At the last car show I was at I saw a real nice 69 Chevelle SS.I heard that the owner had done a total restoration and soon after someone ran a stop sign and smashed it up pretty good.He then found a malibu body and switched everything over, even the vin#'s Some people I talk to say that this can be done as long as you have a title to both cars.Is this legal?

I'm no lawyer, so I can only offer an opinion, and that is no. How would you feel if you spent good money on a nicely built SS, only to find out somehow later that it was simply a clone? Which in effect this is. Again, this is just one opinion.

------------------
Madness takes it's toll, please have exact change.

Fred
'70 Chevelle
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/shop/9385/1970Chevelle.html

If that car is sold across a state line, something may hit the fan big time. I have brought a few vehicles into Arizona and they have what they call a level 2 inspection which compares the vin tag to the hidden numbers on the body and frame.I suspect that such an altered car would be impounded.

Sounds like 2 issues here.

1) Is it legal to take 2 cars and make it into 1.

2) Is it legal to move parts from an SS onto a Malibu and call it an SS.

As for #1, salvage yards that rebuild and sell cars do things like that all of the time. You would have to talk to your state DMV as to what the legal process is etc. I also believe they issue a salvage title for these type of cars.

As for #2, this has been beat to death in another post. In this case it sounds like they are rebuilding a real SS with parts from a malibu. We re-build our cars everyday with generic parts. Now, are they planning to re-stamp ( fake) the numbers ????

my $0.02

Bill

NO! and you shouldn't even think about it.

Mark

While I have nothing against a clone that is not claimed to be real, this seems a little shady. As my grandfather used to say " you can put a silk hat on a pig, but it remains a pig." Just my .02 cents worth,
kevin d

Ok, consider this: Instead of moving the SS parts to the Malibu, what if the guy had just taken all the needed parts from the Malibu and moved them to the SS? Would this be the same? worse? better?

At what point do you go from just fixing a broken part to creating a clone? how much of the original vehicle should be there before it becomes something else? The frame? The shell? Just the numbers?

Let's say it's 1968 and you crack up your 67 SS L79. You replace the front clip and the frame. Is it still the same car, or is it now just a 67 Chevelle with a 396?

Not too sure what I think of it all, but it does make you think...

Kurt

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The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
A.C.E.S. #1352

why not. alot of folks dont have the money or the luck to find a true SS. just be truthfull. No state that i know of will IMPOUND the car. A simple explination of th fact will ratify any problem that may occure with law enforcment. I say go for it. Anyone that tells you its not worth rebuilding from non SS stock is off their rocker. Like the prev guy, half the resto's out there use aftermarket parts, they are still SS's right.
My self i would rather see a clone of one of the great american muscle cars, instead of you spending your money on a everyone has one 4th gen camaro, or worse yet a cookie cutter import.
Just tell people the facts and they will admire your love of these great cars...

P.S. And if they go up for sale the legaly correct thing to to is tell the truth, its called full disclosure. One can be sued if the truth is not told.

(studied law before chemistry)

Later guys n gals lew.


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[This message has been edited by lew (edited 05-12-99).]

You cannot legally move a VIN from one car to another. If you had done the same in Texas, you would then apply for a state issued VIN. The trooper inspects the car, the documentation, then they affix a little sticker to the door jamb with the state issued VIN. Talk about killing the resale value.

I unwittingly bought a Porsche that had been chopped in another state and recovered after the number on the windshield pillar had been cut off. Then I get stopped by the local constabulary and I get this lesson.

What the guy did was illegal and immoral.

------------------
See you at Chevell-abration!

I think he was deceiving others. I like my Malibu
for what it is and plan on keeping it at that trim level. I like Chevelles period, don't care what they're called.
People ask me if all Malibu's are Chevelles and I don't know what the cutoff is.

------------------
Gary Davis
68 Malibu 327
ACES 3009

Gary : All Malibus are Chevelles. All Chevelles are not Malibus.


Kurt

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The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
A.C.E.S. #1352

Kurt,
What about the new Malibu ??? I don't think it's a Chevelle is it ???

My wife saw a commercial for the new Malibu last night. She freaked out http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif . THAT's NOT A MALIBU !!! Well I guess it's called a Malibu but it isn't a Chevelle ( I hope )

Just being picky,

Bill

Ok Bill, you got me on that one. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

But in my own defense, I don't really consider the new Malibu much of a car in general, Chevelle or otherwise.

kurt

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The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
A.C.E.S. #1352

As a proud owner of a stock 70 Malibu I think they should have retired the name. The new Malibu is embarrassing to me as a classic Malibu owner, not to be confused with a Malibu classic http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Of course one could argue that the Malibu of the 60's and 70's was just as much a family car as the Malibu of the 90's, just not as powerful. I don't care, it's mine and I love it, and I am not going to throw SS emblems on it to try and make it out to something it's not. I look at this way...I don't like my women all faked out with plastic faces and other parts, I like the real McCoy, don't try to pawn it off for something it's not.
Just my $.05

------------------

Guys - look at it this way:

You have a beautiful matching numbers Chevelle SS. You're cruising through down on a beautiful summer day when some bonehead housewife in a Toyota 4-Runner screams through a red light and broadsides you, bending the frame, foiling the body, everything. You HAD a numbers matching SS, but now what do you have? What do you do with the remains? Are you telling me that by taking a stock Malibu and putting the SS drivetrain, suspension, interior, etc into the Malibu is wrong? You're saving a ****ing numbers matching SS! What else are you gonna do? Part the thing out? Put yourself in this situation, and your opinion will change real fast.

------------------
Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Columbia University
New York, NY.
E-mail: havoc@graffiti.net
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441

To: Havoc
That's what you are suppose to have insurance for. You won't enjoy the car if your in jail for switching VIN numbers. Check with your local DMV.

I guess I own a 67 pig!

------------------

Havoc:

I agree with you and it seems to me that the difficulty some people have is in the wording:

To take an SS drivetrain and install it in a Malibu would be wrong and make it a clone.

To take an SS Drivetrain and use Malibu parts to complete the restoration would be ok.

I'm willing to be that there isn't a person on this site who would have refused a needed fender simply because it didn't come from the correct trim option Chevelle.

For my own purposes, it's the drivetrain which makes the car. A body is just a shell around the correct drivetrain. I sure didn't take the time to find an original 300 Deluxe in order to replace my floors, and I still feel it's a true 300 Deluxe.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and no doubt others feel differently.

------------------
The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
A.C.E.S. #1352

So by this reasoning, what really makes a numbers matching car is a VIN tag and an engine/tranny to match it. Slap them into anything you want...it doesn't matter. While your at it, stick a "00000" odometer in it too, giving it an authentic "0" miles. Only stands to reason.

I can see it now in the parts section: "70 LS-6 engine with matching VIN tag $25000...you supply the car."

Regarding impounding cars: a friend of mine had a Harley that he had not registered for 10 years or so ( he did have it registered prior that). When he went to get it registered again, the vin on the engine came back as a non-existant VIN, plus the font that it was stamped with was not a Harley font. Although they could not prove that the engine was stolen, he could not prove that it wasn't. They impounded the bike. This was a bike that had been titled and registered in this state (AZ) in his name. They did let him take everything off of it that he put on it, but he never got it back.

Ok Gene, for the sake of discussion, what do you do in this situation: (god forbid) your car is wrecked. You need new fenders, hood, roof, trunk lid, and rear 1/4's. New emblems, trim and window glass. The interior needs work and so does some of the engine. You get it all fixed back up and into great condition again.

Is it still an SS? If not, then what is it?

note: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering where the line gets drawn

Kurt

------------------
The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
A.C.E.S. #1352

In Massachusetts it is illegal to swap VIN #'s from one car to another. If it wasn't, you could have a 66ss with 50k miles forever or at least everytime you swapped the VIN tag.

My nickels worth

Mr. Schamun:
Having insurance is irrelevant. Regardless of your insurance company, someone is going to end up with a wrecked numbers matching SS. So what happens? Do they restore it using a malibu shell? Or do they cut it up and sell the parts to people who are just gonna use them to make a poor SS clone? You're lying to yourself if you don't think you'd try and save this car if given the chance.

And for the legality issue of this, gimme a break. If you get a lawyer with a third of a brain, you are not going to jail. Rebuilding one car by using the pieces of two is not a crime. The vin plate is a part just like a door or a cylinder head. As long as you keep the VIN and the engine together and prove you were saving a wreck when you swapped the VIN plates, you're not doing any jail time. Essenitially, you'd be swapping two parts, the body shell, and the frame.

------------------
Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Columbia University
New York, NY.
E-mail: havoc@graffiti.net
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441

I'll have to agree with Havoc on this one.
Although not legal to do, I can't believe anyone would part out an original SS car if a body replacement would fix it.
It seems to me that the real problem I think would be if the original frame was not used, a future inspection will reveal the wrong numbers on the frame could cause the car to be confiscated and some future buyer could loose what ever he had invested in the car.

As an example; I just recently sold a 70 frame to a fella I met through the Chevelle list.
He had bought a 72 Malibu and found out later that the frame was totaly rusted out and had been patched back together (another rip off story, the seller knew about it but didn't tell him)
Anyway, to make a short story long, I gave him a bill of sale and copy of the title.
He tore the car all apart and since he wanted to keep everything legal, he called the KHP out to verify what he was doing.
The officer found out that the VIN tag and cowl tag had at some time previously been switched which made the numbers on the old frame not match the title.
The HP officer told him You have an unmarketable vehicle and can't do anything with it. (if it had been all in one piece thay probably would have confiscated it)
Now he has a garage full of parts.

------------------
Dean Call
A.C.E.S. # 00235
N.C.O.A. # 4350

macc.chevelles.net (http://macc.chevelles.net)

Some are you are missing the point. You can move parts ie fenders, seats etc. But it stops when you start thinking about moving
VIN #, DATA PLATES AND OTHER TAGS.

Mark

hey guys i could be wrong but it's my understanding that the vin numbers on a 69 don't id anything except a 2 door sport coupe, where it was built and what number it was. point being if you properly hang all the right ss stuff on a malibu.... how could anyone really know the difference? i have what i think is a true ss and i'm very content to go on believing that, and representing it as such.

John6066: I think the intent is that the VIN number is stamped on the engine, so it's not to show that it's a certain body style, but more to show that the big block matches the VIN tag

Havoc: I think I would try like hell to save at least the cowl/dash. Not much different than what your talking about, I know, but I have a real problem with moving a VIN plate and cowl tag from one car to another. If I had to remove ID's from a car, I wouldn't do it.

Havoc wrote:
"The vin plate is a part just like a door or a cylinder head. As long as you keep the VIN and the engine together and prove you were saving a wreck when you swapped the VIN plates, you're not doing any jail time.."

The VIN plate is not a part and it is illegal to change. You are fooling yourself if YOU think that you can't go to jail for it.

Using your logic, it would be ok for salvage yards to buy wrecks with solid titles, then get stolen cars to swap the identification onto, then re-sell the resultant chopped car. This is exactly why it's not legal in any state.

I drive a '70 SS convertible everyday. If I wreck it, I will be sad. However, I will not try to buy another Malibu to switch the identities on. I might clone it, but that's another thread.

Wow, This whole issue is getting very complex. Try this angle:

Numbers matching should mean all of the part numbers and stamped numbers are correct and not altered to make them correct.

For the engine block and frame etc these are also stamped and must match without being altered. For other parts that have date codes such as heads, carb.'s etc the date codes must be prior to the build date of the car but only by 1 or 2 months. They call this "period correct". Even the glass in the windows can be data checked. To make a true numbers car requires finding the exact date correct parts.
So using generic GM parts such as doors, fenders etc does not effect numbers matching but if you have repro fenders, hood etc that should also effect a true numbers car. If you think this numbers game issue is serious for our beloved Chevelle's, check out what's involved with Corvette's. The NCRS judges deduct points for any and every part NOT correct. Hoses, lights, etc. I've seen Vette owners search for years for the exact date code on a part to complete their restoration.

I have to agree with HAVOC on this entire issue. I don't think you will go to jail for switching VIN tags on these older cars, as long as you can prove that you switched it legally. Many of you are restoring vehicles and you can't tell me this is where the line is drawn, because I see so many postings for SS dashes and guage clusters and isn't this affecting the true odometer reading on whatever car they are putting these in?

My opinion is that as long as you completely change the donor body into the wrecked SS by transfering all the parts that distinguish that SS, then it is the same SS. It is just sheet metal! I agree that you shouldn't try to sell the car as completely original, you should tell the truth as to what was done and even prove that you did it legally.

As with new cars, I think it is a different story (even though the law might not distinguish a cut off year), but I think most people can tell the difference between a stolen chopped car and a classic restored car. And by all means, keep proof for legallity. As for the guy that bought the frame and couldn't prove where it came from, I can't believe that. I have used frames out of the salvage yards and I didn't have to prove where I got it. Sounds like the inspection standards are tough in that state, maybe because auto theft is so common?

Remember this for '69-71: An SS is a Malibu sport coupe and the only thing that makes it an SS is the options on the car. A total and perfect clone is an SS, but one should not sell it as original. This is just my opinion guys. I enjoy restoring and rebuiling cars out of many different cars and no one will draw the line for me! I just tell the truth when I sell the thing and let the buyer judge. Hell, even car shows admire ressurections.

It's a fact of life...nothing lasts forever. Who the hell wants a Chevelle Frankenstein!? A car that is that badly wrecked is an insurance case and maybe a spare parts car, that's it! Bury it, cut your losses and find another love. It's sad, but we all gotta go sometime.

Thanks to everyone who can see this the same way I do. If any of you get your SS's wrecked, I have no qualms about taking them off of your hands and using a malibu body to restore them. And in this wonderful democratic country of ours, you don't just go to jail. There is a trial, and I'm sure you could prove that you were restoring a car and not committing any other "crimes" besides messing with the VIN plates. And I'd like to see the new york police try and check the number on a frame.... That number has been nonexistant since the first winter the car got driven.

Basically, my theory is this: It's only a crime if you get caught.

------------------
Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Columbia University
New York, NY.
E-mail: havoc@graffiti.net
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441

A lot of good discussion on this topic. The laws forbidding VIN removal/switching were enacted to combat auto theft. Unfortunately the automobile hobby suffers due to these laws, but they have to apply to all vehicles to be enforceable. In my area, although illegal, you probably would not be prosecuted if a vehicle inspection shows no evidence of stolen components. It's your decision to switch a VIN, but I would think long and hard before I would take this kind of risk. Each jurisdiction is different in their outlook on what violations are worth taking to court. I know an investigator in my area that identified a bogus ZL 1 Camaro recently but they have no plans at this time to confiscate it. They look at it as more of a civil problem that the new buyer (victim) can resolve with a lawsuit.

Adding in my $0.02 would be to mention also that an SS car maybe have a rusted out shell as well. Everything else intact and in good salvageable condition(engine, frame, tranny, rear end,hood, trunk lid, SS emblems, etc.) Taking a good donor no rust or minimally rusted (or wrecked) Malibu body and replacing every component (which comes from the rusted SS) would not make the car a clone. Changing the body (shell) makes an SS a clone?? Of course the VIN and data plate would be need to be changed to the Malibu body (agreeing somewhat w/ Havoc I guess). This is what bothers alot of people from what I read from the other posts. The frame VIN # would have to match the VIN # to keep the car as a partially numbers matching SS (remembering that other numbered parts could be replaced) Some people do not care about numbers matching. In fact if a *real documented factory built SS* without its originally installed engine, tranny, rearend or whatever else is matched to the VIN is still an SS - its just not a numbers matching SS. What happens when a *factory-built numbers-matching SS* is restored with new 1/4 panels, floor pans, trunk pans, doors, glass, emblems (the list can go on)? Is it still an SS? Of course it is! What makes an SS is not necessarily the numbers (or glass, or door handles, or interior, or...) It is really the particular Chevrolet SS-identified parts that make it an SS. Of course, the particular VIN and part numbers could be documented within GM files somewhere that would identify a certain SS car with its associated VIN and data plates. These files are currently unavailable and Chevrolet will probably keep it that way to prevent any controversies that may possibly arise if they did. Since the SS was an option and not a body style after 1968 (I think I am correct here) it is easy to fake(clone?)an SS for 69-72 models. Anyway, when do we come to closure on this subject?? And who exactly would be the authority in deciding this subject? No one!! I think this debate will continue forever.

This topic hits very close to home for me. Back in '83 I bought a numbers matching '65 Impala SS396 basket case in Wisconsin. The car was Tuxedo Black with a red interior. It came with the 325hp 396 with a factory Holley intake & carb, TH400 and factory air. The car was originally from Arkansas, and was only on the road in WI for a couple of years. I was able to get paperwork from the Arkansas DMV from when the car was sold new to when it was brought to Wisconsin in '79.

The trunk and most of the lower quarters and rear wheelhouses were gone. What was left of the quarters was pretty banged up. There was a fair amount of rust in the cowl area as well.

After finding out that it would take a small fortune to replace all of the sheetmetal, and that the final product would never be as nice as a never-rusted car, I decided that I was going to do the tag swap. Today, all I have left from the original car is the rolling chassis, engine, tranny, interior, doors, and fenders. From a legal standpoint, I guess I would be safe if I would have cut away and replaced all the metal on the car except the door pillar and firewall. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

It would be a shame to consider this car a loss given the way it was set up from the factory, and its my intention to put it back together using a donor 65 SS shell. Is this wrong? From a legal standpoint, maybe. But how about ethically, if a future buyer is aware of what's been done?

I guess the act of physically removing a VIN tag from whatever metal its attached to constitutes the illegal act, but its unfortunate that intention isn't taken into consideration. And how much of the original metal has to remain? I bet a good lawyer could argue that as long as you didn't drill out the rivets, but rather left the tag on the metal (even a 3" by 3" piece!) and replaced everything around it, you'd be OK, according to the letter of the law.

One more scenario, and then I'll shut up. What if you have a car that is hit in the driver's door hinge pillar on a 66 Chevelle? Can the pillar be replaced, since the VIN tag is riveted to it? Or would it be illegal to cut the pillar out and rivet the tag on a replacement pillar? Any lawyers out there?

------------------
Rainer
'68 SS396
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
rseitz@pacifier.com

OK, so I'm not ready to shut up just yet. Here's another twist. In my Chevrolet parts book dated October, 1970, there are the following two listings under group 10.001:

"BODY ASSEMBLY (Painted and trimmed with all hardware, less instruments supplied during production year).

BODY SHELL (Less paint, trim, glass, hardware, doors, and rear compartment lid).

Availability and prices will be furnished upon request."

What this means is that a body shell could be ordered as a replacement part! If you could order it new as a replacement part, why not consider a used body shell as a replacement part as well? I'm wondering how they dealt with the tags in those situations. Any thoughts from the anti-swapping contingent?

------------------
Rainer
'68 SS396
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
rseitz@pacifier.com

Thanks for the info Rainer - you da man! I guess if you could order a replacement body shell, you would need to change the VIN plate anyway to install it, which would make a body swap these days legal, at least from an ethical point of view.

------------------
Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Columbia University
New York, NY.
E-mail: havoc@graffiti.net
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441

Yeah, in 1979, I purchased a brand new frame for my 1974 Corvette Roadster from Knapp Chevrolet in Houston, Texas. Since the left lower control arm bracket had been torn off, welded and subsequently broken, I had to replace the frame. It had no serial numbers on it that belonged to any previously registered vehicle. Although I didn't look at the time, I presume it had some kind of serialization denoting it as a replacement frame (like CE on crate engines). The new parts were intended to be replaced. The used ones are protected by law.

As far as lawyers and their effectiveness in affecting vehicle title issues. The routine is that you are at the mercy of some governmental agency's staffing clerk. As a matter of course, they are going to make you adhere to the letter of the law as they interpret it. If they don't see it your way, you will spend more money with a lawyer clearing the issue than the car is worth. Have you ever sued the state? That's what you're up against.

There is a guy (my apologies for not remembering his name or webpage) on the Chevelle List who is going through a similar problem with purchasing a "chop job" on what he thought was a '72 SS.

Oh and Havoc, my best friend went to jail over the Porsche episode. It seems as if they arrest you first and ask questions later when you are caught driving a car without the proper VIN tag.

You guys go do what you want. The question was "Is it legal?". The answer is, "It is not!".

The point worth noting is that whatever laws as they exist were enacted to address the issue of theft, as indicated in earlier posts. Laws are not cut and dried, which is why we have the court system in place to interpret them. Just because the laws have been interpreted in such a way that any ID alteration is devious, that doesn't mean that people should simply roll over and accept it as such. There still are alot of stupid laws on the books these days...

In response to your points, Alan, what laws govern used parts? You said your frame didn't have a serial number from a previously-registered vehicle - what difference would it have made if it did? There are thousands of engines with serial numbers from previously-registered vehicles that have been legally swapped into other vehicles.

------------------
Rainer
'68 SS396
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
rseitz@pacifier.com


[This message has been edited by Rainer (edited 05-13-99).]

WOW!! Now this is why I can't wait to logon after work each day. Rainer and Havoc I'm in your corner.Thumbs Up to all who have had an opinion,this I believe is the key to making ours the greatest forum of it's kind.

Ranier,
The difference is that it is illegal to remove alter, deface or destroy a VIN from the body or frame. Since the frame didn't have a VIN, it was no problem. From what I understand, I could have installed a used frame, but it would have had to been inspected by law enforcement (searching for thefts) and given a new number.

Funny how I *knew* someone was going to bring the engine issue up. As I understand it (I'm not a lawyer and have only my firsthand experiences to form my opinions on), it is acceptable to change engines rearends, doors, hoods, etc. (every body panel on my last Porsche had the VIN on it) The law draws the line at the body shell and frame - which is what's titled or registered, not the engine.

I agree with your assessment about the draconian nature of some laws. However, they are still the laws and they are there to protect our interests. One thing you guys are ignoring is how you would feel if you spent your hard earned money to purchase what you thought was a factory built SS and it wasn't. To make matters worse, imagine it was a very good chop job. When you discovered it, how mad would you be? Who would you want to sue?

This is absolutely my last post on this thread. Thanks for the civility.

Here's an interesting situation....I know where there's a 1970 GTO Judge, non-matching numbers engine, but with PHS documentation. Somewhere along the way the car was hit REAL hard in the side. The frame had been straightened, and the rear quarter, rocker, part of the roof and trunk had been replaced with a section of donor car. It is real rough, but a true Judge. I would like to buy this car and restore it, but the only feasible way is to replace the body shell. The reason is, there are pieces of the shell that are damaged, but not obtainable. If I were to take the top of the dash panel with the VIN tag, and replace the dash in the new shell with the original, and take the section of the frame with the VIN and replace it too, would that be acceptible???
If I can prove that I owned both vehicles, what's the difference if I change a fender or a shell? I am on the side of saving the car if all possible.
On a side note, you used to be able, or still can, go down to your local Chevy dealer and order a brand new complete CAB SHELL with doors and regulators for the full-size Chevy trucks.

I have a 68 malibu that Im cloning I have installed a 396 and front disks and looking for 12 bolt posi I have also installed all ss396 emblems, I dont think cloning is a problem unless your trying to sell the car off as a real ss. I love this car and even though its really a malibu its also alot like an ss. I just hate it when people rip on clones.

Changing the VIN is illegal. The VIN is a legal indentifier for the vehicle and the law looks on changing the VIN as defrauding!
Changing options is not. The SS was an option from 69 up. You may make an enemy if you clone a SS and then sell it. I doubt that is illegal but you could be sued if you missrepresent the car.

I never cease's to amaze me that people will want to go thought all the trouble and cost of cloning a SS. I tried to restore a 70 SS396 El Camino and gave up because of the cost. It would cheaper to go buy one in good condition and drive it. You would then have the real thing not a fake.



[This message has been edited by elcamino (edited 05-14-99).]

Try this for a twist....... I recently thought I bought a 72 SS clone. I was even told that it was a clone by the seller. He had only had the car for two years, it turned out that when he was selling the car, some guy called him and requested the VIN #. Well when given to the persective purchaser, he told the seller that you have a Malibu and not a Chevelle SS. Seller got bummed, I called and he told me that it was a clone and that he had lowered the price but I had to see this car because it was "drop dead beautiful". I looked, I bought, I did research. I found out car was built in Canada. I contacted GM Canada. I waited four weeks for documented paper work. I found out I bought a VERY REAL 1972 Chevelle SS and not a clone!!! Sometimes the shoe will go on the other foot.

Yes, the VIN does identify the vehicle, but what constitutes the vehicle? I'd like some opinions on the point I made earlier re: replacing a door pillar. How much damage to a vehicle can be repaired? Take a body off the frame and cut away the floors, trunk, quarters, rockers, & roof, and you're left with the firewall - a 4'x6' section of sheet metal. Is that the vehicle, simply because it has the tags affixed? According to the law, maybe so.

From my perspective, the VIN gives a vehicle an identity. For the purposes of our hobby, this identity can be confirmed through build sheets, window stickers, and other documentation. I don't think changing the identity of a vehicle is right, such as making 136370L333333 an SS when it didn't leave the factory that way, and its build sheet (whether it exists or not) would have indicated otherwise. But why not replace whatever damaged sheet metal is necessary in order to save a vehicle with a legitimate SS identity? Where is the line drawn with replacing damaged/rusted sheet metal?

Re: buying, consider these two scenarios.

1) You buy a car with documentation that verifies it as a legit SS car. Later on, after talking with some people who know of the car, you discover that at some point, the floors, rockers, trunk, rear quarters, and roof have been replaced.

2) You buy a car with documentation that verifies it as a legit SS car. Later on, after talking with some people who know of the car, you discover that the body shell has been replaced.

In which case would you feel worse? Supposedly, in the first case, all is legal, whereas in the second case the law was broken. Which car are you better off with? Should you feel better in the first case because no laws were broken? I may be upset if I was the buyer in either case because I wasn't told about the repairs done to the vehicle, but I think I'd be more upset if the car had been spliced together rather than if the shell had been swapped.

Taking a VIN tag and switching it from one complete car to another complete car is wrong. I just don't believe that taking the VIN from what's left of the shell of one car and transferring it to another shell is wrong (regardless of what the law says), especially when the engine and frame of the original car are utilized as well. The identity of the original car is preserved, in my opinion.

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Rainer
'68 SS396
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
rseitz@pacifier.com

Hello again folks.

Looks like a hot topic.

One of the guys I work with picked up a supposed 68 SS.

Vin = 136378z142075

What does this all mean?

I told him i don't know if it is a true SS. If it is a clone the prev owner did a REALLY good job!!

We have heard two different interpretations of this vin and neither of us know what this car is.

Did the dash vins on the 68's designate the SS status or is it on the Block.

How would one get the info from the manufacturer about the specs on this car, or is it too old?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

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Lew -

For 1968, the VIN needs to start out with 13837 for an SS. The car in question is a plain Malibu. You'll probably have better luck with these questions if you start a new post. Good luck.

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Rainer
'68 SS396
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
rseitz@pacifier.com

Lew, call 1-800-year-one and they will send you a Chevelle catalog for 5 bucks. They will re-imburse you the money on the first order. Of course use our sponsor, Ground Up Resorations, for most of your needs. Anyway, they have an excellent discussion of VINs in the front of the catalog and another good discussion of grading of cars in the back, well worth the bucks.
John Walker

As far as the legal argument goes, it is about the numbers on the car matching the numbers on the paperwork. Since the VIN on the car may appear in multiple places, it will raise legal questions if you have multiple VIN's. If one has to replace a frame or a major body panel (usually not an exterior panel) it would be good to keep receipts or donor car documentation when making such changes.That way it could be explained just how the mismatching VIN's appear on the car. But usually this will be a consideration unless there is an inspection involved.

Today I called and talked to an inspector who works at the DMV here in Minnesota.He said that it is not legal to remove the Vin# from 1 car and place them on another.Or cut them out and weld them in the other car.But he said if you had both titles you could section the cars and piece them together. The title would be a builders title.Not sure how this would effect resale but personally I'd be more apt to buy a car done this way then one that didnt go through the DMV.According to the DMV it still is an SS and would carry the SS vin#'s.He was vague on how big a piece you had to section,it seemed like it had to be fairly big.He was in a hurry so I could ask anymore questions.He did say that not eveyone goes through them.But kind of indicated that if you kept the proper documentation nothing would happen,as long as you told the person your selling it to what you did and passed on the paperwork.But why not go through the DMV and do it right ?

There are similar laws here in Michigan. The only trouble is most people will walk away from such a title because of the chance of buying somthing that is a piece of junk. A friends nephew is a body shop owner and used to buy wrecked trucks when they came into the dealership body shop and the customer wanted new. He rebuilt them to like new using only GM parts. He rarely could get book value for these rebuilds and would often get into arugments with buyers. He had to sell them dirt cheap. In Michigan they call it a salvage title and it can be the kiss of death. I would never give one of these a second look. He told me of a salvage yard here that was sued big time about 10 years ago over a Trans Am they made out of 2 good cars. The buyer was supposedly informed but later sued because the car could not a 4 wheel aligned and was nothing but problems. The guy could not sell the car except for scrap.

[This message has been edited by elcamino (edited 05-15-99).]

Elcamino -

I agree with you, but not with regard to classic cars. In our hobby, no one thinks twice about buying a car that has been dismantled into a garage full of parts - its what happens with every frame-off restoration. But how many people would buy a later model car that was put together in someone's garage? Probably very few. If you consider the criteria for when a vehicle should be given a "salvage" title, you would probably have to include the majority of restoration candidates out there. And as far as the risk of buying a piece of junk, I'm sure we can all attest to the number of legally thrown together pieces of junk that we're all at risk of buying when shopping for a classic.

I mentioned two scenarios above - one where someone replaced every piece of sheetmetal on the car but the firewall, and one where someone replaced the body shell. The first is legal, the second supposedly not. Which car would you rather own? And is it fair to say that the one with a shell swap is worth less than the one that's been grafted together? I wonder how many hobbyists would really frown upon the swapped car if the practice was legal? Probably very few.

A statement on the title that says the vehicle was rebuilt using parts or even a complete shell from another vehicle? No kiss of death, and it sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

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Rainer
'68 SS396
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
rseitz@pacifier.com


[This message has been edited by Rainer (edited 05-15-99).]

My dad used to have a 1972 VW Beetle that was given to him by a friend. The only thing that was the problem was that the title (documentation) was missing, and later on, the car was donated to a salvage facility.

In all 50 states, switching VINs is illegal, and doing so will land anyone in the penitentary. I know that someone has a rusted-out SS, GTO, or hot musclecar, and need a rust-free body to restore a classic, but altering the VIN is considered illegal.

In the May 1994 issue of Performance Musclecars, there was an article on replacing the cowl on a 1968 Chevelle SS convertible, and there was a disclaimer on VIN tag alteration.

Most late model vehicles that end up in salvage yards will have the VIN #s inspected, in case if the vehicle is stolen.

I would never purchase or take possession of a motor vehicle that does not have the pink slip, since retitling a motor vehicle is a PITA. There are vehicle title specialists that will assist anyone in obtaining a title, as long as the vehicle isn't stolen or hot.