The old combo was a 9.4:1 383 with ported #186 heads, a GM #461 intake, a 268 Voodoo ground on a reduced base circle with a 112* LS, w/ a 1.5 roller tip rocker). A stock TH350, w/a stock converter, 1 5/8" X 3" headers, 2 1/2" mandrel-bent exhaust, magnaflow mufflers, no crossover, 3.70 Posi, 235/70R15 tires. The carb was an out of the box QFT 750 Vac secondary carb.

Best ET was 13.78 at 102 MPH, with a 2.18 60' and 79.XX @ the 1/8.


New Combo: 9.6:1 396 SB (based on a 327), ported 461 heads, Torker intake, a reground single pattern cam .520 I/E (using a 1.6 rocker), 236* @ .050", 284* adv, on a 112* LS, .012" I/.014" E lash. Same exhaust, trans, and rear, but swapped to an 11" 2400 RPM Holeshot converter.

The carb is a Carb shop Stage 3 750 vac secondary Holley, that was built for the 496 in our Chevelle. I pulled the carb from the Chevelle and did a last minute swap about 30 mins before leaving to the track, because the float in the 2 month old QFT carb sank. I didn't have a chance to adjust the Carb Shop carb, but I suspect it was a bit rich.

I fired the car up Friday for the first time, and the float sank during my shake-down run before leaving for the track.... by the time we got to the track, the engine had about 65 miles on it.

I only got 2 runs in before they closed the track at 6:00 PM.

First: 2.34 60', 9.39 @ 79.3 MPH 1/8 mile, 14.41 @ 96.19
Car actually felt stronger than my previous runs with the 383...

Second run: bumped the timing from 36* to 38* total.
2.60 60' (spun bad and lifted) 10.30 @ 77.04 1/8, 15.42@ 94.54
Car didn't seem to pull as hard at the top.

The temp was high 90s - low 100s when I ran both engines. I'm going to run the car one more time next Saturday before the track closes for good.

I'm gonna replace the float in the QFT Carb, and am tentatively planning to switch back to the 461 intake, or possibly a performer that I have lying around. I don't have the hood clearance to run a RPM intake. I think the open plenum intake is hurting me, because the car shifts at a low RPM, and the engine isn't hitting it's power peak...

...the shifter linkage is sloppy and I don't feel comfortable manually shifting it. Until I can drop the trans to reach the governor, not sure what else to do.

Any thoughts on switching back to a dual plane?

how the hell are you running 12s in the 1/8 and then pulling a 14.14?

my pile ran mid-low 9s in the 1/8th with 2.2-2.3 60ft and I would expect it to run low 14s in the 1/4

unless I'm just retarded you have some serious problems on the first half of the track or some typos

maybe a 9.0 in the 1/8 but no 12.....check the slip again.

You guys are correct, I accidently wrote the 1000' time instead of the 1/8 mile time. I corrected the numbers in the original post.

That 11" converter,might be the culprit,I've never had good results with a B&M or inexpensive TCI brand converters.

That torker intake should be fine for your combo. Do you have a stumble or hesitation when stabbed WOT?

your motor is just breaking in. I took my car to the track with not even 300 miles on it and it ran the times in my sig. After about 1000 miles the motor reved better and loosened up and was faster after some good abuse. I might have ran 2 tenths better going back with nothing changed. That might be just a tad bit of your lack of ET/MPH too. Probobly not the soul reason for much worse ET's but could contribute to a little worse.:confused:

I think the torquer 2 is a poor design. I think you would be better off with a dual plane. I think the convertor is okay. I use a B&M and have had no problems. Your motor may not like the single pattern camshaft. The Voodoo is a good design, Slightly less duration at .050 and a good bit less advertised duration. I would think with 396 cid the larger duration shouldn't be issue, but the motor may like some help on the exhaust side with the dual pattern cam. Are you shifting for yourself or letting it shift automatically? Sounded like you were letting it shift by itself. Is that how you also ran the 383? I am sure that you can get some improvement there. It may be shifting too quickly and not taken full advantage of the RPM range. Lastly, your MPH on the top end of the track seems a little weak compared to 1/8 MPH. Most people say that you should pick up at least 20 MPH on the second half of the track. Maybe a fuel delvery issue? I would expect that it should be a really fun, torquey combo once you get everything sorted out. It also run a little better once it loosens up a little.

Rich

Sorry I reread your post and noticed something I didn" see before. Is that a solid cam?

Chief, 69Bu, thanks for the input.

Chief, if I floor the car, it will blow the tires away and get sideways with the new engine. The 383 withe the stock converter would do the same thing, but spin them further. I considered the prospect of the converter slipping, but I don't have a working tach to compare MPH vs RPM. I'll eventually get the stock tach rebuilt, but it's a ways down on the list.

69Bu, the intake is an old Torker, not Torker II. Don't know if it makes a difference. The cam is a solid. The cam grinder preferred a single pattern so, I went with his advice. My heads flow in the mid 70% Exhaust to Intake ratio, at every lift point.

There could be a fuel delivery issue. The pump only has a few thousand miles on it, but it is a stock pump. I ran the 383 on June 9, and the car hasn't been driven much since. The carb was prepped for a 496, so it was likely quite rich, especially if you factor in the track is at 2700', but I live at sea level... figure that might be worth a couple MPH, but I don't think it explains the full MPH drop.

I ordered a couple cams from the man himself. One was a solid flat tappet for the bored and stroked 283 (another project), and a HR version of the 268 voodoo cam for the 396. I was told about 4 weeks ago the cams would be shipping. I followed up after 2 weeks, and was told to expect them. I still do not have them. I ordered the solid cam the last week of April or first week of May, and added the HR to the order in early June. Needless to say, I am very disappointed in the delivery.

I was running out of time before LACR shuts down, and I wanted to take the car down the track with its original engine (the 327 stroked to 396) back in it. A local guy reground a cam I had and got it back to me within a week... I still do not have the Custom Cam I ordered way back when. I'll stop here, because I'm really ticked off about how that went... although expecting a cam in only 10 weeks may be unreasonable on my part.

The old Torker is a pretty good single plane intake, but it likes 2500-7000RPM... with the stock convertor and not much gear you might try a dual plane again...

a

I got my cam in about 3 weeks.

ak 67sd, I put an 11" Holeshot converter in with the new engine. It's rated between 2400 and 2800 RPM.

Bob, when I first called about the cam, I was told it would be about 3-4 weeks, because I had requested a 4/7 swap on a reduced base circle. I would have looked elsewhere if I wasn't assured I'd have the cam by early June. I followed up in early June and was told that the cam was next in line, after some Viper cams were ground.... it would be that week. At that time, I asked about a HR cam and was told it could go in the same batch as my solid cam. I followed-up to see if the cams had shipped. I was told they were definitely being sent. I still do not have them. I'm very happy with the 268 Voodoo cam in the 383, and I enjoy talking with the guy, but I'm frustrated by the wait, and having to spend the money having another cam reground at the last minute. I'll put another call into him this week, because the 283 still needs a cam...

As far as it all goes, I can imagine that its entirely possible that horsepower isnt much different in either build. Both were stock headed engines with port work(what was the degree of port work on each head...?). And you went from a nice modern cam to a regrind thats a little larger, but also a single patter(which small block stock cast heads often dont like as much....they prefer more exhaust). So....they might be real similar matched as far as overall horsepower goes.

And as far as the difference in MPH goes.....that may all be about the converter being looser than the old stocker(not necessarily being down on horsepower compared to the other build).

The 60 is also about 2 tenths slower on the best run with the new engine. Id figure after tuning you can find a lot of that MPH back......and with that new converter and traction, it ought to eventually 60 better. So, if you keep working with it Id guess better ET's(than the old combo) at a similar MPH(as the old combo) in the future.

Noticed you lost some when you went with more timing, try taking some out, maybe it only wants 34 or less.

Greg, I think I can get the 60' down a bit, but it's hit or miss, the tires go up in smoke pretty easy. The cam grinder thought the exhaust to intake ratio of the heads would like a single pattern cam. For now, I'm planning to put the other carb back on and get the combo dialed in.

77cruiser, I'm gonna take it back to the track this weekend for the final runs at LACR. The temps are supposed to be in the low 100s (at least that will be consistent). After I swap carbs, I'll go back to 36*. Then, I'll give 34* a shot.

Thanks again for the suggestions. The flow sheets for the heads are below.

461 Head Flow Sheet
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL432/649897/12432617/182717193.jpg

186 Head Flow Sheet
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL432/649897/7883562/189965635.jpg

Spoke with him this morning... even got a little history from him about the guy who did the regrind for me.

Things seem to be squared away and he says I should have both cams within a couple weeks. I'm looking forward to getting them, and will probably pull the engine for the swap and rebuild the steering box and get the headers HTC coated while it's out.

Between now and then, I'll have to get some runs in at Bakersfield or Fontana, so I can do some A - B comparisons.

Change that Torquer intake for a Performer RPM Air Gap and you gain a huge differance in torque and you will run faster. :D

great numbers from those heads. Something is up with your engine and I would expect atleast a high 12 second timeslip when you get it sorted out. This guys combination is impressive. Of course the elevation does zap power.

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86977&highlight=howards

Ditch the torker and put the Z./28 intake ( assume this is what you mean by #461) back on. Its a great manifold imho. Torker was NOT. Plus at that level its dual plane all the way.

Motorhead62, I'd love to run a high rise dual plane intake. I'd have to swap hoods to do so. I have a 1969 z/28 intake and a Weiand air strike intake, maybe I'll bolt one of them on and leave the hood off. Unfortunately, leaving the hood off, or running my old stingray scooped hood would require the wife's blessing, because the 62 is her cruiser... she only lets me take it out and beat on it once in a while.

fabio, I was expecting low 13s at 105+ MPH, and was really disappointed in the results. I clicked your link, but was unable to view the pics (time slips?). Once I swap out the governor to raise the shift point, I think it will pick up a few MPH; I felt the same when the 383 was in there, that I couldn't rev high enough in first and second.

427/L88, the #461 intake is the low-rise 3 hole intake used on the 1964 and 1965 327 350 HP and 365 HP engines. I do have a 69 Z/28 intake, but I doubt it would clear the hood. I will check it when I pull the Torker. I can run a 3/8" insulator gasket on the #461 intake, but was unable to on an old non-RPM Performer I used to run.

Thanks again to everyone for the input.

this is still weird to me, my 350 is really tame and still has run around the 9.2 mark @74 and pulled a 14.6@93 (this is with 34 degree timing, an extremely dirty fuel filter, and a rotor with a hole burnt through it)

I would expect a better run with everythng in proper condition

race weight is 3890 since I didn't pull anything from my trunk or anything

this was with a 700r4, stock stall, 3.08 gears

sounds like you definately need to get the tranny shifting where it should, but the results just seem rather disappointing thus far

in the link that guy ran a low 12 second time with a basic 350 and howards solid with a 3.08 rear. I never thought about the hood clearance with my 64 malibu. I don't think my rpm air gap will work now thinking about it when I get the motor in. Guess I'll have to run without the hood until I figure out what I want to do. I would also be pissed about the cams being delayed.

Thunderstruck, the performance definitely wasn't what I was expecting. Hopefully I'll be able to get more than two runs in on Saturday, and pick the times up a bit.

Fabio, I had a SB in my 65 Malibu with a RPM air gap and it cleared the hood. We now have a 496 with an RPM Q-Jet intake topped with a Holley 3310 carb. I GM drop base air cleaner just barely cleared the hood. The hood clearance issues I was referring to was on our 62.

Motorhead62, I'd love to run a high rise dual plane intake. I'd have to swap hoods to do so. I have a 1969 z/28 intake and a Weiand air strike intake, maybe I'll bolt one of them on and leave the hood off. Unfortunately, leaving the hood off, or running my old stingray scooped hood would require the wife's blessing, because the 62 is her cruiser... she only lets me take it out and beat on it once in a while.

fabio, I was expecting low 13s at 105+ MPH, and was really disappointed in the results. I clicked your link, but was unable to view the pics (time slips?). Once I swap out the governor to raise the shift point, I think it will pick up a few MPH; I felt the same when the 383 was in there, that I couldn't rev high enough in first and second.

427/L88, the #461 intake is the low-rise 3 hole intake used on the 1964 and 1965 327 350 HP and 365 HP engines. I do have a 69 Z/28 intake, but I doubt it would clear the hood. I will check it when I pull the Torker. I can run a 3/8" insulator gasket on the #461 intake, but was unable to on an old non-RPM Performer I used to run.

Thanks again to everyone for the input.

Will a very low profile air cleaner solve your problem with a high rise dual plane intake? Have you measured the pad clearance of the intake for fitment? Edelbrocks website has all of the numbers to calculate with.

Good luck :D

how the hell are you running 12s in the 1/8 and then pulling a 14.14?

my pile ran mid-low 9s in the 1/8th with 2.2-2.3 60ft and I would expect it to run low 14s in the 1/4

unless I'm just retarded you have some serious problems on the first half of the track or some typos thunderstruck507, Where do you see 12s? I only see that he says 9.39 at the eighth mile and 14.41 (not 14.14) at the quarter mile for the new combo. First off i see two things that are off. The torque converter is a not the best and you seem to have #1 (different heads & intake) and #2 (a different cam), either of which might have hurt the power. I don't care much for the Carb Shop carb and think you need to fix the Quick Fuel one and get it back on the new engine. That would remove one variable. Maybe going back to the original heads and cam would be another good move. Not every change works so back up and change one thing at a time till you find the problem. I had a Camaro with a big block once and the carburetor was right up close to the hood and it picked up quite a bit with a hood scoop. It takes a minimum of 2" above the carb for air to go into the engine efficiently, 4" is better.

thunderstruck507, Where do you see 12s? I only see that he says 9.39 at the eighth mile and 14.41 (not 14.14) at the quarter mile for the new combo. First off i see two things that are off. The torque converter is a not the best and you seem to have #1 (different heads & intake) and #2 (a different cam), either of which might have hurt the power. I don't care much for the Carb Shop carb and think you need to fix the Quick Fuel one and get it back on the new engine. That would remove one variable. Maybe going back to the original heads and cam would be another good move. Not every change works so back up and change one thing at a time till you find the problem. I had a Camaro with a big block once and the carburetor was right up close to the hood and it picked up quite a bit with a hood scoop. It takes a minimum of 2" above the carb for air to go into the engine efficiently, 4" is better.


Harold, I went back and edited my first post. I originally type my 1000' times instead of my 1/8 mile times. I also incorrectly typed 14.14 instead of 14.41.

I agree there is something off on the combo. The Carb Shop carb was set up for our 496, and works good on it, but I'm sure it is a long ways from dialed-in for the 396 SBC. I'm happy with the Carb Shiop on the 496, other than the Carb Shop putting a plug in the port for ported advance.

If I can find the time, I will switch back to a dual plane before going to the track on Saturday. At a minimum, I'm going to try to get the QFT carb back on. I just got the engine running Friday, and I'm sure there's more to be had from the combo. Unfortunately, I'll probably have to dial it in at a sea level track and the results won't exactly be apples to apples for comparison's sake.

BTW, the 383 picked up 3 mph at LVMS when I removed the aircleaner.

Thanks again,

Wes

Wes,

As I'm sure you are picking up on...there's some optmization to do with your combo. Shift points, timing, intake, Carb, traction, etc.

Just for a point of reference, I used to live at 4000' of elevation where the density altitudes get to 8000' plus in the summer. My old malibu combo ran like this: SB 400, with short rods, SR Torker heads, Comp Cams 270H, Edlebrock Performer, Stock Holley 650 DP and a stock HEI ran 14.00 at 97 in the 1/4. The temps were 90 plus all the time. 2.1 second 60's with 3.42 gears and a stock stall converter. Shorty headers and 2.5" torque tech exhaust. Stock BFG radial T/A's.

Don't stress out...you just have some breaking in and tuning to do. it will be a low 13 second ride when dialed in.

Good luck,
Bill

Got home from work tonight and pulled the hood. I then swapped on a Weiand Airstrike intake that is intended for my truck. I'm going to finish hooking things up tomorrow and start to dial it in. Hope to get the QFT carb back on. Worsecase, I'll starting dialing the Carb Shop carb in for the small block engine. I'm going to inspect the plugs too, just to make sure they are OK.

Track opens at 2:00PM on Saturday. Hopefully I'll see some improvement.

Thanks again for all the help.

Wes

While hooking the throttle linkage up to the carbon the Weiand intake, I checked to make sure it would go to W.O.T. It had the full range of motion. Then, I hooked up the kickdown cable up and only had about 60% opening or so.

When I tested the throttle opening with the Torker intake for W.O.T., I didn't have the trans kick down hooked-up. I did take some slack out of the kickdown when I swapped engines. I don't know if it was opening all the way or not.... friggin amatuer mistake.

Barring the unexpected, I'll be going back to LACR. Unfortunately, they don't start running until 2:00PM. Ought to be a bit warm by then.

>> friggin amatuer mistake.

just one of those things Wes. Just about anybody who has thrashed engines getting ready for a race has done that or something a lot like it. When I was heavy into thrashing dirt cars every week I made up a checkoff sheet for this very reason.

Keep us posted on your times.....

Yes it would surely slow down a bunch at 60% throttle opening. Maybe any other changes will be unnecessary now.

Didn't make it to the track today.

While checking the pugs, Two more new Accel 300+ wires gave up the ghost. The boots were gummy and soft. They couldn't have had more than 1500 miles on them. I replaced them with some parts house universal wires I had in the garage.

I pulled the bowl on the QFT carb and removed the needle and seat. I didn't see anything that would cause a hang-up. I blew them out with carb cleaner anyway. The float was a brass float. I didn't submerge it, but I didn't hear any fuel sloshing when I checked it.

After buttoning everything up, the car fired right up and puked gas out the vent tube. So, I swapped the Carb Shop 3310 back on. I swapped-in 70 primary and 80 secondary jets. I re-set the floats and the mixture screws, after setting the timing for 36* total.

The car idled much smoother with the Weiand intake, than it did with the Torker. Heck, the engine even idled smoother than the 268 Voodoo equipped 383 did. Throttle response is much better, but I haven't put my foot in it yet.

I went and got gas, and got on the freeway to go to LACR. Because the new intake didn't have an oil fill provision, I swapped on a set of old Offenhauser valve covers that were vented. These did not have gasket retaining edges... anyway, the gasket hung up ever so slightly on the intake.

It didn't happen at idle, but as soon as the car got up to freeway speeds, it trickled oil onto the header and made quite a smoke show.

Everything's squared away, and the car handled a 10 mile shakedown run on the freeway. So, my son and I are gonna go to LACR tomorrow morning. Tomorrow is the last day for LACR... R.I.P.