Okay guys here's my dilemma. I am planning on swapping out my small block in place of some serious Rat power for Christmas. The problem is just how big to go? The car will be street driven nearly the entire time. I have two contenders for motors:

#1: 540
http://www.ultrastreet.net/540_675_engine.asp

and
#2: ZZ502
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?action=prod_detail&catid=120&pid=689

The 540 doesn't have any torque numbers there but I would assume they are pretty high. Call me crazy but I think traction might become an issue with such a huge motor. The GM motor states about 567 ft.lbs. I am looking for something that will give me great throttle response and basically haul a$$. Gas mileage isn't too big a deal (the wife has a Toyota, I figure that balances out the universe). Is 567 ft.lbs. enough? I know our 'Velles aren't exaclty lightweights and I want some get up and go.

The rodder in me says go 540 while the miser says save your money and get the ZZ502. Any ideas? Basically I'm a Big Block virgin--never experienced it but know I want it and want to get it right the first time! :D

Thanks guys!!

Let me start off by professing my non-expert status. With that having been said, your situation sounds like any other BBC upgrade minded "fool". (don't take that wrong).
Torque, HP, and cubic inches will initially hurt your wallet. Then they will hurt the weakest link in your drivetrain, then the next weakest, then the next, and so on until you have upgraded everything from the lug bolts, axles, rear gears, pinion, driveshaft (with U-joints), and transmission. Once these components are able to withstand the new forces of the BB, you will likely decide that there isn't enough power under the hood and you will want more.
I can only say it's a good thing that the first 150 horsepower over stock aren't given away free, or else I too would be addicted to Big Block power!
+++

You can get away with spending 9 grand on an engine while the wife drives a toyota? ;) Id be willing to bet you'd have traction problems with either one of those engines.I'd go with the 502 and use the extra money towards getting the power to the ground.

For $6,399 I got my 506" engine from a company called Speed-O-Motive, and it made 598hp, 570lb/ft of torque and a dyno was included in the price, actually mine had to get dynoed twice, but I paid no extra. Now it's 7,045 but still 100 more horses than the zz502 and the 502 isn't fully assembled, mine has everything needed to run "out of the box". The downside is you have to wait while they build it, but to me it's worth it for the quality you get for the price, and it runs on pump gas and will be my daily driver. Just a thought. The 540 is a monster though, if you have the money... Anyway, heres a link to where my first BBC is coming from: http://www.speedomotive.com/454_to_506_budget_master.htm

In most cases a 454 makes enough torque that it isn't usable in a street car. Anything bigger just makes the problem worse.

Originally posted by aubreyt213:
For $6,399 I got my 506" engine from a company called Speed-O-Motive, and it made 598hp, 570lb/ft of torque and a dyno was included in the price, actually mine had to get dynoed twice, but I paid no extra. Now it's 7,045 but still 100 more horses than the zz502 and the 502 isn't fully assembled, mine has everything needed to run "out of the box". The downside is you have to wait while they build it, but to me it's worth it for the quality you get for the price, and it runs on pump gas and will be my daily driver. Just a thought. The 540 is a monster though, if you have the money... Anyway, heres a link to where my first BBC is coming from: http://www.speedomotive.com/454_to_506_budget_master.htm Aubrey,

FWIW we just tore down the 406ci speed-o-motive short block in my friends 67' camaro to do some head and cam work. Some of the shortblock components we found did not agree with the information on the build sheet that came with the engine. The cylinders were all showing an unusual wear pattern. The piston skirts were scuffed up. We did a leak down test and most cylinders were showing ~15%. The number 1 cylinder was showing 55% :eek: This engine has been sprayed (150 shot) in the past so it's conceivable that what we are seeing is the result of inadequate ring end gap. The block is at one of the local guru machinists getting the once over. The car ran 11.3@118 in this shape, so it should run really good after we get it back together smile.gif

Honestly , I hope you have great luck with your new engine and this post isn't intended as a slam on speed-o-motive. This information is just provided as an FYI... I'll try and post back out findings once we hear back from the machinist.

Nice thing about the 540 is if it's built for low end torque you can run a nice highway gear and still kick off good times at the strip. I'm sure you can do this with the 502 also, it just depends on how fast you want to go, what the cars used for, and be willing to upgrade your entire driveline with either motor.

Matt

You said that "The car will be street driven nearly the entire time" now,what does that mean? (I'm not trying to sound like an a-hole)
Does that mean you want it streetable,or you won't be going to the track,or ?
If you have that kinda money to spend,the 502 would be your best bet.So,you've never owned a big block before? hehehehehe :D
You're gonna have fun graemlins/thumbsup.gif
In all honesty,anything bigger than a 454 on the street with regular radials will just fry the tires..as it is,with my mild 454 combo and 2.73's I can light the tires up doing 35-40 MPH in 2nd gear..in fact,some of the strips I leave your average Joe mild small block or whatever would have to come to a complete stop and punch it,and I get the same effect,only moving and going 30+ MPH.With drag radials,its a different story,and if you run a 502 or 540,etc. forget about your off the shelf raised white letter radials,as you'll be in for a slippery ride.

I'm conflicted on how to answer your dilemma. On the one hand I see that you pretty much answered your own question, on the other hand I say what are you thinking.

As a self professed "big block virgin" I would say you have the speed disease pretty bad. While you are at it why don't you get a blower and nitrous just to make sure you "get it right the first time".

Whenever you are faced with similar but still very different options for a nearly always street driven car you should always choose the smaller option; the smaller big block, the smaller camshaft, the smaller carb, etc. Small does not mean weak or slow - I'm sure even the zz502 is quite a power boost over your current setup.

Go with the eaZZy choice and never look back. If you do go with the bigger big block I am sure that will provide you with many more *stories* to share with us. Be safe out there with whichever option you choose.

Thomas

P.S. Dan is right, big block power is addicting. So be aware that a slippery slope awaits you in your quest to be the local capt'n insano. Too much is just right - until you can get more that is.

If you wanna daily driver type engine, that 540 is the wrong choice as it has a solid mechanical roller valvetrain.

Either way, a 427 or 454 is all you need for a strong street runner unless you have $$$ to burn and need bragging rights of a 500+ ci engine that won't get out of it's own way.

I agree with Mike...a properly built 454 will make more power than you can really use on the street and still be docile. Once you start building big power, expect to have to upgrade the rest of the driveline to handle the extra power. It's a never ending cycle.

Sit down and make a list of your goals and intended usage...this will help sort out which direction you should go.

If you have zero mechanical skills to build an engine (I asume as you picked two crate engines), then the 502 would likely be your best bet, just don't expect stellar track times with it without some tweaks and changes (assuming it will even see the track).

Breaking u joints with big block torque??? I just had my driveshaft shortened because of the Th400 swap,,my driveshaft had the original equipment u joints still in it...and thats after 2 years of running No/E full time,,,now I have more stall and had Spicer joints put in the driveshaft,,,but imagine all the stress those OEM joints took,heck the TH350 I took out still worked great,,,got a good deal on the 400 and wanted to get my ATI converter in there :D

i don't know what you have right now for suspension, but a stone stock 502 is not that difficult to hook up, IMO. i used to dust those 502 crate motors pretty easily with my 454, of course it wasn't real streetable like a 502, but it made more power. anyways, the point i'm trying to make is that with decent shocks, aftermarket rear control arms, and a slick or ET street is all it took for me to hook mine up. but i did find the weakest link in my drivetrain, a couple times, it was the posi-trak carrier. if you were after an all out race set up then i'd say the 540 for sure, but if i'm reading this right, i think the 502 is what you would probably be better off getting. and until you put slicks on it, a stock drivetrain will last a good while, provided it's in good shape now.

Guys, thanks for the replies thus far, they've been very helpful.

Some good questions have been presented. In reality the car probably would never see much track time. So what I am looking for is a good, powerful yet streetable combo.

The reason for choosing crate motors is not because I lack any mechanical skills--I built a blown 383 for my first motor. I chose crate for ease of installation and less hassle. With school keeping me so busy I just don't have the time to do a build up myself--although I've toyed with the idea.

I am well aware of the drivetrain needs as well. I have a 12 bolt right now. I am planning on swapping the tranny for something more sturdy no matter what I get. So I'm not just going to throw in a big motor and leave it be.
Any other input is appreciated!

Ben,

go with a good 454 or 468 with a hydraulic cam and a set of 3.42's or 3.55's. a 2600 to 2800 converter and you will have a heck of a time keeping traction on the street and have a blast.

If you have a particular ET in Mind for those times you do go to the strip, then that's a different situation.

Just because you have a lot of torque it does make sense to beef up other areas if you can, but it you set it up right parts will last a lot longer than one may think.

I agree with Todd about the solid roller for a daily driver..I would look to a hyd roller or a hydraulic flat tappet. I drive mine everywhere I can, but it is not my everyday driver. the 502 crate motor is a good street motor, but I beleive there are better long blocks out there for the money...but that's just my opinion.

Please consider a 496 b/c you can build one of them for less then a crate 502.. And you get alotta power outta one of them with no more then a good old CC 282S solid daily driver cam, imho..

pdq67

PDQ67- We should make you the unofficial advertisement manager for 496 motors! I say go with the 502 or any other 502. I definetly wouldn't use the "solid roller" version of the 540. i also believe too much torqe doesn't do much for you on the street. I would go with the 502 because they have a bigger bore than the 454 and you can always throw the bigger crank in it and have a 540 down the road(502 with a 4.25 crank=540) I built my 454 with traction in mind. I know I wont have any! :eek: So i decided to go with a victor jr. intake instead of RPM, i went with a bigger cam and had it ground on a 112 LSA for more top end, I went with more compression, bigger headers, and a little bit bigger heads (305CC not really bigger but compared to oval ports...)

I like it!!! I love it!!! I want some mor of it!!!! http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/69SSRat/finkn1n.gif

One of these shortblocks and a well prepped set of old GM 049 head castings is what I'm planning on. And a cam with something like 236@.050.

$3500 496 shortblock (http://www.competitionproducts.com/page89.html)

I'm biased but I like my 489/496. I have thought if I needed a block I would do a 540. Killer torque. I could re-use my H beam rods and crank. The 4.25 stroke with a 4.280 bore is pretty cool. I run 781 ovals and a small cam and the car is pretty squirley with me hitting the loud pedal. I wish I would have done an UD cam with .600 lift but it will break the tires loose at under 30-40 and hauls. It does hook up well but I'm waiting for the 10 bolt and small wheel studs to go. I plan on a 9 inch with 3.50 gears. I run a pro built TH400 Coan 2500 stall and a GearVendors OD unit for highway cruising. I think a 540 with a little more tame combo would be killer on the street. I would skip the 502 and go for an after market block. I have seen 540 short block for under 5K and put a good set of heads and way better than a 502. I would agree that the 496 is better than the 502. Just my 2 Cents.

I had thought about a 496 but figured why not just go a little more and get a 502? You guys have given me a lot to think about. I know that I could get that 540 with a hyrdaulic roller cam to make it more streetable. However, I was thinking, the 502 makes only about 100 ft.lbs. less of torque than the 540 but the 540 is many thou$and$ more! I don't know if it's really worth it. But it would me nice to have that power.
Decisions decisions. :mad:

Thanks guys.

You can buy the 502 short block also. If this was for me I would buy the 502 short block, get the cam that fit my needs, and get some heads.

I don't think the rect heads would be bad on the 502 but I think for a street motor a good oval port head would probably be slightly better. With today's aftermarket you can get some pretty stout oval ports that would work great for a street ride.

I strongly suggest you take todd's ( the other todd haha) advice to take some time and list what you are actually wanting to do. Then for the fun of it list out different combinations & opportunities and price them out. The one that best fits your true intentions with the right price then thats the one you want. you might be surprised you might actually get more for you money and be alot happier in the end. Trust me youve went this long with out a big block you can wait acouple of months to do alittle investigating. You will be alot happier in the end.


Todd

As an owner of a motor that makes *way* too much torque for the street, and a person whose motto is "Too much is just about right", I'd personally recommend a ZZ502.

There's a couple reasons.

First, and to me the biggest, is that a ZZ502 was designed, engineered and built by GM, and you can bet that it will run well right out of the crate, and continue to run well for many years.

Second, with increased HP and torque comes other issues, as pointed out by others (parts breakage, etc.). Another thing is increased cooling needs. Granted, you're going to probably need to redo some parts even for the ZZ502, but those needs will be even more with the 540 (but not much more).

Lastly, as already pointed out, you can only use so much torque on the street. If you want a cool looking and sounding motor, then go big, but just remember that the extra torque and HP is probably not going to be usable on the street. Whether or not you will be able to use it on the strip depends on how capable your chassis, suspsnsion, gears, etc. are, and how well they're tuned to the rest of the system.

FWIW, my next project will probably be a '69 Nova for my wife, and will probably run a ZZ502 for ease of use (her and me).

Gene got it right!!

That's just why I went 496 b/c of the cost!!

I have right at $3800 to $4000 in mine and that includes new Merlin cast-iron oval heads..

If I ever step up to another motor it will be something like 4.6"b x 4.375"s = 582 standard deck motor and make it look just like a 396 b/c I will go hog wild and get an aftermarket big bore block and to heck with traction problem's!!

pdq67