Has anyone ever tried one of these crate engines? I am wondering how nice they work.

Dave

Has anyone ever tried one of these crate engines? I am wondering how nice they work.

Dave
=
Dynoed one about a year ago for a customer, nice piece.
He seem pretty happy with it
Here are the numbers off my dyno, one of GM's engines I have dynoed I like to call my "reality check" engines when you start seeing stupid high numbers from some places,, :D

GM single plane Vortec intake 12496822 , stock HEI, Pro Systems 780 carb, 1 3/4 headers 34 deg adv, (lost power at 32) no gain at 36
200 deg oil, 170 water,
Lambda avg 12.4 (11.8-12-2)
RPM HP TQ
3000 241 422
3500 298 446
4000 337 442
4500 385 449
4800 413 452 Peak Torque
5000 425 446
5500 431 412
5700 434 400 Peak HP
6000 428 374

Wow thats impressive, not bad they seem like a pretty mild set up.

Not bad at all. I heard that those motors are underated.

I think the compression on those motors are right at 10 to 1 and a 222* @ .050 cam.

Wolfplace, those are Fastburn heads? Don't they not respond to the tradiational timing curve? Were you about to run the can?

:thumbsup:

whats impressive to me is the torque curve ...... or should I say the torque LINE ... :D

Everybody dumps on that engine and says they could build more power for less $$$. I think that it's pretty impressive, especially considering it's all new parts, 4-bolt mains, pm rods, roller cam & lifters, aluminum heads. Don't know how you could assemble that kind of hardware and add machine work for $5500.

I agree Mike. Only knock I have is. You did not get the fun of assembling and most of the GMPP motors are smooth as silk. So if you like a lump, you need to look else where.

=
Dynoed one about a year ago for a customer, nice piece.
He seem pretty happy with it
Here are the numbers off my dyno, one of GM's engines I have dynoed I like to call my "reality check" engines when you start seeing stupid high numbers from some places,, :D

GM single plane Vortec intake 12496822 , stock HEI, Pro Systems 780 carb, 1 3/4 headers 34 deg adv, (lost power at 32) no gain at 36
200 deg oil, 170 water,
Lambda avg 12.4 (11.8-12-2)
RPM HP TQ
3000 241 422
3500 298 446
4000 337 442
4500 385 449
4800 413 452 Peak Torque
5000 425 446
5500 431 412
5700 434 400 Peak HP
6000 428 374

Hey Mike, impressive numbers from the dyno. Just curious why do you think that in some of the catalogs that sells the ZZ383, they recommend setting the timing at 29* total? I have just never understood that. Thanks Brian...

Not bad at all. I heard that those motors are underated.

I think the compression on those motors are right at 10 to 1 and a 222* @ .050 cam.

Wolfplace, those are Fastburn heads? Don't they not respond to the tradiational timing curve? Were you about to run the can?
=
Yes, Fastburn & they are an excellent head. Compression is advertised as 9.1
I don't understand what you are saying about underrated?
I would say the power was right in line with advertised which is 425HP, 449 lb ft depending on who you want to believe, I have seen different numbers.
I was 20 low in hp & 15 in tq with the same correction factors pretty good given two different dynos.
Kind of verifies my dyno as I see the same results with the BB crate engines too.
I use STD like most performance shops & GM uses SAE which is about 4% less which would make GM's numbers 442 & 467
I was actually a little under that but this is with no tuning except timing & probably a different header than GM used although they were the same size pipe.

What do you mean traditional timing curve?
The engine liked 34 total. I don't have a clue where the initial was, I don't set timing at idle.:)
===

Brian,
Don't know, this one liked 34

I meant underrated based on that people have told me they make more power than advertised. However, maybe I'm wrong. Your the engine guy and more info than I.

Can you explain SAE and STD? I'm a little confused by your wording.

Traditional timing curve, bad term. Seems that alot of the locals that have run the fastburns tell me that they don't like 36* as most SBC do. They like around 32 and 34 as you mentioned.

I asked about the vacuum advance, becuase most of the GMPP have to much vacuum.

I've dynoed that engine and it was pretty nice. We used a dual plane that was much better than the GM recommended piece. We upped the cam and it really picked up the HP as well.

It liked about 34 degrees and I don't think it minded 36.

I meant underrated based on that people have told me they make more power than advertised. However, maybe I'm wrong. Your the engine guy and more info than I.

Can you explain SAE and STD? I'm a little confused by your wording.

Traditional timing curve, bad term. Seems that alot of the locals that have run the fastburns tell me that they don't like 36* as most SBC do. They like around 32 and 34 as you mentioned.

I asked about the vacuum advance, becuase most of the GMPP have to much vacuum.
=
There are two common correction factors in use, one is STD the other is SAE
STD uses 60° & 29.92" of mercury
This is the one used by most performance shops as it yields higher numbers
SAE uses 77° & 29.60" & will yield about 4% lower power numbers

Most OEM's use this as well as some shops, especially chassis dyno shops

It would be nice if everyone went to the latter correction as it is more "real world" but this is going to be a hard sell as HP numbers seem to sell engines :sad:
And being at a 4% disadvantage is not going to be real popular.

I won't even get into the "interesting numbers" we all know & love but when you see these "generous" I can dream can't I numbers,,,,,
I for one like to come back to some honest stuff like the GM engines as a comparison

If GM builds a 425-450HP give or take 383 & the one in the magazine is 600 with an intake, cam & carb at anywhere near the same RPM,,,, it is probably a good idea to question the results.;)

Trust me, 600HP with a street setup small block really ain't that easy,,

And yes, you are correct, the "fastburn" as well as a number of efficient chamber heads including the Vortec tend to like less advance under power but each combo tends to be different
If you change cam or intake or both the advance it wants may change slightly too.


I've dynoed that engine and it was pretty nice. We used a dual plane that was much better than the GM recommended piece. We upped the cam and it really picked up the HP as well.

It liked about 34 degrees and I don't think it minded 36.
=
Hi Doug,
Yep, I agree, a good dual plane would be a much better choice on this engine or most up to 6000-6300 or so
I can see this engine being an easy 475-500HP deal with another 50lb ft with little work.
The one I did I was sort of fortunate as the customer bought the same intake that GM used to dyno with otherwise I would have put an Air Gap on it & the test would not have been as good for comparison for me.
Kind of cool to have a few "reality check" engines to draw on when the numbers hit the fan :D

Mike do you think that carb was resonsible for some of those #'s? If you just had a run of the mill 3310 on there or something else, are the #'s gonna change that much?

Mike do you think that carb was resonsible for some of those #'s? If you just had a run of the mill 3310 on there or something else, are the #'s gonna change that much?
=
What numbers?
In this case I doubt it would have made much if any difference
GM dynoed the engine with the same intake I did, Same diameter header with 33" tubes & a 4" collector
My headers were much shorter in length with less collector. They are a "sprint car header"
They used a Demon 750,
I used a Pro System 750 out of the box that was set up for a small solid roller 10.5 400" engine I was doing.

I think the biggest difference if you can call it that would be the header.
And the fact the carb was pretty rich.
I feel I would have seen 10-15HP if I had leaned it.
This is the way I was asked to leave it as I live at 1650', the Density altitude was about 3800 as I recall & the customer lives at sea level.

This is from the GM test
DESCRIPTION: ENGINE
12498772 ZZ383/425 Crate Engine
With GM's legendary Fast Burn cylinder heads and 383 cubic inches, the ZZ383/425 delivers incredible torque with smooth, linear delivery. If you're looking for a small-block package that delivers big-block power, then you've found it. 425 horsepower at an incredibly low 5400 RPM, and 460 ft-lbs. of torque at 4500 RPM make this the ideal hot street engine or off road powerhouse.
The excellent air handling and combustion characteristics of the Fast Burn cylinder heads combined with the ZZ383/425's 3.800" stroke, make this engine the benchmark against which all other 383 inch small-blocks should be measured. And it's tough, too. The 4340 nitrided and induction hardened crank and unique forged PM rods see to that. The 9.1 to 1 compression ratio ensures that the ZZ383/425 is 92 octane pump gas friendly.
The ZZ383/425 gets a stout .509/.528 lift steel camshaft, with 222/230 duration at .050 lift. Hydraulic roller lifters and GM's time tested 1.5 to 1 roller rocker arms round out the valve train. And, of course, it has the Fast Burn head's lightweight stainless steel valves and retainers for reliable performance at extended RPM.
GM's testing was completed using a GM single plane intake, P/N 12496822 and a 750 CFM Demon carburetor with mechanical secondaries. Test header specs are: 1 3/4" primaries, 33 inches long with 4-inch collectors.
GM dual plane intake P/N 12366573 may be used for hood clearance on the ZZ383/425, but results in a decrease in peak horsepower of approximately 15-20 horsepower.
GM Crate Engines are horsepower rated to SAE Standards.
Technical Notes: ZZ 383/425 Technical Information
Horsepower 425 @ 5400 RPM
Torque 449 @ 4500 RPM
Max. Recommended RPM 6000
Compression Ratio 9.1:1

Mike, I hope this isn't too far off track. UDHarold has stated that his favorite 383 combo would have his 501C2 and maybe 195 or 210 AFR's at 10:1. Have you ever tested a similar combo? It would appear to have the makings of a stout street performer.

Mike, I hope this isn't too far off track. UDHarold has stated that his favorite 383 combo would have his 501C2 and maybe 195 or 210 AFR's at 10:1. Have you ever tested a similar combo? It would appear to have the makings of a stout street performer.
=
Hi Ken,
Well I can tell you the new AFR heads with that combo would in my opinion be one killer engine
I got this from Tony the other day on a set of heads that are coming to me for a 427 SB
It is the new Comp ported ones but the standard street version is no slouch either at 280+ ;)
=========================


Damn,, those things kick ass :)
That is just sick air for a small port. You sure you measured correctly LOL,,,
Have you gotten a chance to measure air speed in there?
What the hell is the 210 going to be like?

Thanks for the update,
Mike
707 984-6103
Cell 707 353-0990
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lewis1@willitsonline.com (lewis1@willitsonline.com)
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http://www.LewisRacingEngines.com/ (http://www.LewisRacingEngines.com/)

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----- Original Message -----

From: asmauto@xxxxxxxx

To: lewis1@willitsonline.com (lewis1@willitsonline.com)

Cc: jdow@airflowresearch.com (jdow@airflowresearch.com)

Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:14 PM

Subject: BIG Flow numbers...



Mike,


I think these are the heads for our boy in Finland....they are WO# 000xxxxx. You can confirm when you get them by checking the barcode label.


They were dropped at my R&D office for spot check flowing with a few other 195 Comps as well....a brand new product is kept a much closer eye on as they leave the door for obvious reasons.


Here are the numbers....they would have laid waste to our former 227 head at every lift point.....the old 227 would have finally tied the .600 flow number of the Comp 195 but taken till .700 to do so.


Intake


Lift.....CFM

.200...150

.300...205

.400...257

.500...293

.550...304

.600...308


Exhaust (with 1.875 flow tube)


.200...125

.300...177

.400...210

.500...230

.600...236


I believe all of these numbers handily exceed our advertised data as well.....these babies are going to ROCK!


Assuming these our Mikko's heads tell him they were worth the wait....feel free to share this information.


Cheers!!

Tony

.

Quote:"Damn,, those things kick ass
That is just sick air for a small port. You sure you measured correctly LOL,,,
Have you gotten a chance to measure air speed in there?
What the hell is the 210 going to be like?" Unquote.

We don't need no stinking 210's!!!!! I'm already saving for a set.