What did you guys do for new spade connectors? The kind we need here has the "tang" on the back to hold it in the "block" that pushes onto the bulb. All the spade connectors I saw at Autozone, RadioShack, etc, dont have that tang, so the wire would be pushed out of the block when hooking it up to the bulb.

Steve, what type of breaker do you like, there's the small one that looks like it goes in a fuse block, and a much bigger beefer one that looks like it would screw down to something. The small one looks easy to change out if needbe though.

I did use new terminals on all of the headlight connections. I think I used the old connector bodies. Which means I have some of the AAW connector kits floating around the garage still...

I really prefer to use the GM "type 56" (I think that is what they are called) terminals where I can. These are the original style and lock into all the connector bodies. I picked up a bag of them for my general use figuring that when I was done I could bag them into bunches of 10 and sell them on Ebay. That of course was a couple years ago now...

Here is the latest catalog entry for them:

http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/219_036.PDF

I see that they now only sell them on reels of 4000 terminals :eek:
I think I only had to buy 100 or something like that. You can get these from American Autowire but it is best if you have other bits to order too or the shipping will kill you.

For breakers I did something like this:

http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/219_083.PDF

This is a fuse type and you want the "type I" self resetting. This outfit has a minimum order quantity of 2 for the breakers. I used stock #46675 30A but the 20A is 46673. You are correct that these could be replaced with normal fuses in a pinch. Me likey that. Me not likey the screw connection breakers so much as it is yet more stuff to figure out how to mount.

Steve
I just got on their site and it appears the the terminals are available in pieces.
about ......$.15ea (Approx)
Minimum order of about 40 pieces.
When I ordered from them they had a $5. minimum per line item
Maybe someone needs to call and verify????


Vince

Engine builder called today.
1st and 2nd rings mixed on all 8 pistons (GMPP quality)
Valve seals bad.

He did a hone and installed new rings and valve seals.
Hope this works.
Gonna be a while before I get to it----gonna be traveling for a while.
He called just as I got off the plane in Phoenix

All right guys...all done :hurray: !

I cut all the connectors off of the headlights and soldered new ones on, shrink wraped 'em, and replaced the for bulbs. That alone made them bright. Put the 2 relay kits on, super easy to do. Except, this didn't seem to make them look any brighter, but the car wasnt running either. I'm sure it will be once its running.
Cost:

2 relay/harnesses from Ebay shipped: $9.45
10 new "Packard 59" pushon connectors : $12.00
2 breakers: $6.00

The "Packard" connectors are the PIA to get, you have to special order them froma supply house as PepBoys, A-Zone, etc dont have them. I shoulda tried the dealer.

So for under 30.00 were good to go. I do suggest cutting all the connectors for the lights and redoing them, cleaning the contact area isn't enough - I had to cut some of the wires back a few inches till I hit good copper.

You should be pleased
I sure was
And now you have removed potential fire hazard from inside the car.

Did you hit your new connectors with a soldering iron? This can be a good idea not so much for improving the electrical connection as for sealing the connection so it cannot degrade over time. :thumbsup:

Did you hit your new connectors with a soldering iron? This can be a good idea not so much for improving the electrical connection as for sealing the connection so it cannot degrade over time. :thumbsup:


Yea I did, but it does beat on the wire (insulation gets a little soft).

Ever notice that the marine guys dont like to solder wire? They perfer crimping. Know why?

The marine wire is a heavy pvc coated wire and the insulation will melt as you discovered.
Also, soldering, I would imagine, would increase the chances of corrosion at the connections.

Different metals---salt air--
Just my thoughts--have never researched it tho.

Sorry for expanding on this, but I just finished a Xenon light upgrade with great results on my 70 chevelle.
I've done a lot of searches on this topic; My intent is to show what worked for me, so others don't need to reinvent the wheel
Products used:
Delta tech 5 3/4" Xenon Headlamp kit (1)#01-1139-50X (1) #01-1129-50AX
JC Whitney $165.98
APC H4 Wire Harness kit, includes relays, light connectors, and a plug and play connector.
Summit Racing #AMC-5-09103 $34.39(FYI APC is no-longer in business, but summit still has these harnesses.
You can also get the same Delta kit through OPG, but when I checked they were not in stock and a little more $$.
Anyway you will need to modify the (4) light buckets and the radiator support behind the buckets to accommodate the water proof boots. Tin snips for the buckets, and a sawzall for the support. Just don't cut the area around the spring hole in the rad support. I cut my buckets first; made sure the boot would clear, and used them for my template on the support.
These are not sealed beams, they take H4 burners, which are included. 60/55 watt bulbs, not real.. hot, but a very respectable improvement over the halogens I replaced; plus you get full power to the lights. When the project is completed you will have a dedicated front headlight system.

The harness directions were misleading, but you wont need then; here's what I did.
If you haven't already disconnected your battery, now's the time; I removed mine to modify the buckets and support.
On your original light harness there are two wires coming down from the driver side of the vehicle; a light green and tan.
Cut those feed wires leaving enough remaining to do a solder slice. Remove the plugs and original harness, you won't need it anymore.
install the harness with the relays and power connector towards the driver side; you are going to apply power to the harness relays; via the horn relay. Next plug the connectors on the lights, find a suitable place for the relay harness; I mounted mine on the fender lip using the existing washer resevoir hole. Next the harness comes with fuse link wire for the power connection, I cut them off and added a inline fuse holder to each of the (2) power feeds,
NAPA # 782-2023 $2.69 each(ATO type 30 amp). I also installed a new horn relay just for fun NAPA # HR135 $48.99 identical replacement ( or Borg Warner HR 140)
Hook the two power leads of the light harness to the relay; I used the screw lug closest to the drivers fender, either one will do, but it was already vacant.
What remains is what i call the plug & Play connector. It has a red, white and black wire on it. I cut off the connector and soldered the red wire to the light green wire from the original harness feed, the white wire goes to the tan wire on the original harness feed, and the black wire gets a crimp on screw lug which I connected with the ground on the lamp socket harness.
Recheck all your connections, hook up you battery. turn on you lights; low beam first, then high. If all worked well, you will be as amazed as I was in the difference this upgrade has made.
Hope this helps.
Enjoy the night cruises
Cheers!!!!