JohnZ over at Team Camaro just posted that GM has stopped selling EOS!!

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111776&page=2

pdq67

I'm going to the dealership tomorrow and I'm gonna buy like 12 bottles!!!

I just bought some last week, so we will see..... might need to stock up :) In any case all of the major cam manufacturers have a breakin addative that they sell for about the same price, and it might even be better ? The warehouse I buy parts from has started stocking the Joe Gibbs line of oils which includes a breakin / startup blend intended just for this purpose. I am going to start selling it with every complete engine and try to sell it to anyone that is building a non roller engine.

If they did discontinue it, the main reason I will miss it is because we use it for assembly lube on almost everything. Bearings, valves, you name it.

Since GM is not in the petroleum business (perhaps they are-with my crate engine drinking it), how would one go about finding out who is making this stuff, and is it marketed under a different brand?

This is kinda bad news for me, as I intended to use it when my motor gets back to me.

I've also used the Crane Super Lube for break in and their assembly lube.
So there is always an alternative.

Mike

Bryan,

Good question!!

I will post to JohnZ and ask if he know's who make's EOS for GM??

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111776&page=2

pdq67

Last time I asked a counter guy at the local GM dealership about EOS, he was lost. Never heard of it. They don't stock it as is. I guess it's not a big loss to me, since I've never used it. Just a good coat of synthetic cam lube, precise tolerances, good oil pressure, and some luck. ;) (Now I'm gonna go find some wood to knock on. I'm surrounded by chipboard. :rolleyes: :D )

Tis true, I heard this was coming the last time I ordered it.
Actually what I was told is it being replaced by something called EP-Booster which is marketed as an additive.
This probably means it does not have much if any Zinc & Phosphorus in it :(

I have a couple of cases of the EOS left but after it is gone I will probably just go to the Crane or Comp stuff.
Not a big deal anymore as both Crane & Comp have break-in lubes now reportedly with the ZDDP additive package

It's not just the cam install thats the only problem with the EOS going by by because the cam mfg's supply the cam lube and you can also use the crane cam/lifter breakin lube in the blk bottle in the crankcase for cam breakin.

The other problem is some guys were running the GM EOS in todays oils that dont have enough ZDDP to protect their flat tappet cams and thats presents another issues for them.

They were runing approx .5-.6oz of GM EOS per qt of oil to get the appropriate amount of ZDDP protection.

But i would think adding Cranes Cam/Lifter breakin lube to the crankcase oil thats in the blk plastic bottle should do just fine for that application too.

Now someone has to find out what proper amount of the CraneCam/Lifter breakin lube is required per qt of oil to protect a flat tappet cam which may be considerably less then the breakin requirement & the complete bottle may be too much under normal use.

I was thinking of going the EOS in the oil route too for my flat tappet cam .

This is becasue i am currently running the Diesel 15-40 oil with the older CI ratring with plenty of ZDDP but i have recently read a lot of testing info from nascar & Joe Gibbs racing and aonther oil testing study done that all stated an issue they found with the diesel oils when it comes to protecting flat tappet cams.

And the issue is that all the diesel oils have elevated levels of detrgents in the oils to help keep the dirty running diesel motors cleaner which strips the ZDDP additives rigt off the cam & lifters which is the issue.

I only had approx 2k miles on mmy motor when i switched to the diesel oil with highr detrgent lvl's and that oil turned blk in approx 200 miles when the std pass car oil stayed almost clean/clear looking until i would change it .

So that showed me that the Diesel oils did in fact have a lot higher lvl of cleaning power to find & strip clean all that contamination from in the motor that only had 2k miles on. Thats even with doing mult oil changes in the 1st 2k miles of the motors life with pass car oil prior to using the diesel oil.

When the ZDDP was in the std pass car oils yrs back those oils had less detergents in them becasue the gasoline engines ran cleaner & didnt require it.

Having less detrgent in the std motor oil enabled the ZDDP additive to slowly over time adhear/accumilate on the cam lobes/lifter surfaces faces to protect the cam/lifters in SHORT times of low or non existant oil protection like idling low with auto trans in traffic when there isnt much oil being thrown off the crank for additional oiling to help lube the cam/lifters or for what ever the reason.

But from what i have been reading in mult places from unconnected sources the diesel oils strip the ZDDP protecton away so it's only in the fresh oil thats inbetween the cam lobes/lifters. But unfortunately in that case the ZDDP additive is no longer built up in a thin layer of protection for thoses short times of marginal oiling of cam/lifters like idling in traffic and thats why i want to switch to adding EOS to the motor oil too.

By adding the EOS to the oil my self i know for sure i will have enough of the correct ZDDP protection for the flat tappet cam in my motor. Then if the cam just happened to go south someday it wont be from lack of ZDDP potection in the oil and i wont say DANG i should have run the EOS in my oil to ensure i had the appropriate lvl of ZDDP protection,it will be too late at that point.

Since i have man trans i also keep the idle a little higher then i normally would in hopes of possibly throwing a little more oil off the crank onto the cam while at idle to aid in cam oiling but who really knows if thats helping much but i hope it does.

Scott

I have to get a 12 bolt drain plug as soona s I come up with a p/n for the noobies at the parts counter , I'll get some EOS as well.

Blue or red bottles of the STP oil additive have zinc...

But for how long??

pdq67

Scott, Did you see how much detergent is in GM EOS? It's a lot. Also some of the synthetics such as some Royal Purple, Amsoil, and Mobil have as much or more detergent as the diesel oils. Per the chart at www.lnengineering.com (http://www.lnengineering.com).

Von,yes i did and was also concerned about the same issue the supposed experts are saying about the Diesel oils with too much detrgent,GEE this oil stuff is begining to be a real PIA.

But would using .5 oz of EOS per qt of oil really be too much detergent when mixed with almost 6qts oil when using the lrg PF35 AC filter,i dont know do you or or anyone else know? We are talking about PPM(parts per million) here which is a very small amount/measurment but again i am not sure,any chemist arround to chime in on this one?

In that case for me it's lloking like it's coming down to the STP in the red bottle Chris reffered to and or possibly the crane Cam/Lifter breakin lube if that didnt have too much detergent in it too.

Scott

As of 8:30 central time on 7/5/07, it is still available as p/n 1052367. GM also has a cam and lifter lube #12345501 since we're on the subject.

Von,yes i did and was also concerned about the same issue the supposed experts are saying about the Diesel oils with too much detrgent,GEE this oil stuff is begining to be a real PIA.

But would using .5 oz of EOS per qt of oil really be too much detergent when mixed with almost 6qts oil when using the lrg PF35 AC filter,i dont know do you or or anyone else know? We are talking about PPM(parts per million) here which is a very small amount/measurment but again i am not sure,any chemist arround to chime in on this one?

In that case for me it's lloking like it's coming down to the STP in the red bottle Chris reffered to and or possibly the crane Cam/Lifter breakin lube if that didnt have too much detergent in it too.

Scott
I don't know if that's too much detergent or not for a gas engine but I stocked up on CI-4 Delo 400 so I'm going to take the chance it doesn't have too much. I tried to find STP in the red bottle last week and of 4 different chain stores that carry STP in the blue bottle, none had the red bottle.

Von,yes i did and was also concerned about the same issue the supposed experts are saying about the Diesel oils with too much detrgent,GEE this oil stuff is begining to be a real PIA.

But would using .5 oz of EOS per qt of oil really be too much detergent when mixed with almost 6qts oil when using the lrg PF35 AC filter,i dont know do you or or anyone else know? We are talking about PPM(parts per million) here which is a very small amount/measurment but again i am not sure,any chemist arround to chime in on this one?

In that case for me it's lloking like it's coming down to the STP in the red bottle Chris reffered to and or possibly the crane Cam/Lifter breakin lube if that didnt have too much detergent in it too.

Scott

Or you could use Valvoline's racing oil which is labeled for off-road use only. It's a dino oil that has the zinc you want (which is why it's labeled as off-road).

Von here is the info from some oil/gm eos testing i think many have already seen done by blackstone/1/07

Its the 2nd EOS listed below thats advertised as Assembly Lube on the bottle thats sold these days under pt#1052357 that looks to be best with much lower detergent lvls. I have seen pics of the newer pt#1052357 GM EOS bottle and it states EOS ASSEMBLY LUBE which hopefully is the 2nd bottle listed below with a lot less detrgent

Its the 1st one listed that i think your reffering to which i believe was the older GM EOS that was sold yrs back meant strictly for cam /lifter breakin only .

Scott
================================================== =====

key= PH/Zn/detergent

GM Cam Lifter Prelube 5710 5876 29004
EOS Assembly Lube 5762 6221 8265

the eos was a great bang for the buck since it comes in a 16oz bottle compared to 8oz for the crane stuff. Way to ruin a good thing gm.

I just called my Chevy parts man. He has 12 bottles on the shelf and I told him to set out 6 for me.

just called GM Part # 1052367 is changed to 992869 and 12345501 is changed to 992704

Mike,i just tried all the pt#s inc the new ones they just gave you.

The old pt#'s come up as being active showing correct items being EOS or assembly lubrcant but the supposed new #'s they just gave you show NADA in any of the 4-5 gm sites i normally trade with.

Maybe they havent updated GM/AC delco's systems yet to reflect these supposed new pt#'s or they are just plain incorrect.

Scott

I don't know if that's too much detergent or not for a gas engine but I stocked up on CI-4 Delo 400 so I'm going to take the chance it doesn't have too much. I tried to find STP in the red bottle last week and of 4 different chain stores that carry STP in the blue bottle, none had the red bottle.

I don't know how accurate the statement below are but:

a marine engine forum had this discussion and it was said that the 'old fashon' can of STP (don't know if that considered the blue or red) has enough of the stuff we need per oil change (5-6 qts).

Therefore my conclusion would be to buy the store brand non-detergent motor oil with a can of STP. Hows that sound???...anyone???

Do most of us really need any detergents at all in limited use classics that probably get more oil changes per mile and/or hours than regular driven commuter vehicles?

Mike,i just tried all the pt#s inc the new ones they just gave you.

The old pt#'s come up as being active showing correct items being EOS or assembly lubrcant but the supposed new #'s they just gave you show NADA in any of the 4-5 gm sites i normally trade with.

Maybe they havent updated GM/AC delco's systems yet to reflect these supposed new pt#'s or they are just plain incorrect.

Scott
=
I do not know of any new part number for the EOS & as I posted I was informed it would not be available but had been replaced by some new crap
Only place I have found mention of the new stuff is below.

Notice the new stuff is called an additive
This is probably not good as the reason GM changed the wording from additive to assembly lube was to get around the EPA rules

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=1052367 (http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=1052367)


http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=ep-booster (http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=ep-booster)

Or you could use Valvoline's racing oil which is labeled for off-road use only. It's a dino oil that has the zinc you want (which is why it's labeled as off-road).

For a simple minded guy like myself, is this the easiest way to go?

This oil stuff is driving me crazy. Diesel oil is good...no wait, too much detergent...they took all the zinc out of regular oil, don't use it...if you add EOS to regular oil you'll be fine, wait they aren't going to make it anymore.:confused:

I am impressed and appreciate all the effort some of you guys are putting into researching this topic, but what is the simple answer. If someone wants to go into the store and buy oil that's good for flat tappet cams, is racing oil the easiest way to go?

ROB,here is the test info for the STP oil additive .(see below for details)

I personally dont like to use the blue stp with the viscosity improvers to thicken it in new or rblt motors with tight clearances so i would rec using the red bottle stp if your going that route.

But keep in mind this test was done 11/05 so who really knows what the current ZDDP lvl is in the stp sold today. It may have to also meet the new EPA/Gov emmissions regs which madates it be reduced in all motor oils inc diesel oil.

Scott


key= Ph/Zn/Detrgent

STP Blue 1704 2436 88
STP Red 2115 3932 901

For a simple minded guy like myself, is this the easiest way to go?

This oil stuff is driving me crazy. Diesel oil is good...no wait, too much detergent...they took all the zinc out of regular oil, don't use it...if you add EOS to regular oil you'll be fine, wait they aren't going to make it anymore.:confused:

I am impressed and appreciate all the effort some of you guys are putting into researching this topic, but what is the simple answer. If someone wants to go into the store and buy oil that's good for flat tappet cams, is racing oil the easiest way to go?
-
In my opinion mixing oils & oil additives long term is not a real good plan
You have no idea of the additive package you are fooling with.
So,,,,
Simple easy almost "dummy proof" :D
For non synthetic oils,,,
Use Brad Penn
Use Joe Gibbs
Use Valvoline Race oil
Use early Diesel
For break-in add the Crane or Comp break-in lube

The Diesel doesn't seem to hurt a damn thing
Works just fine in 1,000,000 mile fleet trucks,, diesel, gas & propane
Has worked for a zillion years in farm equipment, stationary engines, trucks, cars, hell probably even lawn mowers for all I know.
Ask any trucking company what they use in their stuff.

I tend to think some of this stuff gets a bit over-analyzed ;)

-
In my opinion mixing oils & oil additives long term is not a real good plan
You have no idea of the additive package you are fooling with.
So,,,,
Simple easy almost "dummy proof" :D
For non synthetic oils,,,
Use Brad Penn
Use Joe Gibbs
Use Valvoline Race oil
Use early Diesel

The Diesel doesn't seem to hurt a damn thing
Works just fine in 1,000,000 mile fleet trucks,, diesel, gas & propane
Has worked for a zillion years in farm equipment, stationary engines, trucks, cars, hell probably even lawn mowers for all I know.
Ask any trucking company what they use in their stuff.

I tend to think some of this stuff gets a bit over-analyzed ;)
That's why I stocked up on enough CI-4 Delo 400 to get me through the next year for both Chevelles, lawn tractor, and emergency generator.

Does this mean the three bottles of EOS siting on my workbench are worth $100 each on ebay? :)

Scott

I don't know if they are the same numbers in the USA but I just bought a case of each with those new numbers on the box 6.15 per bottle.I was talking to GM canada

To be clear, the only Valvoline Racing oil you want is the stuff marked as OFF ROAD ONLY. Their typical VR-1 racing oil is a glorified modern oil. You'll know the OFF ROAD stuff when you see it because it doesn't have the oil rating donut on the label. I found the good stuff at my local NAPA store. Again, to be clear, Valvoline does sell two different kinds of racing oil, make sure you get the right one!

FYI, GM Canada usually has different part #'s for chemicals and additives than GM America.......it's still 1052367 here, but we actually haven't gotten a shipment in in a while now(we're out....). Dunno who's fault that is.

Has anyone ever tried using AeroShell 15w50 or x/c phillips 20w50 oils ?

Dont kill the mesenger but i just had to pass this 2nd hand story along for what its wirth i dont know.

Note:Also see below this diesel bus oil info for solid oil test result info that would make me not be so quick to trust the Valvoline NSL or Brad Penn 20w-50 racing oils to protect my flat tappet cam from solid lab testing,not hearsay but 1st onto the diesel oil story to pass along.

A casusl aquantance of mine told me a realtive if his that had been woking as a diesel mechanic for 25yrs for a bus garage said they were having valvtrain wear/actuall breakage issues shortly after they started using the refomulated diesel oils with CJ rating but unfortunately he couldnt remember what oil they switched too.

Anyway it wasnt just 1 or 2 buses that had issues,i was like 14-1/3 of their fleet supposedly all the sudden started having valvetrain wear or breakage issues like they had never seen or experienced before in the 25 yrs he had been wokrking on the diesel buses.

They supposedly got the bus/motor mfg involved and after testing etc they deduced it was the reduction in ZDDP additives in the new reformulated diesel oil that was causing the issue.

I guess if thats true is shows the older CI rated diesel oil must have been running the edge of being just adequtae enough to protect the diesel motors valve train but after the zddp was reduced some things started to go south soon after that and thats all i was told or know.

Just more food for thought.
================================================== ========
As for the Brad Pen oil and Valvoline oils both tested in 2007 at the Blackstone lab. They didnt fair so hot when it came to having adequate lvls of ZDDP to protect our flat tappet cams esp if your running elevated spring prssures.(See below for details)

According to a detailed oil testing report i read this is the recommended lvl's of ZDDP to run to protect a flat tappet cam on avg:

0.12% Zn and P level (ZDP, a.k.a. ZDDP)

Example of conversion % = PPM (0.12-0.14% = 1200-1400 ppm ) for compairison purposes below.

Niether the Valvoline NSL/not street legal or the Brad Penn oils met that mnimum 0.12% requrement for ZDDP flat tappet cam protection when the latest formulations of those oils were tested by BLACKSTONE in 1st 1/4 2007.(see directly below for the test results)

KEY= PPM for Ph/Zn/Detergent

Penn Grade 1 Racing 20w50 664/852/2094

Valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 835/976/819

================================================== =======

It seems for now i will try to get the GM EOS assembly lube with the less detrgent in it or the STP in the red bottle without the thick viscosity improvers my fresh motor doesnt need to mix with std motor oil because i cant trust the valvoline or Brad penn oil either after the sests i have been reading. I also recently read from 3-4 good sources ( inc NASCAR & Joe gibbs engine oil testing) that the hi detregents in the diesel oils causes issues with flat tappet cams because it strips the zddp additives from the cam lobes & lifters which i tend to believe is true . Porche also was noted in this same oil report to not recommend the use of oil with hi detergent lvl's for the same reason.

So for now i will stock up son ome GM EOS Assembly lube with the lesser detergent lvl or some STP in the red bottle and mix it into my engine oil as recommended,.5-.6 oz per qt of oil for GM EOS Assembly lube and whatever STP rec per qt of oil for their additive in the red bottle if the STP still has enough ZDDP in it to do the job I say this because the last test result i saw on it was done in 2005 & it could have easily changed since then and likely has like evrthing else has when it comes to oil & fuel.

Hopefully some oil mfg/s will see the need for a reformulated oil in approx 6 different grades(30/40/50/10-30/10-40/20-50) with the proper ZDDP lvls for our classic cars with flat tappet cam'd motors that they can get by gov/epa regs for our limited use classic cruiser street machines that are not daily drivers.

Scott

To be clear, the only Valvoline Racing oil you want is the stuff marked as OFF ROAD ONLY. Their typical VR-1 racing oil is a glorified modern oil. You'll know the OFF ROAD stuff when you see it because it doesn't have the oil rating donut on the label. I found the good stuff at my local NAPA store. Again, to be clear, Valvoline does sell two different kinds of racing oil, make sure you get the right one!

Checker is now selling Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil for $3.29 a quart. It states on the container "New ashless anti-wear additives combined with ZDDP provide ultimate wear protection". The thing is, this oil doesn't state it isn't street legal, yet it seems to have the magic words ZDDP.

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=50

I assume this is the oil you are talking about, which of course, no one around here carries on the shelf..This one states "Contains increased amounts of zinc for extra engine protection".

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=94

I wonder what the difference really is when comparing the zinc in these two oils..

Does anyone know what store chain carries STP in the red bottle? I checked the STP website to see where it (STP) is available and went to some of them but no luck yet. So far I've struck out at Advance Auto, Autozone, Family Dollar, and Meijer. They all have STP in the blue bottle but no red. Only a few left to check, including Target and WalMart.

When the oil doesnt state not street legal you can bet it has the newly mandated for 2007 reduced lvl of ZDDP in it due to new gov/epa regs. Re-read my above post on the valvaline NSL racing oil that supposedly has enough ZDDP in it to protect our flat tappet cams,NOT!!!!!

Also,now that i am thinking more about it i recall that someone in this site stated they thought or read the STP in the red bottle was being discontinued and maybe thats why you can find it in like 5-6 stores that would usually handle it. Try sending an email to the people at STP to find out for sure if the stpin red bottle is gone. But if its not ask what lvls of ZDDP it has in it today.

Thats the way to do it and to find things out and we shouldnt leave it all up to a couple people to keep up on this stuff,it's get daunting at times to say the least esp when you get comflicting info from different people at the same oil mfg. You know its just like when you talk to 2 diff people on a cam tech line for cam advice on the same setup,you get 2 totally dif suggestions and usually both are out to lunch in my experience with them so why should the oil mfg tech line/email service help be any diffferent?

Scott

Checker is now selling Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil for $3.29 a quart. It states on the container "New ashless anti-wear additives combined with ZDDP provide ultimate wear protection". The thing is, this oil doesn't state it isn't street legal, yet it seems to have the magic words ZDDP.

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=50

I assume this is the oil you are talking about, which of course, no one around here carries on the shelf..This one states "Contains increased amounts of zinc for extra engine protection".

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=94

I wonder what the difference really is when comparing the zinc in these two oils..

The second one is the one you want.

I emailed STP about availability of the red bottles and where, also asked the level of zinc and phosphate. Awaiting an answer.

is Shell rotella T 15w40 any good and what about castrol GTX deisel 15w40. both say anti friction additives added

WalMart has both red and blue bottles of STP, at least in my area. I've thought about trying that stuff too, but it seems kinda thick! The thing that I wonder about is that it says on teh bottle to use a WHOLE bottle; it's not like EOS where you use a little bit per quart of oil.

Looks like I'll be using the conventional Valvoline racing oil. Maybe it'd be smart to get to Napa and stock up before something changes the next time the wind switches directions :p . IIRC, they have it in 10W30 too, so that's a plus.

Valvoline's conventional racing oils containes .14% zinc , which from what I have read should be plenty zinc.
the VR1 is a street friendly oil and has a lower content of zinc.

Hell, how's that old line go in the old flick "Apocolypse Now"??

"Ah, there's nothing like the smell of burning NAPLAM in the morning!!"

Just like the smell of good old EOS!!

If the oil you are using doesn't smell like EOS OR 90w140 gear lube, the high pressure lubricants aren't in it!!

And fwiw, they have lightened up on the gear lubes too!

pdq67

If all these companys keep getting the EPA crap, crammed down thier throats. Eventually, there wont be any oil suitable enough for a camshaft and lifter to even survive in for long life. Everyone will have no choice but to go with a roller cam and lifters.

This whole thing just gives me a headache. I agree with an earlier statement. This is certainly a PIA.:sad:

Dealer in Greenville, OH had cases of EOS last week ... bought a couple pints for my new motor.
Neal

I stopped by my Chevy parts dept after work yesterday and picked up 6 bottles. They had 12 in stock.

Guys,take another look at this and then compair it the OLD OUTDATED 2003-4 TEST INFO(pasted lower/below Blackstones oil testing in 2007 thats directly below) VALVOLINE HAD ON THEIR WEBSITE FOR THE NSL 20W-50 RACING OIL,ACCORDING TO RECENT 2007 BLACK STONE TESTING THE ZDDP LVL IS LESS THEN ADVERTISED FOR THE VALVOLINE NSL 20-50 FROM 3-4 YRS AGO DATA AND ACCORDING TO THE BLACSTONE TESTS THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ZDDP TO PROPERLY PROTECT FLAT TAPPET CAMS ESP WITH ELEVATED SPRING PRESSURE.

How can you you guys say the valvoline NSL 20-50 racing has the required ZDDP when it clearly didnt have enough in recent 2007 testing done by a qualified/certified lab vs the 3-4 yr old tests result data for the Valvoline oil STILL ACTIVELY POSTED on Valvolines web site?

Valvoline has likley had many questions concerning this issue and dont you think if they really cared about the hi perf community they would have updated the ZDDP data for the racing oil by now? They either dont care or the oil has less zddp then advertised and they are not so quick to update the data for that reason,who knows,Blackstone does.

Again,According to the detailed oil testing report i read (listed idrectly below) is the MINIMUM RECOMMENDED LVL of ZDDP to run to protect a flat tappet cam on avg and the Valvoline NSL 20-50 comes up well short of that ,period.

0.12% Zn and P level (ZDP, a.k.a. ZDDP)

Example of conversion % = PPM (0.12-0.14% = 1200-1400 ppm ) for compairison purposes below.

The rec lvl of zddp for flat tappet cams is 1200-1400ppm and the valvoline nsl 20-50 tested in 2007 by Blackstone was far less(BELOW REC ZDDP LVL FOR FLAT TAPPET CAMS) at 835-976ppm,thats what i am trying to get accross here. Those lower zddp lvl's look like they conform to the new 2007 regs for cj diesel oil of less then 1,000 ppm zddp and thats right where the thoses lvls are in the nsl valvoline 20w-50.

Check out the Blackstone 2007 tests VS the 3-4 yr old test data from valvolines website pasted below. The 2003-2004 dates for the valvoline oil test is listed at the bottom of the Valvoline oil report/data. I got the valvoline ZDDP/oil test data from clicking the PRODUCT INFO tab(on left) when you have the Valvoline NSL 20W-50 oil opened up in the valvoline site using the 2nd of 2 links in the post above mine.

================================================== ========
BLACKSTONES RECENT 2007 TEST RESULTS

Niether the Valvoline NSL/not street legal or the Brad Penn oils met that mnimum 0.12% requrement for ZDDP flat tappet cam protection when the latest formulations of those oils were tested by BLACKSTONE in 1st 1/4 2007.(see directly below for the test results)

KEY= PPM for Ph/Zn/Detergent

Valvoline VR-1 NSL 20w50 835/976/819

Penn Grade 1 Racing 20w50 664/852/2094

================================================== ======

VALVOLINES 2004 OUTDATED TEST RESULTS/A LOT CAN CHANGE IN 3-4 YRS.

Typical Properties

20W-50

Zn wt%
0.12

P wt%
0.12

Note: The Valvoline NOT STREET LEGAL RACING MOTOR OILS are recommended for racetrack applications only.
This information only applies to products manufactured in the following location(s): USA, Canada.
Effective Date:
9-2-04
7-8-03

Everyone, just go roller!!!!

Our racing oils all have .14% levels of Zinc.
To: VWEBMAIL@Ashland
cc:

Subject: Site feedback
this is from ashland/valvoline march 2007.

don't get this confusied with VR1 .

This is straight from ashland oil.

most circle track/last model, and muscle car owners guys i know use this oil.

Valvoline web-
thier true racing oils =
Contains increased amounts of zinc for extra engine protection

VR1 oil=
New ashless anti-wear additives combined with ZDDP provide ultimate wear protection

not to hard to figure out which has more zinc, as the first clearly states INCREADED AMOUNTS
and the VR1 states new anti wear w/ zinc/zddp but says nothing about more zinc just "some" or however you read it.

and at 2+ dollars a quart the "true" racing oil is a deal to me, oil change around 30 bucks dang hurt me.

Brett,no disrespect but i dont agree with you on this one. I have spent alot of time researching this oil situation and according to Blackstone labs after testing mult samples the NSL Valvoline 20-50 racing oil in 2007 they found it had lower ZDDP lvl's then advertised in their product data sheet online thats 3-4yrs old as seen in date of last test/update at the botom of the info.

The NSL /NOT STREET LEAGAL Valvoline 20w-50 Racing oil is supposed to be VALVOLINE'S TRUE RACING OIL becasue it supposed have too much ZDDP for LEAGAL street use which is the oil that was tested by Blackstone labs in 2007. After testing that oil was found to have less then the stated .14% ZDDP that their website states its supposed to have. Again,this is not the std pass car VR1 20-50 oil,i know the difference and i am reffering to the correct TURE RACING OIL.

The Blackstone lab that did the test in 2007 was so surprised they got such a low ZDDP result for VALVOLINE'S TRUE NSL 20-50 RQACING OIL they got another fresh qt of NSL Valvoline 20-50 racing oil from another source in hopes it would be from another lot & test higher,. But unfortunately that sample also tested approx the same as the 1st qt which was much lower then it was supposed to be according to the info posted in the valvoline site thats dateD 2003-2004.

I also bet that when someone emails valvoline (or any oil mfg) the person that ans that email went to the same product data sheet and said see it has .14% ZDDP and just passed that info along back to you and did not test it.

Blackstone labs are qualified/certified to do this testing and are impartial. Since the 1st qt of oil tested so low for ZDDP Blackstone labs went out of their way to get a 2nd sample of the same oil from another source and that sample also tested much lower then it was supposed to for ZDDP just like the 1st one did.

I believe Balckstone did the testing correctly and i also believe when anyone emails an oil mfg to ask what the ZDDP lvl is in their oil they look it up in the product data or MSDS sheets,they dont get a fresh sample to test it for you but Blackstone did it 2x and the Valvoline NSL/NOT STREET LEGAL RACING OIL DOESNT MEET THE .14%,IT FALLS WAY SHORT(reffer to my above post again to see the #'s),enough said.

Scott

My local GM dealership had 12 pints of EOS, I bought 4 of them.

I also found the STP "blue bottle" oil treatment at Farm and Fleet for $1.79/15oz. It states on the bottle that it has "More Anti-Wear* agents than other leading brands (*ZDDP anti wear agents)"

Does this mean it contains enough ZDDP? Is this a marketing scam where STP used "buzz words"? Who knows.

I figure between the EOS and the STP additive I have as good of an arsenal as possible. I think I'll be using SAE 30 non-detergent with some EOS added.

Just purchased today from the local Napa store 1/2 case of Valoline 10-30 racing oil, Not for Street Use, $5.99 a quart.
Chev dealer out of EOS. Has 2 cases comming first of next week. Normally sells about one case a week. Said he can't figure out why the sales has increased in the last few months.

Scott ,
I do respect all of your research and i wish i could call 'ya on this one, but I will take blackstones word & yours.
Just put my glasses on and should put $20 instead of $30 on my last post for oil change.
anyways are we sure that the VR1 oil is not getting mixed up in these results as some results posted in the past have refuired to VR1 and even a different wording of "VR1 racing oil"{valvolines} and no word of the convenitional/ syn. racing oils.
I just know that what they have now[conven./syn. racing oil] does seem to work in f/t V8 engines.
Many of my buddies have aways used val.racing oils & still do and now it has been reformulated to which I "beleive is compareabe" to the original V.racing oil we/was used since the '70s and before.
Pan/shovelheads ie.. which have roller cam followers and many have solid lifters as mine do still need zinc for various areas of metal contact and many of my buddies and I use valvolines new true racing oils and our old twins and still look great when cams are changed , cases split or jugs come off and metal wear has been no issue but these arn't our beloved V8's either.
If this oil is below the recomened level which it does appear I will use cranes additive or simmilar in my 396 as my head are done and a new cam is going in too.
.

I think if i get some time in a month or so i wll try to contact Balckstone labs to see how much they charge to test fr ZDDP and have them test the valvoline NSL 10-3 & 20w-50 racing oil and others too of its not too exspensive for the testing so i can get the real poop on what the current lvl of ZDDP really is in the oils that supposedly have enough of it of it to protect our flat tappet cams. I would like to also test the Valvoline R1 20-50 racing oil thats street leagal,Brad Penn 20-50 racing oil,maybe castrol 10-40 & 15-40 truck & SUV conventional & syn blend oil (not castrol diesel oil),castrol 20-50 convertional & syn blend,Chevron Delo 15-40 diesel oil,etc.

Scott

Again,this is not the std pass car VR1 20-50 oil,i know the difference and i am reffering to the correct TURE RACING OIL.


You mean this one, right SWHEATON?

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?Product=94

I'm glad you post the stuff you do, but then on the other hand it's aggravating. Once something seems to look alright, it falls apart. What next? Since Rotella is now worthless, more or less, and the Valvoline Racing Oil above is not the one to use according to your info....? I guess it's back to Castrol w/ a bottle of STP for me then...Too bad there isn't a tearing hair out smiley! I am REALLY surprised that no one sells or markets an oil additive designed and marketed specifically for classic car owners.

Here is the Bunny with the pancakes on his head!!!!!

Walter,thats funny(LOL!!)

Buzzbomb,yes you have the right oil.

I agree,its a real pia but from what i have read the problem is the EPA/Gov Emmissons regs are mandating the ZDDP lvls be reduced in the motor oils becasue it can supposedly clog cat canverters over time which with cause obvious emmissions issues.

Maybe someone could mfg oils specifically for our classic car flat tappet cam'd motors with plenty of ZDDP if there werent any other emmissions issues with it other then it clogging cats over time which our cars dont have.

Yes guess for now i will be going the GM EOS route with the lower deteregnt lvl or the red bottle of STP that doesnt have the viscosity improver/thickner in it (Like the Blue bottle STP has)that i dont feel is good for new or rblt motors with nice fresh tight clearances.

When i get some time later this summe i am going to investigat the cost of testing oil for ZDDP and if its not too much i am going to get some tested to get the real story 1st hand.

Maybe us flat tappet cam users could band together/pool some $ and then choose like 10-15 of the most popular oils to be tested. This is so collectively it would cost less and all of us could get real time known good ZDDP data on the oils that supposedly have enough ZDDP to see if in fact they really do or dont.

Then we could take the oil that dont make the grade as advertised by oil mfg and tell them we are going to report them to the Better Buisness Burough (SP?)and our local Congressmen for false advertising. Maybe that will get them to either update their product datat to reflect the true ZDDP lvl in their product/s or it will move them to correct/increase the ZDDP lvl's in the oil that comes up short after testing to the lvlv's it's advertised to have in the 1st place.

Scott

Guys,

We all know that eventually we will all have to go roller.

The envinmentalist "wackos", as El Rushbo puts it, have taken things too far, and we have not stood up for what is sensible epa regulations and legislation. So in a sense, we have to adapt as we are being forced to, and go roller. Those needless rollers should do the trick. ????

I have a solid ft, installed in my truck less than a year ago, not cool thinking about changing it all out, after it runs so strong, and not broke.

So you clamor about "reduced levels of ZDDP" but do you know how much is actually required? I dont know but some of the engineers here may. Just because some oil had 1800ppm doesnt mean the engine needed that much. I appreciate your research on the oils, but check out what is needed to protect internal engine parts from extreme wear... as I think most people here are going overboard for nothing. It's not like everyone here runs flat tappets with 250Lbs+ of seat preassure on a flat tappet.

Also, Elgin and others sell an EOS or break in lube in a bottle.

Since this new lower level of ZDDP in oils has taken place just recently for the most part, who's to know what level is the minimum for what spring pressure, etc.? I do know this though, Chevy V8's have a relatively small dia lifter and big blocks with a 1.7 rocker ratio cause even more concentrated loads on lobes and lifters. Wiped cam lobes and/or lifters are expensive and a major PITA, then there's the issue of metal residue spread throughout the engine and oil passages. If anyone wants to throw caution to the wind and not be concerned about their choice of oil, that's their choice. Those of us that ARE concerned may be able to find out things that will benefit us all with flat tappet cams. IMO this subject should be pursued and the more we learn the better. Why roll the dice?

Anybody also run half of a half pint of pure 100 percent "Soy Bio-Diesel" on top of a fresh oil change??

The stuff has been proven to contain esters that have great lubricity properties! Like enough to increase the eff. of a regular engine up to 3 percent!!

I gotta sneaking suspicion that's what ROIL contains that they want $25/quart OR MORE for!!!

pdq67

Hi Von,i have been trying to research this ZDDP issue as time allows.

But untill i get time to research the cost for some oil testing and actially have it done i'm going to use some EOS Assembly lube in my oil that has a lot less detregent in it then the old GM EOS that was advertised/called EOS CAM & Lifter lube.

Also,according to mult sorces inc NASCAR additional detergent lvls like the diesel oils have strips/cleans the ZDDP right off the cam lobes which they found can lead to cam failure esp with elevated spring pressures. Thats why Joe Gibbs racing designed oil with plenty of ZDDP and less detergent for their racing motors which we can buy but its very exspensive.

Scott

Scott

Any word from STP on the red bottle deal? Where it can be purchased.

Scott

Any word from STP on the red bottle deal? Where it can be purchased.
No word from STP yet but I'm betting it's been discontinued. Checked Walmart yesterday. None there either. Blue bottles there though. About the only possibilities left to check here are Target and KMart.

Can we use rotella or is that off the list also because they don't have Joe Gibbs oil in this part of the country unless its called something else here

So I was at WalMart today, and the STP red is GONE.

I was looking at oil, and found a 15W-40 "Super Heavy Duty" CI Diesel Oil. IIRC, CI is the rating we are looking for, right? The brand of the oil....MOTORCRAFT! Does anyone know where to find the listings for oil like SWHEATON posts? I'm curious to see if this oil is listed, and just what it contains when it comes to the good stuff. I don't care if it's a Ford product or not- if it works it works.

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

Good info on the ratings, about 1/3 down

But seriously, we go roller, and it is a non issue....

They still sell the eos here.
https://www.partszoneonline.com/productList.php

I know roller cams are doing well in production cars but i have seen a fair amount of roller cam & lifter failures here in team chevelle over the past yr so there are still some issues there too. I dont know if its product issues or just that our 30-40 yr old sbc/bbc werent designed for them so if the roller cams are not retrofitted /installed correctly into our older motors that creates failures,who knows,i sure dont.

I was digging arround in my garage the other day and found a case of valvoline 20w-50 pass car oil(not racing oil) buried which i bought approx 5yrs ago. I bet the ZDDP lvl was still fine in the oil that was mfg 5 yrs ago before they really started cranking the screws to it.

I think its rated SJ or SM,do you guys think it would have plenty of ZDDP being mfg approx 5 yrs ago? I think it would but i have to admint i was not as aware of all these issues with ZDDP over 5 yrs ago so i was not aware of what lvl's of ZDDP were the pass car motors oils at that time,do any of you guys happen to know what what the ZDDP lvl/s were 5 yrs ago?

Scott

Additional and interesting reading: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

I wish it was entirely up to date with what we now know though.

Rich,thats where i got some of my oil info from,note that some of the oil test data is recent like 3/07,some is from late 06,and some is older then that so keep an eye out for that.

Scott

I picked up the last two bottles of EOS a local dealership had over my lunchtime. Older parts guy said he's been selling it since the '70s and can't for the life of him figure out why they discontinued it.

GM has always baffled me. On the one hand they seem to support the old car hobby with crate motors, etc. and on the other they leave us hanging by discontinuing EOS. It states right on the label it is not to be used as an oil supplement, doesn't that keep them safe? Couldn't they also label it as not for use with catalytic converters?

Somebody's going to have to come up with an oil or a supplement that will help us keep our old stuff running. I've got extra need since our daily drivers are from 1985 and 1993 and, I'm making a strong guess, will need ZDDP to continue to survive. I change the oil in these two about 4 times a year so I'll go through that EOS pretty quick let alone what I may need for my classics. I've been running Mobil 1 in the Chevelle and pickup for a few years now but I'm switching back to Valvoline Racing NSL oil since I'm tired of the added synthetic oil leaks issue and it looks like Mobil 1 doesn't have any more ZDDP than the Valvoline so I'll be adding something in anyway and the Valvoline is somewhat cheaper.

I've run Valvoline semi-synthetic in my MR2 since the oil first became available and I attribute much of it's 270,000 longevity to that oil (and frequent oil changes) so it's hard to realize that same oil would cause this engine's premature failure now unless I add some zinc into the mix.

Have you checked with SEMA or some of the musclecar magazines (Musclecar Enthusiast, whatever the one published by Hemmings is called, etc.) about this issue and see if they can help shed some light? Isn't there a SEMA-like national organization which lobbies for old car hobby issues?

FYI: I sent an e-mail to the editorial office of Musclecar Enthusiast magazine. We'll see what comes of it. I dont' suppose we can expect much from the larger magazines such as Chevy High Performance, Super Chevy or Car Craft/Hot Rod since they probably have large ad revenues from the various oil producers. Might even be the same for ME, I haven't looked through recent copies recently with an eye toward what kinds of ads they have.

I hate to dredge this up again, but in looking at the Blackstone testing of Valvoline racing oil, they list it as "Valvoline VR-1 NSL" with the NSL meaning "not street legal" which we thought meant it was "the good stuff". In their tests it didn't show the hoped-for zinc levels. HOWEVER, Valvoline doesn't label their NSL conventional oils as VR-1. Valvoline VR-1 is their typical motor oil hyped up to be a "better" oil. Their not street legal stuff, which does NOT contain an SAE rating label, is labeled as "Not Street Legal Valvoline Racing" motor oil.

So which did they test, the VR-1 or the NSL oil? There may be a reasonably accessible alternative available to us if we could get some good answers on this. Also, it sure would be useful if a recently produced bottle of STP blue and red were tested so we knew for sure if this is a viable additive since EOS is going away.

Rich ,long story short is 2 things,1st GM doesnt rec using a full pint of EOS for ongoing protection because that too much and that large amount of eos/zddp etc is only needed for cam breakin but only approx 4-5oz of EOS is required to protect the cam when used with todays std pass car oil that lacks the zddp.

2nd is the reason GM is discontinuing EOS from what i understand is the gov forced them too due to the ZDDP pkg fouling/clogging cat converters & other emmissions equipment over time/miles. This causes thoses emmissions items to fail which then alows the fouled exhaust to contaminate the
air/environment.

I stocked up on EOs a few wks back so i am good for yrs to come no matter what they do with dang oil stuff.

scott

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I don't see why GM couldn't label EOS as for non-cat cars or pre-1974 cars (or whenever cats came into general use). Hell, it's already labeled as "for break in only", you'd think that would be good enough. What, exactly, are their own mechanics supposed to use on rebuilt engines? Or are they just supposed to replace the engines as a whole with a new roller cammed crate motor?

There IS still a market for the stuff and a lot of that market is THEIR old stuff.

Decent gasoline is getting harder to find. No one bothered to tell us that GL-5 shouldn't be used in older manual transmissions. No decent reasonably priced motor oils are readily available for our old (and sometimes not so old) iron. I wouldn't mind these changes in regulation, hell, I like a cleaner environment too, but if SOMEONE would be up front about these things and provide some alternatives to those of us who want to enjoy driving an older vehicle. I'm now also fearing for my 1985 and 1993 daily drivers which have been economical and reliable up to this point, but for how much longer?

All I can say is, "thank you, Scott" for keeping these issues updated as best you can. Hopefully some more helpful information will become available soon.

I also found it disturbing that in the Porsche article how many of the niche oil producers who brag of having high levels of ZDDP were "shocked" to be told that their products measured less than what is deemed adequate and that their response was "our oils should have x.xx%". Either their marketing is flat out wrong, the testing process is inaccurate or the manufacturing process is inconsistant, none of which really help us out much!

It's a good plan to have a stockpile of EOS, but did you read in that Porsche article how ZDDP reacts in the presence of other additives? Depending on what other compounds are in the oil you are using, the ZDDP you are adding with the EOS may be dramatically counteracted in part or in whole by the presence of those other compounds. Compounds, I might add, which are increasing in volume in most modern oils to counteract the loss of ZDDP. They seem to get us coming and going!

Rich,yes i did catch that info on some of the componants of the oil can react with the zddp to make it less effective,is this worse then the high detetergent lvl in the diesel oil stripping the ZDDP off the cam/lifters,who the heck knows i dont.

I think & hope adding plenty of EOS to my oil (or red bottle STP for others)will be enough to protect my fairly mild springed hyd flat tappet cam,i guess only time will tell on that one.

I wonder if the full syn oils that have plenty of zddp have the issue with too much detrgent that could strip off some zddp or if some of the componants of the syn oil will attack or deminish the zddp's ability to do its job?

Thats another topic or test for another day.(UMPH!!!!)

Scott

Well, I bought every can of the stuff my local Chevy dealer had. Future cam break-ins for me will have the stuff. Now, to get that stovebolt out and freshened up...

what about an oil with no detergent at all? my motor never even turns oil dark after 3000 miles you can still see through it, why not let what ever little bit of zinc in the oil stick to everything inside don't ever wash it off with detergent? sounds to me like a slight bit of sludge might actually protect our gen 1 motors! use a filter mag and be done with it!

DEREK,the ZDDP that deposited on the cam lobes/lifters is a very thin layer of protection that doesnt stay there forever so it does need replenishment to a point even when running low detergent oils that dont attack or strip it away. Normal wear will do that very nicely if the oil doesnt replenish the ZDDP along the way. But its much more of an issue with hi detergent diesel oils that strip the ZDDP away for you which is something you dont want to happen when running a flat tappet cam esp since they lowered the ZDDP lvl in the diesel oils on 1/2007.

Scott

DEREK,the ZDDP that deposited on the cam lobes/lifters is a very thin layer of protection that doesnt stay there forever so it does need replenishment to a point even when running low detergent oils that dont attack or strip it away. Normal wear will do that very nicely if the oil doesnt replenish the ZDDP along the way. But its much more of an issue with hi detergent diesel oils that strip the ZDDP away for you which is something you dont want to happen when running a flat tappet cam esp since they lowered the ZDDP lvl in the diesel oils on 1/2007.

Scott
I don't understand. Diesel oils with high detergent levels strip away the ZDDP so they're not good for performance engines. Why are these oils good for older diesel engines that require the ZDDP. Wouldn't the high detergent levels in a diesel have the same affect as in a gas engine? I know in a performance engine you're trying to protect the camshaft while in a diesel the ZDDP is needed to protect other components, is that the difference? Seems the high detergent levels would wash away the ZDDP everywhere, not just the cam.

Hank,i read that info in mult places about the high detrgent in the diesel oils stripping the ZDDP off the cam lobes/lifters of flattappet cams from extensive testing NASCAR/JOE GIBBS RACING/PORCHE had done in the recent past,it not something i personally tested but i tend to believe these sources.

scott

Wonder how come some chevelle owners have lost flat tappet cams but yet up until 2006 jeeps used flat tappet cams in there straight (6) engines.

I know many jeep owners and none have run into any problems over the last few years using oils. Could it be that we are using heaver spring pressures ?

i see retro roller cam kits for gen 1 small block chevys now, what would it take to convert to full roller? from what i hear, we still need ZDDP for the friction between the cam and the stopper that keeps your cam from walking or baybe theres a fix for this by now, needle bearing setup or something. maybe someone can list the parts needed for conversion.
special pushrods, special timing chain cover, timing chain, etc.
what specs should i look for in a roller cam to be comparable to, lets say, 230 230 480 480 in a hydrolic flat tappet?

Wonder how come some chevelle owners have lost flat tappet cams but yet up until 2006 jeeps used flat tappet cams in there straight (6) engines.

I know many jeep owners and none have run into any problems over the last few years using oils. Could it be that we are using heaver spring pressures ?


We've had a couple 2000 and newer jeeps with flat cams. Recently installed a long block in one and had the cam go flat in the first 10k miles. Also a friends 05 wrangler had the cam go flat at 30k miles. He was told that there's a service bulletin out for bad cams in the straight jeep sixes.

We've had a couple 2000 and newer jeeps with flat cams. Recently installed a long block in one and had the cam go flat in the first 10k miles. Also a friends 05 wrangler had the cam go flat at 30k miles. He was told that there's a service bulletin out for bad cams in the straight jeep sixes.

OK thanks for the update......good to know

I picked up 10 bottles of EOS today from the local GM dealer so i'm all set for quite sometime or atleast until i go roller. My friend is going back tomorrow and buying the last 13 bottles they had.

I received the info from this area's BG products rep.
He said the BG MOA has the ingredients to fulfill our needs for Zinc, Phosphate and Sulphur. He will be more specific when he has the numbers.

Looks like the alternative to EOS.

Thanks Tim and it looks like it MIGHT be an alternative but dont trust it untill you get the real #'s as he is a salesman and want to make more sales if you get my drift.

I will be curious what the eal 3's are bu i know the GM EOS had whay we need so i am using that.

Also,last i knew the STP in the red bottle was ok to use as a replacement for ZDDP but the test data is over 2yrs old on it so i emailed STP directly and asked them what the current lvl of ZDDP /Zinc & phophorus was in the Red & Blue bottle oil additive products being mfg today which i report back when/if i get a reply

Scott

Here is the responce i got from STP on the red & blue container oil treatment when it comes to the lvl of ZDDP inj both products.

If i read between the lines on this comment the STP rep made in below responce " Both products contain about 4 times the amount of what motor oils once contained " it looks as though both have enough ZDDP to protect our flat tappet cams,is that the impressioin you guy's get from this statement? (See below for full responce from STP)

Scott
================================================== ========

Dear Mr. Wheaton,
Thank you for contacting us about STP Oil Treatment - 4-Cylinder. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

Unfortunately, the amount of ZDDP in both types of oil treatments is proprietary information. However, I can tell you that the red bottle only contains slightly more than the blue bottle. Both products contain about 4 times the amount of what motor oils once contained. I hope this information helps you.
Again, thank you for contacting us.
Patti Copper
Consumer Response Representative
Consumer Services