My Camaro made its first passes last weekend. 3200 lbs, Vortec heads with no porting, 11.16 @ 119.76 with a little wheel spin. Going back saturday to try to do better, made adjustments to the car to get rid of the tire spin....I hope. It was an absolute hoot to drive, love the trans brake and the 5200 RPM launch. 1.62 60 foot and 100 mph at the 1/8 mile. Too much fun. I know it's not a Chevelle, but thought you guys could appreciate it anyway.

Gary

Hell yeah!

What is it, a 350?

Any bottle on it?

What gears?

I'm thinking of lightening the Camino and setting it up for the strip in the future. I'd love to keep a Vortec headed smallblock and see twelves. Just thinking about it. To quote another post, I'm probably just "Dream Racing". ;)

Good job, Gary! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Nice times graemlins/thumbsup.gif , but how dare you post 1/4 miles time withough letting us know the basic combo....
You ought to be disciplined for that. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_111v.gif


Seriously, nice going for the first run! What is under the hood?

Originally posted by Epistuff:
but how dare you post 1/4 miles time withough letting us know the basic combo....I thought it was just me. Guys, you gotta' post your combo if you post your times or dyno #'s. ;)

Good going though! Whatever it is. graemlins/clonk.gif

NIce mph at the 1/8

Is that the 480HP engine?

358 CI.480 HP at 5900.7400 redline. 485 lift solid flat tappet cam. Flat top Diamond pistons (12.5 to 1). Aluminum GRP rods. Junk yard crank and block. Vortec heads with 2.02/1.60's, no porting. 750 Mighty Demon on GM Vortec single plane. MSD Ign, 4.56 12 bolt. Hughes THM 350 w/ 8" converter. 10x26 Mickey Slicks. Launch at 5200 and hang on.

GP

I take it thats on race gas???, what are your duration specs and such on the cam?

Thanks for the info Gary,....
That is stout to say the least! Nice going, that should be a blast to drive down the track. Is that convertor streetable?

JR

12.5 to 1 with a flat piston!
How much was taken off the heads? Must be a very tight quench too.
Nice run, you`d think a cam that small would be all done way before 7400 rpm, but you can`t argue with those numbers graemlins/thumbsup.gif

And btw that`s a pretty small tire, especially with 4.56`s, what are the shift points and finish line rpm?

Fuel is VP C12. Car is street legal (more or less)and plated, but you wouldn't want to drive it too much more than a head turning roll through town. Converter is very drivable considering its specs. Heads were rolled one degree to get the chamber to 50cc from 64. Peak power is at 5900, but still makes good power at over 7000. We measured it on a dyno to 7200. I shift it at 6500 (1-2)and 7000 (2-3) and cross the line at 7200-7400. Duration is about 270 at.050. Hope to dip into the tens this weekend with some better air and less wheel spin, it'll either work or it won't.

Gary

Nice run out of the box but I think the kid's performance with the daily driven '67 camaro running pump gas with his 385 is far more impressive.

What was it, 11.60 launching off the footbrake?

Low 11's are coming his way once he starts tuning the motor and suspension and runs in some better air.

That's the combo I'd build and that's a street car. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

thanks Footbraker!

Nice run Gary!

Footbraker, there all cool, and we can each build what we want....God Bless America and the great freedom that we enjoy. I already have a street car (Restified 70 Trans Am)so don't need another, the Camaro is a race car that only pretends to be a street car. That being said...shut up and race:)

Gary

Gary, what year is the car?

I think the kid's performance with the daily driven '67 camaro running pump gas with his 385 is far more impressive Not me!

Sorry Brian, yours is still very impressive but Gary's was the first time out! and I recall Brians being mid 12s ish.

Not to mention the low buck parts!

Nice to see you try and ruin somebody's day Footbraker. graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/sad.gif

Awesome job first time out Gary. Gonna be fun to see if you get 10s with that little mouse. Good luck! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Brian, it's a not rare, not collectable, not note worthy '84. Your car is cool, saw the NJ web, you should be proud of it. 1.61 60 ft is a rush isn't it? Mine went 1.62. I've driven faster cars, but never one that is as much fun as this one. It's already on the trailer ready to go again this saturday.

Gary

Nice runs Gary. Very strong for a fairly basic combo. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Gee... I wonder who footbraker could be :rolleyes:

thanks for the compliment.
the 1.61 was cool :D

An 84' Camaro can be an excellent race car, if set up correctly.

Originally posted by DragRacer:
Gee... I wonder who footbraker could be :rolleyes: Well it certainly couldn't be you. graemlins/sad.gif tongue.gif

Originally posted by DragRacer:
Nice runs Gary. Very strong for a fairly basic combo. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Gee... I wonder who footbraker could be :rolleyes: You thinking what I'm thinking Jason? Yup, I know you are ;) .

Originally posted by Gary at GMPP:
Heads were rolled one degree to get the chamber to 50cc from 64.
Duration is about 270 at.050.

Gary Two things Gary;
1}Please explain what`s involved to "roll the head 1 degree"; spot facing, milling the manifold etc...?
What`s an guesstimate on how much it would cost?.

2} The cam isn`t an off the shelf deal obviously, who ground it? and how/why did you come up with those specs?

Garry, I can't believe you stuck so little money into your mill and it goes like that. The Mennonite in me is impressed.

Originally posted by Footbraker:
Nice run out of the box but I think the kid's performance with the daily driven '67 camaro running pump gas with his 385 is far more impressive.
Bring it to our track at over 7000 DA and lets see it run! Everyone forgets how important the elevation is. I drop over .5 just going to boise.

Lee

gee I wonder who footbrake could be???? duhhhhh

Congrats Gary graemlins/thumbsup.gif

You bring alot of good information to this site.

I hope footbraker can be nice and hangs around as long as he can be nice to everybody ,
because he has some good information too.

Just because you have a different approach or goal,
is no reason to crap on anybodyelse's accomplishments.

Thats an interesting combo... Have fun.

Originally posted by Footbraker:
Nice run out of the box but I think the kid's performance with the daily driven '67 camaro running pump gas with his 385 is far more impressive.

What was it, 11.60 launching off the footbrake?

Low 11's are coming his way once he starts tuning the motor and suspension and runs in some better air.

That's the combo I'd build and that's a street car. graemlins/thumbsup.gif :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

OH BROTHER!

Come on, dudes, let's not turn this perfectly good post into a p***ing contest. Let's just get back to talking cars with Gary.

Sounds like a real fun car! I'd like to know what a 1.61 60' feels like! Best I ever mustered was a 1.8 or so. Oh well, I'm still relatively young, and have a lot of time left to figure it out.

Originally posted by BigRed-L72:
The cam isn`t an off the shelf deal obviously, who ground it? and how/why did you come up with those specs? Gary is a GMPP employee, so I'm wondering if that isn't the old Chevy mechanical flat tappet "1st Design Racing Cam", the one that could be dealer-installed on Z28's back in the day. Seems like that cam had similar specs.

Originally posted by BigRed-L72:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gary at GMPP:
Heads were rolled one degree to get the chamber to 50cc from 64.
Duration is about 270 at.050.

Gary Two things Gary;
1}Please explain what`s involved to "roll the head 1 degree"; spot facing, milling the manifold etc...?
What`s an guesstimate on how much it would cost?.

2} The cam isn`t an off the shelf deal obviously, who ground it? and how/why did you come up with those specs? </font>[/QUOTE]=
Red,
Not to answer for Gary but since your post seems to have gotten lost in the "Mines bigger than yours stuff" :D
Rolling the head 1 deg is the same as angle milling.
I do it quite a bit in circle track stuff where you are limited to what casting you can run.
It involves cutting most of the material off the chamber or exhaust side of the head so you are staying away from the intake seat which is the limiting factor in flat milling.
You then need to cut the intake side of the head back to 10 degrees so the intake will mate & spot face all the bolt bosses & in extreme cases ream the bolt holes so the bolts will sit flat & still line up with the block at as close to 90 degrees as you can get them.

While I have "rolled" some 18 degree heads 1 full degree which is .132" on a small block head., I have not "rolled" any 23 degree stuff a full degree but have come very close ;)

The sine of one degree is .0175 & the distance you are cutting is right at 7.5" assuming you are cutting across the whole head.
You would need to cut about .110" to get from 64 to 50 when angle milling & most call this one degree as it is very close.
======================

Gary,
Nice,,, graemlins/beers.gif

screw Bush I say we all vote for Mike! graemlins/hurray.gif

Man I wish I lived closer to you so I could intern or something :D

Thanks Mike.
How can there be much deck left with that much cut off?. It`s my understanding the Vortecs deck isn`t very thick to start with! :confused:

If you were to do a set of the BBC 113cc chamber Canfields in the same manner what would the chamber end up at? a loose estimate`s fine.

With all the work needed, how much money would it cost? Is it worth it?
Any before and after dyno numbers?

Thanks Mike, you're right on with the head milling. Took .110 on the exhaust side, .000 on the intake side. Remachined all the head bolt holes and spot faced them. Remachined the intake gasket side of the head. Machined the intake manifold at the front and rear china wall so that it would sit low enough to seal.

The deck on the Vortec head on the exhaust side is plenty thick for this.But you can't cut the intake side more than about .060.

OK, I'm going to break the cardinal rule of cam spec secrecy. But you guys owe me one:)

The cam was made by comp, using lobe profiles from their master lobe catalog.Brian Thomson (engine builder)and I conspired on the specs. It's a steel flat tappet solid lifter grind. Lift is 483I/485E. Duration is 267I/270E. And here is the magic, the lobe seperation is not the 108 you'd expect, it's 112. This alows for the duration I need with less overlap, so that cylinder pressiures are higher and the engine makes more torque. This engine has a very flat torque curve and accompanying HP curve. Remember Vortec heads stall at .500 lift so more lift is detrimental. And they out flow nearly all small block heads at lower lift (.100, .200, etc.) so the big duration ensures big area under the flow curve, while the lobe seperation tames the cam down. This my friends is the "systems approach" to engine building and the net result is always a little better. Additionally, the headers were designed after the exact cam specs were known (you need exhaust valve opening before bottom dead center spec to get header length, sonic reversion pulse timing, blah, blah, blah.) And after the engine had been power mapped on Brian's dyno using dyno headers. So, heads, pistons, cam, headers, intake, all of it was carefully chosen to precisely compliment each other in the engine's primary operating range. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Gary

Gary,

Thanks for sharing more detail on your combo. What intake centerline is the cam installed on?

Originally posted by BigRed-L72:
Thanks Mike.
How can there be much deck left with that much cut off?. It`s my understanding the Vortecs deck isn`t very thick to start with! :confused:

If you were to do a set of the BBC 113cc chamber Canfields in the same manner what would the chamber end up at? a loose estimate`s fine.

With all the work needed, how much money would it cost? Is it worth it?
Any before and after dyno numbers? =
Hi Red,
113cc Canfields? Have they been cut before?
I don't use Canfields so I was not aware they had a 113cc head.
What would you like to get too??
The angle milling in itself is not really a performance improvement, it is just a way to get the chambers to a smaller size without running into the intake seat.

If you angle milled .100 off you should be about 14cc's less.
Most open chamber heads are about .007/cc angle milling & about .005/cc flat milling
Cost varies a bunch but here it would be about $250-$300 to angle mill, correct intake face, spot face bolt holes & check cc's.

These ain't exact figures as it varies by both chamber shape & as you get deeper but they will be pretty close.

Gary is this car setup for mean street or cheap street in the PRO Edelbrock series?

Mike, they have the CNC`d chamber option that is available in either 110/113/119 cc.
Just wondering how much compression I could get with a Flat piston.
Brand new 496" motor that originally was to be supercharged.
It`s available to me(it`s still on the stand in my garage) for what I consider to be a very good price but I wouldn`t put a charger on it though.
Just mulling it around some.

Gary, that's similar to the philosophy I went with on my solid street cam (but mine's an off the shelf Crane). Low lift, long duration, wide LSA, with off the shelf Vortecs. I really like the results on the street. Haven't run it at the track, and don't expect great numbers if I do, but it's a blast to drive!

I've spun it to 6500 several times, and even hit 7000 once, with no signs of valve float and it never stopped pulling.

I really love the way the Vortecs perform with the solid cam.

Originally posted by Gary at GMPP:

OK, I'm going to break the cardinal rule of cam spec secrecy. But you guys owe me one:)

The cam was made by comp, using lobe profiles from their master lobe catalog.Brian Thomson (engine builder)and I conspired on the specs. It's a steel flat tappet solid lifter grind. Lift is 483I/485E. Duration is 267I/270E. And here is the magic, the lobe seperation is not the 108 you'd expect, it's 112. This alows for the duration I need with less overlap, so that cylinder pressiures are higher and the engine makes more torque. This engine has a very flat torque curve and accompanying HP curve. Remember Vortec heads stall at .500 lift so more lift is detrimental. And they out flow nearly all small block heads at lower lift (.100, .200, etc.) so the big duration ensures big area under the flow curve, while the lobe seperation tames the cam down. This my friends is the "systems approach" to engine building and the net result is always a little better. Additionally, the headers were designed after the exact cam specs were known (you need exhaust valve opening before bottom dead center spec to get header length, sonic reversion pulse timing, blah, blah, blah.) And after the engine had been power mapped on Brian's dyno using dyno headers. So, heads, pistons, cam, headers, intake, all of it was carefully chosen to precisely compliment each other in the engine's primary operating range. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Gary =
Gary,
While I totally agree with a "systems approach"
widening the lobe separation angle will not increase cylinder pressure assuming the same lobes & the same amount of advance. It will actually lower the cylinder pressure.

Now if you take the same lobes & install the 112 sep cam at 6 degrees advance vs. a 106 sep installed straight up you would have the same approximate cylinder pressures at lower speeds as you are closing the intake valve at the same point which is the primary controller of cylinder pressure.

The 112 cam will have less overlap as you are advancing the exhaust lobe but this has almost nothing to do with cylinder pressures except for the difference in intake reversion at lower speeds that happens with the 106 sep cam.

A 106 or 108 cam of the same lobe design will build more peak torque sooner than a 112 cam.

The 112 cam will have a flatter & broader torque curve with less peak torque but will normally make more top end HP or not "fall off" as quickly.

Also the 112 cam allows you to run enough duration to fill the cylinder without the adverse effects of as much reversion at lower speeds.

Where the exhaust valve opens has very little to do with cylinder pressures but is very important in regards to blowdown.
If you open it too soon you lose some of the effective "push" on the piston.
If you open it too late you will not empty the cylinder as effectively & you incur pumping losses because the piston will now have to do more of the work of emptying the cylinder & if it isn't at atmospheric or less when the intake valve starts opening you end up with reversion & or less of a low pressure area for the intake charge to fill.

If everything happens "right" the cylinder will be empty & the exhaust tuning will be "pulling" on the intake charge to help in filling the cylinder.

There is no blanket overlap triangle that works for all engines.
Very wide lobe angles work very will in big inch high rpm engines that run in a narrow band which goes against the common "rule" of a wider RPM band but it I believe it is partly because you have to run so much duration to be able to fill the cylinder that without the wide centers you would have way too much overlap which would tend to pull the intake charge right out the exhaust.

It would be very interesting to see how your combination would react to a 108 or 109 separation angle without changing anything else.
I would think you would pick up power across the board with a slight decrease in peak power.

But I could be all wet as unfortunately, these damn engines do not read the same books we do ;)

I guess this is why we have the good guy cam designers to help us with this crap :D

Congrats Gary !! Nice times -- and with a single plane intake too OMG ;)

Impressive :D

HEY! Yours is bigger than mine, er, ... opps, I mean MINE MINE MINE..... tongue.gif

J/K. THat's some arse kicking stuff Gary!

Nothing worse than trolls...especially when you know who they are. :rolleyes:

That's some impressive stuff, Gary. Sweet! graemlins/thumbsup.gif