I have a new 489 with 600 miles, completely rebuilt 781's w/roller tipped rockers 2.19"/1.72" sodium filled exhaust valves (head shop said they would hit water with large exhaust valves, hmmmm), Crower hyd. roller, .512/.539 213/222 @108, forged probe flat tops with floating pins, Forged 6.385" H beams, cast eagle crank, block decked down to 0.005" for 9.0 CR. Heavy vehicle.

I have 600 miles on the engine and have used 2 quarts of oil total, just regular Penzoil 10W30. I completely changed oil at 500 miles. Do I need to be worried at this point? The engine was built with moly rings. I am wondering if I could be getting oil from PCV system but my valve covers are stock GM Vortec covers with baffles, don't think they would burn oil like this. Engine has 12 months/12k miles warranty. Some say 2k+ miles for break in, some say break in should be quick???

Given the parts described above, what would be the max RPM for this engine? I think it would be cam limited before RPM limited. Carb is a 750 Eddy with Performer RPM oval intake. And MSD 8360 with external blaster coil and superconductor wires.

Also for the life of me I can't get a couple of these Comp roller tip rockers quiet....maybe they just won't be, tried EOIC last.

I have an Innovate Motorsports wideband with AuxBox and am getting 13.5 mpg turning 2700 RPM at 65 mph, not too bad. Still have a little left I think for tuning.

I really appreciate the experience this site brings to the table. It saves guys like me with moderate motor knowledge lots of heartache and frustration.

Thanks,
Nick S.

How do the plugs look? That sounds like a lot of oil consumption. I would check the plugs for heavy carbon fouling. I would also suspect the exhaust would be kinda smokey.

I have been very easy on this motor to date. Under 3k except one time at 500 miles, 4800 RPM. Plugs look OK, not too bad, I suspect after too much longer I will be due a change out. I cannot see smoke going down the road but if you tap the throttle to about 3K and let it back down you will get a noticable puff from both sides.

Nick
Gotta agree, sounds like a lot of oil. Im from the side that says break-in should be pretty quick; certainly not 2K miles. And unless they milled the heads a whole lot, I doubt you're at 9/1 with flat tops and those heads. Chambers are generally pretty big, and with flat tops and large chambers, you would be nearer to 8/1.

I discussed throughly with the engine builder what my goals were. He provided the deck height, chamber CC (116, these heads were trued), gasket thickness, and said it was 9.0 to 1. With my calculations I got 8.94, pretty close. He had to deck the block quite a bit to get the compression up even with the 116 chambers.

If it smokes even a little on deceleration, it sounds like it may have a valve seal issue.

What valve seals did your head shop use?

Randy

I cannot see smoke going down the road on decel. If you blip the throttle sitting sitll to 3k you will see smoke. Valve seal type is a good question, they are new but I'm not sure what kind. Springs are 911 comp cams and the valves are Ferrara. All components of the heads are new, not to say this couldn't be the problem.

Nick

I would try loading the rings by doing several WOT blasts in 2nd or 3rd gear. Hit it from say 3k up to 5k the let it decelerate, then hit it again. Maybe 10 times or so. If it continues to use oil much longer, I would definitely have a talk with the builder. I don't understand the "hitting water" on the exhaust valve thing. I don't think that is a common occurance.

Why the sodium filled valves?

On the 781's (or similiar) if the heads were converted to hardened seat inserts, once they are machined for the seats, you are screwed. Machining for the next size insert will take a good chance on hitting the water jacket in the head.

You have nearly the same motor I have. Same heads.
Except your compression is prob near 8:1.
My motor uses a little oil too, about a quart every 600 to 1000 miles.
I have machined valve bosses for the clamp on style valve seals. These ride up the valve and do not stay on the head like they should. You may have the same problem. I sometimes get a puff of smoke when I first stand on it. I talked to a guy that bought a crate 502 and he was using more oil than I was. Check the seals. If they are ok, give it some time to break in. You might want to get some higher rpm runs on it now.

Check to see if your pvc valve is not picking up this oil, it will happen and even worse if you have no baffels in that hole. Pull hose apart and check for oil.

Gents,

Talked with the engine builder today and he suggests two things.

First, he says to spray about a 10 second shot of carb and choke cleaner into the PVC boss in the valve cover with engine completely up to temperature. If the engine RPM increases any during this time I have an intake gasket leak. Possible but I saw the same amounts of smoke from each side on the rev, but still possible.

Second, he says to make sure there is some "brillo" type of material in the baffle enclosure within the valve cover. This is supposed to give the oil vapor something to condense on when passing through the PCV baffle area. Makes sense to me. He also asked if I would retorque the intake manifold per factory specs. Where would I get this material for the PVC baffle area? Seems like if this were the case you could get an external condenser (like a breather kind of) to go in the PCV boss with a PCV on top. Is something like this made?

NickS.

By my calculations assuming a 10cc head gasket volume per cylinder you have 9.0:1 compresion with flat tops.
I would not consider any engine broken in without at least 10 full throttle blasts to at least 5,000 rpm. After the first oil change full throttle passes should be OK as long as the engine was built properly.

hi

nick oil 10-30 is it full sentethic or not ??

regards
sami

It is regular 10W-30 mineral oil, not synthetic.

Nick S.

I'd pull a valve cover and see if you can spot the valve seals riding up the intake valves.
I am also a beleiver in, loading the motor hard in order to seat the rings.

And we have 3 winners, good job guys,.....riding up valve stem seals. I was in the process of changing out the valve covers because the OEM vortec aluminum covers with the oring seals really stink. Could not get those to seal for anything, tried 4 times, still leaks. Even used a little gasket maker between orings and covers to keep orings in place, same result. Now I have bought some GMPP covers like come on the 454 and 502 HO.

So, how do I fix this issue with riding up valve stem seals. They did not just ride up a bit, they were at the very top of the valve stem next to the retainers. This is very frustrating after spending $1248.55 to have these heads completely rebuilt. Looked on the invoice for the type of seal and they are not listed. Please advise.

Nick S.

Here are links to the pics:

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff70/meenag01/RisingValveStemSeal.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff70/meenag01/RisingValveStemSeal2.jpg

If that's an umbrella seal, which I think it is, its fine! They are suppose to ride up and down the stem, so that's not the problem I'm afraid.

I would try loading the rings by doing several WOT blasts in 2nd or 3rd gear. Hit it from say 3k up to 5k the let it decelerate, then hit it again. Maybe 10 times or so. If it continues to use oil much longer, I would definitely have a talk with the builder.

I agree. Here is a break in procedure for motorcycles that can be adapted to automobile engines. I have been using a similar procedure for years that has worked well.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

If that's an umbrella seal, which I think it is, its fine! They are suppose to ride up and down the stem, so that's not the problem I'm afraid.


Yep, look like umbrella seals. I can't imagine paying $1200+ to have the heads rebuilt and they used umbrella seals?:sad:

OK, when it comes to valve stem seals as to which are high quality/reliability, I am ignorant. I take it umbrella seals are not the most preferrable option.

What should be in these heads for valve stem seals for 1250 bucks?

Also, I have loaded the engine up many times now, 1100 miles, no change in oil consumption. I have unhooked the PCV system and revved the engine a couple of times = puff of blue smoke as of today. The only thing I have not tried per the engine builder was to spray a 5 second shot of carb cleaner in the PVC port and listen for the engine to pick up idle. He says this will identify an intake gasket leak.

So it appears we are down to an intake leak, valve stem seals, or just plain bad machine work on the block/build.

Nick, I dont know how spraying anything into bthe PCV shows anything. The spray will just go into the combustion chamber and momentarily affect the way its running. Maybe you can change out intake gaskets just to rule it out, there cheap enough but just a PIA to change.
I would disconnect the PCV altogether for a while - it take time for all that oil in the intake and combustion chamber to clear out. Then try intake gaskets. I dont think its your seals b/c some guys dont even run seals at all and dont burn that much oil.

Did you assemble the motor? Keep your builder abreast of the situation. I gotta feeling that your problem is a little deeper. Hopefully it doesn't look like this:

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/jugs_oil.JPG

I am old and blind so maybe someone can tell me what I am seeing.

Is the seal binding in the spring? If it is then it cannot work properly. Chevy used 1.55 outer diameter springs to prevent this problem. A lot of shops use smaller springs down to 1.44 that can bind the umbrella seal. It looks like the head has a seat cup? Why- unless it has the smaller springs and needs the cup to center the springs and keep them from moving around.

Has the guides been cut down in height? If the seal is above the top of the guide there is no way it will keep the oil out of the guide.

I have asked this in the form of a question because I am not sure what I am seeing in the pics. I think you have a seal problem. I would try to get some seals that will has an interference fit on the guide and are smaller than the inside diameter of the spring.

Before I go any farther please let me know if I see what I think I am seeing.

I am old and blind so maybe someone can tell me what I am seeing.

Is the seal binding in the spring? If it is then it cannot work properly. Chevy used 1.55 outer diameter springs to prevent this problem. A lot of shops use smaller springs down to 1.44 that can bind the umbrella seal. It looks like the head has a seat cup? Why- unless it has the smaller springs and needs the cup to center the springs and keep them from moving around.

Has the guides been cut down in height? If the seal is above the top of the guide there is no way it will keep the oil out of the guide.

I have asked this in the form of a question because I am not sure what I am seeing in the pics. I think you have a seal problem. I would try to get some seals that will has an interference fit on the guide and are smaller than the inside diameter of the spring.

Before I go any farther please let me know if I see what I think I am seeing.

It's an exhaust valve so what you are seeing that looks like a spring cup is whatever they used to replace the rotator. They look like cast iron replacement guides that haven't been cut for positive seals to me (which would explain the umbrella seals). But I could be wrong. The springs look to be in the 1.55" range as well.

Nick, most of the time you would have "positive" seals of some sort that stay located on the top of the valve guide. The top of the guide itself has to be machined to accept that type of seal. They seal tighter around the valve stem and work like a wiper to keep most of the oil out of the guide itself. The exhausts would run fine without any seals at all so what you need to be concentrating on are the intakes. Umbrella seals have been used on millions of OEM engines, so they are not usually a point of large amounts of oil consumtion, even if they ride up on the valve stem. Unless the guides are really worn out. They are called umbrella seals because all they are designed to do is keep oil from pouring/dripping directly on the top of the guide, just like an umbrella keeping rain off your head. This is also the least expensive method of using valve stem seals. Which is why I would question the $1250 shop bill.

Springs are Comp Cams 911's which have an OD of 1.524" and an ID of 1.110". The rotator eliminators are Comp Cams 4779. The locks and retainers are Comp Cams as well.

As far as spraying into the PCV. He asked if I would remove the PCV valve and spray carb cleaner in the valve cover. If there was an intake leak it would seep through the gasket and rev up the engine. If not, it would evaporate and/or be evacuated as soon as I re-insert the PCV back into the valve cover.

I will be in Houston this week, what should I tell the engine builder. Also, I have been communicating with him the entire time so that in the case we have a problem, it will not come as a surprise.

Nick S.

I guess I would tell him it is still using a hell of a lot of oil. I don't know if spraying carb cleaner into the valve cover will tell you anything or not, but you can try it. I think I would do a leak down test on it to see if the rings are sealing or not.

Thanks Jbird, I have bought a new leak down tester kit because I have a hunch its coming to that. Appreciate all of the help.

Nick S.

I guess I would tell him it is still using a hell of a lot of oil. I don't know if spraying carb cleaner into the valve cover will tell you anything or not, but you can try it. I think I would do a leak down test on it to see if the rings are sealing or not.
=
I agree completely with the seals not causing this.
As has been stated, it would not use this much oil without any seals assuming decent guide clearances
And stock BB's as well as most Ford & Chry engines used umbrella seals for years without issue.
There was a time an umbrella was considered an upgrade in a small block,,
Today not much of anyone uses them in any kind of performance application that I know of though.

Now as to leakdown,,
Unfortunately if this is a new engine chances are the leak down will tell you nothing
Oilers can give you really good leakdown numbers, sometimes better than a "dry" cylinder ;)
The oil control ring & leakdown are not necessarily related
Unless it were a completely worn out engine or you had a half inch of end gap :D

Do you have one of those GM oil baffles under the intake? I've seen these cause the intake to not seat properly. Sometimes the intake manifolds are not machined for them and there is interference between the shield, the intake gasket and the manifold. The end result is oil being sucked into the intake port.
A simple swab of the intake tract may reveal that.

Also if the block was decked a lot, were the intake ports or the intake side of the heads machined to accommodate that?

You can do a search on this site and there are lots of posts about poor interference fits and how to test for the proper fit (intake big block ... are some good search words).
Let us know if you cannot find them and we will :-)

I assume you are talking about an oil splash shield under the intake. No, this motor does not have one. Got me thinking about the intake side of the head angle with decking the block quite a bit......good point.

Nick S.