I can't remember what a buddy told me works best. High volume or high pressure/flow oil pumps? For the big block build. What advantages do those deep sump square bottom oil pans have? I was just going to get a standard pan unless these other things kick butt, and if there is room...

Different folks, different strokes... my personal opinion is to go with a standard pump. My 454 had a HV pump in it when I got the car and I didn't like to see the oil pressure gauge PEGGED at anything above 2000 rpm. With a standard pump I'm getting 35 PSI hot idle idle and about 50-55 PSI going down the road (10W-30 Mobil 1).

As for an oilpan; if it fits your chassis, use a 1974 or earlier Corvette pan. Built in trap door and shroud for the pump.

/Markus

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Supercharger/R9294.jpg

Standard 4 qt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Supercharger/R9729.jpg

And this one, its 8 1/4" deep w/ trap door.
Would this fit clear the crossmember and everything? Whats the trap door do? A decent price difference between the 2...

A trapdoor's function in life is to prevent oil from sloshing forward when you hit the brakes. I had an el-cheapo Milodon pan without a trap door on my 454 and watched oil pressure hit zero when I stomped the brakes. Needless to say the Milodon came off in a hurry.

Personally I love the stock Corvette pan. I've taken the car down the drag strip, around autocrosses and even some road courses and the oil pressure has never fluctuated.

all you need is a stock oil pump and pan, you're building a daily driver remember?

i dont get it, you dont have any problems blowing your money on aluminum pulleys and high dollar oil pans when they arent needed, yet you were griping about buying valve springs and having them changed. whats up with that???

please, tell me you bought the reccommended springs for your cam.

Well the valve springs and all the components on the heads were brand new. When buying something I dont even own yet I'll try to go out as much as I can, depending on what it is. But in order to just get the parts would be nice, other than sinking more money into stuff I already have for more power, I can make exceptions smile.gif I know it's odd. But Serpentine belts are sooo much better, looks, reliability and performance... from what Ive read. Id just rather run em' if I can afford it.

I'll probably go stock oil pan with this oil pump:
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=SLP%2D224%2D4153&N=120+400220+309188%2C+120+400220

As for the cam and all that good stuff. I havent picked it up yet, but I decided to run a 280H, it sounds like a good cam and will work with my springs. If it sucks I can always change it down the line....

I sure have been getting alot of mixed opinions, especially the mean topics of Holly -vs- Edelbrock ;)

My block is an 89 block, they were 1 piece rear main seals until 91 right?

I've run Melling stock replacement pumps in several engines now and they just work. Never a problem.

Yeah I was checking out the Melling ones too, they seem pretty good. Why dont oil pumps come with pickups? Alot to choose from?

Originally posted by pnutkemist:
Yeah I was checking out the Melling ones too, they seem pretty good. Why dont oil pumps come with pickups? Alot to choose from? Because the pickup is dependent on how deep your pan is.

Grumpy Jenkins always used stock volume oil pumps.
If the bearing clearances are correct, it's all you will need.
An HV pump just might suck the pan dry if you have the stock pan.
I use the Moroso kickout pan on my car. I believe it fits most Chevys.
They also make a pump/pickup setup for it, and you can choose between the HV or standard volume pump. They even braze the pickup to the pump.
I am currently having a small clearance problem with my setup, so maybe you ought to buy the pump and pickup seperately amd set up the clearance yourself.
The stock pickups work well.......with stock pans. But beware that GM had some problems with the over the counter stuff, the pickups fell off the tubes! A buddy (who works for a Chev dealership) had this happen 2 times. So the guess is that GM was buying the pickups from some cheapo supplier. Just weld it all and be sure.

Good choice on the Comp 280H. You will like it. But buy the right springs.....what came on your heads won't cut it , and they tend to break.

Ron

Good choice on the Comp 280H. You will like it. But buy the right springs.....what came on your heads won't cut it , and they tend to break. i as well as other posters here have tried to tell him this, but he doesnt want to hear it. he would rather spend his money on the bling bling stuff, he might as well buy some 20" spinners while hes at it.

i dont think he knows how important selecting the correct valve springs is, especially with a big block and its heavy valvetrain. having the correct valve springs wont increase performance, but having the incorrect ones will hurt performance and possibly reliability.

all i can say is i would much rather spend the money where it needs to be spent than going out and buying a bunch of nice shiny parts that dont equal squat as far as reliabilty and or performance.

im telling you, if you keep heading down this road, you will end up with a pile of nice shiny parts and a broke engine.

Originally posted by pnutkemist:
My block is an 89 block, they were 1 piece rear main seals until 91 right? I think it was like this:

Pre-89 = 2pc Rear main seal

89+ = 1pc Rear main seal

The 280H cam is only like .524 lift, if even that. The springs I have can take up to .550 What else goes into concideration, probably many things im sure? This cam isnt that extreme I thought it would be fine. If I need new springs Id obviously get them over "bling bling" and polished aluminum isnt shiny ;) Hey you know it's cool. I just wanted to cam shop for the springs I already had, maybe it wont happen I dont know. But serpentine belts arent bling bling parts, there far better than the little dinky belt drives. But other than lift, if they arent STRONG enough and they have the potential to break I'll can em' and go with better springs would I need to mess with the valves?

Oh yeah, I thought id forget my main question here. What kind of clearence do we want for the pickup to pan? As long as it doesnt hit? A couple inches... ?

But back to the oil pan and pump. I really hate chrome, everything will be black and aluminum. I was going to get a 1965-1990 BBC Stock type unplated finish oil pan w/ the above oil pump I listed. I was just going to paint the pan black so unplated would be perfect. Not sure on the pickup yet.

That sucks about the pickups coming off the pump. Can they be spot welded so they won't pop off? They just slip on don't they?

Phil

i was being blunt to prove a point. and yes i cant say that i dont like bling bling stuff myself. but my point is is that im willing to buy the parts i need before i buy the parts i want.

while the lift and coil bind are concerns, so is spring pressure!!! if you dont have enough pressure the valves can float causing a loss in power and the springs to fatigue and possibly break(stock springs are known for this). which could drop a valve in the cyl which would most likely render your engine useless.

buy the right springs, you may need retainers and keepers as well. Chris aka Mr 4speed had reccommended a spring/retainer kit in one of your previous posts. the valves you have will work fine.

I havent bought the other junk yet, I was just shopping for stuff I liked while waiting for my short block to come home. Yeah I agree with you totally though. I wasnt completely sold on these springs yet, I didnt buy a cam or any of that, was just concentrated on getting the pistons and crank/ short block assembled. But I will probably be buying some nice springs, maybe I can go higher than the 280H then eh? ;)

20" Spinners, I wouldnt wish those on anyone.. hah... Theres a guy here in town, im not a huge elky fan but a guy in town has a beautiful restore, its a copper color, sounds nice looks sharp as hell, and he has 18-20" spinners on it. I see it all over town and it makes me slightly upset ;) Errrrr. Atleast he doesnt have those chromed plastic spinners.

i did some searching on oil pans for you

ebay: chevelle oil pans (http://motors.search.ebay.com/chevelle-oil-pan_eBay-Motors_W0QQfromZR7QQsacategoryZ6000QQsamotorscateg orymapZ6000QQsoitemstatusZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1)

milodon pan (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MIL%2D30710&N=120+4294925232+4294925173+300974)

summit brand steel oil pan (natural finish) (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DG3510X&N=120+4294925232+4294925173+301808)

That sucks about the pickups coming off the pump. Can they be spot welded so they won't pop off? They just slip on don't they? yes, the standard procedure is to disassemble the pump and remove the spring inside. then re-assemble it and install the pump on the engine with the pickup inserted into the pump. you need to use clay on top of the pickup(actually the bottom) and install the oil pan with the gasket. then remove and check the clay for the clearance.

i believe you should be shooting for something like 3/8s off the bottom of the pan. hopefully someone who knows for sure will reply. if im not mistaken, one of the books you have should cover this.

once you get the proper clearance you tack the pickup to the pump, let it cool and then re-install the spring.

and heres a set of nice spinner hubcaps, ive already got mine ordered!

spinner hubcaps (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33744&item=7943354992&rd=1)

http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/04/59/e5_1.JPG

graemlins/thumbsup.gif ;) tongue.gif

Yes, the recommended clearance between the pickup and pan is 3/8".

I will restate my previous comment regarding the Milodon pan: it is pure junk! A factory oilpan is superior.

I run a stock replacement Milodon pan with my combo..works fine for me.

Haha, those are some sweet wheels ;) Ive never understood it... Ive also heard mixed feelings about the Milodon pans, I'll go with a stock type pan.

Originally posted by mr 4 speed:
I run a stock replacement Milodon pan with my combo..works fine for me. But what happens if you hit the brakes? On mine the pump sucked air and pressure went to zero. Pretty scary! I had the pan you have in the link.

Phil, why not have one exhaust and one intake valve spring removed and tested for seat/nose pressure, coil bind and such?

Then you can know for sure where you're at, and maybe save money on springs? You'll know exactly what kind of cam you can handle and get one that fits.

Just a thought.

If that's an 89 block and has the one piece rear main seal. I believe it will take a different pan the older engines (markIV's). Make sure what type block you have first....

graemlins/waving.gif
Rick

Enrique

he has the spring specs from the guy he bought the heads from. they do not have enough seat pressure for the cam he wants to use.

Rick

he has a "286" block which is a mark iv and has the 2 piece rear main seal. ive read that 1991 was the first year for the 1 piece rear main in the bbc.

Well, I'd still have them tested, "buyer beware" and all that stuff.

Buy a cam spring and lifter kit and be done with it. Or research what the spring specs are for the suggested springs comp sells and find an economical replacement, competition products offers a good selection of springs at reasonable prices if comp's prices have you scared. Competition products also has good cam kits at reasonable prices. Just an idea. Scrap the surpentinie belt alluminum pully stuff and run good old cheapy v belts, they've never been a problem on anything I've run over the years. JMO

( http://www.competitionproducts.com/page1-index.html)

I agree with BadBob.
Check Comps spring requirements and get something either the same or a bit stronger.
I believe I used the LS6 springs which were meant for a .520 lift solid cam with my 280H. I never had a problem thru 6500rpm. At that time, the GM springs were cheaper than Comps stuf, but that has probably changed by now. FWIW....Comp tends to be light on spring pressure.
I'd go look up Comps springs for you, but their catalog loads way to slow over dial up.

For the pan, the stock stuff works fine. The Vette rat pan was the best, but doesn't fit Chevelles......

Ron

The GM LS-7 pan is a great one overall, if you can find it. Check the pickup closely that is sold for it, word is that the later ones are having issues with the screen assy. being too close to tube in the pickup and it restricts flow. Just check it closely.

I ran the basic Moroso 6 QT kickout pan for years on my 427. Worked great with a stock pump and a High Pressure spring. Held 70 psi or so wound up. The volume and control of it is borderline with a HV pump at high rpm.

I used same pan on my 540 and immediately had issues. Pressure would drop as rpm rose. I played with different pumps, HV and std, oil restrictors, drainback stuff etc,,,,but the increased stroke just seemed to be enough to cause issues.

I went to the Milodon Stepped Sump Drag Race Pan and it immediately solved all the issues. Not cheap, but it works. It also has full length kickout area at top right side of pan to capture oil slinging off crank and give it a place to go. If you measure the oil level in the sump, you'll find that the Milodon is about 3-1/4" deep with 4 qts in sump, while the Moroso with the kickout is only about 2-5/8" deep. Doesn't sound like much, but when you're only talking about oil at those levels, 5/8" is a lot! The Milodon design steps in instead of kickout. The more I thought about it, it seems absolutely wrong to use a kickout pan if you are concentrating on oil control and keeping pickup covered. *IF* there are real good baffles you can pull it off, but I think the stepped sump that actually "kicks in" is a better idea. It is slightly deeper to keep oil same level from crankshaft, but I haven't hit it on anything yet. It doesn't have any trap doors, but it does have full length integral windage tray and I've also yet to have any issues under hard braking. It's a long way from the regular basic street pan and even dyno operators I know call it the "guaranteed 10-15 hp pan"! I now use a HV pump...I like lots of oil pressure...with no issues.

Another good pan is the one Reher/Morrison sells. It's a Moroso race pan with a couple of added baffles inside that they designed. From all accounts it works great keeping pickup covered under acceleration and braking. I went to their place and looked at it,but it was just slightly too deep in front to fit Vette without lots of work.


JIM

Jim, just to clarify: The milodon pan I'm poo-pooing is the "stock replacement pan". I hear good things about their race pans.

Markus

I have run a Milodon stock replacement pan on my car for over 5 years, 3 yrs racing full time and never had issues will oil pressure upon braking :confused: and it has no windage tray either. The 505 is a different story, Moroso pan with kickouts on both sides,Mellings MV77 pump with a corvette spring and a windage tray to help oil control with the stroker crank. A high volume oil pump WILL NOT suck the oil pan dry, old wives tail.

Yeah I guess I have to admite Ive kind of ruled out the Serp. Belt System. I dont think Im going to do it afterall. I have a spec sheet for my heads. I'll dig it up tonight. So the first stock type pan might have pressure issues when braking? What kind of pickup and pump were used w/it??

Yeah I know Markus....I was never too impressed with the Milodon stuff and had heard of all the oil control issues on their basic stuff. I was VERY hesitant to try anything from them, but the upper end stuff is very nicely designed.

I've used stock pans with HV pumps before and got by with it as long as RPM was relatively low-5500-6000 tops. It's not really the pump that's the issue....a HV pump can only put out the amount of oil the clearances in the motor will allow at any given pressure. A stock pump with a HP spring will move the same amount of oil if the pressure is the same. A HV helps with loose clearances or keeping idle pressure high. But with only 5 qts in the system, a qt in the filter, a half qt in the galleys, a a quart or more floating around in valve covers and lifter valleys and stuck to crank..there is only 2.5 qts at best left in the pan. Try pouring that amount in the pan and see how deep it is. With a little foam action going on it's easy to uncover the pickup in a stock pan. When RPM goes up..you can easily get a bunch of oil up top. I had issues with the Moroso using 4.56 gears on the highway. Steady 4000 rpm running had oil pressure fluctuating. I tried 5 qts in system on dyno and found pressure dropping after 2 minutes at 3000 rpm. 6 qts kept it OK..but just barely. There just isn't lots of cushion with a lot of pressure moving lots of oil and minimal oil control.

If you talk to Moroso about using their new billet bad boy pumps, they'll tell you to overfill any pan at least 1-2 qts to guard against starving it. Seems weird since it will increase foaming possibly....but that's how it goes.

On average Big/small block, a good basic Melling with a HP spring will handle just about everything and a HV will get the rest. A good solid 50 psi will keep anything alive even past 7000 rpm. But just a whiff of air will kill it quick.

JIM

Markus...my stock replacment pan works fine..over 10K miles,and plenty of dragstrip passes.And I run a HV pump too.
If I could build it again,I wouldn't do anything differently.I might skip the HV pump,but mine works fine.
My motor is built to 1970 LS5 specs,other than the cam,and having about an honest 10.5 to 1 compression.I don't even use roller rockers.

Mr4speed: I'm surprised yours works. Mine did the braking thing from day one. Are you overfilling the oil maybe?

Markus,I've run 5 quarts and 5.5 quarts and have had no problems with either.

Originally posted by Rapid Robert:
A high volume oil pump WILL NOT suck the oil pan dry, old wives tail. Depends on the operating range (read RPM). When my dad raced SS/D back in the day he spun a bearing shifting at 7k. Deep sump pans weren't a shelf stock part back then so they modified the factory oil pan to accomodate an extra quart of oil. This was on an L-72 427. Never had a problem after that. Here's an old picture of him racing for anyone interested:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/k/_/k_jett/Images/Ground%20Pounder/dad67.jpg
10.99 with an M-22 4 speed and 4.88 gears :D Gotta love it!

Kickout=PITA, Melling makes a new bolt on pickup and pump assembly for SB, not sure about BB.

Kjett...great pic!!!

The rpm range is important...a basic LS-5 with a cam change isn't requiring a lot of oil control.

Plus I know Markus...when he says he was having issues under braking, you can be sure it wasn't just normal stuff....he likes REALLY driving his car.....

JIM

So daily driver, fun street, and maybe a trip or three to the strip. Would it be ok to run the stock pan w/ the HP spring and a good pump? I dont think it will see much over 6k

YES

I agree...yes!


JIM

What a great long post for an oil pump and pan smile.gif So I got the High Volume Speed Pro/Sealed Power Oil Pump part Number 224-4153 I was going to get the O.E. Standard Pickup/Screen for it PN# 224-1152 and i went with a stock pan, I feel pretty good about the setup so far. Nothing too fancy in this department...

I think thats all I need...

Phil

not to nit-pick but i would have gone with the standard oil pump, your combo does not need a high volume pump.

other than the possibility of pumping the pan dry, which ive never experienced. the high volume pump puts more stress on the oil pump shaft and the distributor gear.

for this reason, and the fact you are building a daily driver, the standard volume pump is all you need.

a stock pump with the high pressure spring would be more than sufficient for your combo.

I agree, I'll get something else.

You had me scared for a minute. You got it now...use STOCK Melling pump with a HP spring. It'll do fine for $25!

JIM

What is this about a spring change for melling M77 pump? I am going to install the pump this weekend.

Daniel

Originally posted by pnutkemist:
Oh yeah, I thought id forget my main question here. What kind of clearence do we want for the pickup to pan? As long as it doesnt hit? A couple inches... ? 3/8" is what I hear everywhere.

Sorry, just noticed this was answered on page 2. I was on page 1, thinking I was on page 4 for some reason. Darn these long threads smile.gif

There are 3 springs for them I think...the stock one...a medium one and a stout one that comes in a HV. You can mix and match them to get different pressure characteristics. For folks who don't like the mega pressure of the HV, you can use the medium one in it. They are color coded, but off the top of my head I don't remember which is which. There is a white one, a blue one and a purple one I think. Purple is the stoutest one and I think white is the middle one with blue being the weakest..but don't hold me to it. Anyway, usually the M77 pump comes with the HP one separate in the box...look for it. It's all you need.

JIM