anyone else kind of surprised by how many #'s matching cars there are out there right now? and cars with 'documents'. seems like nearly every 70 SS on ebay is matching with docs. what i'm getting at is it seems a bit too common for these cars to be retaining originals drivelines and having documents.
i personally came accross (by accident) of two people who advertise and make a living off of restamping blocks. the faked docs biz seems a bit more covert, probably done more in dark basements reeking of cigarettes and bourbon.

the faked docs biz seems a bit more covert, probably done more in dark basements reeking of cigarettes and bourbon.

Not that Covert..
chevelle build sheet (http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZvinQ2dnumberQ2daged)
hemi cuda (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-MOPAR-REPRO-BUILD-SHEET-HEMI-CUDA-SUPERBEE-R-T-440_W0QQitemZ330119147843QQihZ014QQcategoryZ140684 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Trim tags (http://motors.search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=trim+tag&sacat=6000%26catref%3DC6&a39=-24&a38v1y=&a38v2y=&a10239=-24&a39705=-24&a10244=-24&alist=a39%2Ca41%2Ca38v1y%2Ca38v2y%2Ca10239%2Ca3801 %2Ca85%2Ca10246%2Ca33512%2Ca10241%2Ca10244%2Ca3970 5&pfmode=1&reqtype=1&gcs=13&pfid=2473&pf_query=trim+tag&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&lsot=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal)
Vin plates (http://motors.search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=vin+plate&sacat=6000%26catref%3DC6&fmmk=&fmmd=&fylo=&fyhi=&mppfqy=vin+plate&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search)

anyone else kind of surprised by how many #'s matching cars there are out there right now? and cars with 'documents'. seems like nearly every 70 SS on ebay is matching with docs. what i'm getting at is it seems a bit too common for these cars to be retaining originals drivelines and having documents.
i personally came accross (by accident) of two people who advertise and make a living off of restamping blocks. the faked docs biz seems a bit more covert, probably done more in dark basements reeking of cigarettes and bourbon.

Not surprised at all by this situation. All these "numbers" cars are examples of bolting together a combination of parts that (based on date stamps) could have been originally installed on the car. Many wanna-be enthusiasts / collectors don't get this fine point and will pay a serious $$$$ premium for a "numbers" car.

It is not hard to imagine a former drag car or even a junk yard rescue that once had nothing but the original frame and body being turned into a "numbers" car. But in the larger scheme of things all I can say is so what? All it really means is that the car conforms to the assembly specification / parts list / bill of material that was in effect as of the date the car was made. The dates of the parts included in my former drag car / junk yard rescue turned numbers car only confirm that the dated parts were made before the car was built and that they could have p-o-s-s-i-b-l-y have been assembeled into our hypothetical car in question at the factory. So What?

A car is original only once......... once and only once .....and people paying extra money for cars conforming to this nutty "could have been built this way" numbers standard are missing the boat in my opinion. The real problem today is there are almost no "Unmatching Numbers" cars out there today and that is BAD BAD BAD for the hobby. The focus is all on money today not on building a car and driving it and enjoying it a few hours a week.

Yes, it's very sad. It's just the same as all the fake SS's out there. When I first started in the hobby, before all the repro parts were available, I saw VERY few REAL SS's on the road or at car shows. Now, every single Chevelle you see is an "SS", and their owners will swear till they're blue in the face that it's real. All these frauds have just decimated the hobby but just like so many others, the perpetrators of these frauds are so pathetic that they only care about themselves and what they want, not the hobby or the values of authentic vehicles.
:sad:

Semi somewhat surprised.....seems like the classic car industry has become an investment that some are looking to retire off of. Hence all the clones you see.

Of course then again "numbers matching" is a term thrown around too often....used to mean "engine/trans/paint color/interior color and fabric..." was correct for the car per the cowl tag/trim tag codes.

Now it seems if the engine has the same last 6 digits as the vin then that's all that's needed to call it a "numbers matching car".....:clonk:

that's a good point jyd, some people don't really know the term #'s matching. it would be okay if they qualified it by saying "#'s matching driveline" or "engine is #'s matching", but you usually hear the term used in a way that would mean the entire car is matching.
the #'s thing is used by some to validate their super sport status as well. they point to the #'s matching BB and say, "there you go, it has to be a SS model because a malibu wasn't offered with a BB"

The difference, to me, comes down to how it is billed by the seller. Numbers matching means something different than "born with". There is absolutely no way to know if many of the components than are not VIN stamped are original.

For example, when I had a drivetrain matching LS6 that was missing the correct alternator, WP and distributor, I tracked down the correct distributor with an appropriate date code for the car's build, refurbished it, and installed it. It may not have been the "born with" distributor, but it was manufactured for the same car and could have just as easily been dropped in the motor when it was assembled as the distributor that had been removed prior to me buying the car.

Aside from talking to all of the previous owners, there is absolutely no way to know that this was not the same distributor it left the line with. It's a pretty fine point, but in the age of grand deception about money cars, the only way to know for sure any more is to get a complete owner history and talk with each previous owner. All the paper can be faked, you can find date correct components. If you want to really know, you have to talk to the owners - not just the guy selling the car - if you care whether the non-VIN components are original.

I personally don't care...one correctly coded distributor is as good as another. Nothing magical about the original...but I can see how someone would care and might price a car differently as a result.

This is what kills the value of documented Corvettes. I think i heard once there are more L88 Vettes out there than were ever produced. :eek:

When I bought my car it already had the SS emblems on it. The first thing I asked the guy is why did you put thoes SS emblems on it. Personally I wish I could take them off but they are drilled through the quarters. The SS emblems
dont mean squat to me as my car is every bit as performance enhanced as an
SS would have been, probably better because of todays better improved modern parts. So when people ask me if thats a real SS I tell them yes....
It's a Super Special.;) and when I'm blowin past you at 120 mph your not gonna know the difference anyway:D

Well, the corvette guys just decided to accept it and move on. As I understand it, a correctly stamped non-original motor is still considered "numbers matching." How long until Chevelles and Camaros reach the same state of affairs? Not much longer at the rate folks are "manufacturing" #s matching LS6s, L78s etc.

I'm SO glad that I don't give a damn about "numbers"

I actually prefer Malibus over SS cars now... way easier to cut up and modify without feeling guilty. ;)

There are people in the world that will do anything for a buck. Our hobby is no exception to anything with value. Like the people that produce/sell fake name brand merchandise, Rolex, Gucci,etc. This is no different except you can't put a Chevelle under the flap of your trechcoat and walk around Manhattan,NY trying to sell it. That is why research and studying the model you are interested in is important especially in these times. I've been in this hobby long enough to remember when "paperwork" and POP's were absolute proof of the car. I'm afraid that those days are coming to a close.