Gents,

I know this is all over the Performance section but I wanted to free the "body and pannel" thread for "anychevy" to go car-shopping. Sorry we've hijacked that thread a bit!

OK Brett, so I've gained some momentum getting you away from the "406 only" mentality at least as far as considering "406 or 454." BTW, nice burnout vid! Thanks for sharing. Your ride looks good. You'll see my ride soon. Hopefully wifey won't require my presence 20 May following her ankle surgery 17 May.

RE why go BBC?
Dennis down the street says "You'll be making so much power with the 454 that you'll never notice the extra weight and loss of handling." Dennis runs a 66 cast iron hi-rise on his 79 454 5-spd Elky and his ride does handle. Aluminum heads and Water Pump do help keep the wt down too but starving students can't always afford them. Neither can I as I have college-age kids and a wife hell-bent on remodelling every feature of the household. Anyway....build the BBC now with Iron heads, then when you have graduated college, upgrade to Aluminum heads before you get married!

On another note, I had reason this afternoon to drop by the house and return to work with the 68 RatVette. Got quite a few :thumbsup: on post. AFter work, stopped by to see Rod Leavett, gearhead/repair shop owner in the Lake City area. He has a built Mouse in his 68 RagTop MouseVette. Though he's seen under my hood a few years back, today all he could say was "Damn!" and "Nice." Am sure some of this was for the upgraded chrome goodies since last time but the rest had to be for the sheer size of the BBC tucked between the fenders. He was nice enough to make a few suggestions/fiddle with the mixture screws, etc. Customers getting gas walked up to peer at the FAT BOY under the hood.....shaking the ground and all.

At the show 20 May, take a look around. People will pretty-much walk by the cars with the SBC in them. No slight intended to all the SBC fans out there, just my observation. Line two identical 68-72 Elkys up, 95% of the attn will go to the Elky with the BBC.

Talk to FRYNTYR at the car show. Ask HIS advice. His answer begins with RatMotor. Since AHSOM Ben got his 454, I believe he said he's done with MouseMotors. Frank "Flink" has even chimed-in with RAT RAT RAT.
Make no illusions that a properly-built 406 will get any better MPG than a BBC unless ya go EFI. Think about a home-brew 427 however if the 454 idea sounds too run of the mill. Better yet, go for a ride in Frank's 69 or Darryl's 69....I'd take your for a spin in RatVette but I'll not bring the Vette all the way up there for a Chevelle/Elky show. Nor am I gonna let you come to my place to scope out my daughters!!!

Warmest regards,

George

May 18th... its on !

From,
A guy running a SBC (kidding)

BTW- Who else is running a SB

Pete,

I enjoy your posts.
Tell us how you made the decision to go 400 SBC.
Would you do it again?

I've had a few of each, SBC and BBC over the years.
I'd even bought a 400 SBC core to spiff and install into my Elky.
To build the MegaMouse I wanted required bigger heads to support the extra displacement and a whole buncha stuff. Woulda been powerful no doubt. I looked at the bottom line, cost.
I then looked at some remaining Rat Parts I had, the cost of other stuff, to me, cheaper to make a low-buck 454 then a high tech/high cost Mouse.
So, traded the 400 stuff, have been gathering BBC stuff since.

What are your costs and work done? Estimated power? Average torque?

George

well, the block was free. had a few inches of water in the pan and the pistons were rusted in. Luckily it cleaned up at .040 over


I used a probe rotating assy, brodix IK 180's (slightly worked), 5.7 rods, and a small base 280 comp cam with .512 lift (1.6 rockers) with about 10.5:1 compression.
I think after all is said and done i could have 7k into the engine...give or take... this includes machine work too.

I have a caddy 500 in the truck (with an insane th400 my buddy built for me)and although that thing has HUGE low end torque but its not to impressive over 4k rpm . ...still a blast to drive and have busted many parts. (although I realize this caddy is a whole different animal than a BBC)

really cant say how much HP or torque I have
I think over all the chevelle has a broader power range than the caddy and im not afraid to wrap it up to 6k rpms either

one thing i want to change is the trans. I have a th350 in the chevelle right now and hope to have my buddy build me a th400 for that as well.

if i were to do it again i would stroke it to a 420,... just for something different to build and a bit more of a challenge. I like the 400's, they make some decent power for SB's. I have no overheating, and runs at a steady 180 or cooler

I understand the big block thing (my 496 is slowly comming along), but I would like to put a 383 in my '70. Love the 7,000 rpm shifts in a high rev'n small block.

I vote BBC, and Mike as you've seen, mine hits 7000 4 times every 1/4 mile:D . Although it's just a little big block.

:waving: SBC here.

I bought the Buick with a '74 350 4bolt main truck motor in it already.
It had already been bored .030 and had flat top pistons in it. When I took the heads off there was no ring ridge and it still had cross hatching marks in the bores.

It did however have 1.72 heads on it... I bought a set of fresh 305 heads that had been worked over and 2.02 valves installed prior to pulling the heads off the block for $300. Since the heads were 58cc chambers I was nervous about the compression ratio on pump gas. Along comes George who responded to my craigslist ad. He had a pair of 1.94's with 76cc chambers on his Elky... I made a visit and went for a ride, and we made a trade. :thumbsup:

I had also picked up:
Holley 750 vacuum secondary like new $100
Holley dual plane Street Dominator intake NIB $120
Lunati Voodoo #60103 cam (intake .489/268 - exhaust .504/276 - 227in/233ex @.050) with lifters NIB $189
Crane Energizer aluminum roller rockers slightly used $100
Crane push rods NIB $30
1 5/8" ceramic headers new $130
Cloyes double roller timing set NIB $30
Accel HEI coil/cap/rotor NIB $80
Accel wires/plugs $50? (I can't find reciept)
Edelbrock valve covers used $30
Chrome air cleaner/filter NIB $25
Moroso high volume water pump never installed $40
Misc gaskets, fittings, nuts, and bolts $250
Heads I traded were $300 w/shipping if I remember right...

Grand total of $1474

I'm guesstimating 325-350hp at the motor but you guys probably have a better idea than me.

My goal when I started this project was to have something fun/easy to work on, low maintanence, with moderate hp. I knew I didn't have the cash to be the biggest and the baddest so I went with something I could be happy with.

The only big block I've owned was my '67 Mustang GT seen here:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2352880

The power was awesome, well, at least to me.:)
The 1/4 mile times weren't very impressive but I think that was due in large part to my G60-14 BFG belted bias ply tires (they were cheaper when I went through them every six months :D )
It only saw the track on two occasions and it turned a best of 14.04/88 (3rd gear topped out early and not enough time for 4th 3.00 rear) and that was with a total of 520lbs of passenger ballast. Me and an even bigger passenger. I know that seems laughable by todays standards but 25 yrs ago it impressed my friends. In thinking back I think most of my "other" races were won by the time 3rd was topped out and the brakes were applied scoring the win.

I do remember 1.5 hrs to change 8 plugs until I figured out that it was way easier to just take the valve covers off prior to pulling the plugs. An FE block in a '67 stang with power brakes/steering/ shock tower braces/and monte carlo bar didn't leave much room under that hood.:sad:

I was surprised when I started paying attention to big blocks in chevelles/elkys because there was soooo much room! :)

LOL you'll have to excuse me, I think the cold meds kicked in LOL

Where are you Brett ? And what's the budget on the 406 you were thinking about building ?

I understand the big block thing (my 496 is slowly comming along), but I would like to put a 383 in my '70. Love the 7,000 rpm shifts in a high rev'n small block.
The general rule is "the shorter the stroke the more RPM" for eg. 302s, 327s and 427s which are great for track work, but the bottom end and valve train has to be up to the job as well.
But when you considder that most engines BB or SB built for the street or strip have the peak HP somewhere in the 5500-6000 range, an engine capable of 7000 or 8000 is unnessary and costly to build.
You start getting into the balanced, 4 bolt, steel crank and mechanical or roller cam territory which gets real expensive ! Not to mention heads !
More cubes = more HP and most of the time your driving around in the 2000-3000 rpm range on the street so although there's no sweeter sound than a BBC @ 7000 it cost alot to build an engine to do this all day long.
450HP @ 5000 is pretty easy and cheap to build these days in either a 454 or a 427 and ask yourself this
"do you really need more ?"

I traded $300 worth of parts/ discard Vette stuff for a rebuilder 30-over 454-2 bolt, cast crank/flattop slugs/truck rods w/ 781s and a cast iron intake, an aftermarket HEI stripped of most components, and old CalCustom finned valve covers.

1968 #063 castings are low-mile take-offs from the RatVette, figure $300 for these if I had to buy them (Cope Bros valve job, big springs)

Perf RPM A-G favor repaid
3310 Holley out of the non-used parts bin
H-stamped/long slot rockers free from neighbor Dennis
8mm blue ign wires from Dennis
Pushrods donated by Aaron

Gonna trade the 30-over block and 781 heads for a 40-over block, new 40-over Hyper-E small dome slugs and rings.

Got a better cast std/std crank for $50
Lookin to run a Summit Budget 228/238 cam at .540/.540" lift 114 deg LSA, same as the GMPP cam, $73.88 w/lifters this month.

Basically a 1970 LS-5 shortblock with a much better intake, an aggressive cam, lots more attitude

450HP @ 5000 is pretty easy and cheap to build these days in either a 454 or a 427 and ask yourself this
"do you really need more ?"
Hell yeah!!!!!!!!

Hell yeah!!!!!!!!
I agree:secret:

I hate to admit it but I think Brett's little mouse would outrun my rat. Especially if he has a 5 speed. I might be able to beat him off the tree but I think he'd run me down. Now when I get that new direct bolt in 5 speed Muncie with the OD that Wally on the trans forum has been talking about it may be a different story.

As the former owner of a sb 406 car I now have a 454 & I ain't lookin back!

BB all the way. Even though my little 350 mouse in the welfare nova will eat a large percentage of rats out there, it is so radical compared to a similiar HP output bb. The 454 in my Laguna would run just as fast of times in my nova, as the 350, if I put that motor in the nova but only has a flat tappet hydraulic cam, duel palne intake, only a 2200 stall, and runs pump gas.

I wish I had the Laguna over here for this weekend for a few joy rides. I gave it to my father-in-law to play with for a while (cheap storage) and is Eastern Washington right now. 4400 plus pound car that rips out mid-to-low 12 second blasts in the 1/4 at 111-113 MPH. Add a little race fuel and it'll run a little harder ( my creative compression ratio games at work, try almost 11-1 on pump gas, it'll do it but really likes a treat of good stuff. haven't ran it at the track with good fuel yet)

Just think, knock 1500 lbs off the laguna and you have my nova. That's a 1 1/2 second quarter mile improvement per what the experts say. That would put my nova into the 10's with the laguna motor.

Man, i really gotta find a way to tag along with George when he comes up, so I can checkout your rigs... I forgot all about that laguna. If I remember right you sent pics last year of it launching with the front wheels catching a bit of air... Impressive for one of those big boy rigs... bad A$$!

As the former owner of a sb 406 car I now have a 454 & I ain't lookin back!

Hey Dan, I see you are running a Voodoo in your car and the Stealth manifold, awesome. I put a Voodoo in the laguna 454 and have been very impressed. I'm sure your ride rips too. Did you see the Dyno results of someone that did a motor with one of the small-to-mid sized Voodoos a few days ago. I think it was on the performance thread. Impressive with no tuning yet. It was like 425 HP and 500 plus(somewhere in there) foot lbs of torque. Undercarberated so I would put money the HP would jump up alot if the carb was upgraded. A 3310 out of the box won't give optimum HP.

Hey Dan, I see you are running a Voodoo in your car and the Stealth manifold, awesome. I put a Voodoo in the laguna 454 and have been very impressed. I'm sure your ride rips too. Did you see the Dyno results of someone that did a motor with one of the small-to-mid sized Voodoos a few days ago. I think it was on the performance thread. Impressive with no tuning yet. It was like 425 HP and 500 plus(somewhere in there) foot lbs of torque. Undercarberated so I would put money the HP would jump up alot if the carb was upgraded. A 3310 out of the box won't give optimum HP.
I pulled a 3310 off & put on an 800dp. haven't tried it yet.
the car feels like it should run low 13's or high 12's.(from my 10.30 Nova exp.)

I put the bit larger 60204 grind in the laguna. Pulls very hard over 6000 and I haven't run it past 6500 yet but it never started nosing over. I put titanium retainers and a very stout single spring set-up on the heads to try and help the valve train run higher with out floating. I think it worked.

The stall is a bit low for the power band but it has so much power every where it doesn't hurt it to much down low. Traction is still limited with drag radials and with the 2200 stall so it's fine,,,at least fior the father-in-law. I know with better traction the 4000 would 60 ft much better but how good can you 60 ft with that heavy of a can anyways? LOL!!! The drive feel is much better with the 2200 than the 4000 stall I had in it at first. Never got to try it at the strip with the 4000 stall. It's more street driven and the 62 year old father-in-law didn't enjoy the feel as well with the 4000. Loves the 2200 though.

As you've seen, mine is a stick..........can't wait to get sideways in 2nd!

Gents,

Looks like the score is BBC 12, SBC 2 there Brett85.

I know there are more car guys between Oly and Blaine that have not chimed in. Pete's SBC 400 build-up price is pretty close to what I ended up with on paper, somewhere between $6000-$7000. For the wt penalty of the BBC, I can have 450 horses and 500 ft lbs, torque curve flat as the Udairi Desert in Kuwait for about 2 Grand.

Ben,

Maybe AFTER the SP Show on the 20th drift down the street to FRYNTYR's place.

Darryl,

Looks more like a 1-day trip with the wife's surgery just a few days before the show. How about swapping parts afterward? The show ended at 3 last year.

I hate to admit it but I think Brett's little mouse would outrun my rat. Especially if he has a 5 speed. I might be able to beat him off the tree but I think he'd run me down. Now when I get that new direct bolt in 5 speed Muncie with the OD that Wally on the trans forum has been talking about it may be a different story.


I don't know what he's got in the rear, but I can peg my speedometer, with more to go.

All I'll say is, 3:08's. I hook better, and I don't run out up top as fast either, going to the higher gears has really changed my car. Much more enjoyable to cruise.

Gents,

Looks like the score is BBC 12, SBC 2 there Brett85.

I know there are more car guys between Oly and Blaine that have not chimed in. Pete's SBC 400 build-up price is pretty close to what I ended up with on paper, somewhere between $6000-$7000. For the wt penalty of the BBC, I can have 450 horses and 500 ft lbs, torque curve flat as the Udairi Desert in Kuwait for about 2 Grand.

Ben,

Maybe AFTER the SP Show on the 20th drift down the street to FRYNTYR's place.

Darryl,

Looks more like a 1-day trip with the wife's surgery just a few days before the show. How about swapping parts afterward? The show ended at 3 last year.

keep in mind, nothing in my build was reused from old builds...everything is new except the alternator and engine block

sure does empty the wallet it fast dont it

gilby246,

OH, nothing wrong with new parts, they just cost more!
I'm not denying I had a few high-buck things lying around and some friends willing to donate a few of their spares. And a few trades.

I suppose re-use of some things could have kept the cost down substantially.
Then again, not much in a 400 upgrade that you can re-use....
most heads are too small for a 400
SBC pushrods are seldom up to big cams
most buy a new crank/rods/piston, whole rotating assy.

I wanna see this car of yours.....just rode in "gotago's" 69 SS 396. Nice freeking ride!

George, thanks for the kind words. Here's a pic with my new rear meats. I love the look!!
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/medium/frontright.JPG

gotago,

The pics do not do your car justice. Nice freeking ride!!!
I had a blast. Two things could have made this afternoon better;
1. A controlled testing facility without MPs. I'd have liked some add'l power runs.....don't think the Airfield guys would have been happy with us....
2. The 69 Chevelle coming home with me!

What does wifey think of your evil toy?

Wow, a whole thread for me!? You guys are making me blush....

Ok, here is the story. I have a lil' 350 now. It would be an easy change over to just put in a bigger small block. I wanted to build a 406 from a mag article. It has about 450 hp and 500 ft lbs I think. It was done by chevy high performance and is a 406 with scat crank and dart iron heads. Supposed to be a budget build. I am looking at spending around $4k. I feel a big block would cost more with new headers and shroud and exhaust mods. The small block would drop right in, be lighter, and I can use the new aluminum wp I just installed. I have the tremec 5 speed and 3.73 gears. I just need more power.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/6113_chevrolet_406_ci_small_block_build/

To summarize, the question is not should I go big block or small. The question is can I build a big block to have 450 hp or more and 500 ft lbs or more for the same price that I could build the 406. This has to include the cost of headers, exhaust mods, shroud, and the loss of the new water pump I just bought. So what is the answer? If it is possible I will go big block. I really dont think its possible, but I dont know everything, teach me! :beers:

Wow, a whole thread for me!? You guys are making me blush....

Ok, here is the story. I have a lil' 350 now. It would be an easy change over to just put in a bigger small block. I wanted to build a 406 from a mag article. It has about 450 hp and 530 ft lbs I think. I will try to get the link for you guys later. It was done by chevy high performance and is a 406 with scat crank and dart iron heads. Supposed to be a budjet build. I am looking at spending around $4k. I feel a big block would cost more with new headers and shroud and exhaust mods. The small block would drop right in, be lighter, and I can use the new aluminum wp I just installed. I have the tremec 5 speed and 3.73 gears. I just need more power.

To summarize, the question is not should I go big block or small. The question is can I build a big block to have 450 hp or more and 500 ft lbs or more for the same price that I could build the 406. This has to include the cost of headers, exhaust mods, shroud, and the loss of the new water pump I just bought. So what is the answer?

Personally, I don't think you could handle a big block...:boxing: :boxing:

Personally, I don't think you could handle a big block...:boxing: :boxing:

Oh I could handle it. You mean you couldnt handle it if I were faster? :noway: I do want it to be a little scary when I put my foot into it though! :yes:


Ok guys. I just got a job for the summer, looks like the engine build is a GO. That means I need to know this decision soon, it takes time to get a block machined. Also I can get a 400 that is a 509 casting for $300. It needs to be bored 30 over, which is perfect for the 406. I need answers!!! So lets get to work folks! :hurray:

I need answers!!! So lets get to work folks! :hurray:
Comon guys, you've all gone silent :D Brett has questions he needs answered !
Whos got a 454 block they want to sell ?
Anyone got a rotating assembly ? A good 396 crank and rods even ?
What about a pair of early closed chamber oval port heads ?

Oh I could handle it. You mean you couldnt handle it if I were faster? :noway: I do want it to be a little scary when I put my foot into it though! :yes:


Ok guys. I just got a job for the summer, looks like the engine build is a GO. That means I need to know this decision soon, it takes time to get a block machined. Also I can get a 400 that is a 509 casting for $300. It needs to be bored 30 over, which is perfect for the 406. I need answers!!! So lets get to work folks! :hurray:

another 406 build from CHP

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0401_chevrolet_406_ci_engine_build/index.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0306_chevrolet_406_big_block_torque/

Comon guys, you've all gone silent :D Brett has questions he needs answered !
Whos got a 454 block they want to sell ?
Anyone got a rotating assembly ? A good 396 crank and rods even ?
What about a pair of early closed chamber oval port heads ?

400 blocks, 454 blocks, cranks, whatever. Doesn't everyone have a few extra laying around. Besides my stock of bb's, I believe I have four 400 blocks and 15 plus 350's.

Hey, if you're gonna pay that much for a 400 block, why not buy a 454 block?

Oh I could handle it. You mean you couldnt handle it if I were faster? :noway: I do want it to be a little scary when I put my foot into it though! :yes:


Ok guys. I just got a job for the summer, looks like the engine build is a GO. That means I need to know this decision soon, it takes time to get a block machined. Also I can get a 400 that is a 509 casting for $300. It needs to be bored 30 over, which is perfect for the 406. I need answers!!! So lets get to work folks! :hurray:

A job...Now there's no excuse for you not to pony up $20 or so and become an actual paid TC Member....:p
That's funny...:D

400 blocks, 454 blocks, cranks, whatever. Doesn't everyone have a few extra laying around. Besides my stock of bb's, I believe I have four 400 blocks and 15 plus 350's.

I gotta come and hang out with you!! Between you and my new Summit Speed Card, I'm divorced. I want to build a 496 and preserve my 396. Of course the wife and the rest of the world doesn't know about this.

What does wifey think of your evil toy?

Its still a sore subject after 5 years. Oh well. She has yet to drive it and has only riden in it about 3 times. Its my mistress..................

gotago,

Ha! That part about your car being your mistress!
Wifey has ridden in RatVette less than 10 times in 16 years.
She calls her Yvette, yellow Vette, MY mistress.
Nice parallel!
Wifey did drive my 85 Vette 4+3 trans '91-94
She had a 66 Stang 289 4v 4-spd after HS

FRYNTYR,
Sounds like you can supply Brett if he builds a mouse or decides to do the right thing and build a BBC. Now looks like gotago is interested in some of the goodies. Gee, all ya need is 40 more dudes and you'd have way more room at your place when all the engines are gone! Glad the Welfare Nova is kinda legal now. Maybe they wanna buy machined blocks from you. Gonna hold a tour SUN?

A job...Now there's no excuse for you not to pony up $20 or so and become an actual paid TC Member....:p
That's funny...:D

Lets not get this thread confused with helping Brett and pointing out all of Brett's flaws... :(

Im not making millions like you buddy, just building an engine this summer is going to be breakin' the bank.

Hey, if you're gonna pay that much for a 400 block, why not buy a 454 block?

It has been magged already so its supposed to be its crack free. I agree, that is about the price for a 454 block. But then after all the other parts in the end, I think the 400 would be cheaper.

If you want a 400 block that bad or a 454 block, visit me at the Smokey Point show before you buy one. It's difficult for me to part with much but I do have a few 454's I'd part with. My youngest son has a std bore 400 2 bolt block he'd sell for $175.
If you choose bb, I likely have a good core that would do the trick.

Oh ya, I know a fella that can hot tank, bore and hone, square deck, install cam bearings and soft plugs for $300. bb or sb

Oh ya, I know a fella that can hot tank, bore and hone, square deck, install cam bearings and soft plugs for $300. bb or sb
Well Brett ?

Brett if you're scared, say you're scared;)

Seriously though I totally understand the money situation. The only BBC parts I have laying around that I'm not going to use again are my stock exhaust manifolds. If I had some parts laying around that I couldn't use, you'd be welcome to them.

If you want a 400 block that bad or a 454 block, visit me at the Smokey Point show before you buy one. It's difficult for me to part with much but I do have a few 454's I'd part with. My youngest son has a std bore 400 2 bolt block he'd sell for $175.
If you choose bb, I likely have a good core that would do the trick.

if you go with a 400 and need a crank I got a stocker you can have.....the condition is unknow so you would want to have it checked out.

Lets not get this thread confused with helping Brett and pointing out all of Brett's flaws... :(

Im not making millions like you buddy, just building an engine this summer is going to be breakin' the bank.


Brett,

I'm on a tighter budget than you probably! Remodel, daughter off to college in the fall, wifey taking computer courses....though making good money, seems gearhead stuff is a "fix as necessary" category. :( I'm glad I had a major brake job on the Elky but that set me back for speed parts, etc~~~
You are well along on having your Elky sorted out with nicer paint than me, the TKO 5-spd already installed, etc. I've got an engine to complete, gears to get, the gotta have the diff upgraded with all my new parts. Heck, if I was rich, I'd have been done already and have Aluminum heads!

No, this is not Brett-Bashing. I save that for the Private Messages! :hurray:

When I started the thread, I'd hoped to hear from more 406" Chevy guys for their advice. I'm just waiting for some more 400 SBC Gurus to come up with the Miracle Mouse, a semi budget 406 build-up that would be competitive cost-wise vs an upgrade to BBC. Looking for some defender of the SBC to chime in here.
Sounds like gilby246 is the only 400" SBC player up here....
Nice of him to offer up a crank:thumbsup:

You keep talking SBC to BBC Conversion costs. Here is something else to consider. When going from 350 to 400 SBC, you need the external balance harmonic balancer and in your particular 400 external balanced flywheel. BTW, good stuff isn't cheap. Then whole rotating assy (unless you use gilby246's crank), then heads, then valve train, then, then, etc.

Something I've not brought up in some time is your desire NOT TO BUZZ the engine. Hmmm, thought the std rule of the game was SBC=buzz the engine up there. If you intend to keep the 406 down to 6000 rpm, you can keep costs down;
gilby's crank
350 5.7" rods with good rod bolts
with lower rpm range, you can make a butt-load of power with the more affordable 180cc intake runner heads. Some 882s with charity pocket port AND larger valves, especially the EXHAUST valve upgrade work in a pinch. VORTECs work great but your old intake won't work.....
If you are gonna keep the rpms down, no need buying fancy pants heads....waste of money.

So few parts from a pedestrian, run-of-the-mill 400, typically the block is the only thing re-used. Gilby will tell ya, and his bottom-line shows that he bought pretty much the rest of his stuff new. I'm too cheap/poor for new. Most BBC stuff is suitable for HP use.As I'm finding out, better to buy a COMPLETE engine. My CHARITY 454 was more of an ASSEMBLY than a complete engine so I've had to source several things. I still got a good deal for my engine by trading old Vette stuff I wasn't using.

Please consider buying FRYNTYR's most complete 454 with accessories and brackets. A quick freshening with rings and bearings/block service, perhaps switching to some Hyper-E slugs or mild compression forged slugs to complement 781 or 049 heads.....
Visit with FRYNTYR at Smokey Point

Cost of 400 Balancer and flywheel about the cost of SBC to BBC conversion

George

Brett,

I'm on a tighter budget than you probably! Remodel, daughter off to college in the fall, wifey taking computer courses....though making good money, seems gearhead stuff is a "fix as necessary" category. :( I'm glad I had a major brake job on the Elky but that set me back for speed parts, etc~~~
You are well along on having your Elky sorted out with nicer paint than me, the TKO 5-spd already installed, etc. I've got an engine to complete, gears to get, the gotta have the diff upgraded with all my new parts. Heck, if I was rich, I'd have been done already and have Aluminum heads!

No, this is not Brett-Bashing. I save that for the Private Messages! :hurray:

When I started the thread, I'd hoped to hear from more 406" Chevy guys for their advice. I'm just waiting for some more 400 SBC Gurus to come up with the Miracle Mouse, a semi budget 406 build-up that would be competitive cost-wise vs an upgrade to BBC. Looking for some defender of the SBC to chime in here.
Sounds like gilby246 is the only 400" SBC player up here....
Nice of him to offer up a crank:thumbsup:

You keep talking SBC to BBC Conversion costs. Here is something else to consider. When going from 350 to 400 SBC, you need the external balance harmonic balancer and in your particular 400 external balanced flywheel. BTW, good stuff isn't cheap. Then whole rotating assy (unless you use gilby246's crank), then heads, then valve train, then, then, etc.

Something I've not brought up in some time is your desire NOT TO BUZZ the engine. Hmmm, thought the std rule of the game was SBC=buzz the engine up there. If you intend to keep the 406 down to 6000 rpm, you can keep costs down;
gilby's crank
350 5.7" rods with good rod bolts
with lower rpm range, you can make a butt-load of power with the more affordable 180cc intake runner heads. Some 882s with charity pocket port AND larger valves, especially the EXHAUST valve upgrade work in a pinch. VORTECs work great but your old intake won't work.....
If you are gonna keep the rpms down, no need buying fancy pants heads....waste of money.

So few parts from a pedestrian, run-of-the-mill 400, typically the block is the only thing re-used. Gilby will tell ya, and his bottom-line shows that he bought pretty much the rest of his stuff new. I'm too cheap/poor for new. Most BBC stuff is suitable for HP use.As I'm finding out, better to buy a COMPLETE engine. My CHARITY 454 was more of an ASSEMBLY than a complete engine so I've had to source several things. I still got a good deal for my engine by trading old Vette stuff I wasn't using.

Please consider buying FRYNTYR's most complete 454 with accessories and brackets. A quick freshening with rings and bearings/block service, perhaps switching to some Hyper-E slugs or mild compression forged slugs to complement 781 or 049 heads.....
Visit with FRYNTYR at Smokey Point

Cost of 400 Balancer and flywheel about the cost of SBC to BBC conversion

George

Like any other engine its how you plan to use it. I have a stock 400 crank, and flexplate with stock 5.7 rods sitting in my garage that i was going to use on my 408 build. I decided i wanted an engine i could beat the crap out of and not worry to much about (and be able to upgrade to power adders later). thats why ended up going with new forged stuff with ARP bolts and studs.
a lot of people say that 400s are prone to overheating too but probably all depends on your cooling system. Im using an aluminum water pump,180 stat with the radiator and shroud out of my 79 GMC half ton. the engine temps have never gotten above 180 and usually runs cooler on cold days. The aluminum heads were not drilled for steam holes but i increased the water passages in the head gaskets to 3/8. although my 509 block had the extra water passage in the bottom center where some 400 blocks dont (my buddys 511 block does not)... i think you can drill this out though

on one end im sure if built correctly stock stuff could handle quite a bit of high reving and power as long as you used good bolts/studs to hold it all together. Its low cost and will make a decent runner.

on the other side of that is the high dollar one. Mine was costly but Im helping a buddy that has built a 406 roller (with many other little goodies). this one we are working on makes mine look cheap.

the only thing i can suggest is to build an engine the way you want it the first time, even if it takes longer than planned.

its to bad- I just gave away another 400 crank, heads, pistons/rods two weeks ago too.
If you decide to go 400 let me know... i have some stuff kicking around (stock stuff)

Brett- Big block or small block, it looks like you might end up with one affordable motor by the time it's done. I just feel bad that I don't have any donor parts for you because I'd love to contribute to the cause...:thumbsup:

Wow guys, thanks for all your comments and generosity. George has been there since the beginning trying to convert me, I think hes doing pretty well. As to his "budget" issues, I am sorry but hardly consider our cases the same. You are getting to spend all kinds of money on great stuff like remodeling and getting to put your daughter through college! ;)


Oh ya, I know a fella that can hot tank, bore and hone, square deck, install cam bearings and soft plugs for $300. bb or sb

Darryl-I think I might just have to come see you at Smokey point, I dont really see how I could turn down your offer. With the cost of machining that low, I may have to go big block :D . I appreciate you possibly letting one of your blocks go. If I am going big block it will have to be bigger than a 402, 454 would be perfect!

Well Brett ?

Sorry I did not get back and post, I had been busy all weekend. I ain't scared, just observing and taking all the information in. :p

Brett- Big block or small block, it looks like you might end up with one affordable motor by the time it's done. I just feel bad that I don't have any donor parts for you because I'd love to contribute to the cause...:thumbsup:


Frank, dont feel bad. Even if you could contribute, I would never hear the end of it. I would be forever in your debt and dont know if I could live with that. :noway:

IF I am going big block it will have to be bigger than a 402, 454 would be perfect!

And what's wrong with a 402??;)

And what's wrong with a 402??;)

Uh oh, here we go.. :) Its bigger than my 350, so I'm not saying a word!

Uh oh, here we go.. :) Its bigger than my 350, so I'm not saying a word!
402 are great but if you're going to go BB and do it from scratch ? You might as well get the bigger bore to begin with.
I think you may get overheating issues with a 396 or 402 block bored to 4.25 ? But maybe it depends on the block ???
My personnel favourite is a 427, shorter stroke, internally ballanced, and 396 cranks are pretty cheap :D

Wow guys, thanks for all your comments and generosity. George has been there since the beginning trying to convert me, I think hes doing pretty well. As to his "budget" issues, I am sorry but hardly consider our cases the same. You are getting to spend all kinds of money on great stuff like remodeling and getting to put your daughter through college! ;)





Frank, dont feel bad. Even if you could contribute, I would never hear the end of it. I would be forever in your debt and dont know if I could live with that. :noway:

Am I that much of a d**k... Don't answer that...:yes:

If I read Brett correctly, if only going to a 402, he might as well in his mind go 400 SBC. Needs/wants more cubic inches to offset the engine weight.

So, if BBC, wants 454, not 402 in order to have the extra 50-something cubic inches....454 cost less to build than a 402 also. Hmmmm, ANYCHEVY, that magic word 4-2-7 again manifests itself. Think this would be viable considering Brett does have a 5-spd manual......

Heck, the parts I'm bringing up to Darryl sound very like what Brett needs....
454 2-bolt block and some 781 heads.....add one of the 8 or so 427/396 cranks Darryl has and Brett would be well on his way. This is what is in RatVette...except 4-bolt/steel crank

Gee, I feel like I'm putting Brett up to doing a TP job on a house

Heck, the parts I'm bringing up to Darryl sound very like what Brett needs....
454 2-bolt block and some 781 heads.....add one of the 8 or so 427/396 cranks Darryl has and Brett would be well on his way. This is what is in RatVette...except 4-bolt/steel crank

Gee, I feel like I'm putting Brett up to doing a TP job on a house

I think only the owner or a former owner of a 427 can realy appreciate that wonderful combination :D

Why would a 5 speed be especially good with a 427 as compared to a 454? I would think I would want lower end torque. Also I am not toooo keen on revving the piss out of an engine. I like the idea of serious tire melting torque just above idle. Am I thinking correctly here? Also is a 427 really that high of a revving combo? Is there really much of a reason to go above 6k and arent you limited by valve float or is it structural?

Any reason not to go 468? That way I could compete with dick, I mean Frank. :D

Also, I am not one to skimp on parts. If I need to buy a new/better part I will. While getting used stuff is a great deal, I really want to make sure I have a reliable engine that isnt going to blow up. I'm pretty sure you guys arent steering me in that direction, just wanted to make sure. If I am unable to do it RIGHT, I wont do it at all.

427s are a lot of fun in a vette, bordering on the rediculous really, but lots of fun :D
Low down, tire burning, stump pulling, axle snapping torque you want ?
You got overdrive on that 5 speed ?
Then you'll be happy with a 454 or bigger.
How's this combo ?
454 -2 bolt, cast crank, 10.5, closed chamber oval heads, hydraulic 272 duration 515 lift cam.
(You could go bigger on the cam but not necessary with those heads)
Performer rpm, 750 dp, headers with 2-1/2 exhaust
That's pretty low buck, aprox. 450 + hp with 500 foot lbs torque
Thoughts ?

I do have overdrive, .64:1 ratio to be exact. With 3.73 rear gears I am turning 2200 rpm at 80 mph in 5th. Also in the rear my 12 bolt has superior axles and eaton posi so hopefully I wont be snapping any axles. The tko+clutch is rated up to 600 ft lbs of torque supposedly. Also I have an aftermarket driveshaft supplied from Inland.

Any reason I would want more hp verses torque for the street?

Any reason I would want more hp verses torque for the street?

No, did I sudgest that ? :confused:

No, did I sudgest that ? :confused:

Not exactly, isnt a 427 generally considered more of a hp less torque engine when compared to a 454 because of the smaller stroke? I just assumed because you were suggesting 427 that maybe there was a reason I would want that over a 454 as far as street driving goes. So what do you think I should go with? 454 or 427 or 468($)? :confused:

So what do you think I should go with? 454 or 427 or 468($)? :confused:
Yeah, it was more of a $ thing. 396/402 cranks, ballancers and flywheels are usually a little cheaper.
Seems everyone has them lying around ? :D
With your tranny and gears, a 454 or 468 is the way to go and you don't need it bullet proof !
You'll probably never rev it past 4000 ! You won't need to.

Not exactly, isnt a 427 generally considered more of a hp less torque engine when compared to a 454 because of the smaller stroke? I just assumed because you were suggesting 427 that maybe there was a reason I would want that over a 454 as far as street driving goes. So what do you think I should go with? 454 or 427 or 468($)? :confused:

If you look around you can build 489-496 for the price of your 406.

I have the basic start of a 540 for about $2800.00 into it so far. I am going a little farther though as I will be getting AFR heads in the future.

If I went with the 049s I have tucked away I would be under $4k easy.

Too bad you need it this year because as soon as the 540 gets done next spring I'll have a spare solid roller 454 looking for a new ride :D

I am in no way against a 454 and would love to stuff in a 4.250 stroker and run the piss out of a 496 but when someone asks what you have in your car and you say"427" it kinda has a mistique about it :)

Brett, you want good , reliable parts. It's as simple as a set of good ol TRW forged pistons, pin fit and mounted on a set of Thumb rods with good rod bolts. Cast or steel crank, balance it, Clevite bearings, a set of sealed power moly rings, and a HV pump. You got a bottom end that will take any abuse you want to give it.
For a 427 with 781 or 049 heads, use L2268 pistons. For a 454 use L2349 or L2465 slugs. Any of these will give you in the 10-1 plus range in compression depending on decking of the heads and block. The one in my 69 is closer t0 11-1.
While adding bigger 2.19-1.88 valves in the heads does help, it does cost more money and I can tell you I did not do it to the 427 in my 69 chevelle, and it doesn't cost me thing to perform that work. Mash the throttle in 1st or second while rolling at any speed and it'll light 'em up. Bang third and forth,,,,rubber burning. Drop the clutch at 60 MPH,,,,,,,tires blaze'n.
All I have for a cam in mine is a Isky 280 Mega-cam. hydraulic flatappet.

You guys are getting me all excited!

Darryl,
I think it was the part where you said, "Mash the throttle in 1st or second while rolling at any speed and it'll light 'em up. Bang third and forth,,,,rubber burning. Drop the clutch at 60 MPH,,,,,,,tires blaze'n" ...
that won him over!:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

Darryl,

JWA has that 68 Chevelle "Old Blue" that I sent you a pic of 2 weeks ago.
Both are very fne examples of the species.

Brett,

While I have 4-bolt mains and a steel crank in RatVette's 427, I seldom really need the extra strength. I'm seldom North of 6000 rpm, think only 2x to 6500 not merely to beat somebody, wanted to HUMBLE them.

ALLCHEVY's RatRecipe works for 454 nicely, closely mirrors what I'm cooking-up for the 70 Meeno. You know I plan to run the bargain-basement .540/.540 228/238 @ .050" Summit cam. Darryl's 427s are like what I have in RatVette except a more aggressive cam.

I got into it a bit with a fellow enthusiast on El Camino Central last year so I'll be very careful what I say.
1. Cubic inches rule! Big stroke = more torque. Cubic inches=torque. Average torque moves your car down the track. Naturally some rpm potenential in the engine (we're not talking about a big Diesel here or a 500-inch Caddy) and gearing have a large part to do with this
2. Chevelle/El Camino 454 and Automatic is pretty much a given.
3. 454s make so much grunt that in my humble opinion, they make too much torque for a 4-speed car to ever hope to hook-up if you try and launch hard, we're talking street-strip cars, not race-only. I know this is gonna cause a stink by me saying this. I know with street tires that I can launch pretty hard with the 427 in RatVette.

Yes, 427 68 Meeno does sound wicked, but would a 460/468 be better?
Difficult to give up 35 cubic inches to run a 427....
OTOH, buzzing a BBC right up there is a bunch of fun, wicked sound!
Darryl assures me, even cast 396/427 Cranks will buzz up no problem.
Brett, basic HD springs are about all you need to about .540 lift.
Much above that, you have to clearance the top of guide/valve stem seal to the bottom of the retainer.

Lots to talk about at Smokey Point

All this horse power talk is making me thirsty...I'll bring the beer...:beers:

Cast 396-427 cranks,,,,,,,never seen one break,,ever! My first 10.90 motor had a WELDED cast 396 crank and I woulod shift at 7600. Ran that set up for almost three years before changing to my motor set-up that ran my chevelle to a 10.62. I upgraded to a steel crank at that point.

I STILL HAVE THAT WELDED CAST CRANK FROM 20 years ago! GOD I'M A PACK RAT.

I'd like to share my mini keg of Bud Light as well.

You guys are getting me all excited!


Brett, let me take you for a ride in my "budget" 468.

454 .60 over
cast crank
truck rods
KB hyper domes = about 10.5:1 compression
781 heads stock valve size
Crane Powermax 286, matched valvetrain
Edelbrock performer
Holley Street Avenger 770 jetted 74/84 with the black spring
Mallory unilite, 8.8 wires
Flowtech 1 3/4's headers
TH400 TransGo shift kit (drilled big) B&M 2400 holeshot
12 bolt 3:08 eaton posi

The head core's are some of Darryl's best.

It was built on a budget, then slowly added to. Alotta the stuff on it could've been gotten used, but I just went new. You really can do a mild BB, and get the same power of a built SB. And you won't have to wring it up, to get that power.:yes:

FRYNTYR
If I read the ISKY 280 Mega Cam data correctly:
.565/.565", 280 adv dur, 232 deg dur @.050" 108 lobe centers
While this is pretty big, I thought you had something bigger in there
RatVette runs an old Erson HI FLO
.542/.542" 235/235 deg dur# .050" and 112 LSA
I also note you recommend the largest two Voodoo grinds...

I'm running a CB 290H Comp in mine and it has fairly good street manners.
578 lift 232/232 110 sep. It's got good get up and go with a nice chop to it...:thumbsup:

I'm running a CB 290H Comp in mine and it has fairly good street manners.
578 lift 232/232 110 sep. It's got good get up and go with a nice chop to it...:thumbsup:
I guess I'm a conservative when it comes to cams ? sometimes "less is more" I think over 550 lift is little excessive for the street, but it's been awhile :D

FRYNTYR
If I read the ISKY 280 Mega Cam data correctly:
.565/.565", 280 adv dur, 232 deg dur @.050" 108 lobe centers
While this is pretty big, I thought you had something bigger in there
RatVette runs an old Erson HI FLO
.542/.542" 235/235 deg dur# .050" and 112 LSA
I also note you recommend the largest two Voodoo grinds...

When you hear my chevelle it sounds bigger than a .232 duration as well. The 108 lope sep makes it a bit choppier. I advanced the cam another 4 degrees as well which really cranks up the cylinder pressure. This motor has a cranking compression of 235-250 which I've never, ever had in any other motor. I've had 220-230 in one of my 13-1 circle track motors but nothing as high as the 427 in my 69.

On the Voodoo grinds, the second biggest has very decent manners for it's size. It still runs the power brakes on the Laguna and has a much milder chop than my 69. The 60204 has the following, plus I also advanced this one 4 degrees.
Advertised Duration Duration @ .050 IN/EX Gross Valve lift IN/EX LSA and ICL RPM Range
276/284 233/241 .554"/.572"/ 110/106 2200-6400
Hydraulic: "Hot Street" cam, likes 2800 converter, Hi-Rise type dual plane intake with 850cfm carb, headers, 10:1 compression and 3.73 gears. Likes up to 200HP nitrous.
He he,,,,, likes nitrous,,,,,: )

Been thinking of trying a thumpier solid in the 69 but the current motor runs so strong I can't bring myself to change it. I'll have to pull the motor and leave it complete and try another one of my engines with the larger solid.

This is for the street so I will want a cam that runs well but also has a descent sound to it. Also when I upgraded to disk brakes I kept it manual just incase I ever got a cam that was too large. So no need to worry about vacuum.

As to the issue of too much torque with a manual, isnt that what the throttle is for? Wouldnt I really want lots of torque and just have to manage it using throttle as I go up the rpm band? If I can mash it and not spin the tires doesnt that mean I dont have enough torque? :confused:

Starting work tomorrow. [:hurray: as well as :(] Doing auto cad stuff for a mechanical engineering firm that specializes in HVAC. Hope to learn something from it!

[QUOTE=Brettd85;1348105]
As to the issue of too much torque with a manual, isnt that what the throttle is for? Wouldnt I really want lots of torque and just have to manage it using throttle as I go up the rpm band? If I can mash it and not spin the tires doesnt that mean I dont have enough torque? :confused:
[QUOTE]

Yep, you'd be correct. If you can't mash the throttle and the tires come unglued, then you have a pig. I expect to have the feeling of overwhelming power that makes me feel the need to lift, but I stay in it for the rush.

As to the issue of too much torque with a manual, isnt that what the throttle is for? Wouldnt I really want lots of torque and just have to manage it using throttle as I go up the rpm band? If I can mash it and not spin the tires doesnt that mean I dont have enough torque? :confused:

The only time I'd worry about too much torque is if you had sticky tires, BBC, high RPM launches, good clutch, and a 30+ year old Muncie aluminum case transmission. I have a 33 year old Muncie in mine and I'm scared to death to put sticky tires on it for the strip even with my "little" 408. The Muncie is the weakest link in my drive train. If I had the supercase, it'd be a different story.

If you have the tremec, I wouldn't sweat it. And if it breaks, it needed upgraded anyway:D

The only time I'd worry about too much torque is if you had sticky tires, BBC, high RPM launches, good clutch, and a 30+ year old Muncie aluminum case transmission.

Mark- You just described my car except you forgot to mention the tall gears (3:31's). It was fun with my old tires when I could smoke 'em at will but it is nice now rolling at 10-30mph and mashing it and actually launching forward like a rocket...:D

Brett- Torque is the funnest part about my car. Darryl is correct, "That's what a throttle is for".

Mark- You just described my car except you forgot to mention the tall gears (3:31's). It was fun with my old tires when I could smoke 'em at will but it is nice now rolling at 10-30mph and mashing it and actually launching forward like a rocket...:D .

Frank, to tell you the truth, I was sorta waiting to see how long your muncie was going to last with your new sticky meats.;) I also have 3:31s in the rear but I'm not pushing near the torque you are. What clutch are you running?

Brett,

Forgot Frank has a 4-spd.
So, perhaps 454s can be managed with manual transmissions on the street! Must be the newer rubber or suspension mods....
Just my experience 454/4-spd cars sit and spin the tires.....
I beat a few BBC 4-spd cars in very short runs with the 68 Nova and mild 312 inch (307 40-over with 327 Camel Hump heads, 10:1 CR, ISKY .450/.460" cam) Mouse power because I hooked, had little car wt, 10-inch converter, and 4.56 gears. Of course I lost a few too.

Feathering the pedal to gain traction is not a means to consistancy.
Sure you CAN HOOK but this becomes an art rather than a science like drag tires on the track. RatVette makes more than enough grunt to break em loose. I am blessed, for some reason the Vette manages to hook quickly.

FWIW, consult with Dr FRYNTYR about what he has, your goals, your funding limitations. Yes, too much torque is just enough!

I agree with ANYCHEVY, BBC cams on the N side of .550" are a bit on the edge for valvetrain longevity. I know many of the street grinds are bigger than this, just have not seen much data on how long these thumper cams last. See all the posts about valvetrain noise in several of the newer grind cams hi-lift short dur cams. I know I don't want to have to go into an engine for surgery and to fix valvetrain components.

Just a little ol' M-20 behind the 427 with 325-50-15 stickys out back.

Just enough tire give on the street to keep from breaking stuff. It will not go to the strip with the 4-speed. It'll break. I pulled the 4-speed out when it was running 10's (the trans now in the welfare nova) but it was boring. Had to put the 4-speed back in.

A 427 backed my the wide ratio M-20, hmmmm, same as RatVette! Alas, I have no 4.56 gears in her.

Whatcha cooking up for RatRecipes for Brett? 427? 454?

Just saw this on craigslist.... sounds like a decent deal...

rebuilt 454 perfect tow motor - $2200

Reply to: sale-331487832@craigslist.org
Date: 2007-05-15, 12:22PM PDT


2 bolt 454, rebuilt by DG Machine, less than 12,000 miles. 9.1 compression
coated pistons, truck rods resized with ARP bolts,new balancer and flex plate,
balanced. 049 heads everything new, comp 268 cam and lifters, performer intake,
roller tip rockers,every bolt new, motorhome oil pan.
removed from suburban , sold it with smallblock and kept this just in case
my new truck needed it, but now I am selling do to other project.
360- 337-2858 days 360-509-9005 eves

Greg,

When ya think about it, if dude has the paperwork on it, a pretty good deal!
Not a SCREAMING DEAL but pretty good....$1600 would make it a very good buy. DG Machine has a good rep I believe.....
Undercammed by most of our standards as we're sickos for big cams.
However, that cam is a good match for the Performer intake.

Not so under cammed if low-midrange torque is your objective. I'm running that cam with 101cc 215 heads and 10:25.1 compression and when she's tuned properly, she'll fry the tires.

Of course I'm just running a baby rat...........................

Mark,

GOTCHA! I knew you had the same cam....just pickin' on you!
Never said it was a slouch.....
Thing is, something fairly lumpy in a 396 is really tamed by a 427 then tamed considerably by a 454.
In a 454, we're talking off-idle power to midrange with a 268 where as in a 396/402 it makes a strong midrange cam.
I can't wait to see the diffenence in your car after the re-jetting.

Son working on To Kill a Mockingbird essays. I'm off to the back yard to cut tree roots.

Gents,

I got the JULY 07 CHEVY HIGH PERFORMANCE mag. Cover story SBC 422ci VS BBC and 505 ci, $6500 bucks, pump gas. Should be amusing.....

Gents,

I got the JULY 07 CHEVY HIGH PERFORMANCE mag. Cover story SBC 422ci VS BBC and 505 ci, $6500 bucks, pump gas. Should be amusing.....

Sounds a little high priced and not very reliable! I think I am going to go 454 here, but dont get excited George, you havent won yet! :noway: Just doing a good job! :yes:

Mark,

GOTCHA! I knew you had the same cam....just pickin' on you!
Never said it was a slouch.....
Thing is, something fairly lumpy in a 396 is really tamed by a 427 then tamed considerably by a 454.
In a 454, we're talking off-idle power to midrange with a 268 where as in a 396/402 it makes a strong midrange cam.
I can't wait to see the diffenence in your car after the re-jetting.

Son working on To Kill a Mockingbird essays. I'm off to the back yard to cut tree roots.

You'll have to wait a tad longer as I'm not gonna make Godfathers on Wed, the wife said "Aren't you going to the show this weekend? That's a lot of gas at 3.60 a gallon." So I'll have to take you for a spin this weekend.

I had a 454 out of a motorhome in my old truck and it had a lopey idle stock. I never did know what cam was in it but the motor was awesome!! I gave the truck to my BIL and he's still running it. If I can find a 454 block cheap enough, I'd start on a 496. Of course this is very far down the road, got to get my OD tranny first and then start on my build. Anyone know how to hide a motor and bills from your wife??

You could hide the motor in my Buick, and I have a shredder! :D

Frank, to tell you the truth, I was sorta waiting to see how long your muncie was going to last with your new sticky meats.;) I also have 3:31s in the rear but I'm not pushing near the torque you are. What clutch are you running?

Centerforce Dual Friction. I really haven't done a major dump with the new tires...kinda afraid of what might go SNAP...:eek: :eek: :eek:
Anyway, I'll try a couple monster launches real close to my house, after the show this weekend, just incase I have to push her back into the garage.

Mark,

OK, no GodFather's this evening.
I called to your work number for your cel number this AM. Might be good for you to call me so I can capture your cel number for SUN. (If things work out).

How to hide car guy bills?
I dunno! I got busted by the wife (accountant and Computer Info expert) last weekend for my purchases over the last few months! Too many debit card receipts. Even an Arthur Anderson/Enron accountant could follow my audit trail........
496 is a noble cause.....
In the build-up below, 505" stroker, 2-bolt main block with main studs and cast stroker crank....

Brett,

So I won't have to use the thumbscrews on you to make the move up to BBC Country, eh?

That Chevy High Perf article was a piece of work.....the BBC was a 454 block bored and stroked to 505", ported Rect Port Factory heads ($1100),
modest cam in relative terms, about 250* duration, 10.5:1 CR, design was wide flat torque curve.

The 422 SBC got some good 215cc heads, think the cam was in the 260* plus
territory, design was to come up with PEAK NUMBERS, not street freindly.

The Rat beat the SBC in peak numbers, closer than you'd think due to the different engine design goals in spite of the CID differences. However, the average numbers of the BBC were far superior. I encourage anybody with drag sim software to input both engine data into a car and run them.....

For $6500 bucks, they coulda/shoulda built a 540 and "schmoked" the living daylights outa that SBC. Think they could have even run Edelbrock heads for that abount of cash. Will re-look the article this evening. In fairness, they did not get a good 422 outa that deal either.....ok for race but definately not even a street-strip engine. WTF!!!

Mark,

OK, no GodFather's this evening.
I called to your work number for your cel number this AM. Might be good for you to call me so I can capture your cel number for SUN. (If things work out).


PM me your cell and WILCO

I built a 505 short block for a guy last year with a eagle cast crank, Eagle I beam rods and speed pro-coated hyper pistons(with rings and bearings). Bought the rotating assembaly off ebay new for $800. He then added a set of summit brand aluminum heads and a .590 lift hydraulic roller set-up.
Still waiting a year later to see it run but hasn't even fired it up yet.

Maybe a storm will hit and he'll need to sell it for pennys on the dollar so i can purchase it.

I think he is well under $5000 into it. Should easily be a 650 plus HP.

FRYNTYR,

Would be SWEET to get that 505" motor off your pal...especially since you built it.

Brett,

I saw on the other thread you asked to be bugged on this thread re BBC vs SBC. Also noted you mentioned/hinted at/implied you were gonna gather up some BBC parts! Good for you! Persistance on my part plus the other fellas chiming in......

Some food for thought:
I wrote Mr 4 Speed Chris. He's the master of the Low-Buck 454. He told me to not bother removing the open chamber 781 heads with big valve off my Vette. He told me to go ahead, run the #063 closed chamber heads as planned. I'll have a rather hefty 10.58:1 CR...just where FRYNTYR like his engines at. I had thought that the cam I intend to run, .540/.540" 228/238 deg dur@ .050" Summit Value Cam to run out of steam at 6200 rpm, Chris says his experience with them, more grunt, shift at 5500 or the car will run slower. He also says I do not need main studs...not gonna make more power than the stock fasteners can handle. So, still gonna be a cheap engine!

I am excited about whatever it is my daughter ordered for me should be delivered today (gearset hopefully), cam and lifters would be OK too, even seat covers and seat foam buns would be nice! Also excited I'll be at the show doing the male-bonding thing, and will be there at Darryl's afterward to assist you in BBC shopping. Believe me, this is the BEST THING you could do.
Nice Elky you have, the TKO 5-spd rocks, then a BBC.....should you ever sell the car, this is what buyers will look for.

If daughter did buy me the gearset, than FRYNTYR says he'll toss them into my Elky after the show...so ya better get your BBC shopping done quickly!
FYI, I'll be bring a cast 454 crank, will let Darryl look at it....see if you can use it.....will also bring some other minor BBC things for you.....

Cool George. You have been great to give me all your time! I think you mostly took me under you wing as a challenge, didnt want to see another one lost to the small block world. I appreciate your persistance and help. Can't believe we havent even met yet. Excited for Sunday, this experience should teach me alot. :hurray:

Brett,

Perhaps we met last year....I trooped the line with flyers for a car show in Tacoma later in the summer. I recall seeing your Elky next to Frank's rather throaty beast. Same colors more or less as mine...you've already seen the pics.....just put a 70 front end on your ride...

I'll be the one with the ugly wheels, Ben hates 'em. May have to get the Drag Star wheels and BFG tires from Matt outa Oly. Thing is, he's in Cali temp job.

Challenge? Kinda. Thing is, I did all this a year ago....wanted to save you from yourself. Besides, nothing like a RAT to fill under the hood. Our rides will get little attn at the show due to SBC.

George

I did just see a complete 496 with some 049 heads for $4,500. I bet you could knock the price down to $4k and whip all our asses...:yes:

I did just see a complete 496 with some 049 heads for $4,500. I bet you could knock the price down to $4k and whip all our asses...:yes:

Used or new? I kinda like the idea of building my own...

well, i've been reading through this thread at the invite of kettbo and it looks like i'm way late in the game.
well anyway, i'm the owner of a 1970 Chevelle Malibu with a little 383 under the hood. it was a 307 car before someone blew it up and replaced it with the 383. i've done some minor upgrades to it while i was stateside. but i was just a little dissapointed with my times when i first purchased the car.
heres the skinny:
383 built by S and S motors in Spokane
appear to be regular stock heads
balanced rotating assembly
an elgin cam with very mild specs
msd pro billet dist.
holley street avenger 670cfm
some no-name long tube headers flowing out to some noisy glasspacks
th350 w/2200 stall converter
10 bolt rear with one tire fryer diff. the gears feel like 3.00

best time at Pacific Raceways is a 14.5 at 93mph

i was going to build another small block for it but i've been looking at cost.
for the power level i want, it would be just as expensive as a big block.

my pops is a die hard SBC guy and thats all i've worked with. i want to try something new. plus, my thought is that the chevelle was meant to have a fire breathing rat under the hood. moving 4,000lbs for a 1/4 mile in 10 seconds is a hell of a task. i've seen small blocks do it but at what cost and how long did they last?

^^^ looks like we're converting another one!:thumbsup:

ya I know.......I'm from the east coast, but I like this thread!:yes:

Welcome to the NW fellas! I am in the same boat Mighty mouse, just already bought parts. Your not far behind me, start looking for deals.