Just finished up installing my anti-roll bar from HRPartsNStuff. Here are a few pics:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/k/_/k_jett/Images/ARB/ARB_002_sm.jpg
http://bellsouthpwp.net/k/_/k_jett/Images/ARB/ARB_003_sm.jpg
http://bellsouthpwp.net/k/_/k_jett/Images/ARB/ARB_004_sm.jpg

I also lowered the car in the front and back 1.5". Here's a pic of the new stance:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/k/_/k_jett/Images/ARB/ARB_001_sm.jpg

I'll be racing in the final points race at Atlanta Dragway tomorrow. I'm anxious to see how these changes affect the launch of the car. Stay tuned...

Lookin' good. How difficult was the install? Does it clear the brake lines OK? The stance looks great. Good luck at the race.

Originally posted by Pat Kelley:
Lookin' good. How difficult was the install? Does it clear the brake lines OK? The stance looks great. Good luck at the race. Thanks, Pat. Install wasn't bad at all. Takes about 2.5 hours. You have to measure for and drill 4 holes in the rear cross member for the heim joint mounts. The rest is pretty much a piece of cake. One person could do the job but it's nice to have a helper to support the bar when piecing together the brackets. Brake lines are no problem. The upper horseshoe bracket is notched in several positions to clear the brake line. This bar is plenty big too at 1.275"

nice chebby!!! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Looks good Ken,
Questions:
1) With the new stance, looks like a tight fit with the rear tires, did you have to roll the inner lip?
2) Explain that garage floor surface please. What is that?
3) Where the bushings mount under the axle tubes, how is that piece attached to the tube? Clamped, welded? When you acellerate, and the rear rotates, I am trying to figure out what keeps that mount from slipping

Good luck at the races!

Kjett Nice job. Car looks tuff. That looks like it was an easy install with the exhaust dump tubes like that. I have the same setup. Will be installed next week. My exhaust 3" exits close to the original location at rear bumper. (69 Chevelle) Right rear mid hanger for exhaust is welded in the same location for the heim joint for anti rollbar. Gets moved. Exhaust will get 3.5" X pipe with 3.5" pipes from header to muffler and 3" out the bumper area.
Will check your results when posted. I am thinking it makes a good difference. Have a safe Quick trip.

looks nice ken, i was wondering if you could repost your roll cage installation pictures that you had on here a while back. i have a 67 chevelle that im about to put one in and i just want to get some ideas. thanks

Thanks, Westy!

Jim,

1). The inside wheel well lip has been trimmed, not rolled, about .25"

2). The garage flooring is made by a company called Race Deck Flooring. It's very pretty to look at, but not particularly good for a working mans garage. I learned the hard way that it doesn't like heat or sharp objects. The floor is rated at something like 1,500psi per square inch. Just don't present that load on something like a sharp jack stand leg. I have boxed the lower part of my jackstands to remedy this, as I use my garage often. As for the heat. I bought a welding blanket to use when I'm welding under the car.
3). The roll bar is designed to rotate inside the urathane bushing. In fact this keeps the rear from binding up, unlike a factory swaybar. What it is designed to do is to transfer force from the passenger side laterally (sp?) across the bar to the drivers side to keep both tires firmly planted.
[edit] Jim, I didn't read you question clearly the first time. Yes, the axle bracket is clamped to the rear axles. The upper axle bracket is clearanced for the brake lines. A picture is worth a thousand words (don't ask about the broken bolt :rolleyes: ) :

http://bellsouthpwp.net/k/_/k_jett/Images/ARB/bracket.jpg

Ron, thanks for the kind comments. I was running Straightline Performance mufflers (28" case) and Torque Tech tail pipes on my car until about 1 month ago. I switched over to Dynomax Bullets and dumps thinking it would help the performance. The old mufflers and tail pipes weighed just shy of 70 lbs. The new mufflers and turn downs weighed under 20lbs. Guess what? Didn't help a bit. I'm convinved that my primary tube size (2") is too big for my 460ci and relatively low compression (10.37:1). Now that I have the anti roll bar installed I think I have plenty of room to reinstall the old mufflers and tail pipes. I was afraid when I ordered it that the heim joint mount would be in the location where my old mufflers exited (offset), but it looks like it will clear. After this weekend I plan to install my old mufflers and tail pipes assuming they will fit.

Rippers, thanks. I will send the roll bar pics to you at your email address.

Very nice! How much for the bar?
With a 1.46 60 ft already, what do you expect to see with this new addition?
Straighter runs, less twist etc...?

Originally posted by BigRed-L72:
Very nice! How much for the bar?
With a 1.46 60 ft already, what do you expect to see with this new addition?
Straighter runs, less twist etc...? BigRed,

The bar sells for $469. The 1.46 60' in my signature was with the old induction system (dual plane, 1" Wilson tapared spacer). The best 60' I've been able to get with the new Dart Oval/Rect single plane and .5" wood spacer is 1.49 (not enough hood clearance to run the Wilson spacer). Most of my 60' times are in the low 1.5x range in the heat. As for what I hope the bar will do, I mostly hope that it will make my 60' times more consistent. They vary by as much as .04 on race day when I go rounds into the evening. If it actually helps the car 60' better that will just be icing on the cake :D

Ken,
Let us know how everything goes with that HRP bar. I got one on order too. Heard a lot of good about it! Good luck at the track

Ken. My exhaust is Torque Tech 3" Header to bumper, with Flowmasters 40 series. I think around 15" in length. When I mocked up the roll bar. It cleared the tailpipes just fine. I would think it would clear your pipes ok. Only my mid pipe hanger is in the way.(welded) Other than that. It would have been a direct bolt in with the 4 holes added. I would think the Bullets are rather loud. I know my Flowmasters are way to loud for me and the local officers. Which exhaust do you prefere? The short dumps or full exhaust to rear of car? I think in your case by the rear quarter panel. Good luck tomorrow.

Originally posted by kjett:
[QUOTE] As for what I hope the bar will do, I mostly hope that it will make my 60' times more consistent. Ordered mine today. Glad to get rid of the air bag and hoping for some better/consistent 60's with some other adjustments. Keep us posted.

The pics are dead! The red X strikes again!
Kirk

edit: I see them now :cool:

Ken,

The car looks good, so does the anti-roll installation. Seams like a fairly easy install. Essentially the same idea as the weld on anti-roll bars on the market, just executed the opposite way.

Let us know how it works out. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Wheels Up,,,good luck tomorrow Ken.

You stole my idea, Ken! tongue.gif
The Chevelle looks great, as always. Let us know how the setup works out. I'll be installing mine in the spring.

Any thoughs about at point the HR bar starts to show it benefits. That is, would a high 11 second car benefit from using one. As is, my car lifts the left tire about 1". The right tire stays on the ground.

Looks good Ken. I think lowering the car, especially the back end was a good decision. This helps with the instant center.

Your running no-hop bars right? If so, what brand and do they have different adjustment holes?

Todd, yes to the no-hop bars. I'm using Edelbrock bars with a single hole. I'm starting to think the IC might be too far back/down.

For those interested, I raced Saturday with the HRP anti-roll bar. In short, I didn't see a change either way good or bad in 60' times and/or consistency. Now, to be fair about the test, the tires I'm running on have over 90 passes on them and are pretty much shot. However, I would have expected the bar to produce consistent results. My 60' times Saturday varied by .062. Again, could be the tires. I won't really know the true results until I can get back out with some new tires (next spring). I will tell you that driving the car around in the pits as well as going down the track it feel much more stable. With tight tire clearance I used to have to slow down before turning hard otherwise the tires would rub. This is no longer the case. I would recommend the bar for a street/strip ride due to the fact that you can still run mufflers/tail pipes and it's basically a bolt in deal. In fact just tonight I installed my trusty old Straightline Performance mufflers. The Dynomax Bullets were just too loud for my liking and as stated before didn't help the performance of the car at all. I'm not convinced one way or the other that the HRP bar is the hot ticket for a serious effort race car. For me, the jury is still out....

Ken, if you do make a suspension change, might I suggest going with the Dick Miller upper control arms and his no-hop bars. Then, install the bars in the lowest holes. I think this would give a more favorable instant center. The lowering is still a step in the right direction for future chassis tuning/setup.

If you remove your No-hops completely, I think you'll lose much needed leverage to push the rear tires down. Your one hole No-hops have too short an IC and too much anti-squat. I believe you need something to give you IC and A/S inbetween what you have with the no-hops and the stock geometry. The Dick Miller setup in the bottom hole will do pretty much just that...a reasonable compromise yet still give different tuning options.

If you lived closer, I'd be glad to take measurements and build you an instant center relocation device like is on my car...for FREE except for the cost of the materials needed.

I think your sway bar results are similar to mine. I couldn't really see any true 60' improvements first hand, but the car was much more stable to drive and I do feel the 60's were more consistent due to equal tire loading. With fresh tires you may see that be the case for you too.

Yup, keep them big old Straightline mufflers and tail pipes on...nothing like running 10 second passes on a quiet fully mufflered/tailpiped car ;) :cool: .

Do I see airbags. What can you tell us about that
Thanks
Bert

Todd,

Thanks. I wish you were closer and I would take you up on your offer. I really need to plot my chassis on paper so that I can make a more educated guess about where the IC needs to be. I'm working on that. Mufflers are back on. No clearance issues so far. I'll be test fitting the tail pipes on tonight or tomorrow. If they don't fit I'll just put turn downs on the mufflers.

Originally posted by ASB:
Do I see airbags. What can you tell us about that
Thanks
Bert Nothing much to tell. They are airlift airbags, made from rubber and hold air? I don't run any air in them if that's what your asking? I used to preload the passenger side before I put the HRP bar in. The directions that came with the HRP bar indicated that no preload works best, so that's what I did.

Ken, i had high hopes for the bar as mine goes on next week. you said you lowered the car some in the rear. was this simply letting the air out of the bags or did you go to a lowering spring? second what setting are your rear shocks set at? closer to full firm or full soft? my car is squating on the launch, then rising within 3-4 feet then about 40-50 feet out sqating again. the second sqaut may be at the 1-2 shift, not sure. my 60' are very inconsestant. i wish we had the 4" shorter wheel base the 68-72 cars had. might make hooking a little easier. thanks Dave

Originally posted by sheetmetal:
Ken, i had high hopes for the bar as mine goes on next week. you said you lowered the car some in the rear. was this simply letting the air out of the bags or did you go to a lowering spring? second what setting are your rear shocks set at? closer to full firm or full soft? my car is squating on the launch, then rising within 3-4 feet then about 40-50 feet out sqating again. the second sqaut may be at the 1-2 shift, not sure. my 60' are very inconsestant. i wish we had the 4" shorter wheel base the 68-72 cars had. might make hooking a little easier. thanks Dave Dave,
IMO I wouldn't look for this bar to improve 60' times. I too had hoped it would provide better consistency, but that wasn't the case Saturday! As for rear springs I was running a stock replacement MOOG spring with a rate of ~145lbs/in with one coil removed. The height from the ground to the wheel well chrome was 25.5" front and rear. After my dissapointing outing Saturday I've installed another set of MOOG springs I have that have a little more free height and a lower spring rate (130lbs/in). I didn't have any air in the bags on Saturday and don't plan to add any for the next outing. No doubt the longer wheel base of our cars (115") vs. the 68-72 Chevelles (112") is a MAJOR factor in getting these cars to hook! I talked to a guy that builds custom suspensions for Stock/Super Stock cars and he freely admited the same. Good luck with your bar and be sure to post your results to share with everyone.

Ken, have you played around with pinion angle? i called Koni today about my problems and they said the shock settings could be argued either way (tighter, softer) and suggested more pinion angle. ALSO (my ignorance showing here) is it possable that track conditions could be such that 60' could swing .013 from pass to pass? thanks Dave

Ken,

Just had another thought.

Kevin Slaby is a fellow I know who is very good with tuning coil spring suspension type cars. He not only tunes them, but also can help with plotting the suspension points. He also just started a company called Baseline Suspensions.

His web site is here.

http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/

Kevin just informed me that he made his first prototype upper suspension system for the GM 12 bolt coil spring suspensions. If anything, I would highly recommend contacting kevin and inquire what he can do for you and if he'll work with you on building a system for you. You won't find a more knowledgable person and he'll surely give great tech support for chassis tuning...even if you don't buy a system or he hasn't made a setup for your chassis type just yet.

If anything, contact Kevin and expain what the car is doing and what your end goals are. I'm certain he will be able to help you meet your goals as well as teach you a couple things along the way...very sharp guy.

Originally posted by sheetmetal:
Ken, have you played around with pinion angle? i called Koni today about my problems and they said the shock settings could be argued either way (tighter, softer) and suggested more pinion angle. ALSO (my ignorance showing here) is it possable that track conditions could be such that 60' could swing .013 from pass to pass? thanks Dave Dave,

I have'nt really played with pinion angle. Mine is set a -4* and has been that way for years. Maybe I should try more. Did you mean .13 or .013. If you meant .013, that's pretty damn good and I wouldn't touch the suspension!

Originally posted by 10secBu:
Ken,

Just had another thought.

Kevin Slaby is a fellow I know who is very good with tuning coil spring suspension type cars. He not only tunes them, but also can help with plotting the suspension points. He also just started a company called Baseline Suspensions.

His web site is here.

http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/

Kevin just informed me that he made his first prototype upper suspension system for the GM 12 bolt coil spring suspensions. If anything, I would highly recommend contacting kevin and inquire what he can do for you and if he'll work with you on building a system for you. You won't find a more knowledgable person and he'll surely give great tech support for chassis tuning...even if you don't buy a system or he hasn't made a setup for your chassis type just yet.

If anything, contact Kevin and expain what the car is doing and what your end goals are. I'm certain he will be able to help you meet your goals as well as teach you a couple things along the way...very sharp guy. Todd, you're getting senile like me :D You gave me his info in an email the other night smile.gif I actuaolly emailed Kevin and you're right, real response and seems real knowledgable. Here's what he suggested:

Your problem is those damn no-hop bars. You're correct in that they bring
the IC back but they also increase the Antisquat so high it causes the
suspension to violently hit the tires then unload them after the car is
under way.

1. To plot the IC get the car at race weight with driver, fuel, tire
pressure, etc.
2. Measure from the ground to the center of the control arm bolts on the
UCA's and the LCA's and you must be within 1/8" for accuracy.
3. Measure from the axle centerline to the control arm bolts parallel to
the ground and to the body of the car. It's best if you drop a plumb bob
off of the center of the bolts and the center of the axle to the concrete
then measure the length between these points. This does not give you the
actual length of the control arms which is not wanted during this procedure.
4. The CG height can be estimated to be the cam height and can be a good
guess. It should be around 18-22" from the ground and 1" of difference
won't make much difference on the IC calculations.

Plug these values into a 4-link program if you have one or send them to me
and I'll plot it for ya.I can't get my head around step 3. If I drop a plumb bob off of the upper control arm mount points it wouldn't hit the ground. The upper rear point is directly over the rear axle, the upport front points are above the cross member? Maybe he thought I had a true 4 link?

1.53 to 1.66 and sometimes worse. we wont talk about the 1.70+. i dont know if its all the tracks fault. Dave

Originally posted by kjett:
Todd,

Thanks. I wish you were closer and I would take you up on your offer. I really need to plot my chassis on paper so that I can make a more educated guess about where the IC needs to be. I'm working on that. Mufflers are back on. No clearance issues so far. I'll be test fitting the tail pipes on tonight or tomorrow. If they don't fit I'll just put turn downs on the mufflers. Ken, I'm no expert. You know that. I did, however, use this link to help a friend baseline his suspension, and make the apprpriate modifications. We've squeezed 0.2 off his 60' time, with more to go. Take a look through and see if you can use some of it...

http://www.geocities.com/kdslaby/Tech_Page_Glossary.html

edit-I just realized the link is the same one Todd linked earlier. graemlins/clonk.gif

Ken, Senile huh? Maybe so ;) Forgot we had a portion of this conversation recently...dang...senile at 35 :D

On the mearuring of the arm length...lowers are pretty simple. Drop plumb bobs down from the center of the control arm to the floor (car at ride height). Mark the floor and draw a chalk line on the floor and connect the rear bolt marks with a line and also the front with a line (side-to-side). Next measure from the back line to the front making sure your tape measure is parallel to the centerline of the chassis.

For the uppers, you are gonna have to guesstimate a little. Take a square and put it against the housing axle tube on the back or front side, which ever it will clear the exhaust, etc. One leg of the square will rest on the floor, the other up against the axle tube. Make sure the verticle leg is long enough to be at the same level as the upper forward control arm bolt height off the floor. Now, take your tape measure and put the one end over the top of the control arm at the approx location of the bolt which is passing through the center of the bushing. Measure from this spot straight back to the edge of the square which is touching the axle tube. Write this measurement down. Make sure your measurement was parallel to the centerline of the chassis. Now, add or subtract 1 1/2" for half the diameter of the axle tube which now gives you the distance from the center of the axle housing to the center of the upper control arm bolt/bushing. The assumption you are making here is that the upper control arm ear bolt hole is centered on the axle tube, hence this measuring method.

What you need to give Kevin is the upper control arm length, upper control arm fron bolt height, upper control arm rear bolt height, lower control arm length, lower control arm front bolt height, lower control arm rear bolt height, cam centerline height (approx CG), front vehicle weight, rear vehicle weight, wheelbase, age, sex, race, hair and eye color ;) :D .

There's also a decent online IC calculator you can use...used it myself.

http://www.inductionmotorsports.com/ic.html

Ken, I was wondering what size tires you squeezed under the rear? What rim size and offset are you using? You mentioned that you have the wheel openings trimmed 1/4", it looked like the frame or the lower shock mount would be the first things in the way on my '66. Just wondering, because yours looks great, and I'd like to get that much tire under mine if I can.