This is what i found in my oil pan today, parts (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/Roller_Parts.jpg) from a recent roller lifter failure.(I should have used Isky Red Zones)This will be the 2nd solid cam failure (1 flat tappet - 1 Roller) since the installation of valley screens over the cam openings on a BBC.

Maybe there causing a lack of oil to the cam at idle? I know people have valley screens installed anyone else have this problem?

If lack of oil at idle is the cause then i'm going to install this overhead cam oiler (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/tube2.jpg) (below is the link to the article about the cam oiler, it makes some good points.)

Anyway i'm thankfull for the magnets i decided to install after the first cam went.

I put 2 magnets in the bottom of the oil pan with a mag-oil plug, a magnet on the bottom of the oil pump pick up tube (there was a cool indentation there so i couldnt resist putting one there) and two magnets in the lifter valley.

The magnetic oil plug didnt pick up anything but fine particles, which there wasnt much of.. hopefully the combination of all the magnets and the oil filter got it all.

Tomorrow i will check the bearings and hope for the best (but expect the worst)

cam oiler article (http://chevy.off-road.com/chevy/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=200746)

If you get the Red Zones or Crower with HIPPO option, you won't have to worry about lack of oil to the cam and lifters.......

Thats what i should have went with.. but i got a smokin deal on new lifters that i couldnt pass up which was great at the time but now i'm thinking i should have passed and went for the red zones or the crower severe duty with the hippo.

The crowers and the red zones oil the needle bearings right? oil doesnt get on the lobe does it?? or does the excess run out and lube the lobe?

I'm wondering for a roller wheel to be in pieces like that i'm thinking maybe the lifters i had couldnt handle the spring pressure.

I expected a flat spot or two but not two broken roller wheels.

Thats what i should have went with.. but i got a smokin deal on new lifters that i couldnt pass up which was great at the time but now i'm thinking i should have passed and went for the red zones or the crower severe duty with the hippo.

The crowers and the red zones oil the needle bearings right? oil doesnt get on the lobe does it?? or does the excess run out and lube the lobe?

I'm wondering for a roller wheel to be in pieces like that i'm thinking maybe the lifters i had couldnt handle the spring pressure.

I expected a flat spot or two but not two broken roller wheels.
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Yes the Isky's have 3 point oiling standard, the Crower has pin oiling if you order them with the HPPO option.
Both are excellent lifters but I prefer the Isky's for a couple of reasons one being they are rebuildable.
The Isky oils the pin & the roller with pressure oil.

Cheap lifters for a "smokin deal" that fall apart are not exactly my ideal of a "smokin deal" :D

Assuming you don't just have crap lifters I would say you are floating the valves, this is one of the things that can happen when you do
Do you know your actual spring pressures?
One of the biggest mistakes folks make with solid rollers is not enough spring thinking it is easier on the rollers
Nothing could be further from the truth,,
If you lose control of your valve train you will beat the crap out of everything, lifter, valves,,, not good,, :noway:

If you decide on Isky email me,, I can probably save you a buck or two on them ;)

Are there any signs that the valves are floating such as excessive noise or maybe a missing sound or a loss of power??

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Cheap lifters for a "smokin deal" that fall apart are not exactly my ideal of a "smokin deal" :D

Not true Mike, they very well may have bellowed smoke shortly before they imploded:D

Yes the Isky's have 3 point oiling standard, the Crower has pin oiling if you order them with the HPPO option.
Both are excellent lifters but I prefer the Isky's for a couple of reasons one being they are rebuildable.
The Isky oils the pin & the roller with pressure oil.

I have heard about the isky's on this site and should have went with them. I understand they oil the needle bearing inside the roller but what about the outside of the roller where it meets the cam lobe? usually this is oiled by splash off the crank correct?.. but not so much at idle? Then the overhead cam oiler tube from my original post in combination with the iskys would have been a good combo.

Cheap lifters for a "smokin deal" that fall apart are not exactly my ideal of a "smokin deal" :D

"smokin deal" means $135.00 brand new on e-bay still in individual packages with lube inside the package to keep them from rusting, no wear marks, never ran. The only thing is they were the "pop-up" kind maybe Lunati or Crane i say maybe because i dont know for sure the guy didnt have the original box.

I just think they were not able to handle the 600+ cam lift. and the spring pressure probably didnt help.


Assuming you don't just have crap lifters I would say you are floating the valves.

The motor never made it over 4500 rpm...after the first cam failure (solid flat tappet) i went to the roller and wanted to take it easy for the first 500 - 800 miles. 3 weeks later the roller went.

Here's some thought... the first cam that went, a comp soild flat tappet, that was already broke in and had been in the motor running for some time...but didnt wipe a lobe till after i put the valley screens in.

Do you know your actual spring pressures?
One of the biggest mistakes folks make with solid rollers is not enough spring thinking it is easier on the rollers
Nothing could be further from the truth,,
If you lose control of your valve train you will beat the crap out of everything, lifter, valves,,, not good,, :noway:

K-motion valve springs... set up by an engine builder who did my heads.
they should be right. He is a great engine builder who has motors in quite a few cars at our local track (stock car & drags) i will be talking to him soon...(probably tomorrow at the nostalgia drags) he has been waiting for me to get my motor apart to see what went wrong.

He also saw the roller lifters i had and didnt say they wouldnt handle the load. But did say he didnt know good or bad about them as he doesnt use that kind or style

If you decide on Isky email me,, I can probably save you a buck or two on them ;)


That would be great... i should have come to you for the iskys in the first place, and i wouldnt have started this thread.

But i have to say after two soild cam failures, i'm down on running solid cams on the street. People told me not to run a solid.. that i should run a hydraulic roller on the street, and that is what i may end up doing.

I have to do some hard thinking, and weigh my options and decide whats best. Getting back to Isky they dont make the red zones in a hydraulic roller do they?


And i know what people want to know most of all..."What kind of oil did you run"

Well i ran the good stuff... Racing oil that had ZDDP in it.

Thanks for your input mike... it's a pleasure discussing this with you.

Are there any signs that the valves are floating such as excessive noise or maybe a missing sound or a loss of power??

The motor never mad it over 4500 RPM.

Cheap lifters for a "smokin deal" that fall apart are not exactly my ideal of a "smokin deal" :D

Not true Mike, they very well may have bellowed smoke shortly before they imploded:D

Yeah... Jason.... thats funny. When is your next act?

I have heard about the isky's on this site and should have went with them. I understand they oil the needle bearing inside the roller but what about the outside of the roller where it meets the cam lobe? usually this is oiled by splash off the crank correct?.. but not so much at idle? Then the overhead cam oiler tube from my original post in combination with the iskys would have been a good combo.



"smokin deal" means $135.00 brand new on e-bay still in individual packages with lube inside the package to keep them from rusting, no wear marks, never ran. The only thing is they were the "pop-up" kind maybe Lunati or Crane i say maybe because i dont know for sure the guy didnt have the original box.

I just think they were not able to handle the 600+ cam lift. and the spring pressure probably didnt help.




The motor never made it over 4500 rpm...after the first cam failure (solid flat tappet) i went to the roller and wanted to take it easy for the first 500 - 800 miles. 3 weeks later the roller went.

Here's some thought... the first cam that went, a comp soild flat tappet, that was already broke in and had been in the motor running for some time...but didnt wipe a lobe till after i put the valley screens in.



K-motion valve springs... set up by an engine builder who did my heads.
they should be right. He is a great engine builder who has motors in quite a few cars at our local track (stock car & drags) i will be talking to him soon...(probably tomorrow at the nostalgia drags) he has been waiting for me to get my motor apart to see what went wrong.

He also saw the roller lifters i had and didnt say they wouldnt handle the load. But did say he didnt know good or bad about them as he doesnt use that kind or style




That would be great... i should have come to you for the iskys in the first place, and i wouldnt have started this thread.

But i have to say after two soild cam failures, i'm down on running solid cams on the street. People told me not to run a solid.. that i should run a hydraulic roller on the street, and that is what i may end up doing.

I have to do some hard thinking, and weigh my options and decide whats best. Getting back to Isky they dont make the red zones in a hydraulic roller do they?


And i know what people want to know most of all..."What kind of oil did you run"

Well i ran the good stuff... Racing oil that had ZDDP in it.

Thanks for your input mike... it's a pleasure discussing this with you.
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That "cam oilier" is about as useless as tits on a boar hog in my opinion :D
Throwing oil at the outside of the lifter ain't going to solve much of anything.

The packaging would be enough to scare me away, it is a big warning flag when you find things packaged like this
It is a good bet they are a cheap POS import lifter & they are packaged like this so they don't rust on the boat,,,,

Lift has nothing to do with how well a lifter lives and .600 is nothing, I run this & more in a lot of flat tappet stuff ;)

Yes Isky has an excellent hyd roller lifter but they do not make it & it costs more than what I sell Morel's for

The Red Zone is a solid roller lifter only
I can also get you the Morel's which are in my opinion the best hyd roller lifter out there if you wish to go to a hyd roller.

Not true Mike, they very well may have bellowed smoke shortly before they imploded:D
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:D :D

Mike,

How's the Isky needle-less solid roller lifters doing?

Or are they too new?

pdq67

Mike,

How's the Isky needle-less solid roller lifters doing?

Or are they too new?

pdq67
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Paul
Except for the price,,, they are doing very well so far

There have apparently were some issues after they went into production as the press of the bushing seems very critical but to the best of my knowledge this has been addressed.

I only personally know of one application where there were some some problems but it was not a bushing or bearing failure, my understanding is it had to do with the press of the bushing into the roller
It apparently was not enough & it wanted to come out axially & jam the roller against the body legs
This was an extreme application though, something like 350 seat & 900 open
I am reasonably sure this issue has been addressed as a "running change"
I do know Ron was working directly with the person who had the problem as I felt it was better than trying to do it third party

Bottom line,, price not withstanding :D
These things are looking very good & I am still "cautiously optimistic" :thumbsup:
I have a number of them out there now & so far so good,,,

Good to hear!

pdq67

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That "cam oilier" is about as useless as tits on a boar hog in my opinion :D
Throwing oil at the outside of the lifter ain't going to solve much of anything.



It throws oil on the cam, and isnt that where you want the oil? at the lobe where the roller meets the cam. as well as the needle bearing?

did you even look at the link to the cam oiler article at the bottom of my first post?

it says in the first paragraph the big chevy's have an oil issue that GM never corrected.


Despite having gobs of horsepower and torque, the big block Chevy has one flaw that the GM engineers never fixed. It's notorious for chewing up new camshafts.
The big block's poor oiling system and the angle at which the lifters are situated are the primary causes of this failure. Because of this, the camshaft doesn’t get enough oil and may fail at an early stage.

Sounds plain as day to me. But you say it would be as "usless as tits on a boar hog"

Doesnt make sense.

I think they would say that as to SELL their product. I have never had any issues breaking in a flat tappet cam in a bbc, lots of them used to be on the road too. Throwing/dripping oil on something that is spinning doesnt work, it just throws the oil right back off it.

Obviously you are correct that you do want oil on all surfaces....so yeah, youd like some oil on the lobe and lifter wheel......but where the solid rollers really need help is getting oil to the needle bearings inside the lifter. This is what Mike is speaking of. Any kind of oiling setup that only oils exeternally doesnt do the job. In other words, "throwing oil at the sides of the lifters". It would be comparable to rigging a system under the hood that throws oil at the side of the engine block. You will just end up with a really oily block....but none of that oil gets insided where its really needed.

Its the same deal here. Lots of the new lifters oil themselves internally to get oil to all the critical areas that dont see as much of a volume of oil as easily just relying on splash lube or anything like that. So when you think in terms of a street car that spends a good portion of its life idling and cruising at low speeds(lower oil pressure, minimal splash lube......)....these are the driving situations where it gets tougher to have a solid supply/volume of oil getting inside to the bearings in the lifter. These new types of lifters correct this by basically oiling from the inside out making them much better for street applications.

I do agree that it would be a very good idea to find out why you had two consecutive failures. Even though it can very well be as simple as cheap roller lifters flat out failing....Id still rule out all other possibilities first. So give all the info you can about cam and spring specs and everything under the sun as far as measurements go. The best lifters still may have a hard time surviving if their is indeed a bigger problem.

I figure the oiler could help a flat tappet application somewhat..but in that case I'd be using the EDM lifters most likely.

Cams are pretty much splash oiled anyway, so I guess it can't hurt..other than more windage and stuff like that....but it's only going to be marginal at best to getting oil inside to the lifter bearings. Pressurized lifters are the way to go on anything that's going to get street use...and actually for anything that's going to crank and run!


JIM

That quote from offrad.com is complete BS, BBC DO NOT have an inadequate oiling system. Folks are putting more agressive cams in is all, and not checking everything six ways to Sunday. And then you have cam co manufacturing "glitches". Here we have some offbrand lifters in a max effort solid roller. ??? Inadequate oiling sysytem. Pfft.

It throws oil on the cam, and isnt that where you want the oil? at the lobe where the roller meets the cam. as well as the needle bearing?

did you even look at the link to the cam oiler article at the bottom of my first post?

it says in the first paragraph the big chevy's have an oil issue that GM never corrected.



Sounds plain as day to me. But you say it would be as "usless as tits on a boar hog"

Doesnt make sense.
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Already pretty well answered but since you asked me :D

Yes I looked but I did not have to,, it has been around for years & works no better today than it did years ago.
If you had ever seen how much oil "leaks" off of lifters in operation you would probably be amazed
You have about .0015 clearance at the lifter, some have even more
This is a lot of oil
You have eight rods throwing oil all over hell at anything over a very low idle.
And there is a LOT of oil returning from the heads into the valley which is running all over the cam
The cam & lifters do not need any more oil just thrown at them.

As Jim stated what a roller could stand is pressurized oil at the axle or the center of the rotating object
And in the case of a flat tappet the EDM hole or with aggresive hyd flat tappet a groove on the leading edge of the lifter bore to add oil

The statement that BB's have some sort of an oiling problem is not really accurate.
What exactly is this supposed "oiling problem"??
Why is the angle of the lifters causing an oiling problem?
If the BB has a cam oiling issue than how does a small block ever keep a cam in it with the little return holes it has in the valley??

BB Chevys do not have a cam & lifter oiling issue but some do have an alignment issue.
If you have one of the blocks that happens to be off enough to cause the cam & lifter issues throwing more oil at the problem is certainly not going to fix it ;)

My experience with a single engine over nearly 8 years, leads me to believe "inadequate oiling system" to be BS as well.

I bought a "crate" L88 in the late '60s that I drag raced with. Only went low 11s @ 124-5. In the 70s I decided to go Hydro racing and rebuilt the engine around the power requirements of boat racing. You go into a turn with a hydro @ top speed and the drag from skid fin and rudder slows the boat all the way through the turn until you straighten it out. The greatest power requirement is in the turn, yet you must be able to accelerate for 3/4 of the straight. RPM on the engine would be down to 5000 in the turns and up to 75-7600 at the end of the shute. On a good course I would start to accelerate in the midddle of the back shute for a start, and never lift for 3 laps. 3-3.5min @ WOT. When I returned to the pits the oil temps would be 260-280+ degrees. The engine held world records in two classes and didn't suffer any oiling problems in spite of the oil degradation. I ran the same crankshaft, turned once, for the eight years of ownership.

I cannot believe "inadequate oiling systems" could allow that.