hey guys,

well, i have my "how to rebuild BBC" book and it said to torque the oil pan bolts to 14 ftlbs (7ftlbs on the timing cover ones). well, i did that and the freaking gasket ripped.

i put rtv on one side of the gasket (block side) like the book told me too and i tried not to put too much rtv on.

how do you guys install them (rtv on one side or both) and what do you torque them to?

i was thinking of maybe going 7 ft lbs and then if i get a leak once its in the car, tighten it up a little more.

by the way, this is an 1804 4 piece gasket...

thanks

tighten the bolts till you see the gasket start to pooch out, about 1/16" is enough. More important is the condition of the gasket rail on the pan. If the bolts have been over tightened on it before the rail will be pushed up around the bolt holes. This will cause the problem you're seeing along with other sealing issues. Check it first.

hey tom,

what does pooch out mean? do you put rtv on one or both sides? happen to have a torque spec?

thanks

Jeff,
I do not use rtv on oil pan gaskets, it makes them slide out and rip. That being said, I dont think I have ever used a torque wrench either. Just use my little 1/4" drive ratchet and snug them up by feel.

I have to question what torque wrench you are using too. If I was torquing something to 14lbs, I would be using my 1/4" drive IN/LB torque wrench. Most 3/8" drive wrenches are not accurate at that low of a setting and usually will not even "click".

Since you have to get a new gasket anyway, get the FelPro marine vesion, a little more expensive, but much better material. Not as forgiving as cork though if everything is not flat.

Pooch means to poke out kinda like a beer belly is a little pooch. Or like a babys belly pooches out over his diaper.

Nice description Rod!!! LOL

Hey Bill,

no RTV at all? no RTV on just the sides or the rubber ends too? ive got the 1804... the sides are not cork... they are black vinyl looking things.

so snug things up and thats it? are the bolts easy to get to once the engine is in the car? that way, if they are loose, i can snug them up a bit more...

thanks

Get the one piece gasket and be done with it. I did that with my sbc, and no problems at all. I will do the same on my bbc build.

well, the reason i went with the three piece was because some were having problems with the 1 piece BBC gaskets...

id like to know more from Bill who seems to not use RTV...
thanks guys

Jeff,
The only place I use rtv is right where the side pieces meet the rubber ends, and just a little dab there. The gasket you have is the same as the marine one so it should be fine. I am betting that you are over torqueing it considerably. Other than on intake manifold end rails, I probably have not used a complete tube of RTV in the last year. You must be certain that all the surfaces are straight ! GM did not use RTV, Mercruiser does not use it ..... why should I :D

thanks Bill

one last thing... how snug is "snug" using a quarter inch rachet? about as tight as carb stud nuts? tighter? do you watch for the "pooch" that Tom was talking about?

thanks

by the way, i looked at my pan and some of the hole were dimpled up (over tightened). i took a quarter inch thick flat piece of metal and hammer and worked the dimples down and its better, but aint perfectly flat. or do they need to be perfectly flat or will the gaskets help out?

thanks

Jeff,
The black gasket you have needs an almost perfect surface. It sould actually be better to have the holes down some (towards the ground) so that you have to draw them up tight to the gasket surface. It kind of hard to explain how tight is correct. Just something you have to have the feel for.

is the one piece gasket any better for an imperfect surface?

what really sucks is that this is a brand new moroso pan.

ill keep working it, but dont want to weaken the rail too much.

any ideas on how to help it seal if its not totally flat?

did you east coast guys go to bed?

prolly went to bed. My thing about watching the gasket pooch out is aimed at the typical cork/rubber Fel-Pro gasket. I'm not familiar with that black one you're using. Personally, I use the one-piece unless there's some reason not to. Like it's not available for the engine I'm working on.

hey tom,

i thought you were east coast too. now i see AZ...

so, do you know if the one piece felpro rail gaskets thicker than the three piece rail gaskets?

with the rubber 3 piece, will the gasket take up some of the irregularities in the pan rail? ive got those rail dimples pretty flat, but i know they arent perfect.

thanks

I'm 100% in agreement with BillK. I use a 1/4in drive rachet for both pan and valve cover bolts and tighten them strictly by "feel".
I've been building engines for 40+yrs and I also tighten MANY fasteners (including head and main bolts) by feel until they get to the point that final torquing is required (about the last 10lbs). I've never had an engine fail because of improper torquing. Come to think of it, I've never had an engine failure due to any improper assembly.
Don't use alum heads on a boat engine that goes to the lake regularly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well, if the pan bolts are supposed to feel like valve cover "torque," then i can handle that.

what id like to know is if the one piece is any better at sealing than the 3 piece or if theres a way to somehow determine how much "crush" the 1804/marine gaskets have and how much irregularity the can handle in the pan rail.

id hate to have to buy a new pan (300 bucks) but if a little dimple in the pan rail is going to keep this thing from ever sealing properly, then maybe thats what i have to do...

any thoughts?

thanks

Use the Felpro 1 piece blue rubber high performance gasket, you will never need to buy another oil pan gasket again.....ever. No leaks, no Worries.

i dont know about no leaks... thats one of the reasons i got the 1804 (4 piece) was cause a lot of guys were having issues on the 1 piece (1884R??).

i guess that this is just gonna have to be trial and error... the pan holes are as straight as i can get them and when i get the new 1804, ill put rtv at the corners, try not to overtighten and give it a shot...

also, does anyone know what pressure the oil is under in the pan? i wouldnt think that its at 60 psi or anything right? if its not that much, then why do these things leak??

thanks

mostly due to seapage.

is one side more prone to leak? on my pan, the right hand side has a piece welded in that looks like it catches the oil before it hits the pan/block interface. is that what that is for?

The Chevy Service Manuals say 80 inch lbs for the rails and 55 inch lbs on the front cover. That's what I've used...

so i thought of something...

if i put the pan on without a gasket and tighten the side rails down, do you think that will "flatten" any dimples caused by over tightening??

thanks

Had an engine builder once tell me to use a thinly spread out strip of 3M yellow weatherstrip adheasive on the oil pan rail. Stick the gasket to it and use the pliable brown permatex (never hardens) that comes with a brush applicator, on the block side of the gasket, let it set up a little and install. Never had a problem with it leaking. That brown permatex stuff is excellent when you don't need a thick silicone seal. Anyone have an opinion on this method?

jks67SS396, the pan gasket is not exposed to oil pressure as such, just the slop and the stuff being thrown off the crank at high speeds.

I've never had a one-piece leak, don't know what with that. use it, use a flat washer under the bolt heads. it will handle a lot of varaince in the pan rails. There's a little steel sleeve around each bolt. the bolts tighten up to the sleeves and give the proper crush on the gasket automatically.

80 inch pounds sounds right, a little over 6 ft-lbs. I don't know where you found that 14 ft lbs deal.

Can someone tell me why they dont build the rails on oil pans out of thicker material? If it were thicker wouldnt you be able to really tighten it down without the pan rail warping and causing leaks? Seems to me you could torque it and never worry about leaks. There has to be a reason, what is it guys?

Can someone tell me why they dont build the rails on oil pans out of thicker material? , what is it guys?

Money :)

If that is the real reason thats lame. If our engines are designed to leak, shouldnt we pay a little more for a pan that doesnt?

yeah, stefs pans are what, 800 bucks or so? they probably dont leak....

the newest pans on gm hi-po motors are totally redesigned, so they are fixing it, i've used the hi buck fel-pro blue one piece and i'd never buy anything else, to me, they're just that good. the second best tip i can give is to clean all surfaces as good as you can with alcohol, wax and grease remover, water with dawn detergent, whatever you have around (i use 90% rubbing alcohol, cheap and effective), it helps, i feel most confident about the seal when the surfaces are so clean the rubber gasket catches on them and wont slide, tacky almost... (clean your hands before installing also)...mostly, whatever oil pan/seal issues you have, get them completly and absolutely solved before installing the motor in the car.
the welded in piece on one side is probably a baffle to keep oil from sloshing up during cornering.

mr toad, i use the brown permatex stuff on the cover side of my cork valve cover gaskets because of fairly frequent removal, keeps the cork intact and adhered to the cover and as long as i dont over torque it, i never have to hassle with it...ever.
good luck

Interesting topic. I have been building engines about as long as BillK and DZ. I always use a paper thin layer of RTV (Ultra Blue) on both sides of the pan gaskets. I then tighten the bolts down enough to remove air gap with slight clamping pressure. Once the RTV sets up I finish tightening the bolts. Pretty much eliminated any problems I had when putting them on dry.

Any method that doesn't leak is a good one. :) I would say that #1 cause of leaks is improper torquing.

Racing thats pretty much the same as what i do I use the 1 piece rubber gasket with very thin layer of ultra copper seal (rtv) on each side and a dab on each corner tab , with an aluminum pan and snug it down let it set for a few hours then hand tighten with 1/4 inch drive ratchet! never had one leak after this.

I just replace the gasket on my 66 BB and judging from this thread I probably used too much sealant. Where the rear gasket meets the rail gasket squeezed out about a 1/4" on the drivers side second bolt from the rear. Is that normal? Will it leak?